mudcat.org: Repeating the first verse at the end
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


Repeating the first verse at the end

Jim Carroll 13 Jun 16 - 10:56 AM
Pete from seven stars link 13 Jun 16 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,LynnH 13 Jun 16 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM
Lighter 12 Jun 16 - 02:19 PM
Lighter 12 Jun 16 - 02:18 PM
FreddyHeadey 12 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM
GUEST, DTM 12 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Jun 16 - 09:44 AM
Lighter 12 Jun 16 - 07:45 AM
Richard Mellish 12 Jun 16 - 07:35 AM
Jack Campin 12 Jun 16 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,Chris Lamb 12 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM
maeve 15 Aug 15 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Musket 15 Aug 15 - 03:08 AM
EBarnacle 14 Aug 15 - 09:08 PM
maeve 14 Aug 15 - 06:53 PM
Phil Edwards 14 Mar 14 - 05:19 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Mar 14 - 02:24 PM
The Sandman 14 Mar 14 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 01:29 PM
Brian Peters 14 Mar 14 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Phil at work 14 Mar 14 - 12:34 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM
Dave Sutherland 14 Mar 14 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 07:03 AM
Marje 14 Mar 14 - 06:07 AM
The Sandman 14 Mar 14 - 04:33 AM
The Sandman 14 Mar 14 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Andrew Murphy 13 Mar 14 - 07:46 PM
Phil Edwards 13 Mar 14 - 07:43 PM
JHW 13 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM
The Sandman 13 Mar 14 - 05:54 PM
JohnInKansas 13 Mar 14 - 05:19 PM
johncharles 13 Mar 14 - 04:39 PM
The Sandman 13 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM
johncharles 13 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 14 - 02:43 PM
The Sandman 13 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM
The Sandman 13 Mar 14 - 01:40 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM
johncharles 13 Mar 14 - 09:14 AM
Allan C. 13 Mar 14 - 08:59 AM
johncharles 13 Mar 14 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Mar 14 - 08:18 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 10:56 AM

"I have memories of trying to sing 'Fathom the Bowl' a tad quicker and with a bit more 'swing' than everybody else. "
It's like trying to run through a pool of water, isn't it?
Peggy Seeger used to get up people's noses by stopping and teaching the chorus - that's why I fell in love with her!
Speaking the last line is a newish Irish affectation - never came across an older singer who did it.
No harm in that - I do it myself regularly - it can help to break the tension for the next song, but I don't think it does much to help the one you're finishing.
One old storyteller/singer we recorded used to finish each song and story by banging his stick on the floor and saying "now"
Fine when we recorded him in the local stone-flagged shop-cum-bar, but didn't do the floor of our Mini much goos - we were never able to record him in his home for various reasons,   
"if you are an unpaid singer "
I would hope you would do this whether you were paid or unpaid Pete - when you sing you are a creative or interpretive artist, not a juke box.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 09:39 AM

I notice that a lot of singers say thank you as they finish . Maybe that is gratitude that they have listened ( sometimes doubtful !) or as invitation to give em a clap !    As others have noted, if you are an unpaid singer , you do it just as you think fit. Hopefully, if your contribution was appreciated someone will say so later, even if they were confused as to the song ending.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 13 Jun 16 - 04:09 AM

@Chris Lamb: You could try doing what some of the old singers used to do - instead of singing the last line or phrase you speak it. How much emphasis you give the spoken line depends upon the song in question.

Apart from that, you're the singer and how you choose to sing the song is your affair. If the audience apparently suffers from closed mind syndrome......that's their problem!

