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BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!

MGM·Lion 16 Jan 14 - 03:57 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jan 14 - 08:50 AM
GUEST 16 Jan 14 - 08:06 AM
The Sandman 16 Jan 14 - 06:43 AM
The Sandman 16 Jan 14 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 14 - 06:43 PM
Nigel Parsons 15 Jan 14 - 06:03 PM
The Sandman 15 Jan 14 - 05:08 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 12:50 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 14 - 12:46 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 15 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 11:38 AM
The Sandman 15 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 14 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 14 - 10:28 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 10:10 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 10:03 AM
GUEST 15 Jan 14 - 09:59 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Jan 14 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 14 - 09:02 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 14 - 07:04 AM
The Sandman 15 Jan 14 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jan 14 - 05:05 AM
Jim McLean 15 Jan 14 - 05:03 AM
selby 15 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jan 14 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jan 14 - 03:11 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jan 14 - 03:07 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 02:32 PM
MGM·Lion 14 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 08:53 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 08:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM
The Sandman 14 Jan 14 - 07:23 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM
MGM·Lion 14 Jan 14 - 01:10 AM
Van 13 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 14 - 10:54 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:57 PM

I've already noticed that for myself & acknldg'd my mistake, Jim, 15 jan, 1253 pm, pointing out coincidence that Performance also had a personality-merge theme & climax; as I said, the Fox & Jagger characters.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:50 AM

"A nasty, fascist aggressor"
There goes Thatcher - if she'd been given her head   
"Fox or Jagger?"
Seem to be talking about two different films - I'm talking about the Bergman one where the main two characters eventually merged into one - I think you might be referring to 'Performance' - different ball game.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:06 AM

one good thing is mrs t won't have to explain the belgrano to any argi sailor's where she is now, i would think she's very hot what evil thing she was


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:43 AM

he ongoing spat between Argentina and Britain over the sovereignty of Falkland Islands just got a little tenser. Britain seems unwilling to back down from its support of the Falkland Islands' right to self-determination, making an amicable resolution to the conflict unlikely to come soon or easily. But Britain's backing of self-determination is not as simple as it seems.

Last month, Argentinean President Cristina Fernandez spurred tension over British rule of the Falkland Islands at a two-day Mercosur summit in Montevideo, Uruguay, accusing the United Kingdom of extracting natural resources belonging to South America and refusing to engage in dialogue with Argentina over its claim to the territory. Without directly calling for Argentinean rule over the islands—known in Argentina as "Las Malvinas" — Fernandez did convince Mercosur countries, including Brazil, Uruguay, and Venezuela, to ban Falkland ships from docking in their ports.

Related story: Growth of separatist movements in Europe

This week, after several events that heightened tension between the two countries, British Prime Minister David Cameron accused Argentina of colonialist aspirations and articulated his country's support of the Islanders' right to decide their fate. "The key point is we support the Falkland Islanders' right to self-determination," he said. "What the Argentineans have been saying recently, I would argue is actually far more like colonialism because these people want to remain British and the Argentineans want them to do something else." Unsurprisingly, Argentina reacted very strongly, calling out the irony of British accusations.

The United Kingdom's support of self-determination in the Falkland Islands only reveals the state's interest in retaining British control over the islands' considerable oil reserves and to deny Argentina any accommodation. By supporting self-determination in the Falkland Islands—which, in fact, does not want to spurn British rule — Britain appears to be abdicating all responsibility for an amicable solution that addresses Argentina's legitimate claim to the islands' natural resources. Some suggest that Cameron's heavy-handedness on the Falklands issue is designed to offset criticism of his administration's failures at home. His refusal to negotiate and talk to Argentina under UN Resolution 2065 only exacerbates already deteriorating ties.

