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BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland

GUEST,Musket 31 Jan 14 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Eliza 31 Jan 14 - 06:02 AM
Jim McLean 31 Jan 14 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 30 Jan 14 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 30 Jan 14 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 30 Jan 14 - 07:02 PM
Raedwulf 30 Jan 14 - 10:17 AM
Stu 29 Jan 14 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Musket 29 Jan 14 - 12:40 PM
Jim McLean 29 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM
Stu 29 Jan 14 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM
Raedwulf 28 Jan 14 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 Jan 14 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Musket 28 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM
Stu 28 Jan 14 - 01:00 PM
Jim McLean 28 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM
Stu 28 Jan 14 - 09:35 AM
Jim McLean 28 Jan 14 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 Jan 14 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Jan 14 - 07:15 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 28 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM
Stu 28 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM
akenaton 28 Jan 14 - 04:42 AM
Jim McLean 28 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,Eliza 28 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 Jan 14 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 28 Jan 14 - 02:58 AM
GUEST,Triplane 27 Jan 14 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Musket 27 Jan 14 - 01:07 PM
Stu 27 Jan 14 - 12:54 PM
GUEST, topsie 27 Jan 14 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Eliza 27 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM
GUEST, topsie 27 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM
GUEST,Eliza 27 Jan 14 - 05:43 AM
akenaton 26 Jan 14 - 06:40 PM
akenaton 26 Jan 14 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM
Raedwulf 26 Jan 14 - 02:12 PM
Jim McLean 26 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Allan Conn 26 Jan 14 - 10:53 AM
Jim McLean 26 Jan 14 - 10:03 AM
Lighter 26 Jan 14 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,topsie 26 Jan 14 - 06:24 AM
Jim McLean 26 Jan 14 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,Eliza 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM
GUEST, topsie 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 08:31 AM

Allan and Jim

Having never seen Braveheart nor tried to understand the economic model of tourist tartan, I just wish to add something that is nothing to do with Scotland. Let me tell you something about England.

BP are buying up land alongside the old Tyneside shipyards. I doubt they will try doing anything with it just yet and in September may even put it back on the market.

Just thought I'd mention it.

I don't own any properties in Aberdeen myself, but there may be an outside chance that if reason goes out of the window later this year, some nice sturdy granite properties may come down to a reasonable price.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 06:02 AM

Have just had an email from my sister inviting me 'up there' in August! We're going to stay in her daughter's Edinburgh flat for 3 nights and poss see some of the Festival, then off to her village near Perth. She's a bit of a gourmet and we'll be eating out at some superb places. Sadly I can't do steep mountain walks any more, but we'll have a good time. Direct flights from Norwich to Edinburgh. What could be easier?
Yippeeeeeee!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 Jan 14 - 04:47 AM

Yes, Allan, obtaining facts before comment is the best way to go. I remember when the film Braveheart came out, everybody I met (I live in London) were experts in 13/14th century Scottish history. Now they are all economic experts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:20 PM

http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn135.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now as to the oil is running out well sorry but for one thing we've heard it all before and for a second thing the demise of North Sea oil is much disputed. But either way independent or part of the UK it would hit Scotland if it did dry up. For years we've had moaning from English Tories about spending in Scotland and there is already calls for a scrapping of Barnett and reduction in the level of Scottish spending compared with England. What has held the wolves off has been the strength of the SNP in Scotland, the threat of a referendum, and the fact that we do actually more than pay our way! I for one don't believe for one moment that Scottish spending would be safeguarded should we not pay our way and I wouldn't expect it to be. Sorry but if North Sea oil revenue went through the floor then Scotland would be hit part of the UK or not!

Sorry don't mean to multi post but couldn't get this to go as one big post


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:16 PM

As to the influence bit again I point out that the system is flawed however in reality the Scottish votes have only been a theoretical imbalance in favour of any UK gvt making no difference to actual results in all but a couple of occasions at most and it follows on from existing practice which was already in place re Northern Ireland members. Whilst a unionist Labour Scottish gvt passed over 60 devolved issues to its Labour partners at Westminster through the Sewel Motions letting all UK MPs, and only UK MPs, vote on Scottish issues which were actually supposed to be devolved matters.