@Jim: I have memories of trying to sing 'Fathom the Bowl' a tad quicker and with a bit more 'swing' than everybody else. When I got to the chorus it was like running into a sand drag or moving from firm ground to loose gravel - the audience stood on the brakes with a vengeance!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 03:14 PM

"Jim, haven't you heard the version, quite popular in fact, that features new verses as well"
I have - I even know one of the people who added to the song, I think they add nothing to it whatever, on the contrary, thy blunt its impact for me.
My opinion, of course.
On another aspect of audience interference.
We spent twenty years visiting Walter Pardon, England's last big repertoire traditional singer.
Waalter actually dropped two of his favourite songs (Old Brown's Daughter and Dark Eyed Sailor) from his public repertoire because of various audiences' practice of slowing down the last line of the choruses, leaving hi to stumble his way through the versions he grew up with as best he could.
Some audiences simply don't listen to what the singers are singers, so involved are they in what they are doing - that's simple bad manners.
Don't get me started about eejits who join in the verses uninvited - open season material or what?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:19 PM

> until somebody goes and ruins it by repeating the first verse

Jim, haven't you heard the version, quite popular in fact, that features new verses as well?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 02:18 PM

> until somebody goes and ruins it by repeating the first verse

Jim, haven't you heard the version, quite popular in fact, that features new verses as well?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 11:09 AM

Chris Lamb "..indicate by the manner of my delivery that the song has ended, for example by increasing the volume..."

Yes, or lengthening of the last note(not sure about vibrato though, personally) or a nod of the head, / smile...

It's quite embarrassing as an an audience member when I don't know if the song has ended. It's good to get a clear indication.
I actually like it when there is a second of silence at the end of a piece. I really hate people clapping in the final moments of the song. I want the silence to be part of the performance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: GUEST, DTM
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 10:51 AM

My take on all of this.
When you sing a song you're giving your own interpretation of it. This can be varied from the "original" in structure, tempo, style, emotion, etc.
All that really matters is that you sing it how you feel it. (Unless of course you are getting paid to perform it in a certain way and therefore by not doing so, you shortchange your customers.)

As for repeating the first verse, I have no problems with that as it can be used with effect as a bookend to the story.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 09:44 AM

I sympathise totally with Guest, Chris Lamb - no - you should never be forced into doing what you don't feel necessary by audience pressure - I always remember Billy Connolly's stopping one of his audiences foot stamping by asking them if they were "trying out your new wellies?
One of the worst examples, to my mind, of the unnecessary repeating of a verse is when it happens in, 'Will ye Go Tae Flanders' a beautifully succinctly tragic children's song which says it all in two verses - until somebody goes and ruins it by repeating the first verse - what an anti-climax.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:45 AM

The "folk" are the final arbiters.

In this case, regrettably.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 07:35 AM

GUEST,Chris Lamb's post fills me with horror. If a singer is now expected to repeat the first verse at the end, regardless of the sense and of that singer's personal preference, heaven help us!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 06:03 AM

This is where singing from a book helps. You don't need to look at it (it might as well have blank pages or be open at a different song), but closing it and putting it down says you've got to the end.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: GUEST,Chris Lamb
Date: 12 Jun 16 - 05:34 AM

Apologies for reviving a thread that's died a natural death but I just found it when seeking guidance on the practice of repeating the first verse of a song. As an inexperienced singer who occasionally sings at singarounds and pub sessions, I was a bit miffed when my rendering of The Sheep Stealer in a Dorset pub last year was greeted with dead silence instead of the usual polite applause. It turned out that they were all waiting for me to repeat the first verse, which local singers apparently do. The same thing happened at another session, also in Dorset, this weekend, so it's clearly a widespread custom in the area. Is it done simply because it's a short song that singers feel they need to extend, I wonder?

It seems to me that the song builds to a natural climax in a powerful cry of defiance, "I'll swear all I have is my own, my brave boys, I'll swear all I have is my own", and that repeating the first verse is anti-climatic and weakens the song's effect. So should I bow to local custom or should I persist in finishing the song without a repeat? If I do the latter, should I announce before starting that I will not be repeating the first verse? Or should I endeavour to indicate by the manner of my delivery that the song has ended, for example by increasing the volume, or by drawing out the final phrase with a vibrato? And will listeners accustomed to hearing a repeated first verse pick up those clues?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: maeve
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 05:33 AM

This thread was refreshed for someone who was asking- it's been talked to death for me, but others may have cogent thoughts regarding the subject.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 15 Aug 15 - 03:08 AM

I suppose it is a musical feature that has spread over a couple of hundred years so is in itself a tradition, even if you apply it to a new song.