This is not to say that Argentina's demands are reasonable. The British, for their part, did try to negotiate with Argentina early on at the International Court of Justice at the Hague in 1947, 1948, and 1955. Argentina, however, refused mediation. Argentina does not recognize the Falkland Islands' right to self-determination, leaving negotiations without a starting point. And recent finger pointing at Britain's colonial past begs an examination of Argentina's own blighted and bloody record of persecuting indigenous minorities.

falklands

Britain's de facto stance of self-determination is not going to resolve this ongoing and tiresome dispute. Both sides must adjust their stances, review their policy goals, and put this conflict to rest once and for all. The first step would be to engage in discussions at the UN, without the name-calling. Britain's use of the Falkland Islands as a proxy for other national interests is unhelpful and undermines the democratic rights, specifically on security, to which Falkland Islanders' are entitled irrespective of which citizenship they hold.

Photo Credit: U.S. Navy


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:39 AM

no double standard, i was stating a fact if you do not like it, tough, she did go to war when her electoral stock was falling.
you wish to read things in to my post that is your problem, here is another fact thatcher was not concerned about going to war with pinochet, another fascist who overthrew a democratically elected regime., was she? she chose to fight argentina for a number of reasons other than fighting fascism, does it not occur to you that there were other reasons as well as protecting the people of the falklands,for instance, the word OIL.
THERE COULD YET BE ANOTHER WAR WITH ARGENTINA ABOUT OIL.rather acenntuates my point about unecessary closing of coal mines and going to war for natural resources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:43 PM

A nasty, fascist aggressor, with thousands of "disappeared" and their stolen babies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:03 PM

she went to war when her electoral stock was falling.
She went to war when an aggressor attacked a British dependency.
Or are you against forced regime change when done by Pinochet, but in favour if done by Galtieri?

Some double-standards here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:08 PM

Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity, quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace.
Benito Mussolini.
in my opinion, sums up mrs thatchers philosophy, so not incorrect to call her a fascist, she supported pinochet a fascist who overthrew a democratically elected regime, she went to war when her electoral stock was falling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM

Oh, bum. Wrong film. I was thinking about Performance, coincidentally also about merged personalities. Yours was Bergman, wasn't it?

Slipping, I fear. Blame old age...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:50 PM

Out of interest, am I Fox or Jagger?

Just asking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:46 PM

"Er, you started the "I spy" game Jim"
Apologies Mike - quite forgot there was another raving Thatcherite defending her fascism on this forum - just like in 'Persona' you appear to have merged into one entity - too late for the spoon, I'm afraid.
The childish language remains all your own work though - well done
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:22 PM

"Irony is wasted on the stupid"
― Oscar Wilde


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM

For Christ's sake mthegm, either grow up or commit yourself to a lunatic asylum. Ever get past the potty training stage did you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM

That wasn't my post, Jim. So why reply to it as if it was mine.

Making assumptions again, instead of reading properly, that's why.

Silly-billy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

"Er, you started the "I spy" game Jim."
I made a point in perfectly good English - you reduced it to infantilke namecalling in childish gibberish.
If I did anything wrong it was in creating a bolt-hole for you to avoid discussing Mrs Thatcher's fascism, your attempts to use semantics to deny it having crashed in flames some time back
Now - Pinochet/Thatcher, or is that another subject you are about to do a runner on, as with your defence of Keith's "cultural implant"?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:38 AM

WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY OF ITS PWETTY GWATE BIG SUGE WED LETTERS LATELY, WOT IT USES AS A SUBBY-WUBSTICHOOT FOR THOUGHT, HAVE WE, MY ICKETTY·ICKLE·WIDDY? NOT SULKI-WULKI-WULKING ARE WE??? DIDDUMS!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM

no, i am saying, mrs thatcher was incorrect, she destroyed many communities, divided the nation, she decided not to use british coal for a political reason ,revenge for the 1973 strike and she was a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:40 AM

Er, you started the "I spy" game Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:28 AM

Fairly accurate, in the context I would have thought, as distict from
"I spy with my ickle ℇ❣ɛ fumfing beginnink wiv"
You are not putting an argument here Mike - I may not be right, but I am.
Give us a break and grow up (I don't think I'm the only one to have asked you this.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:10 AM

"Did you know you invariably resort to childishly abusive responses whenever you find yourself at a loss"...
"Ah well, keep on goose-stepping"

,..,.