As to the funding well sorry but if you stay away from Tory rags and actually look at the official figures you'll see that when Scotland's natural resources are taken into account we more than pay our way and have consistently done so for decades. The figures are not massive now but they were enormous in the 1980s. The detailed figures are published annually in the GERS report which can be easily found on the Scottish gvt website. I've put up a blue clicky from the BBC site showing how Scotland's economic position stands. Public spending is £12,100 per person which is £1200 more than the UK as a whole – however GDP of £26,424 per person which is over £4000 more than the UK as a whole is. Likewise I have attached a blue clicky from the Institute of Fiscal Studies and again here is a cut and paste – and I have deliberately kept away from Nationalist publications here


"Over recent years, tax revenues from the North Sea, if allocated on a geographic basis, would have slightly more than paid for the additional public spending per head that currently occurs in Scotland relative to the UK as a whole"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 07:02 PM

Sorry but you can't just dismiss someone as "one eyed" just because he disagrees with points you put and puts very relevant point back to you. I stand by all my points. Why should I be described as a one eyed nationalist and you not a one eyed unionist? Isn't it better to keep away from insults and stick to debating the points?

As to the first thing. I simply pointed out that Scotland had been campaigning for devolution for about the last century. That is true – not propaganda! Sometimes it was less to the fore but sometimes it was very much to the fore. For instance just a few years after the end of WWII an estimated 2 million signatures were collected on the Scottish Covenant calling for a devolved body. Even if the figures are exaggerated it is clear that there was a massive call for it – which Westminster simply ignored. Are you really suggesting that if a comparable 20 million signatures were collected in England for an English parliament that it would not be quickly delivered? Sheer demographics ensure that it would be. Blue clicky at bottom gives BBC link though I have cut and pasted the relevant paragraph. Though you only need to read any modern Scottish history book!

"In 1947 a Scottish Convention was formed with the hope of securing a parliament for Scotland along non-party lines. Two years later, using the idea of the Presbyterian 'solemn league and covenant', it drew up the Scottish Covenant, which was eventually signed by two million people. However, it made little impact as all the Westminster parties still kept devolution off the main parliamentary agenda leaving the Covenant movement with nowhere to go."

a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/devolution/scotland/briefing/c20scot.shtml">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/devolution/scotland/briefing/c20scot.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jan 14 - 10:17 AM

Allan - maybe you don't intend to, but you make yourself sound like the sort of one-eyed SNP adherent that puts everyone else off (Scots, English, etc!).

Perhaps Scotland wasn't "just" offered a parliament; I'm not keenly interested enough to investigate how much genuine desire for such things has ever been (& not daft enough to accept any propagandists claim sight unseen). But, by your lights, were the Welsh ever "offered" a parliament? The point is that the three other divisions of the UK *now* all have some sort of say over their own affairs; England doesn't. So Scotland already has a degree of autonomy, along with Wales & NI. Poor ol' bloody England just has to put up with what Westminster decides.

Pie - again, you have missed my point. Of course Parliament isn't an English pie; I never suggested it was. But Scotland has some influence over what Scotland decides because it is devolved. And Scotland has some influence over what the UK decides, because Scottish MPs sit in Parliament. But Scotland also has some influence over what is decided for England, by right of those Scottish MPs.

England has NO direct influence over what is decided for England, because we have no direct voice. England only exercises, now, an indirect influence over what happens in Scotland through the same route that you do; Parliament. I don't think demographic has anything to do with it. There have been calls for an English Holyrood. But it's not in the interests of any party to pay it any attention, and people are largely, I believe, disaffected from politics. Whatever the underlying reasons, the Scots have rather more influence over English affairs than the English do over Scots.

As for the subsidy question, feel free to enlighten me, because I confess myself largely ignorant. However, the one thing that has been repeated down the years has been "North Sea Oil". Well, that's running down these days, so you might find yourselves in trouble if you're relying on that. Besides, when the SNP try to claim continental shelves etc, would you like to remember who paid all the development costs for exploration, for infrastructure, etc? It wasn't Scotland. It was private enterprise or the UK. So why do SNP-types suddenly think they've a claim on a cut of the remaining profits without bearing any of the costs that were / are / will be involved?