Some friends perform an excellent version of Schooldays Over, MacColl and Seeger's wonderful song from the radio ballad The Big Hewer. It has three verses to reflect the three coalfields visited. So when they repeat the first verse it doesn't seem right to me. I like their rendition but the repeat bit? Works for some songs better than others, obviously.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 09:08 PM

I generally sing the last verse of Mary L Mackay at the start and then repeat it slowly at the end. It seems to put a good cap to the ballad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: maeve
Date: 14 Aug 15 - 06:53 PM

Refresh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 05:19 PM

Re Tom Padget, I've dug out the 18th-century broadside referred to by Steve Gardham & transcribed it in the other thread. I'd say there are about four lines of it in Tom Padget; the 'story' element isn't there at all & must have come from somewhere else.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:24 PM

Last verse can also repeat first, but with slight variation to remind of developments in the narrative: an eg from way I sing it -- first verse, "He courted Rosie Anderson, A lady into Perth"; last verse, "He's married Rosie Anderson..."

& last verse of Butter&Cheese&All ~~ "So now you called on me for a song, & I've showed what I could do, & now that I have finished it..."

~M~


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:53 PM

Brya Blanchard was a good singer and a mainstay of the sussex folk scene in the 70s and 80s.
returning to te version i sing of matty groves, which starts, a holiday a holiday the first one of the year, lord donalds wife went to church the gospel for to hear. if that is repeated it does detract from the dramatic ending, but it takes the listener back to reflect on the story ,so its not nonsense, i do not repeat the first verse normally,but have no problem with others repeating it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:29 PM

"Have you got the words for that one?"
I have just hand-written them out - I'll put them up when I've translated them into English!
I'm pretty certain it appeared on the Topic Cinnamond album under the Title, 'The Beggarman'
There's also a text in Jackie Boyce's 'Songs of County Down; Jackie says he got it from the singing of Len Graham, who in turn got it from Packie Russell, as we did - though it lacks the sexual boast verse that Packie gave us.
The broadside suggestion makes sense, but I have been unable to find any reference to it - will try the 'Word From the Street' site again later.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:06 PM

There's already been a lengthy thread on Tom Paget, including much discussion of the precise meaning of 'doldrums', interventions from Bryan Blanchard's daughter, Jon Boden, and Steve Gardham - who mentioned having seen some bawdy broadside versions.

I've an idea that Bryan ended up in East Anglia, since I remember him booking me for a one-day event down there and remarking in the programme that I'd been influenced by Harry Boardman - who he admired very much. If I remember rightly, he was also one of that rare, talented and possibly schizophrenic breed who can play both English and Anglo concertina.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 12:34 PM

Hi Jim,

It was Spiers and Boden's version I was listening to. I don't much like what they do to either the tune or the words (bowdlerising the 'small furrow' line), but it served the purpose of reminding me of the straight unaccompanied version Jon Boden did as part of A Folk Song A Day, which was a lot better.

Interesting that it's unattested in tradition apart from the Robert Cinnamond "Beggarman" (Round 3080), which sounds fairly different. Have you got the words for that one?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 09:51 AM

Incidentally, I've just managed to dig out Robert Cinnamond's version of this song; as with Packie Russell's, it does not have a repeated verse at the end, nor is it particularly bawdy, so unless there is another version of it we can't find, the one that was sung around the clubs was an entirely 'revival' creation - no harm in that, just a confirmation that the repeated line has nothing to do with how it was sung in the tradition.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

"Jim, Louis Killen also learned "Tom Padgett" from Brian Blanchard."
Thanks for that Dave - pardon my ignorance; the name rings a bell, but could someone remind me who Brain Blanchard is/was - something to do with Horsham Folk Club if my memory serves me correctly.
I've just Googled a version of the song by Spiers and Boden - a reminder, if I needed one, of how a narrative ballad should most definitely NOT be sung (to almost borrow a phrase Martin Carthy used for a radio programme on 'The Critics Group')
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

