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BS: chemical weapons in Syria

Airymouse 24 Aug 13 - 04:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Aug 13 - 05:17 PM
bobad 24 Aug 13 - 05:20 PM
bobad 24 Aug 13 - 05:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Aug 13 - 09:43 PM
Bobert 24 Aug 13 - 10:06 PM
akenaton 25 Aug 13 - 04:24 AM
GUEST 25 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,kendall 25 Aug 13 - 06:36 AM
GUEST 25 Aug 13 - 06:52 AM
bobad 25 Aug 13 - 08:41 AM
Little Hawk 25 Aug 13 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Aug 13 - 09:08 AM
Airymouse 25 Aug 13 - 09:23 AM
akenaton 25 Aug 13 - 12:20 PM
Bobert 25 Aug 13 - 12:35 PM
akenaton 25 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM
akenaton 25 Aug 13 - 05:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Aug 13 - 06:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM
kendall 25 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM
Songwronger 25 Aug 13 - 10:45 PM
GUEST,kendall 26 Aug 13 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,kendall 26 Aug 13 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Aug 13 - 01:39 PM
akenaton 26 Aug 13 - 05:22 PM
Songwronger 26 Aug 13 - 10:21 PM
GUEST 26 Aug 13 - 11:42 PM
Songwronger 27 Aug 13 - 12:00 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Aug 13 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,Teribus 27 Aug 13 - 05:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Aug 13 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 27 Aug 13 - 07:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Aug 13 - 07:47 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Teribus 27 Aug 13 - 08:34 AM
beardedbruce 27 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM
bobad 27 Aug 13 - 08:48 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 08:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Aug 13 - 08:55 AM
bobad 27 Aug 13 - 08:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Aug 13 - 09:28 AM
bobad 27 Aug 13 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 10:27 AM
bobad 27 Aug 13 - 11:06 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Aug 13 - 12:35 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Aug 13 - 02:57 PM
akenaton 27 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Aug 13 - 05:09 PM
bobad 27 Aug 13 - 05:36 PM
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Subject: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Airymouse
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 04:43 PM

I have a friend who is a well-known biochemist. I told him that I was puzzled by the need to determine whether or not the recent attack in Syria was an attack using chemical weapons. I asked him if he could think of anything other than chemical weapons, or a neutron warhead, that could cause the death of a great many people within minutes without trauma. He was stumped. Aljezeera quotes a British representative to the U.N. as saying that the probability of the opposition carrying out an "attack of this scope is vanishing to near zero." So my questions are if it wasn't Assad who did it, who else could have done it; and if it wasn't chemical warfare, what could it have been?

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:17 PM

A nightmareish black propaganda exercise, perhaps organised by Al Qaeda, designed to get effective foreign military support in overthrowing the Secular Assad regime is being suggested.

It doesn't sound too likely. On the other hand for the Assad regime to have done this would make no sense at all. Nothing whatsoever to gain, and everything to lose.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:20 PM

The Russians agree with your assessment McGofH, but then they support Assad:

Materials implicating Syrian govt in chemical attack prepared before incident – Russia

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 05:25 PM

If the "West" is going to intervene they better make bloody sure they know who did it.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 09:43 PM

Not really my "assessment", bodad. Where the truth lies is beyond me to make any judgement. There are two theories, and both of them seem equally hard to believe. It would be extraordinarily difficult to organise an operation like this by an element of the opposition, and at the same time it is hardly believable that Assad's people could have carried out something potentially so damaging to their interests, with no discernible advantage to them.

It's true enough that the Russians support Assad's regime, but equally true that statements by Hague (and others) reflect fixed hostility to it.

The one thing that appears clear is that there are some very unpleasant and untrustworthy people on both sides.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 13 - 10:06 PM

Here's the real deal...

Ain't no party in Syria that I'd trust any further than I could throw them... Don't pick sides... Just disable their WMDs and call it a day... I'd hate to have the guns we gave someone one day being fired at us... Remember this : We trained and armed the Taliban...


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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 04:24 AM

I agree with Mr McGrath, I doubt that the Islamist elements amongst the "rebels" would intentionally carry out such an attack, and it seems inconceivable that the regime would do so under the present circumstances....the "war" being won, inspectors on the ground, and the effect on world opinion.