Ah. That'll be the same piece of nationalistic chicanery that says "retaining monetary union would be terrific". For Scotland maybe. Not for the UK. It's a sad fact of life that London and, by extension the South-East, subsidises the rest of the UK. Scotland included.

Like I said, you won't sink & neither will we. I just think that the sum is greater than the parts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 02:54 PM

Ack! My long-winded reply disappeared into the ether. The footy thing was a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 12:40 PM

UK referendum. Should we negotiate fiscal union with a foreign power?

You could apply that to Euro or Haggis Vouchers. I doubt the answer has altered over the years.

Oh, and I was very pro Euro when in business. Still am, but that's irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM

I also listed/watched the Carney speech and later his press conference. He was quite clear about staying out of the political debate and that he was only discussing the technicalities of a currency union. I agree with Stu that an dependent currency is the best option but I think pragmatically, like Ireland and Australia who stayed with Sterling for about 40 years, that Sterling is the best bet in the short term. This will have to mean compromise, but a NEGOTIATED compromise. Interestingly Carney had just sat down when Alistair Darling tweeted "Salmond's pound is dead". How's that for a reasonable response to Carney's honest crafted speech.
And as far as Stu's nationalistic attitude on choosing football managers .. there seems to be a dearth of English ones and lots of Scots, French, Italian .... I also have no time for the 90 minute nationalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jan 14 - 09:39 AM

I've been listening to Mark Carney talking about monetary union between the rest of the UK and Scotland should the Scots vote for independence. All the usual bean counter fluff, but it raises an interesting point.

Surely Scotland can only have true independence by having it's own currency? If Salmond has his way Scotland will still have to kowtow to the Bank of England (bound to induce the howling fantods in those north of the border who hate any association with England) and which, due to the nature of a common currency might mean Scotland will have less control over it's economy in some situations than it would like, for example if it needed to devalue it might not be able to because the interests of other countries need to be taken in account (ask the Greeks how that feels).

This would of course lead to cries of "foul!" amongst those who believe they might be being oppressed once more by the "auld enemy", but who willingly signed up to the arrangement.

Would Scotland not be better off biting the bullet and establishing their own currency from the outset? This would give Scotland true autonomy and cement it's status as an independent nation.

Also, there would need to be a cross-border agreement to stop Scottish managers working in the Premier League as it seems they have been sent down to bugger up the English national team (as my Mum is Welsh meaning the good half of me is, I support Wales in the rugby so don't give a stuff about that).


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM

"Unprecedented degree of autonomy"

Actually the UK of GB&NI has been a devolved state basically from its inception. Stormont was only suspended because of The Troubles.

"no-one has offered the English a regional parliament"

Scotland wasn't just offered a parliament! It was campaigned for on and off for over a century and a massive public call for it in the mid 20thC was simply ignored. If there was the same call for devolution within England then it would be quickly provided in comparison. Sheer demographic ensure that.

"all the Scots MPs in Westminster - you have more influence over decisions that affect just us than we have over decisions that affect just you"

For a start Westminster is not your pie! It is the UK parliament. The devolution settlement is half arsed and incomplete but it has to be kept in perspective. First I have to mention that the SNP (ie the main party calling for independence) do not actually vote on so called English only matters anyway! Secondly it is only in general a theoretical imbalance as Scottish votes have only made a difference on a couple of occassions at most. In fact with over 60 Sewel Motions carried out by unionist parties since devolution started the imbalance has still been the other way round. Over 60 pieces of supposed devolved legislation which were voted on by MPs at westmisnter rather than MSPs at Holyrood. Thirdly again this situation has been the case since the UK in its present form was created. Northern Irish MPs always voted on Scottish, English and Welsh matters. Why was there never a West Belfast Question? It seems the English Tories never minded non-English people voting on their English matters especially when the MPs in question were Ulster Unionits who largely sided with the Tories - they only took exception to Scots doing the same who of course tend to be anti-Tory

As to the subsidising thing. Come on catch up with the debate. Even the UK gvt itself no longer tries to claim Scotland is subsidised. For almost the past half century it has been the other way round!