"Jim, Louis Killen also learned "Tom Padgett" from Brian Blanchard."
Thanks for that Dave - pardon my ignorance; the name rings a bell, but could someone remind me who Brain Blanchard is/was - something to do with Horsham Folk Club if my memory serves me correctly.
I've just Googled a version of the song by Spiers and Boden - a reminder, if I needed one, of how a narrative ballad should most definitely NOT be sung (to almost borrow a phrase Martin Carthy used for a radio programme on 'The Critics Group')
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 08:39 AM

In my case GSS it is "As it befell one Holy Day, as many do in the year, Little Musgrave to the church did go, to see fair ladies there";
I don't think that it detracts from the dramatic/climatic previous two verses but simply rounds off the song with a reminder that from Musgraves initial (almost)innocent intentions such carnage ensued.
Jim, Louis Killen also learned "Tom Padgett" from Brian Blanchard.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 07:03 AM

"The main thing is that the singer should have a considered reason for repeating a verse,"
Would go along with this totally - it makes perfect sense.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Marje
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 06:07 AM

It's pointless to be too dogmatic about this. There are many songs - including narrative songs - in which the first verse is is simply a scene-setting or introduction. It may tell us something about the motives or inclinations of the narrator or other character or the times they lived in. Repeating it at the end can add another layer of meaning, because now that the story has been told, the things mentioned in the first verse can be better understood and reflected on. As I said earlier, this device is used for deliberate effect in some lyric poetry.

No one is saying you have to do it. But to say it should never happen is as foolish as saying you should never have a chorus or refrain (why, logically, would you choose to keep interrupting the story to keep saying the same thing over and over?).

The main thing is that the singer should have a considered reason for repeating a verse, rather than just copying a recording artist who needed to extend the song by another 30 seconds or so.

Marje


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:33 AM

out of curiosity ,JHW, which version of little musgrave do you sing, and which lyrics do you repeat, i think a repeat" of a holiday a holiday the first one of the year, lord donalds wife went to church the gospel for to hear" could work, its like an exclamation mark and quickly reflect back on story., but on the other hand it reduces the dramatic effect of the last verse, but its not a nonsense.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:15 AM

exactly, andrew murphy, about performance and people enjoying themselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:14 AM

John,
It really isn't a case of preserving the songs without change - nobody has suggested that for one minute; it is a matter of making sense of them.
It does not make sense - not to me anyway - to repeat the first verse of a narrative song when you have come to the end of the story - it is building in an anti-climax.
It can possibly work with non-narrative songs, but even there it is unnecessary if the song is satisfyingly long enough.
Somebody has already suggested that the reason it happens is that the songs are not long enough - I might go with that for one with only a couple of verses, but short songs are usually short for a creative purpose unless you have an incomplete text, than repeating a verse doesn't make a happorth of difference.
I joined this discussion to point out that it seldom, if ever, happened in the tradition - among the thousand-odd songs we recorded from field singers I can't recall a single case of it happening.
As far as I can see, it is a revival practice; a theatrical device for a massed audience.
I neither approve or disapprove of it, I just find it unnecessary.
Hi Phil
Not sure how this fits into the topic - hope we're not treading on too many toes here.
What recording were you listening to?
I've been researching this song over the last few weeks.
The only version from Clare is the one we recorded from Packie Russell, the old concertina player from Doolin, in North Clare - he didn't have a complete set of it.
I yesterday had a note from Roy Harris who confirmed that he learned his version from Brian Blanchard.
Tho only versions from oral tradition I could trace were Packie's and one from Robert Cinnamond of Gleneavy in County Antrim - I have no idea where Brian Blanchard's Harry Boardman's or Lois Killen's came from.
This is the note I finally decided on for the website.