I though perhaps, if the rebel forces had a cache of chemical weapons, taken at an earlier date and concealed in the area now under conflict, the cache may have been hit in the "sustained barrage" of conventional shelling.

Does that seem plausible?

Whatever happens, the worst possible option would be strikes by the West.......Remember IRAQ?

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:10 AM

As long as 'intelligence' comes from the US, we know it will be to the benefit of the US and its geopolitical plans. The US cannot be trusted. It killed its own kids to invade Iraq over Bush, Wolfowitz and Cheney's WMDs and that was nowt but lies. No thank you Mr Obama. You're just another mouthpiece for The New American Century.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:36 AM

In order for us to remain in the war business, we need an enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:52 AM

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:41 AM

The alternative is to sit back and watch as countless numbers of innocent people are gassed to death.

The world has a responsibility to protect.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 08:56 AM

The last party on Earth who would have done it would be Assad's people, since they had nothing to gain by doing it, and everything to lose by doing it.

Therefore, it is more than reasonable to conclude that it was a false flag operation carried out either by someone in the opposition forces or a covert operation by the people who wish to have an excuse to invade Syria and bring about regime change there....namely the USA, Israel, and their respective allies in the West.

The "alternative" to intervention is to stay the hell out of there and avoid turning the Syrian civil war into another western-backed takeover of a once-independent Muslim nation and another Iraq/Afghanistan-style disaster...only with far more dangerous possible consequences.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:08 AM

No need for conpiracy theories.
Assad claims rebels did it and claims to have found rebel chemical stocks.
I do not find that incredible.
I find it more credible that Assad's people did it to discourage their enemies, secure in the knowledge that everyone looked the other way when gas was used previously.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Airymouse
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 09:23 AM

I think it is now clear that the cause of the deaths and illnesses was chemical weapons, but Akenaton's idea that it may have involved the unintentional hit of a cache of such weapons hidden by the rebel forces seems plausible to me. Indeed, I have heard it said that a strike on a stockpile of such weapons might release, rather than destroy, the chemical agents. I also see that it important that the U.S. remember the moral of Aesop's fable about the boy who cried "wolf". We should remember that the Maine was blown up from the inside out and that the Lusitania was carrying weapons. More recently, there is the Gulf of Tonkin and the hunt in Iraq for nuclear weapons (none found), which turned in to the hunt for any sort of weapon of mass destruction (none found), which turned in to the hunt for biological weapons (none found), which turned in to a hunt for a deck of cards.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:20 PM

I don't think China and Russia would stand idly by while their ally was being attacked from the West.

They learned the folly of that in Libya.

Military weapons are not now the only ones in the locker.

The West wants turmoil in the Middle East at the present time, the Russians and Chinese want stability. Its all about economics.

I do think that the "Arab Spring" was encouraged and aided by the West, in full knowledge of the human catastrophe that was to follow.
Anyone with a modicum of sense knew that Western style "democracy" was impossible.

"Democracy", even our delusion of democracy cannot be transplanted.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:35 PM

If Obama was an agent for The New American Century he certainly is having a difficult time showing it... He has done everything but what the neo-cons want him to do...

Seems that he is going out of his way to keep US out of new wars...

The challenge here for the US, as well as all the colonial superpowers, is to find ways of supporting their former "client nations" without arming them or holding wars in their countries...

Obama is trying to find the right mix here...

Ain't no magic wands here, people...

You can hate Obama for various reasons but he has been pretty consistent with his foreign policy, which BTW for the righties here, ain't responsible for the Arab Spring any more than it is responsible for the sun coming up in the morning and setting at night...


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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 12:48 PM

I agree Bobert, I think Mr Obama has been most unwilling to be involved in Syria and Libya.

Unfortunately the Middle East Crisis seems to be being used as a weapon domestically AND internationally.

Our Mr Hague is a politician to keep an eye on, an ambitious warmonger on the political "make"

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 05:00 PM

Strange how few contributions to this thread.
The circumstances and the outcome could be extremely serious, yet no one appears to be overly concerned.

The media here is pushing for "targeted strikes" against military installations by long range ballistic missiles, as the use of aircraft is deemed too risky......I don't think that was printed with any irony intended.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 06:41 PM

akenaten's suggestion does have the merit that if it's possible that it could have happened that way, it doesn't sound implausible, unlike the other two which I mentioned. The question is whether an accidental hit on a store of chemical weapons in the course of a bombardment could have these consequences. In principle it should be possible for the inspectors to determine that, and whether it appears to have happened.

