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Criticism at singarounds

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Richard Bridge 30 Sep 15 - 11:57 AM
GUEST 30 Sep 15 - 07:48 AM
The Sandman 30 Sep 15 - 07:31 AM
GUEST,Richard Bridge in Internet Explorer (spit) 30 Sep 15 - 06:07 AM
The Sandman 30 Sep 15 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,padgett 30 Sep 15 - 03:44 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 15 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Sep 15 - 05:51 AM
Ged Fox 29 Sep 15 - 05:07 AM
Stanron 29 Sep 15 - 04:24 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 15 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,padgett 28 Sep 15 - 06:09 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Sep 15 - 04:38 PM
The Sandman 28 Sep 15 - 04:08 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Sep 15 - 02:40 PM
Ged Fox 28 Sep 15 - 01:29 PM
Steve Gardham 28 Sep 15 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,David Nuttall, Wakefield 28 Sep 15 - 07:00 AM
Jack Campin 28 Sep 15 - 05:00 AM
Joe Offer 28 Sep 15 - 04:39 AM
Phil Edwards 28 Sep 15 - 03:53 AM
Steve Gardham 27 Sep 15 - 09:38 AM
Joe Offer 26 Sep 15 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 26 Sep 15 - 05:43 PM
Bert 26 Sep 15 - 03:59 PM
Jack Blandiver 26 Sep 15 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Ian 26 Sep 15 - 04:35 AM
Joe Offer 26 Sep 15 - 03:29 AM
Bert 26 Sep 15 - 03:06 AM
Jack Campin 24 Sep 15 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,DTM 24 Sep 15 - 02:26 PM
Lonesome EJ 24 Sep 15 - 12:06 PM
The Sandman 24 Sep 15 - 12:00 PM
Phil Edwards 24 Sep 15 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 24 Sep 15 - 11:14 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Sep 15 - 09:13 AM
Phil Edwards 24 Sep 15 - 07:04 AM
Rumncoke 24 Sep 15 - 06:21 AM
The Sandman 23 Sep 15 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 23 Sep 15 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Nottveeverynight 23 Sep 15 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Nov 13 - 02:07 PM
johncharles 25 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM
The Sandman 25 Nov 13 - 01:10 PM
johncharles 25 Nov 13 - 06:31 AM
The Sandman 25 Nov 13 - 04:28 AM
johncharles 25 Nov 13 - 03:41 AM
Phil Edwards 24 Nov 13 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Craigie Hill 24 Nov 13 - 07:40 PM
The Sandman 24 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 11:57 AM

I thought you implied (above) Dick that shanties "ought" (mostly) to be sung in unison but that unrehearsed harmony was acceptable. I think Hugill referred to it as only being found in "negro" (his word) crews - but that was then not now.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 07:48 AM

what do shanties sound like under water ?


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 07:31 AM

I am happy to hear shanties sung in lots of different ways, as Richard says it is all a matter of taste.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Richard Bridge in Internet Explorer (spit)
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 06:07 AM

Funny experience just now in Chrome - typing not appearing in the box here!

Anyway, I think the above is a pile of poo. Shanties (originally work songs as distinct from forebitters) are examples of folk songs. Folk songs are defined by derivation not style. The only wrong you can do a folk song is not to sing it (I think Martin Carthy said that). Folk songs are not set in aspic.

How to sing a shanty is a matter of taste. If you want to change the timing so it is too irregular (or slow or fast) to be used as a work song, do it. If you want such or such a harmony, sing it or arrange it. If you want instruments on it, do it.