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:53 PM

Expanding on my previous remark, I am sure that there are many in Scotland, and many Scots outside (such as that loud and notorious tax-dodger, Mr Connery) who think Scotland would be better off voting Yes. If what Salmond is promising appeals to you (& you actually believe he is both willing & capable of delivering it); if you have some particular interest (such as being against nuclear weapons), then I can easily see why the notion appeals to you.

On the other hand, you already have an unprecedented degree of autonomy within the UK (no-one has offered the English a regional parliament). You still have a hand in our pie (all the Scots MPs in Westminster - you have more influence over decisions that affect just us than we have over decisions that affect just you). This slimy notion promoted by the SNP that you can pick & choose which bits you declare independence on & keep the bits that suit you best (i.e. the bits that the remaining UK presumably end up subsiding you on), such as the BoE, really? Either go the whole hog, or say No.

Details aside; I've taken little interest in the debate as a whole since I have no voice in it, so I can't really say much; I just think it's a bad idea. Scotland isn't going to sink without trace if it declares full independence; neither is England. I just think that, on the whole, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. We would all be better off in a still united UK, rather than fragmenting.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM

Mind setting aside the referendum polls this week, which were good news for the SNP,they must be over the moon with the polls in regard to voting intentions in the forthcoming European elections. With 43% of the poll they are only 1% below the combined share of the vote for Labour (24%) the Conservatives (14%) and the Lib Dems (6%) who have only 44% between the lot of them. Mid way through a second term in office that is pretty astonishing!


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:38 PM

"I can't help wondering if those lining up behind SNP on the "independent" ticket would agree with his actual policies"

The vote is not about one party's domestic Scottish policies or about one politician's policies. It is about the future of the country. If Scotland voted YES - and let's face it that is still a big if even with the latest poll showing a real narrowing in the race - then sometime shortly afterwards the Nats would be going to the country. It is perfectly possible that the first full term Scottish gvt could be something other than an SNP gvt.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM

Normally I would say I have no dog in this race but I do. I am an invester in the Scottish economy but quite rightly not given a vote on this referendum.

However, if half the claims of Salmond & co had a basis, logic would dictate the rest of The UK would have a say too, as you can't invent GDP (you can bullshit it mind) and for every action there is a reaction.

I think the parish pump in Leith is about as good as it gets. However, I can't help wondering if those lining up behind SNP on the "independent" ticket would agree with his actual policies.

Be careful when waking up in a bed you got into with a hard on.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 01:00 PM

Ah well. I suppose it is none of my business in a way, being English and all that.

I still love the place, and can't wait to get back (though not to that racist git's shop in Edinburgh).


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM

I wonder if Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia would have achieved independence if the whole of Russia had been allowed to vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM

"The idea we are three radically different peoples is complete twaddle"

Stu I don't think anybody suggested we were "radically different" though. Certainly I didn't.

"Scotland doesn't own The Bank of England, The UK does. Nobody is offering a referendum over breaking up The UK."

Musket the UK owns the bank of England and an indepent Scotland would of course expect its share of UK assets as well as its share of UK national debt. Nobody is ending the UK. The vote is about Scotland deciding whether to leave or not. The principle of self determination is going on here. A UK wide referendum on whether Scotland could leave or not would not be self determination as 9 out of 10 Brits don't live in Scotland.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 09:35 AM

I'm not on the yes or no side, although as I said in my previous post if I lived in Scotland I'd vote yes. However, I think it will divide the working people of our island, possibly forever. When they closed the furnaces at Ravenscraig there were plenty of us mourning the death of an island-wide steel industry, now that concern will matter less.

As for democracy, we don't have accountability at local or national level, and there is no popular mandate for the current lot. We live in a society run by economists and shills for big business and the establishment; it's never gone away and will entrench itself even further after independence. Salmond is like the rest of them as he's shown on numerous occasions.

Odd you have to be on one side or the other though isn't it? Absolutism all the way.


"And many people wouldn't share that opinion instead seeing us as three peoples under one flag."