Such a store could either be one set up by rebels, or possibly a previously existing government storage facility.

And there is a real danger that even if such an accidental explosion was the cause, there are people, in Syria and elsewhere, who positively want to see outside military engagement escalated, as a way to achieve political objectives.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:00 PM

To clarify, "accidental explosion" in this context means a conventional ( and intentional) explosion, if it had an unintended consequence of dispersing a store of toxic chemicals.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 07:55 PM

Mark my words, our war mongers will get us into another un winable war. That 39 billion the Halliburton made over there is probably gone by now.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Aug 13 - 10:45 PM

Obama is Muslim, hence his reluctance to attack Muslim countries. He picks off Believers here and there with his drones, but the leaders of the Muslim world know he has to put on SOME show for the home crowd.

I just hope he refrains from involving the U.S. military in a major new war. It's the one good thing he's done.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:36 AM

HE IS NOT A MUSLIM. That uprising in Syria is a battle between Shiites and Sunnis. They both hate us, we can not win and he knows it.
We armed the Taliban, remember?

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That's easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for their lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
It works in any country." (Hermann Goering)

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 07:38 AM

Anyone who knows anything knows that any Muslim who embraces another religion is automatically marked for assassination. He's still alive.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 01:39 PM

"Anyone who knows anything knows that any Muslim who embraces another religion is automatically marked for assassination"
The only reference I can find to this is un the Ultra-Right 'Muslim Watch- web-page - maybe I've missed something.
Do you have any evidence to show that this is the case?
Jim Carroll

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:22 PM

Whether or not Mr Obama is a Muslim, is of little or no importance.
As far as I can see the US is preparing its people for an illegal attack on Syria.
Mr Kerry has just been on TV building the case for military strikes, before the inspectors have produced any all smells strongly of IRAQ.
They seem to be building their case on the belief that only the Assad regime has the capability to deliver the weapons to their target, they ignore the point that it would be completely against the regimes interests to provoke retaliation from the West, or the idea that the weapons may already have been in the hands of the "rebels" before being detonated by a conventional explosive device.

Kerry's rhetoric was strong and warlike, but the hypocrisy of America's support for the military coup in Egypt after the massacre of hundreds of civilians just a couple of weeks ago, cannot be concealed.

Get out on the streets people, like we did before Iraq, but this time don't trust the lying bastards.

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Subject: BS: Obama + Syria Intervention = Impeachment
From: Songwronger
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 10:21 PM

A new Reuters/Ipsos poll has finally found something that Americans like even less than Congress: the possibility of U.S. military intervention in Syria. Only 9 percent of respondents said that the Obama administration should intervene militarily in Syria...

The Reuters/Ipsos poll was taken Aug.19-23, the very same week that horrific reports emerged strongly suggesting that Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad has used chemical weapons against his own people, potentially killing hundreds or even thousands of civilians....

We're seeing the same BS justifications for war in Syria that we've seen before, in other wars. But no one is buying the lies this time. Obama's whole administration has been built on lies, but this would be a lie too far. He will be impeached if he attacks Syria.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 11:42 PM

Polls say that the majority of US citizens are against intervention in Syria - which means the US will probably get involved. After the Sandy Hook shootings, the majority of US citizens were for background checks when purchasing guns and that didn't influence governmental policy either ....

Secretary Kerry's hypocrisy is hard to stomach. In his speech re Syria he talked about the Syrian government's need for transparency, accountability, and a "moral compass." None of these things are evident in the US drone strike program the Obama administration has been conducting. Before the US starts lecturing other countries on what they should be doing, it should get its own house in order first. Otherwise, it doesn't have an ethical leg to stand on, and Kerry's speech comes off as jingoistic chest thumping. Physician, heal thyself seems appropriate here.

More likely, it'll be "Well, here's another fine mess you've got us into, Ollie." (with deep and abiding respect for Laurel and Hardy's acute understanding of US foreign policy)

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Songwronger
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:00 AM

No. Obama will be impeached.

The country is tired of his endless race-baiting, his failed economics, his trampling of the constitution.