Personally I hate pianos on folk songs (one and one only June Tabor song excepted) and I often hate banjos (I heard one played sensitively last week, and on another occasion a different one two years ago) and indeed ukuleles. Shaky eggs can be OK or can be bad, and the same goes for bodhrans and cajons and triangles are usually horrid but can fit in some cajun stuff (which I don't like anyway) - but these are matters of taste, not the nature of the song.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 04:05 AM

Hugill makes a remark at the end of the second clip, he say we would have only sung a couple of verses to do the job, However Stan was otherwise singing it in the style that he would have don for doing a shanty. I rest my case, an example of two shanties well sung in a working style but not used for work at that particular time


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 30 Sep 15 - 03:44 AM

Good link to shanty people, Jim Mageean, Danny MacLeod, Johnny Collins, Shanty Jack aka Peter, and two Wilsons cica 1990

Ray


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:10 AM

good points Jim.
I would like to add that being rehearsed is important.
here is a person who was a working shantyman, stan hugill, singing a shanty presumably in the way he would have used it for work, as far as i am concerned this is perfectly acceptable for any singaround
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znW01dlU0n0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgQ50IPOCQ


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:51 AM

"The 'folk police' can express their opinions like the rest of us but it won't change anything."
This has become one of the nastier phrases in the revival (expanded on occasion to Folk-fascists).
It seems that folk song is the only art or performance activity to be above criticism.
Expressing an opinion is just that - expressing an opinion - not "policing" the music.
Those who use it must consider themselves great performers to believe them selves above criticism.
Little wonder that the "anything goes" school of thought reigns supreme nowadays.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Ged Fox
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:07 AM

Agreed, Steve & Padgett; in a singaround shanties become chorus songs which can, like any others, be practised, harmonised or sung in any style that the performers like. What is almost impossible, (forgive me GSS,) in a singaround, is to sing them like work songs. ***Pause for thought*** Most people recognise the incongruousness of the comfortable middle classes singing about ploughboys, mill hands and fishermen, but there is no way to tell, in general, whether a performer was brought up to know a sidecarp from a shuttle or a sweep, or whether he just learnt the difference from footnotes. Nor, maybe, need that matter, since for our purposes imagination and empathy can take the place of experience. The incongruity of the singaround shanty differs from that of most other songs in that the song itself changes its nature by being brought indoors and sat down.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 04:24 AM

Here's a thought, perhaps if you attempt to 'combine authenticity' with anything then you are changing it so it can no longer be authentic anyway. Much better to do it with love and hope that it communicates.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 03:58 AM

I agree[generally], Although there are a few who try to combine authenticity with chorus singing, There is no reason why it cant be done if people want to.
I am happy with both approaches.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 06:09 PM

Shanties sung away from ships and work are surely sung as artistic songs and more for pleasure and for others to join in the chorus singing and non singer to listen to

Ray


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 04:38 PM

The point I was trying to make, obviously clumsily, was that whatever they are used for nowadays is a different purpose so they can't be the same thing as they once were. They are being used for entertainment and in that case they, like all other folk songs, are open to any interpretation the performers wish. The 'folk police' can express their opinions like the rest of us but it won't change anything.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 04:08 PM

I am not an expert on shanties but i understand, that they were on occasion sung in harmony, however i do not think the harmonies were rehearsed.
It may not be authentic to sing carefully rehearsed harmonies in shanties, but if the shanty is sung in a manner that the work could be done, even if the harmonies are rehearsed, I see no problem. The problem in my opinion is not rehearsal if they still sound like work songs, but more the kind of harmony being used and the way the song is performed.
if they are sung like work songs, then it [surely?] means they are shanties because they are suitable for ship work, even if at that time no one is actually working, they are being sung in a style that is suitable for appropriate work, is it not more a question of style, and if they are sung in a style that makes them suitable for work, they must be shanties, even if they have been rehearsed.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 02:40 PM

Hi Ged,
In any circumstance other than on a ship for work duties can they be called shanties?


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Ged Fox
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 01:29 PM

Sea shanties usually sound incongruous at a singaround, however they are sung. They are often enjoyable to sing or listen to; but indoors, sitting down or with carefully rehearsed harmonies, how can they be called shanties?