〠〠〠


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:03 AM

Did you know you invariably resort to childishly abusive responses whenever you find yourself at a loss

Ah well, keep on goose-stepping
,..,.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:59 AM

Was Pin O'chet one of the irish miners?
Why does no one here move on get a life


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:49 AM

every country should attempt to be self sufficient as regards raw materials, the alternative is either going to war to get raw materials from someone else, or supporting undemocratic tyrannical regimes in the middle east., or importing cheaper fuel,and in the process destroying communities in the uk, creating ghettoes of unemployment, thatcher gave the miners who helped to save this country during the war a nice thankyou.

So, are you aying that Maggie was correct.
Buy coal cheaply elsewhere when we can, then, if there's another war, our reserves have not been depleted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:02 AM

"Better be careful of that temper of yours, Jim"
No temper Mike, can't remember having so much fun since my father let me sit with him on his bulldozer when he was clearing up the dredgings from the Manchester Ship Canal - all those rats scurrying out of the rotting garbage - ah, it takes me back!
Did you know you invariably resort to childishly abusive responses whenever you find yourself at a loss for an answer - just thought I'd mention it?
Now - any chance of an adult discussion on the Thatcher/Pinochet love affair and how it affected Britain - why do I doubt the answer is yes.
Ah well, keep on goose-stepping, the pair of you - it'll have to do for the time being.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:29 AM

Better be careful of that temper of yours, Jim, and stop posting so readily when it's so hot. It leads you to filling other people's posts with your agenda of what you think they must have meant, and other such discreditable & culpable offensiveness, leavibg you looking very silly and undermining what virtues there might be in your lefty doctraire fatuities.

In fact, carry on. You are just going to make a fool of yourself ~~ again.

I spy with my ickle ℇ❣ɛ fumfing beginnink wiv
SDI ~~ nowt to do with Serial digital interface or Strategic Defense Initiative:

give up?




self destructive idiocy


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM

"Democracy? So who elected her,"
I'm tempted to say the same type of people who elected Hitler.
But of course, it's never as simple as that, is it.
Thatcher was elected on a number of counts - just as her counterpart in pre-war Germany was - a combination of a series of reasons.
Thatcher won the day because of the incompetence and betrayal of her predecessors, and the selling of a dream that benefited some but impoverished many more - fairly obvious from your responses, which group you come from.
The "Will Of The People" allows us to elect leaders on thhe basis of promises that are never kept and of them playing on our own fears and prejudices (shits like Powell with his Rivers of Blood speech, backed up by turdules like you and your fick mate - no change with the present mob, of course)
None of us get the Government we are promised and few of us get the Government that we want - unfortunately, that's how parliamentary democracy works - little if anything to do with real democracy and the will of the people.
Attempting to blame the electorate for Thatcher's stated fascism doesn't alter in one bit that she was a fascist that took her power to the extreme, and would have taken it further, if allowed - you can blame the people if you like, personally I blame the set-up that allows them to attain power.
I don't suppose for one minute that you are going to respond in any way to the implications of Thatcher's support for a mass murderer and her describing his behaviour as "democratic" - which says more about you than it does about her repressive period in office.
Persisting with these arguments really does bring the rats out of their holes
I spy with my little eye,
Something beginning with F (two of them)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:04 AM

We are only talking about coal.
It is plentiful and cheap, and we got it from Australia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:09 AM

every country should attempt to be self sufficient as regards raw materials, the alternative is either going to war to get raw materials from someone else, or supporting undemocratic tyrannical regimes in the middle east., or importing cheaper fuel,and in the process destroying communities in the uk, creating ghettoes of unemployment, thatcher gave the miners who helped to save this country during the war a nice thankyou.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:05 AM

Labour governments rarely had a mandate from the English people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:03 AM