Unless his NSA spy program bears fruit (dirty secrets to be used against congress), he will be shat out like the thing he is.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 04:32 AM

(Drift ~~ in interests of accuracy)

GUEST ~~ it was Ollie to Stan, not vice versa, who always said "Another NICE mess you've got me into". That "Fine" is one of the common misquotations, exacerbated by the fact that one of their early shorts was for some reason titled "Another Fine Mess" (1930).


Apologies for such a drift on a thread on a very serious topic. But, as ever, accuracy matters.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 05:46 AM

Those postulating that one side or the other would never do this or that assume that both sides have got and can exercise full control of those fighting on their behalf - this is a mistake because, put as simply as possible, they don't exercise anything like that degree of control.

A hit by an artillery or rocket barrage on a rebel chemical weapons storage site? Doubtful, because chemical and biological munitions are normally stored unarmed, the weaponised agents are only filled into the warheads, shells and mortar rounds immediately prior to use (Remember the 45 minute claim? That is what that was all about) - How do you destroy chemical or biological agents? Extreme heat - very few things get more extreme in temperature than being at the centre of a high explosive detonation - the weaponised agents would be destroyed if their storage vessels were ruptured.

Everybody is going on about this latest attack as being the first - It is not I believe that it is the fourth reported instance - the reason the UN weapons inspectors are in the country is because they have a mandate to inspect the sites of the first three attacks, not this latest one.

To answer the question posed by the opening post:

"I asked him if he could think of anything other than chemical weapons, or a neutron warhead, that could cause the death of a great many people within minutes without trauma."

1: Indirect concussive blast or shock wave
2: Asphyxiation caused by an explosion and fireball robbing a space of oxygen.

Both of the above were noted to have occurred in cellars during the allied bombing attack on Hamburg in 1943. The bodies found did not bear a mark on them.

It will be interesting to know what chemical or biological agent was used, if it proves to be VX then there will be some extremely red
faces around, as in that part of the world VX could only have come from one source - Iraq.

If the Syrian Government is responsible and it is decided to mount a targeted response, then do whatever it takes to assassinate Assad himself - the ensuing leadership squabble should impede any activities of the pro-government side. But better by far just to stay clear of it, we would be damned either way, it is a no-win situation. It is their fight so let them get on with it - or better still let Russia and China step up to the mark and end it - but there is about as much chance of that happening as there are of pigs flying.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 07:07 AM

I would think it likely that an attempt to assassinate Assad could well have the reverse effect, and rather than impeding military activities could serve to escalate them, even if it disrupted them.

I cannot see how any plausible military intervention could have any significant effect in reducing civilian suffering in Syria, rather than the reverse (as happened in Iraq). Basically it would be a political gesture for internal domestic purposes. Public relations.

The same sequence of events seems to be operating as in the build up to the Iraq War. Demands for inspection, followed by the claim that inspection is inadequate, followed by escalation before the inspection has been carried through, and a rush to war.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 07:09 AM

Surely, the Syrian and all other similar civil conflicts that go out of control are problems the UNITED NATIONS should be called upon to bring to and end, not individual nations. I was under the impression that was the "raison d`etre" of the U.N.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 07:47 AM

Part of the problem that gets in the way of any United Nations role is what happened with Libya. The Russians and Chinese went along with a restrained Security Council resolutiion about preventing civilian casualties, and then it was used as a cover for military involvement to escalate the war and bring regime change. (Essentially the same thing that had happened in the case of Iraq.)

Even if the outcome in Libya was a good one - and that word "if" is the crucial one, the regime that operates in Libya is decidedly dodgy, and some consequences in other places, such as Mali have been disastrous - the results in the Security Council have not been at all good. They mean that virtually any restraining resolution is out of the question, because of fear that it will be used in the same way.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:18 AM

It's just been announced that UN attempts to inspect for traces of chemical weapon use have been abandoned because of five days of obstructive delays and sniper fire.
Pity Syria has no oil resources worth speaking of - if they had, the US and their cronies would have been in there like rats up drainpipes "keeping the world safe for democracy!!"
".....Muslim who embraces another religion is automatically marked for assassination"
Seems we cleared up the question of whether defectors to the Muslim religion face assassination!!
Jim Carroll

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:34 AM

"Surely, the Syrian and all other similar civil conflicts that go out of control are problems the UNITED NATIONS should be called upon to bring to and end, not individual nations. I was under the impression that was the "raison d`etre" of the U.N." - John from Kemsing

The only means the UNITED NATIONS has at its beck and call to bring anything to an end is the verbosity of its members representatives. The United Nations is a talking shop, nothing more, nothing less.