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 08:17 AM

David,
I have every sympathy with your situation, and have sometimes witnessed the reverse snobbery you refer to. Indeed years ago I might have been guilty of it myself. However, many of what we nowadays call folk songs originated in the theatre and the refined pleasure gardens like Vauxhall and Ranelagh in London. Another valid point is that the folk scene in Britain is definitely a very different beast to what went on prior to say 1900. We are all reviving something and most of us are arranging the material in a very different format to what it existed as prior to 1900. Personally I have little quibble with trained voices singing folk music. However certain songs do sound somewhat incongruous sung in this way, sea shanties as just one example. I entirely agree with your final comment. Rudeness in any form is unnecessary.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,David Nuttall, Wakefield
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 07:00 AM

My experience of ' Criticism At Singarounds ' has a parallel here...but with a slightly different twist ! My partner and I often sang unaccompanied folk songs in harmony together.. mainly at informal fringe sessions like the ones to be found in pubs during the Whitby Folk Festival week , at our own local Wakefield informal Sunday sessions and folk festival singarounds all over Yorkshire many of which we have hosted . She was primarily a gifted and accomplished singer of light opera and had been classically trained. She has taken the lead roles in many major productions all over Yorkshire, nationwide and overseas . She also sang solo folk songs which were always enjoyed by many. Whenever we sang together she was able to make ME sound half - decent as she had a real talent and ear for harmonising . With another friend we occasionally sang as a trio too .

I know that in other threads here on Mudcat there has been much debate ( and some bigotry ) regarding bringing operatic or similar voices to renditions of folk music. In my view it should be a case of ' Live And Let Live ' as it would be pretentious to try to sing with any voice other than the one which is natural and comfortable for us . She enjoys all kinds of music and was happy to sing for the joy of it and the enjoyment it gave to others.

One day , in an informal pub setting , as we were about to sing , we were greeted by one non - singing lady listener with a loud cry of....." Oh God ! Here comes that bloody opera singer ! " This had the resultant effect of knocking my partner's confidence and she subsequently rarely sang folk music in such settings again at all. This was in spite of many of the assembled listeners trying to encourage her to subsequently sing.

I often reflect on how many folk singers ( me included here ) could turn their hand ( or voice ) to singing most of the parts in most of the G. and S. operas ( whilst acknowledging that MANY would not wish to do so !!!!! ). SHE was able to sing both folk and opera to a very high standard...whilst remaining modest and unassuming.

Constructive, sensitive, well - timed criticism in the appropriate place , manner and context should be welcomed....but NOT if it destroys confidence or actually deters people from wanting to continue singing and have a go ...whatever the chosen genre .


David Nuttall , Wakefield


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 05:00 AM

I had never heard anyone sing "Goodnight Irene" as a serious song.

I'd never heard of anybody trying to make it funny until that posting.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 04:39 AM

No doubt it was my mistake, Steve, but it was a mistake - not an excuse for public chastisement. I came in late, and didn't understand what was going on. I had never heard anyone sing "Goodnight Irene" as a serious song. Where I come from, it's a song that people add verses to ad nauseam.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 03:53 AM

It's often acceptable to pitch in to an extendable number like "A drop of Nelson's blood", though. (Can't think of any other examples off hand, although I'll probably think of some as soon as I press Submit.) It sounds as if Joe mistook one type of song for another.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Sep 15 - 09:38 AM

Joe,
If I might.....I can only comment from the point of view of this side of the pond; whereas unwanted accompaniment can be a damned nuisance, adding bits on to someone else's song, particularly changing the tenor of the performance is even more bad manners and annoying. Is it really okay to do that in the States? I've seen people get away with it in a free-for-all barroom situation, but In a singaround, never!


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 09:02 PM

I suppose I should say more, Bert. I had been doing my committee member work at camp, and I arrived late at the singaround while this person was singing "Goodnight Irene." I think maybe she was trying to sing it as a serious song, but I didn't catch onto that at the time. So, I sang the "sometimes Irene wears pajamas" verse after the woman finished singing. And then she made a speech, publicly chastising me for that.

If she had talked with me privately, that would have been another matter. But she's one of those dominating personalities who rules with negativity, and I think that's something that can kill the spirit of a singaround. If there is criticism to be made, it should be done in a positive manner, and privately.