Thatcher came to power in 1979 with 22 Scottish MPs out of 71, in 1983 she had 21, in1987 she had 10, in 1992 the Tories had 11, in 1997 they had 0 and since then only one Scotitish Conservative MP is in the Westminster parliament. The question as to whether Scotland should elect its own parliament is a no brainer. Since Thatcher's time the Tories have never had a mandate from the Scottish people. She lied through her teeth and secretly cut the Scottish budget, she tried the Poll tax on Scotland first, she destroyed the coal industry, she conned people into buying their own homes thus drying up affordable houses which taxpayers had funded in the first place, she kowtowed to fascists like Pinochet ....
She was an evil, nasty lier and should be remembered as such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: selby
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM

According to Media reports whilst the lions (miners) where following the donkey (Scargill) he was ripping the miners off. Another court case looming over how he used funds.
Maggie picked the man for the fight and he did not disappoint, if he had had a second ballot, the TUC would have supported him but he refused as he knew best, IMHO both as bad as each other. If we continue into modern times governments in this country still treat the north of England with contempt, as a snap shot take a look at the Tour de France coming to Yorkshire see what the government thought about that.
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:49 AM

Democracy? So who elected her, if not the δεμος, then? You lefties [you haven't answered my question, so 'lefty' will do for now] are all for your precious "Democracy' until it comes up with a result you don't like. Not quite so bloody 'democratic' then, are we, eh, wotwotwot!

How very dare you! speak so slightingly of the demonstrated 'Will Of The People' ['For the People, By The People']?

Bloody arrogance!

~M~



Did you all, BTW, know that what Lincoln said [or rather pronounced] at Gettysburg was not, as so oft cited , "Government OF the people, FOR the people, BY the people', but "Government of the PEOPLE, for the PEOPLE by the PEOPLE" ~~ emphasis on 'people' each time, rather than, as so often malquoted, on its governing preposition. I read this once in the memoirs of one who was there, written later to correct this popular misconception. Just thought this worth mentioning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:11 AM

"Her achievements can be viewed in different lights from different standpoints"
As I said - Mussolini made the trains run on time, or claimed to
Thatcher's fascism comes from her own mouth.
You have a description of Pinochet's actions.
You have Thatcher's open support of Pinochet.
You have the effect that Thatcher's policy had on the less well off of Britain
You have Thatchers use of the police and intended use of the army during the miners strike
Put them together and what have you got "bippety, bobbety, boo" no doubt!
What we don't have is the knowledge of which 'Santiago Stadium' she would have used had the unrest her policies caused continued - White City, Wembley......?
The London Dome would have been handy, had it been built then - handy todispose of the bodies into the Thames after she'd finished with them.
As I said, there, but for the grace of - whoever, nearly went Britain.
Long live democracy, as long as it's not Pinochet and Thatcher's particular version of it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:07 PM

All true, Jim. When have I ever denied any of it, lipservicely or otherwise? It's just your inaccurate use of the precisely definable term fascist: tho must admit that it has become vulgarised into a term of vulgar meaningless abuse, so I suppose it will serve your turn OK. Her achievements can be viewed in different lights from different standpoints, is all. Don't bother to be sarcastic about Adolf being kind to dogs & such; heard it all too often before. But I remain hilariously entertained as ever by the knots all you great Supporters Of Democracy can tie yourselves into when the δεμος has the temerity to vote for something you lefties dislike. (Or aren't you even a lefty? You are very good at shape-shifting evasions when it comes to defining what you are. So come on now: come on out, & tell us how you would like to be described politically ~~ & don't fall back on humanist again; not a political designation by any stretch...)

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:38 PM

Which of this do you believe not to be true Mike?
Just curious
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:32 PM