So far they can talk about it all they like, the veto power of Russia and China blocks any good that the UN might have been able to do, not surprising that really as both of those states do not want to set uncomfortable precedents as they may wish to attack sections of their own populations before too long - (Sorry what was that you said? - Oh yes, Chechnya, Dagestan and Tibet I had forgotten all about them).

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:36 AM

Cleared up? DId you bother to even look???

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ردة‎ riddah, literally means: "relapse" or "regress" but usually translates to "apostasy", or ارتداد irtidād) is commonly defined in Islam as the rejection in word or deed of one's former religion (apostasy) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they do not rebel against the Islamic society or religion.[1] The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.[2][3][4] Several contemporary Muslim scholars, including influential Islamic reformers have rejected this, arguing for religious freedom instead.[3][5][6][7] Converts from Islam to Christianity have likewise criticized the traditional position.[8] According to Islamic law apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God, rejecting the prophets, mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting the sharia, or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery or the eating of forbidden foods or drinking of alcoholic beverages.[9][10]

"Undeniably, the traditional position of Muslim scholars and jurists has been that apostasy [riddah] is punishable by death. The longstanding problem of the traditional position, as held by Classical jurists or scholars, can be explained and excused as not being able to see apostasy, an issue of pure freedom of faith and conscience, separate from treason against the community or the state. However, the accumulated experience over the history in terms of abuse of this position about apostasy even against Muslims as well as the changed context of a globally-connected, pluralistic society should help us appreciate the contemporary challenges in light of the Qur'anic norms and the Prophetic legacy. In this context, while the classical misunderstanding about this issue of apostasy is excusable, the position of some of the well-known contemporary scholars is not.

Sayyid Abul A'la Maududi (commonly known as Maulana Maududi), the late founder and leader of Jamaat-e-Islami and a leading independent, revivalist Islamic personality of 20th century, is frequently referred to for his ardent argument for capital punishment for apostasy. He argued that there is a broad agreement of the leading jurists on this issue. He claims:

"To copy the consecutive writings of all the lawyers from the first to the fourteenth century A.H. would make our discussion very long. Yet we cannot avoid mentioning that however much the four Schools of Law may differ among themselves regarding the various aspects of this problem, in any case all four Schools without doubt agree on the point that the punishment of the apostate is execution." [The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law]"

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:48 AM

Ah Bruce, that can't be true - that must be more of that ultra right wing, Islamophobic product of the Zionist cabal that we all know controls the press, the internet, international finance and the US government.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:49 AM

"Did you bother to even look???"
Did you - or did you only look where it suited you?
Jim Carroll

From "The Holy Bible"

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
    You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
    A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
    1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
    2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
    If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
    A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
    Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
    But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
    1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
    One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
    1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

    2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
    So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
    For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
    The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)


2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats
    From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God Kills the Curious
    And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?   (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion
    Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Killing the Good Samaritan
    The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
    When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)


3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners
    Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
    The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
    And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women
    "You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
    (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
    If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)


4) Miscellaneous Murders

More of Samson's Murders
    (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

Peter Kills Two People
    There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened.   (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

Mass Murder
    This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'   (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

You Have to Kill
    Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

The Danites Kill the Next Town
    But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)

God Kills Some More
    Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

God Promises More Killing
    I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

The Angel of Death
    My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)

Destruction of Ai
    Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.
    Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.
    Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.
    When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)

Killing at Jericho
    When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

God Kills an Extended Family
    "You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

Mass Murder
    The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

The Angel of Death
    That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

Kill Your Neighbors
    (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Kill the Family of Sinners
    And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)

Kill Followers of Other Religions
    While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

    At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

Kill All of Babylon
    "Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction".   (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Micah Kills a Whole Town
    Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:55 AM

Essentially the same attitude towards apostasy, and even towards heresy has held within Christianity, and plenty of examples of it happening. The point isn't whether historical approval for it can't be readily found, but whether it is what consistently happens here and now.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 08:55 AM

Right on cue comes the ol' biblical false equivalence argument.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:28 AM

I didn't even mention the Bible.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 09:31 AM

If you note the time of the posts you will see that mine was not in reference to yours.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 10:27 AM

"but whether it is what consistently happens here and now."
Exactly - I knew dozens of lapsed Muslims in London - and not one of them had been assassinated, not even once.
This forum is rapidly being infested by phobes who will use any thread to give vent to their particular brand of phobia - murdered British soldiers, besieged Arabs, massacred refugees... you name it.
It really is time...
Outraged from Tunbridge Wells

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 11:06 AM

Some numbers to ponder on the support for the killing of apostates in various Muslim countries. Note the absence of countries like Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Libya, Syria etc. in the polling data.