No doubt they wouldn't, but so what? The idea we are three radically different peoples is complete twaddle. My mum's Welsh (with a brilliantly rum Scottish ancestor) with rumours of other Scots I haven't traced yet, my dad is English with a dose of Huguenot and Gypsy and like most people on these islands I'm a lovely big mix. Three peoples? One mix of many peoples.

I'm not arguing about retaining our regional differences (of course we should) as they are about identity and diversity and are massively important. I simply don't see any long-term winners in this situation. Mind you, you could argue that the same would be true if Scotland says no, so there you go.

Our ancestors lived on these islands without any borders, they were one land. We are their descendants and we are one people.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 08:02 AM

Stu, you are confusing nationalism with democracy. There is no hatred of the English or anybody else in the argument for Scottish Independence, all the bile and anger like your own seems to becoming from the NO side. I can only emphasise that it is the inhabitants, the tax payers, of Scotland who will be voting and although obviously most are Scottish, there are many different nationalities who will be voting YES. The colour of the Westminster government has been decided by the people of England since 1945 .... do some research .... if the Scottish voting figures are removed, the government would have been the same.
All we are saying is that an independent Scotland would have the government of its choice and England would have the same, pure democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:20 AM

"that ignores the fact that on this island we are one people under three different flags;"

That though isn't a fact. It is an opinion. And many people wouldn't share that opinion instead seeing us as three peoples under one flag. Nothing to do with hating anyone etc. (a Canadian person recognising that he is different to an American perosn doesn't mean he hates that American) Just a view that the Scottish, English and Welsh are three nations sharing an island and currently in a political union with some of the Irish on another island. The Scots are only deciding whether they wish to remain in that union or not!


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:15 AM

Allan. Scotland doesn't own The Bank of England, The UK does. Nobody is offering a referendum over breaking up The UK. It shall exist and so shall its assets. Nobody asked us otherwise.

Jim. Stop saying Scotland didn't vote in conservatives. Neither did most of The UK. If they had won, they would have a mandate from you and I for Westminster decisions. It is called parliamentary democracy. Just like Salmond is offering you if he wins. Rules for coalitions seem similar in his Utopian delusion too.

Not every day I read and nod in agreement with Darling, but on this, his fears for Scotland seem to weigh up to me.

I suppose Salmond could resurrect his offer for a Celtic tiger with Iceland and Ireland? If he acts shrewdly, he might extend the offer to Portugal, Spain and Greece....


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

I `ad that McTavish in my cab the other day. I picked `im up at the "`ighland Inn" and I was surprised `e wasn`t pickled, in fact `e was quite subdued. I thought maybe `ed got `aggis down `is sporran
I said, " Afternoon Jock, You been `alf on the wagon then? It aint your usual self I`m seeing after a session in there."
`e said, "Nah Jim. Living down in the smoke all these years, I just been reading that Mudcat about Scotland and got quite nostalgic about all its treasures. I got a lump in my throat and I just couldn`t sink it"
I said, "Why so sad then?"
`e said, " It`s the bloody neighbours!!"


Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

"And Stue, we in Scotland have the chance to fling out the "Tory tosspots" while you in England voted them in at the last election"

Well, tarring every person in England as someone who voted the tories in is as egregious as assuming everyone in Scotland paints themselves in woad and goes round yelling "freedom!"; it's a tired stereotype of the sort that colours debates like this and reeks of nationalist sentiment.

I didn't vote the tories in, and I never would vote for them . . . or the LibDems . . . or even Labour anymore, as none of them are for the people. In fact, no-one voted the tories in as they don't have a majority and subsequently zero mandate for the mess they're creating. I don't blame Scotland for flinging the fuckers out, but don't assume every lilly-livered English person is responsible for that shower being in charge. It's easy for people on both sides of the argument to reduce a whole nation of people to shallow caricatures then flinging shit at them from either side of Hadrian's Wall like caged chimps unable to see beyond the confines of their unthinking prejudice.

The problem with the independence debate is that is divisive to its core and there is a tendency for both sides to re-write history to accommodate their own current political viewpoint. In reality, it means the working people of this island will be split more than ever by a nationalist wedge from both sides of the border, and we will all be less powerful for it.