I was at a singaround a couple weeks ago, and there was a newcomer there who kept time to every song with his tambourine. I was trying a song that was new to me, but couldn't find the melody with that damn tambourine playing. We have a rule that people should not play instruments unless they're invited by the person singing, but I didn't want to hurt the guy's feelings - but his tambourine was distracting to a number of singers. We decided that if he comes again, we'll tell him - privately.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 05:43 PM

I wonder if the people who criticise others doing their best like it if someone gives them the same.       Maybe it is those of us who have suffered discouragement in the past, who are more conscious of the negative impact of harsh criticism, that try to avoid discouraging others.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Bert
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 03:59 PM

Why on earth would anyone want to criticize you Joe? I've heard you perform and I thought that you were great.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 04:55 AM

Self-awareness is a very good thing. At Fylde Festival they famously hosted a Worst Singer in the World Context which had no shortage of takers, each fully aware of how bad they were. It's those who are bad and don't realise it that bother me - I've known a goodly (or badly) few truly excerable singers down the years who thought themselves worthy of attention; just as, conversely, I've know some really amazing singers who had no confidence in their abilities whatsoever and gave up - in one case because of criticism from someone who couldn't hold a tune in a bucket. Go figure.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 04:35 AM

"People on the folk scene who have spent 50 years not learning how to be polite, constructive, friendly and appreciative are more of a problem for its continued viability than the occasional talentless newbie."

Couldn't agree more, Jack.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 03:29 AM

I love to sing, but I find many singarounds away from home to be very stressful, because they are dominated by "my shit don't stink" singers who seek to impose all sorts of rules that I may or may not be able to comply with to their satisfaction. Sometimes I go to a song circle and spend the whole evening just wanting to go home.

The last time I was criticized in a song circle was about a year ago. I wanted to turn to the woman, tell her "Fuck you," and walk out - but no, I sat with my embarrassment without saying anything until the circle ended. And I still resent her.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Bert
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 03:06 AM

At singarounds, encouragement is more important than criticism. Singers can improve with encouragement.

If you feel that criticism is necessary then it should always be kind.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 02:39 PM

It's worth remembering that song traditions used to be gerontocracies. IE., the older you were, the higher your status within the group. Therefore, it would not have seemed at all out of place for established singers to give free and pointed criticism to younger singers.

Whereas today, Elizabeth LaPrelle and Julie Fowlis are both a lot younger and quite a bit more talented than the average Mudcatter. Maybe it behooves older folkies to give respect where it's due to younger performers?

People on the folk scene who have spent 50 years not learning how to be polite, constructive, friendly and appreciative are more of a problem for its continued viability than the occasional talentless newbie.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 02:26 PM

About a year ago I sang one of my own songs at our local club. One of the respected members said to me on the side that he liked the song but felt it was too long (chorus + 4 verses). I took on board what he said and re-visited the lyrics at home.
After some shimmying around I decided that, while he had a valid point, by reducing the verses to 3 the story lost something.
Although I still sing the song as originally written, I valued his comment and was glad he felt that I was approachable on the subject.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 12:06 PM

Most of the sessions I attend are Bluegrass-oriented, where the emphasis is more on picking and strumming than singing. Partly as a result, you have a wide variety ranging from outstanding singers to those who can barely carry a tune. Often the tempo, chord progressions, and verse changes in the song are tied closely to the vocal. I encourage all singers to sing with gusto, even the bad ones, partly because the music is tied to the vocal and needs to be heard, but also because even bad singers like to sing. My motto regarding singing is "if you are going to fail, fail boldly". What's surprising to me is, when some bad singers are encouraged to do it with gusto, their confidence increases and they improve tremendously. Others never will. But any ongoing jam or song circle is a little community, and tolerating shortcomings is partly an act of kindness that tends to bond the group. Now, if we were strictly vocalizing, and if harmonies were jarred apart by someone off key, I might feel differently.
Regarding notes, songs on paper, yes I do that. It is one way to try out new material, play a song with lots of verses (even my own songs), and bring some variety to a jam. If you rely on memory only, and you attend a weekly jam, the song selection can get pretty repetitious pretty fast. And what's a jam if not a place to try things out? It's not a performance where professionalism and your reputation are at stake.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 12:00 PM

sorry , that was a quote from fred, i did not make it clear


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 11:15 AM

Richard, Dick's quoting Fred.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 11:14 AM