Pew: 64% of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support death penalty for leaving Islam

"This loathsome term [Islamophobia] is nothing more than a thought-terminating cliche conceived in the bowels of Muslim think tanks for the purpose of beating down critics."
-Abdur-Rahman Muhammad, Muslim, Ex-Cleric.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 12:35 PM

A loathsome term for a loathsome thing. Here's a story about an example of it in the town where I live:
Harlow mosque hit by arson attack

The "mosque" in question is a little community centre in a residential estate. Last year it was the scene of a funeral for the wife and five children of a local doctor who is Moslem, after they were killed when their house was the target of an arsonist.

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 02:57 PM

"Abdur-Rahman Muhammad"
is that Abdur-Rahman Muhammad the sex fiend?
Oh dear - little BuBu has put yet another one past his own goalkeeper!
Pew: 64% of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support death penalty for leaving Islam
About that number in Britain supports the death penalty, and/or castrating rapists, believes homosexuals are either sick or have made a personal choice on the sexuality and are a health risk to the rest of us, admit to having racist opinions (well over %64 on this), thik foreigners are inferior, believe Britannia rules the waves (oh, and voted for Thatcher)
None of this bigotry is enshrined in British law, just as leaving Islam does not carry the death penalty.
And Thatcher was kicked out of Downing Street on her arse
What's your point

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

Somehow, I don't think we are addressing the subject of this thread with sufficient gravity.

We could be looking at the start of the last war on planet Earth and you argue about "human rights"......I suppose that's par for the course.

The rhetoric is almost exactly the same as the lead up to Iraq, but the stakes are many times higher.

Teribus...munitions experts on BBC have just said that missile attacks on chemical warfare stores are unlikely, as they would be extremely risky due to "wind drift" of vaporised chemicals, which could kill thousands of civilians.
This would reinforce my guess that last week's "chemical attack" by the regime, was possibly an "accident",
This view is certainly more plausible than a deliberate attack by Mr Assad's regime on non-combatants, at a time when they appear to be winning by conventional means?

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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 05:09 PM

"leaving Islam does not carry the death penalty."

Over-assertive,Jim; & highly dubious --

"Some states in northern Nigeria have reintroduced Sharia courts. In practice the new Sharia courts in Nigeria have most often meant the reintroduction of relatively harsh punishments without respecting the much tougher rules of evidence and testimony of regular courts. The punishments include amputation of one/both hand(s) for theft, stoning for adultery, and execution for apostasy." Wikipedia.

"And Thatcher was kicked out of Downing Street on her arse"

Oh, most charmingly put. Why, what a vindictive little vulgarian it is, to be sure!

"What's your point"

What's yours, for that matter?

Regards as ever


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Subject: RE: BS: chemical weapons in Syria
From: bobad
Date: 27 Aug 13 - 05:36 PM

Apostasy in the penal code of Iran:

Article 26 of the Press Code of 1985 expressly states: "Anybody who insults
Islam and its sanctities by means of the press, amounting to apostasy, shall receive the sentence
for apostasy..." However, the applicable IPC has not defined apostasy nor has it stipulated
any punishment for it. Nevertheless, Article 214 of the Criminal Procedure Code, which has
incorporated the provisions of Article 167 of the Constitution almost verbatim, has given
judges a free hand
. Thus, judges have invoked the said Article 214 to mete out the death
sentence in many apostasy cases on the basis of the views of Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder
of the IRI
. In his book, Ayatollah Khomeini declares that only three groups of people are
recognised outside of Islam, who should pay a specific tax,
, if they wish to live under
the Islamic rule: Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians. He expressly declares: "Nothing shall be
accepted from others outside of those three groups but Islam
or death

Source:International Federation for Human Rights

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