The nationalist debate is absolutist in nature and personally I believe that plays into the hands of the haters and those who would profit from the increasing marginalisation of the working and middle classes. It's a simplistic viewpoint and lacks the nuance that ignores the fact that on this island we are one people under three different flags; three rich and ancient traditions that are intricately intertwined and interdependent and kept alive by ordinary people who have had to labour under an unfair and unjust feudal system for a millennia; a system they neither chose or really endorse, that keeps them from power and influence and for which they have died and suffered in their millions, had their land stolen all across the island and been put to work for the profit of the ever-present 1%.

Types like Cameron and Salmond revel in this atmosphere of hate and division, men of small moral stature, zero intellectual or idealogical substance and devoid of any integrity. We get the leaders we vote for, and neither of these poltroons or their ilk are worthy of our votes. Equality? That's out of the window for the foreseeable future. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I live on this island, I've ancestry from all over the island and beyond and as far as I'm concerned the borders are political and not cultural or genetic. We're one people, for better or worse and we'd be better off as one people.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:42 AM

Common sense at last :0)....well said Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM

I cannot help laughing when I hear stories about Scotland being either ejected by the EU or not allowed in when the EU is desperately trying to get the Ukraine to join!
And Stue, we in Scotland have the chance to fling out the "Tory tosspots" while you in England voted them in at the last election. Scotland voted overwhelmingly Labour then and will probably do so again when independent. Labour in Scotland will then have to rethink its policies with a strong SNP opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM

Stu: "We're all brothers and sisters on this island." I agree wholeheartedly, and that's a very kind, mature way of looking at it. However, in my experience while 'up there', the Scots (understandably perhaps) did NOT view The English favourably, and were openly hostile to me whenever I spoke with my London accent. Luckily for me (I was only 17) I have a maiden name which is a village in the far north of Scotland, and my father was a Scot. I soon learned to speak 'Edinburgh', converted later to 'Glasgae' and was accepted with warmth.
While one may entertain universal, benevolent feelings towards all mankind, one cannot discount the historical bitternesses and resentments of many parts of our island. Even here in Norfolk, the folk are quite insular and it's not easy to be accepted as 'one o' they southerners'.In addition, there is a ferocious tribe living here called The Rich. They are often NOT benevolent but rapacious, and see the rest of us merely as human ATM machines.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 03:04 AM

As a footnote as well as Gaelic other langauges that would be considered as allowable in the 1+2 policy are French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Arabic, Urdu, Punjabi, Chinese.

In reality with the vast bulk of schools what will be on offer is French, German, Spanish etc - and not Gaelic or Urdu.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 28 Jan 14 - 02:58 AM

Musket though at least keep the discussion away from the silly side of the argument. The SNP have never suggested that Holyrood should have a veto on economic decisions within what is left of the UK. In fact in connection with the Bank of England (which of course is partly owned by Scotland) they simply state that monetary policy in an independent Scotland (ie within a Sterling zone) would be decided by the Bank of England idependently of government. As it is now! They suggest no veto. All they suggest is that as part owners they would look for some formal input into the governance. Again no suggestion of a veto.

As to the people being 'allowed to speak English' then you're going to have to point out what bit of the document you are referring to in order to see what context this is! Again there is a lot of silly stuff spouted by some people. I did hear one local Tory activist claim we'd be allowed to speak English but that official SNP education policy was to make everyone speak Gaelic. Again it is plain nonsense. The SNP policy is that apart from their main language (which for virtually everyone means English) primary pupils should be learning two other languages. In the cases where Gaelic is on offer then that could be considered as one of the other two. People may criticise the language policy. Should primary kids be learning two other languages? Should Gaelic be included as one? However the idea that there is any threat at all to the status of English as the lingua franca is plain looney tunes!


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 03:56 PM

Aha Musket, using the sking Do again?
BvR


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 01:07 PM

Greetings from (in my best xenophobic fashion) the land of the cheese eating surrender monkeys.

Interestingly they are discussing the avalanche that Scottish independence could foster. Parts of France are looking for the precedence within EU members (as is Spain with Catalonia. )

Le Monde had an interesting article that pointed out Salmond's white paper and that fiscal union isn't in his power and judging by The UK groundswell objections to foreign powers having veto on economic decisions , the chances of The UK government getting a mandate from voters to monetary union would fall as flat as when Broon suggested The Euro and for the same reasons.

