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BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Stringsinger 06 May 13 - 10:11 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 May 13 - 10:38 AM
Ebbie 06 May 13 - 10:59 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM
bobad 06 May 13 - 01:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM
Bill D 06 May 13 - 08:51 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 13 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 13 - 03:27 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 03:59 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 13 - 04:03 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 04:27 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 13 - 04:38 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 04:52 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 13 - 07:16 PM
bobad 11 May 13 - 07:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 02:49 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 03:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 04:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 05:43 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 13 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 08:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 May 13 - 10:37 AM
Stringsinger 12 May 13 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 11:45 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 12:14 PM
Jim Carroll 12 May 13 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 02:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 13 - 03:05 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 03:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 13 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 05:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 13 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 13 - 08:20 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 13 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Wente 13 May 13 - 03:11 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 03:26 PM
Stringsinger 13 May 13 - 04:38 PM
bobad 13 May 13 - 04:55 PM
Greg F. 13 May 13 - 06:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 May 13 - 06:46 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 06:52 PM
bobad 13 May 13 - 07:08 PM
Steve Shaw 13 May 13 - 07:15 PM
Greg F. 13 May 13 - 09:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 13 - 02:54 AM
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Subject: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:11 AM

Here's the text which would ordinarily ask for subscription costs.
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A different kind of Israeli: Prof. Raphi Walden on why the Jewish people stopped caring

Walden, co-chairperson of Physicians for Human Rights, says that Israeli leaders cynically exploit our fears in order to stay in power. Still, he has not lost hope for peace.

By Ayelett Shani |
Haaretz: Apr.25, 2013
We are meeting on Holocaust Remembrance Day. I know that you have an extraordinary Holocaust-related story.

I was born in France. During the war, my family and I resided in a small village under an assumed identity and with false papers. We were certain no one knew. One day, a neighbor came running over and told us, "Be careful, the Germans are coming." And then we discovered that everyone knew.

They knew and said nothing.

Yes. I have just come from the ceremony at the hospital, where I told that story. On the way, I heard Moshe Arens being asked on the radio what the lesson of the Holocaust is. He replied, "The lesson is that we have to be strong." I say the lesson of the Holocaust that we have to be strong and firm has already been internalized. The true lesson is that we must be compassionate and attentive, as we expected the Gentiles to be compassionate toward us, but found that this was not the case.

The Holocaust taught your family compassion and solidarity. Those values were implanted in you.

They were implanted in me, but this matter is not confined to my personal story. These are Jewish values. Obligation to strangers is mentioned 36 times in the Torah, far more times than Shabbat observance, keeping kosher and the like. Yet you see what is happening today, when people who declare themselves to be the keepers of the "embers" of Judaism are so fundamentally opposed to Jewish humanism. That saddens me very much.

What happened to Jewish humanism? Where did it vanish to?

Jewish humanism became self-defensive. We are still behaving here as though we were in a Diaspora shtetl, and have to beware the goyim who are out to attack us. Hence the emphasis on force, power, toughness.

How much weight do you think governmental rhetoric has in this game? One of today's headlines is: "Netanyahu: Never again a Holocaust, I promise."

I think that is a twisted use of the Holocaust. Like frightening us with all kinds of Iranian threats, or by warning that a million Africans will invade Israel − this is actually a primitive method to keep the masses of the people of Israel in a state of constant fear: If they do not heed the strong leader, a second Holocaust will befall us. The leadership assiduously cultivates, maintains and preserves this Holocaust neurosis, because it is its device for staying in power.

Is it a right-wing device?

It is unequivocally a right-wing device.

Your detractors will say that you are representing the left and living in a bubble with them. Are you sure Israel is in such a strong position?

Stronger than most Western countries. And even the threats that do exist against us do not justify the Holocaust fear that hangs over us like a Damoclean sword. That is intimidation. I would say that it is a cynical exploitation of the fears that nest in everyone. Instead of a sagacious leader showing the way, our leaders nourish these fears.

Like a kind of opium for the masses.

There is no easier way to unite the masses than by depicting an enemy who is out to destroy us.

And one of the results of this approach, you believe, is our attitude toward the refugees.

In our work with the refugees in Physicians for Human Rights, we encounter dramatic human situations. You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please with the Eritreans. It's an unfathomable situation.

Not so many years ago, people dressed in black with side curls and speaking a strange language knocked on doors and wanted to cross the border into Switzerland. They were turned back and ended their lives in Auschwitz. Where is Jewish compassion? How have we failed to learn that what was done to us, we must not do to others? It is so important for our leadership to strike a posture of force that compassion was simply erased.

That narrative of forcefulness has always existed here.

But now we are in a position to allow ourselves to be compassionate. We are strong enough to have compassion.

Physicians for Human Rights is like a prosthesis for the health establishment: you treat those whom the system ignores.