"OK, so go on calling them fascists"
I will Mike
I have repeatedly described how Pinochet behaved - he overthrew a legally elected government, murdered the president, rounded up all opposition into Santiago Stadium where they were tortured, raped and eventually murdered - in their thousands - all to impose an unelected regime, which continued to suppress all opposition.
When he was finally forced, mainly by international pressure and mounting opposition from within, to call an election, he had his troops and loyal police, harass those bravely standing in those elections, he built up a record on all of them, presumably to put them through the same procedures as those who opposed his coup.
On the morning of the election he stationed armoured cars and troops outside many of the polling stations in order to influence of the vote, and when the final count was announced in Santiago, Pinochet's armoured cars lined the streets in the hope of having the whole thig called off.   
When he was put under house arrest in London, Thatcher befriended him and lobbied for his release, accusing those who had arrested him f "running a police state".
The put the support of the Conservative Party at his disposal, holding a rally in his support - at that rally she described him as a "true democrat and a friend of Britain".
She was eventually influential in preventing him from coming to trial for his crimes against humanity.
Neither she, her party colleagues and ministers (and her latter-day supporters, it would seem), never once explained or withdrew their support from her or their behaviour - they (and you) remain unrepentant - though in fairness, you have paid a little mealy mouthed lip service to Pinochet's fascism - why wouldn't you when yo reall have no alternative if you don't wish to appear quite as fascist as she was.
When she fought the miners she openly used the police force as both rabble-rousers, then as physical opponents to the strike in exactly the way I have depicted.
It has transpired that she was days away from using the army to break the miners strike.
She was fascist scum - as are those who support her behaviour, both in regard to the fascist dictator Pinochet and by her behaviour towards the British people - whatever her supporters, then and now thought of her and still think of her - all pigs out of the same sty as far as I'm concerned.
"my calling you a Commie or a Marxist"
If you had any evidence I was either (as you bent over backward to establish at one time, I have little doubt that you wouldn't hesitate to do so.
As it is, you constantly intimate that that I might be (why else would you continue to raise the terms?)
On the other hand, your moronic adopted ward constantly does so, throwing in "racist" and "anti-Semite" for good measure.
I would guess that Attilla the Hun would be regarded as a ranting leftie to the pair of you.
Feel free to use such terms whenever the mood takes you - it adds a little lightness to the depressing picture you and your kind present of humanity.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM

OK, so go on calling them fascists, Jim. But have at least the decency & humility to recognise that it is precisely as accurate a designation as my calling you a Commie or a Marxist, to which you have frequently taken exception as as an inaccurate summation of your position & beliefs.

So how about a bit of pots'n'kettles, then?

As if. & you have the gall to talk about me paying 'lip·service': a phrase you seem to understand about as well as you seem to know what 'fascist' means. So go on wallowing in your constant catachreses, & hope it keeps fine 4U!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 11:43 AM

Not in any way suggesting that any Labour (or other Conservative) goverment were/are fascists - just that they did nothing to right her fascist behaviour - spineless suckers up to big business all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 11:40 AM

"Did any subsequent Labour government ever reinstate " the grip of the Trades Union movement on British industry?""
No they fucking didn't - they are equally as bad as Thatcher and her mob
What's your point?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM

By the way, whoever these "certain people/sections/unions," (you chose not to specify), has#d any of them broke the law, the police were perfectly entitled to arrest them, charge them, place restriction orders on them, bind them over to keep the peace.... a host of legal actions they were entitled to take, which they never did.
Had the situation got out of hand, they were entitled to apply for a state of emergency to be declared - it never was.
The repressive, provocative and violent behaviour was entirely a decision taken by the police from the beginning of the strike.
Had the police not been regarded as above the law and answerable only to their own superiors they would have been prosecuted for violent and unruly behaviour - they never where.
Thatcher used the police as a dictator uses them, as a private army to achieve political ends
Just as her friend Pinochet, she was prepared to use the army in the same way - as recently revealed documents have shown
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:53 AM

Did any subsequent Labour government ever reinstate " the grip of the Trades Union movement on British industry?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:25 AM

"but how did she use the police/army/judiciary to repress their views?"
In practical terms - one of your "certain people/sections/unions," it would seem

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffield/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8217000/8217946.stm

Elsewhere it has been established that part of Thatcher/MacGregor's agenda was to loosen the grip of the Trades Union movement on British industry
Dawn raids on miners homes, the sealing off of entire mining villages with police road blocks, police waving their pay packets at miners struggling to feed their families..... all is part of the history of the miners strike Nigel.
As I said, classic fascism - the state versus the people.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM

Relying on foreign coal was no risk.
There was plenty and it was cheap.
We mostly bought Australian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:23 AM

When she forced the closures of the mines she put nothing in their place - this led to the destruction and impoverishment of entire communities"
Correct, it also meant that The UK, had to rely on foreign fuel imports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM

Thatcher was prepared and actually did use the police, the army and the judiciary to repress the views of people defending their livelihood, their homes and their way of life - the classic actions of a fascist politician
How so?
I can understand that she used those powers available to her to restrict the actions of certain people/sections/unions, but how did she use the police/army/judiciary to repress their views?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM

By the way - your attempts to use semantics to defend Thatcher's behaviour is equally as evasive as your use of Keith's cut-'n-pastes.
Thatcher was prepared and actually did use the police, the army and the judiciary to repress the veiws of people defending their livelihood, their homes and their way of life - the classic actions of a fascist politician
If it waddles and quacks it's almost certainly a duck
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM

Your reference to her still being hated by large sections of the population and her support for Pinochet are no more than lip-service unless you address the reasons for them
That she was and still is popular with sections of the population is totally immaterial.
Thatcher was a fascist - you nor any of her supporters have even attempted to disprove that fact other than, i your patronising way, to claim that I don't understand fascism.
Her lasting legacy was to respectabalise greed; the turned homes into 'commodities'invested in, the ripped out the heart of British industry and she removed the safety net that British Society (that she didn't believe existed) had created to ascertain that the less well-off didn't suffer too much by government and buisiness failures and indifference.
When she forced the closures of the mines she put nothing in their place - this led to the destruction and impoverishment of entire communities.
Tebbitt summed it up when he told us "we should all get on our bikes and leave home to seek work" - not something anybody with a streak      of humanity in them tells a miner with a family who has just lost his job because his pit has closed.
We are still living with the 'dog-eat-dog' society that Thatcher created.
She not only ruined many of our lives, but she debased the huanity of many of her subjects.
That she remains popular with those she debased is immaterial - Hitler was once a popular feller with a lot of people I'm told, and remains so with some.
You're doing Keith's trick of hiding behind meaningless cut-'n-pastes to put forward superficial arguments and ignoring the salient facts of Thatcher's reign of terror.
Did she support Pinochet?
Was Pinochet a fascist (by your definition (whatever that is) or mine?
Did she declare his behaviour "democratic"?
What does that make her as a politician?
She was a fascist and she admitted to that fact by her statements and, in my opinion, by her actions
An answer to these would be far more preferable than your mealy-mouthed lip-service
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 01:10 AM

"is, and hopefully will remain the most hated Prime Minister in British history – it says little for her continuing supporters and for those less affected by her policies that she received the support she did"
...
& continues to do so, Jim, quite widely. Is not Guest KeithA's post of 9 Jan, 1031 AM not a bit enlightening? I have at least twice conceded the force of your point about the hatred among sections of the population. And admit also that it was the ill-judged support of Pinochet, which I in no way defend, which began the undermining of this which culminated in her ultimate defeat over the Poll Tax. But it is no use your claiming that she did not thru most of her time in office command a considerable majority of pro's over antis.

~M~

And I still think this loose use of the emotive term 'fascist', which ought to have a precise political connotation but has degenerated into such an all-purpose term of denunciation as to have lost both accuracy and effectiveness, is one of those which should be avoided as undermining of the user's argument because blunted by overuse, and so liable to reduce what should be a valid argument to a cliché: tho must concede that an effective alternative does not come instantly to mind. 'Totalitarian' perhaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Van
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM

There seems to be a strange misunderstanding of the UK electoral system. People elect an MP not a PM. The majority party appoint a leader they become PM. Thatcher took over a form of presidential rule, copied by her bastard son Blair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:54 AM

Should read - "and restrict the access of many of us to rights, access to justice, health, education - of course - though, how could we not know that (outside of Cambridgeshire and England's privileged soft-underbelly, of course),
Jim Carroll


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