Tom Tadger (Roud 3080) Packie Russell
While this is sung by several of the younger generation of singers in England and Ireland, there are very few examples of it having been found in the old oral traditions.
In 1955 the BBC recorded a version from Robert Cinnamond of Glenavy, County Antrim with the title 'The Beggarman of County Down', apart from this, there are no references to the song from a source singer, either recorded or in print, though there are similarities to other songs of an amorous itinerant; see: 'Donnelly' (Roud 836), versions of which we recorded in Miltown Malbay, Fanore, and from Tipperary Travelling woman Mary Delaney. Packie told us he believed the song to be connected to the 1798 uprising in Mayo, when the French sent a fleet to assist the struggle for independence; he thought it to be an allegorical reference to inviting strangers into your home. There is little, if any information to confirm this, but it's an interesting thought.
This was how the song was sung around the folk clubs in Manchester in the mid 1960s; from the singing of the late Harry Boardman:

Tom Padgett
Of all the trades going it's in the begging I take great delight.
For my rent it is paid as I lay down my bags for the night.
And my rent it is paid as I take a long stick in my hand.
And at night I will please the fair maidens as best as I can.

Oh, I walked the long day 'til I came to some rich farmer's house;
and I knocked on the door like some poor fool left lately without -
without eating or drinking, for twenty long hours or more.
And I said, 'Kind madam, will you pray for and remember the poor?'

'If it's alms that you want, you shall get them old man,' she said.
But before she gave pennies, she ran to her mother upstairs.
'Oh mammy, oh mammy! There is a strange man in the hall!
Stay close to your chamber, for I fear he will ravish us all!'

But her mother did scuff her, and call her a silly young fool.
To have any such notion, about that poor man in the hall.
For his clothes were in tatters, and his britches torn behind and before.
And his doldrums (sic?) hung down a good fourteen long inches or more.

'Oh Tom Padget,' she said, 'Why don't you go and work for your bread?
For some rich farmer and be decently clothed and fed.'
'To plough and sow madam, I'm afraid I have but little skill.
But I'll plough that small furrow that lies at the foot of your hill.'

'Oh Tom Padget!' she said, 'Now if you and I could but agree;
I would make you the steward, of all of my lands for to be.
And we'd eat at one table, and we'd sleep on a soft bed of down.
If only I could have you, Tom Padget of Killaloe town.'

And of all the trades going it's in the begging I take great delight.
For my rent it is paid as I lay down my bags for the night.
And my rent it is paid as I take a long stick in my hand.
And at night I will please the fair maidens as best as I can.
Cap'n
This really is the last thing I have to say to you - I will not be part of your vandalising any more threads with your nasty, small-minded vendettas.
I think it was you who mentioned kettles being called black.
We all contribute to these threads to the best of our abilities and try to make up for our ignorance and our shortcomings the best we can.
I'm sure you realise this far better than most people - over and out.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: GUEST,Andrew Murphy
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 07:46 PM

I always repeat the first verse of Peggy Gordon for a last join in verse, everyone knows the fiirst verse and everyone loves to sing it!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 07:43 PM

Just listening to a recording of Tom Padget, which I think benefits from repeating the first verse at the end (I hardly ever do this with any other songs). I'd be interested in Jim's thoughts on this one, as I understand the song was collected in his home town (earlier thread).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: JHW
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM

'I have always repeated the first verse at the end of "Little Musgrave"'

I admit to that too and would like several Rosie Andersons taken into consideration


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 05:54 PM

The initial comment seemed to be from the perspective of an audience member wondering why verses were repeated"
as a performer i have attempted to answer that,here we go again, on occasions when it has been a non narrative song, such as the candlight fisherman ,or april morning or a shanty, and i have noticed the audience is joining in choruses, i have used it in effect like an extra chorus, there is nothing moronic about this, it is about noticing the audience are having a good time joining in and trying to keep the audience in that mood, simple really its not rocket science.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 05:19 PM

Being a little less ardent in my devotion to folk songs, I'll say that some of them are so long I might have forgotten what they were about by the time they're ready to be ended. A reminder at the end could be helpful for those like me. ... (?)

In elementary "How to Make a Speech" classes, it is often taught that you should always use three steps:

1. Tell 'em what you're going to tell 'em.

2. Tell 'em.

3. Tell 'em what you told 'em.

The repeated first verse might be an attempt at following something similar to this practice, although the more modern classes say "don't tell 'em anything. Just make 'em want to buy it."