Oh, and pointed out that the paper proposes allowing English to be spoken. I'd be suspect about the word allow myself.

Anyway, back to the piste, savoire and a rather nice reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:54 PM

The problem with Salmond is he's just a Scottish version of the slime balls that inhabit the sleazy world of Westminster. He's right up the arse of Murdoch and backed one of the biggest dickheads in the world when he encouraged Donal Trump to trash a piece of coastline and intimidated the locals for a bloody poshos golf club.

Now as I live in England I have no say in the entire business, and whilst I'm not in favour of Scottish independence, if I was in their position I'd jettison England, Wales and the North of Ireland too as then they would be free of the tory tosspots who are ruling us now (and the Labour tosspots who emulate the tories when in office anyway).

In the end, this is another way of driving a wedge between the ordinary working people of our island, divide and conquer on a national scale. We're all brothers and sisters on this island.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:43 PM

It seems that 'poke' in this sense is derived from the French 'poche', from which we also get the English 'pouch'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:00 PM

When I was small, an Italian ice-cream seller used to come to our street. He pedalled a tricycle with an insulated box in a basket, containing the ice-cream. He sold it in greaseproof paper cones made by twirling a square in a very flamboyant way, shouting, "Okey pokey! Okey pokey!" My Scottish father and Irish mother knew the word 'poke' for a conical paper bag, and explained it to me, while buying some. (risking dire food-poisoning no doubt, but we were tough back then!)
There's also 'poke bonnet'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 11:25 AM

'poke' as in 'a pig in a poke', and 'a poky little room'


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 05:43 AM

And a poke of chips. Wi' bits. (Small pieces of batter added to the poke)


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:40 PM

BTW....A "poke" is whit ye pit sweeties in!....ignirint showir!! :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:35 PM

Hi mah auld frein......guid tae see ye hale n' herty, bit ah hink ye shuid awa an bile yer heid :0)....iffin ye kin git a pot big eneuch.

Ye see, whit you fowk forgit is thit this his goat naethin dae dae wi' the English attaw, this is fur usyins tae soart oot fur wursells.

Ekynomicly the West is in decline, and the UK govt waants tae waste money advancin' freedim an democricy among the Arabs an that, bit whit thae're really dain' is gein the Alkyedas the freedim, tae whip aw the ordinary fowks heids aff!!

Usyins ur naw intae that stuff, live an let live we say, weve goat waatir, plenty eh wind n' piss tae make energy.....were soartit so we ur!!

Weve goat that much waatir thit we kin send some doon sooth tae yousyins.....fur efftir whin ye git yer hooses dried oot! :0)


On a serious vane, bloody good tae Red, an' ye ken yer no' really English....sure ah adoptit ye three years ago! ye kin come up here ony time an git yer weans edjicated fur hee haw, an whin yer auldir and no sae quick oan yer feet.....ye kin git yer erse wipte fur naethin'........Paradise wis nivir lik this!! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM

"Fracturing countries is not a good move for anyone these days"

That depends on your perspective. Some would look on Scotland and the other UK constituent parts as being countries within a wider union. Hence they wouldn't see their country as such as coming to an end just the political union. It surely doesn't necessitate for Scotland to be controlled by Westminster for the British people to get along and co-operate. Salmond's tack for a long while now has been that it is better to have a good neighbour than a sulky lodger!


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 02:12 PM

I dunno about 25. I think I can manage 4.

1. Whisky!
2. Ake (even though he is a blithering idiot at times).
3. Doing their best to keep all the really crap weather north of the border.
4. Scenery (unencumbered by Scots, for preference ;-) ).
5-25. Whisky.

Oh, alright, I can manage 25. And hello Ake! Independence, I think, is a bad idea. Fracturing countries is not a good move for anyone these days, unless homicidal cultural differences really demand it. Despite all the banter, Sweaties & Sassies are well past that stage, surely? We'd do better to stay together, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

I saw the Celtic Connection/Commonwealth Burns night concert and was very impressed. I noticed that most of the singers managed to sidestep the usual Bel Canto style and sing the words as written by Burns. I was disappointed with Dougie MacLean who managed to rhyme "gang" with "song" and " among".