From my own experience, I would say that not everyone has a gift of singing, and do it well, but given considerable time, perseverance , and the right exercises, anyone can achieve it.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 09:13 AM

That's complete rubbish, Dick, not everybody can sing well. I'm just lucky to have two good singers in my band to cover for me. And nerves can get anybody's pitch, even very good singers - which is why I like to build an occasional quiet chord into a mostly unaccompanied intro, just to make sure.

And when arranging things it is useful to check with an instrument you pitch at the end of an unaccompanied song in case it has shifted - in which case you have a clue in which direction to change the pitch of the arrangement.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 07:04 AM

Never thought I'd see this thread again!

Now it can be told...
- I started it.
- The criticism (which came after I sang Craigie Hill, hence the name) knocked my confidence for quite some time.
- I still think it could have been delivered more sensitively, but if I'm honest I probably would have reacted badly to criticism in any form.
- I think now I shouldn't have been nearly so precious about it; as gnomic Dave said upthread, saying "I accept the criticism, but was it right to say it?" isn't actually accepting the criticism!
- I did learn from it (eventually), particularly about the relationship between pitching and delivery & the need to 'nail' every note when singing unaccompanied (as opposed to just vocalising & thinking of the right note).
- The last time I saw him, the guy who criticised me in the first place complimented me on my pitching.

A sad footnote: the last time I saw the guy really was the last, as it was Dave Eckersley (aka Dave Herron), who left us, far too soon, earlier this year. I wish I'd listened to him more while I had the chance.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Rumncoke
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 06:21 AM

I did once ask an obviously really nervous new singer to sing with me, and asked if they wouldn't mind singing lower as I just don't have a soprano range.

She was trying to sing so high - out of nerves I think, that she struggling to reach two or three notes, which strained her voice and affected the volume too.

If you can guide rather than criticise it builds up confidence rather than reduces it.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 12:36 PM

Everybody can sing and sing well. It's just that a lot of people on the singaround circuit are too lazy or inconsiderate to make the best use of whatever talent they've got.
very good point, however I have noticed that in guest booking clubs, in contast to singers only clubs, performers tend to try and up their game, when good quality guests are booked, all the more reason for some of these singers clubs to occasionally book a quality guest.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 12:29 PM

I don't recall seeing this thread before and I'm certainly not going to wade through it now. However, how do you think traditional singers learned? They learned by listening to their previous generation and accepting whatever criticism came their way. It's worth remembering that song traditions used to be gerontocracies. IE., the older you were, the higher your status within the group. Therefore, it would not have seemed at all out of place for established singers to give free and pointed criticism to younger singers.

Unfortunately, in this case at any rate, we're living in a more egalitarian society, where it would be considered rude to offer such advice, however politely it was intended.

So that's problem number one.

Problem number 2 is that some people just don't want to learn. I've known singers who've been performing for forty odd years and still make the same basic mistakes. Invariably, that is because they don't want to improve and if you ask them they usually say "we're just having a bit of fun". Well, I'm sorry but, if you can't be bothered to give it your best shot, please don't aim it down my lughole!

Against that, I occasionally find singers who are keen to learn, but who maybe lack confidence or haven't resolved the problems of breath or pitch control or whatever.

The way forward is to offer them encouragement and appreciation. Then, when the time is right, say something like "That was great, but wouldn't the audience find it easier if you took a breath at the end of a line instead of in the middle?.