John


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: johncharles
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:39 PM

Discussions seem to end up in arguments because people insist on comparing apples with pears.
From an academic point of view you would want to preserve the songs in as original form as possible. ( not always the case with some of the collectors though.)
When it comes to performers they are not bound by the same academic conventions and many will alter songs in a variety of ways to meet their own needs.
The initial comment seemed to be from the perspective of an audience member wondering why verses were repeated. The only way to be certain is to ask the performer. If it is someone known to you it might even be possible to suggest that it detracts rather than adds to the song if that is how you feel.
A search of the web looking for alternative versions of songs may even be able to ascertain whether repeats have crept in and who/when why it started. I have neither the inclination nor the time ( got a gig on Saturday to practice for) to pursue this option.
John


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM

Jim if you insult someone, calling someone a moron is an insult, you will get an adverse reaction, you have also used racist sterotyping. for your information I have a life,
i am not communicting from the spirit world, i am pleased to say have spent very little time on the computer with your nastiness, bad manners and pomposity, i have spent my time painting the windows of my house[ the sun has been shining in this part of ireland] and playing a bit of music, you need to get some manners.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM

"I must be getting old I find urban slang very distasteful"
Sorry John (I assume you're referring to my outburst)
My apologies - I really am trying my best here - must try harder.
Never thought it as 'urban" though - very popular here in rural Ireland
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: johncharles
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

I must be getting old I find urban slang very distasteful


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 02:43 PM

"and since when are you an expert on singing?."
I've requested that you stop nausing up these discussions with your nastiness - you obviously have no intention of doing
Get a life Dick
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 02:03 PM

Nostalgic, though not great singing."
Jim Carroll
and since when are you an expert on singing?.
100


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 01:40 PM

as usual,jim carroll attempts to muddy the waters. Brian was refrring to the recorded versions of the singing at the Blaxhall ship, In which wickets richardson kept order and folk songs were sung and people joined in,
as usual, you brought in a red herring,, what you think happened before[were you there?], in an attempt to muddle things up.
Jim, stick to collecting your museum pieces, that you can safely label like a collector of dead butterflies, and let people, who know something about the performance of folk music, discuss it,amicably, amicably, means not calling someone a moron,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM

"Boys! Boys! Can we get back on topic, please?"
With respect Alan, nobody is debating what folk music is (at least not seriously). Rather, this is about what has happened to folk music in the hands of today's singers.
Verse repeats are only part of what has happened, in my opinion - but I am happy to abide by the referees rules.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: johncharles
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 09:14 AM

Ultimately I guess it is down to the singer what to sing and how they wish to sing it. There may be a trend for repeating verses but it is not something I have personally noted.
john


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Allan C.
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 08:59 AM

Boys! Boys! Can we get back on topic, please? You should know by now that there is no sense in debating, "What is folk music?" all over again. But should you choose to do so, pick a different venue, if you please.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: johncharles
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 08:35 AM

I haven't seen the film I was listening to recordings from the British sound archive. Summers recordings are the only ones available for public listening. Others were recorded at the ship but are only accessible through subscribing organisations e.g. universities. This is a bugbear of mine and the British library which we fund needs to overcome the copyright issues and make them all freely accessible.
john


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 08:18 AM

The later sessions at The Ship were very much folkie orientated, from a film that was made about it in the 70s, it had little to do with what had previously taken place there.
A far better impression of what took place can be got from 'Here's a Health to the Barley Mow' filmed in the 1950s.
It has just three songs and a couple of melodeon tunes on it; Barley Mow (Arthur Smith), Nutting Girl (Cyril Poacher), General Wolfe (Bod Scarce) and playing by Fred Pears and Bob Roberts.
Nostalgic, though not great singing.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Repeating the first verse at the end
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Mar 14 - 08:17 AM

It's great that we all have our own personal opinions, John. Personally I'm extrememly grateful the film exists and would have given my right arm to have met these people and hear them sing live.
The version of Fagan the Cobbler with all the actions is one of my all-time favourites and I'd rather witness that on film than anything we can produce today.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 6 August 3:24 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.