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM

"The mistake is quite often people think a Glaswegian is speaking 'Scots' when in fact it's just poor English and idiom"

In the past Glaswegian has been dismissed as bad speaking by both English and Scots language purists. The Scottish National Dictionary was over 40 years in the making. In the preface to volume one it dismisses Glaswegian as being hopelessly corrupted because of Irish and other immigrants. The suggestion being that it is too anglicised to be described as Scots any longer. More recently though that view seems to have changed and the leading lights of the Scots language movement now seem to accept Glaswegian (or West Central Scots) as a dialect of Scots and are apologetic about the preface. They just see it as a newer urban and yes, more anglicised, type of Scots. I get your point though in language continuums (ie where there is no defined break between one and the other - and that is quite common) where does one become the other? Often it is just perception rather than logic. Seemingly near the border with Portugal some of the Spanish dialects are closer to standard Portuguese than they are Standard Spanish.

It is true though that the more conservative Scots dialects. For example Border Scots, or Shetlandic or the Doric simly aren't heard all that much in the media. Even within Scotland never mind UK wide. What people tend to hear is Glaswegian!


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 10:53 AM

"Do people even agree in these surveys on they mean by "Scots"?"

The trouble is it is unscientific especially when the language has been so suppressed. So many people in the Borders for instance will say they speak Kelsae or Hawick and not associate it with a language called Scots. No doubt it is the same for other regions. Then there is the relationship with English. If someone speaks a mixture of Scots and Scottish Standard English then what is the line between the two? When does it become Scots?

Saying that though there are plenty of people who speak Scots and often (I include myself here) people can easily hold conversations where they'll speak to some people in a pretty standard English and then to someone else in their Scots dialect. Swapping all the time depending on who you're speaking too.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 10:03 AM

I agree with Lighter if you're talking about Glasgow. I come from Paisley! only 8 miles from Glasgow but we have/had many words like wame for stomach, aiblins for maybe, nieve for fist and wrocht for worked. There are many more and on the East coast there also many Scottish words as distinct from pronunciation. The mistake is quite often people think a Glaswegian is speaking 'Scots' when in fact it's just poor English and idiom.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 08:38 AM

Do people even agree in these surveys on they mean by "Scots"?

To qualify, at least to my mind, you need more than just pronunciation: you also need a good number of words that don't exist in Standard English. You have to sound rather like Robert Burns in "To a Mouse."

In the southern United States, for example, probably 90% of the population would say they "speak Southern in the home." But except for a bare handful of words and constructions ("y'all," "might could," "poke," etc.) the only real difference from "northern English" lies in the accent, which only in the most extreme cases takes more than 10 seconds for the average Yankee to understand. (I was once stumped for nearly that long when the cashier at a fast-food place asked, "Kyepyuh?")

So, yeah, a piece of string is yay long.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,topsie
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:24 AM

Television = goggle box
Telephone = blower

I'm sure there are many others but those were the first that came to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 06:00 AM

I wonder what the English word for television or telephone is?


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

When I last lived in Glasgow (many years ago) with my Island friends (perhaps I won't say teuchters, not wishing to offend anybody) I noticed that their Gaelic was evolving rapidly to incorporate modern terms, especially those related to technology. There didn't seem to be a word for television, telephone, fire-engine, disco and lots of other things. They even used English for the days of the week. Being linguistically minded, I'd sit fascinated listening to their chatter, and smiling at the English words, which were given a Gaelic flavour. I reckon this is how languages mutate and evolve. Need drives the vocabulary, and reflects the changing daily life of the speakers. This happens in French, where many non-Gallic words 'debase' their sacred French lingo. And look at the Normans and Saxons. Their contributions to English reflect their different social status and standards of living. Pig, cow, sheep, and pork, beef, mutton for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 05:36 AM

There are two aspects to fluency in a language - understanding it, and using it reasonably correctly to make yourself understood. The latter category usually involves a far smaller vocabulary and far fewer speakers and writers than the former has listeners and readers.


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