Everybody can sing and sing well. It's just that a lot of people on the singaround circuit are too lazy or inconsiderate to make the best use of whatever talent they've got.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Nottveeverynight
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 09:00 AM

I really appreciate the one or two brave souls who've given me helpful advice atsingarounds. I think sometimes I perform very well and generally reasonably well but also as I get older I can completely cock up something I've really sweated over for months.At times I deliberately seek out help from a singer I have heard and rate highly.However some offhand remark like Don't give up the day job is downright nasty and unnecessary.

I would love it if some singarounds met for learning sessions.

I tried a singing teacher but he seemed to have no real feeling for folk


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:07 PM

Thanks a bunch John
Sorry - you responded to him last - your baby!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM

I give in. Your argument does not gently stray from the point but gallops into far counties. I will leave it to Jim Carroll.
john


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:10 PM

Presumably,The same as the one you are on since you kindly lent me a guitar when I was doing a gig at Kiveton Park Folk club


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 06:31 AM

GSS what planet are you on?


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 04:28 AM

john charles, people have walked out of Vin Garbutt concerts because whilst on stage he stated his   views on abortion, other members of the audience [who were against abortion clapped enthusistically in response to those songs],these are facts that are generally known on the uk folk scene., there was no suggestion on my part that anyone walked out of a Vin Garbutt concert because of poor performance, he is in my opinion a great entertainer who has a right to make his points even if i do not agree with him, my response was not to walk out but not to clap.
I have not criticised anyone, but I am using the case to illustrate a point, audiences do not clap equally,, particularly if a performer is making a political point or a point of social comment.
I had a similiar experience many years ago at RAF BRIZE NORTON,I sang a song that criticised the falklands war, I noticed one guy not clapping during the break he had a go at me about the song.
I have not criticised Vin Garbutt, neither do I subscribe to a dogma, I believe it is a good thing that people can air their political views whilst on stage, if people agree or disagree they show it by either enthusiastic applause or little applause or even occasionally walking out.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:41 AM

GSS your dogmatism too often leads you to go over the top in discussions on this forum. Your invidious naming of performers is objectionable. How would you feel if it was your name that was being criticised in a similar manner.
john


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 07:54 PM

I had a moment of illumination myself this evening. Look at it from the point of view of the aspiring singer - assume for the moment that he/she is a really good aspiring singer, talent in the raw, a mute inglorious Milton & so forth. If you're this singer, what do you want? Obviously you want encouragement. You want to be told what to do and what not to do - possibly including not doing some things you now do - but you want to get the news in an encouraging way: e.g. "that's great, but have you thought of not putting on a fake Tim Hart accent?" You don't want to be told you were buggering up the song, because that would knock your confidence horribly. In other words, you won't get anything useful from being told you were buggering up the song - even if you were.

So the best way to deal with (potentially) good singers is to encourage them, even when they're not doing terribly well - if you discourage singers-to-be, by giving them full and frank feedback on their perforamnce, they will never develop into the singers they had the potential to be. The best way to deal with no-hopers may be to be brutally frank - but how do you know when you're listening to a no-hoper, as opposed to a singer-to-be having an off day? To be on the safe side, it's best to be encouraging to no-hopers as well.

In short, I think we should encourage everyone: it'll help the good singers develop, and it won't make any difference to the no-hopers - they'll just bumble along whatever you do.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 07:40 PM

Well, I've got through a singaround without anyone criticising me or saying anything nasty, partly (perhaps) as a result of operating on the Desiderata principle - i.e. if you think somebody's likely to be negative, just sit next to somebody else. So I'm happy. So much so that I'm retiring this pseudonym with immediate effect (not before time). The rest is silence.


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Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM

"I am sure audiences can tell the difference between good and bad singers the point is they clap for everyone because they are well mannered, which is really what this thread started out discussing."
   no , they do not clap equally that is not true, in fact some audiences have been known to walk out of Vin Garbutt Concerts in the past, some members of the audience have stayed but not applauded, likewise some people do not clap fox hunting songs and some come up and talk to the singer about the subject in the break, no audiences vary very much.
in my experience audiences[and i have attended folk venues since 1965] do not clap equally for every song, i remember one man calling out judas to bob dylan


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