We treat a population that no one else deals with. They are people without status. The refugees are here, whether we like it or not. The National Health Law stipulates that people who are in critical condition must be treated. But what about people who suffer from chronic illnesses, such as diabetes, and don't have money to buy medicines? Or who need an operation?

We also have a problem of a poor population in this country, people who live on National Insurance allowances and have to decide between medicines and food. The situation is particularly dire for elderly people who have a long list of medicines because, even if they are cheap, it adds up to amounts which they cannot afford. We are here for them, and we also hold a public dialogue with the decision makers in these areas.

And also in regard to political issues.

Indeed. We fight the occupation fiercely and consider it the mother of all sins. We work both at the public level and the grass-roots level. Every Shabbat, a group of physicians and nurses goes to the territories.

A kind of mobile clinic.

Yes. We also take a mobile drugstore and distribute medicines free. The Palestinians are desperately poor. They have no industry and their labor market − Israel − is blocked to them.

How are you received there?

With great love. We arrive in a village or town and are usually met by the mayor or mukhtar. We exchange greetings, have a coffee and get to work. For the most part we set ourselves up in a school or a community center, and each of us treats patients in his specialty; there's a dermatologist, internist, orthopedist, etc.

We see about 400 patients on an average day − 400 people who, for the first time, encounter an Israeli in an experience that is not threatening or violent.

Most of their encounters with Israelis are with the soldier − whom I also pity, spending hours at a checkpoint in the heat − who arrests them. Or the settler who chops down their olive trees; or the Shin Bet security service man who pulls their father out of bed at two in the morning.

This is an opportunity for them to see a different Israeli. An Israeli with an outstretched hand. And because the 400 people have families and neighbors and friends, we touch the hearts of thousands of people. And even if we didn't change anything − and we make no pretense of changing the health situation in the West Bank, or even in a small village − we have succeeded in creating a small light at the end of the tunnel. We have performed an act of human solidarity.

The day ends with a big meal at the hosts' home in a wonderful atmosphere of jokes and joy, and we see how things could be.

But it must also be frustrating.

The truth is that we create this microcosm which, on the one hand, offers hope, but on the other produces a great deal of frustration. If only we could forgo the messianic longings of this extremist minority that is leading us to perdition.

I have met thousands of people in the 20 years in which I have been doing this. What we hear from all of them is that they want only to live in peace and raise their children. They recall nostalgically the period before the intifada, when they worked in Israel and invited their employers to family events. And when the money they made – which was, of course, the minimum wage – was like a treasure for them. With it they built homes and planted vineyards.

In those 20 years, have you ever encountered hostility?

Never.

Really?

Not even once. You remember the horrific [1994] murder perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, right? He killed almost 30 people. We were scheduled to go to the territories on the following Shabbat, but we hesitated. The whole region was like a seething cauldron. In the end we decided to go. And even on that day, we were received with boundless warmth and love.

How do you cope with the authorities, such as the army?

There are all kinds of stories. When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs. The army viewed them as a security risk and refused to authorize the visit. Three requests were rejected, but with the fourth request we succeeded − somehow the mercy of the authorities was aroused. I operated on a young man. Later, he came for a follow-up check. He was walking on two feet. I looked at him and thought of the three whose requests were turned down and lost their legs.

The state is paying, and will pay, a steep price for its shortsightedness.

Of course. Take the story of the prisoner who died in jail [Maysara Abu Hamdiyeh]. He had been suffering from throat pains since August 2012. He was diagnosed with cancer in February 2013. He was hospitalized on March 30 and died on April 2. Here you have all the wrongs in the world and also all the stupidity in the world. Cancer is not a lightning bolt. Obviously he reached the hospital in serious condition, as he died three days later. And besides that, over and above the ethical and moral aspects, a little common sense is called for. If he had been discharged four or five days earlier, he would have died at home and all the riots in the territories would not have taken place.

Where is Jewish common sense? There are all kinds of dumb bureaucracies; there were holidays and the relevant committee couldn't be convened. A few phone calls could have been made and the grievously ill man discharged.

But that is more an example of the establishment's insensitivity, not human insensitivity.

Bureaucracy leads to cruelty, too. I served in the Paratroops. I held the rank of lieutenant colonel. I was badly wounded but refused to be discharged from the army. I fought in three wars, but Avigdor Lieberman called me an accomplice to terrorism.

How did you feel when he called you that?

I thought it was foolish to view someone who criticizes you as a troublemaker for the Jews.

It's a Bolshevik way of thinking.

Exactly. My criticism comes from love. I proved my love for the country and I continue to prove it. I am not some off-the-wall leftist living in a bubble.

That was the first time the criticism of you was voiced publicly. Have you had to cope with political pressures aimed at stopping or silencing the activity of your group?

No. There was the attempt in the last Knesset to restrict the activity of human rights organizations.

Was that the only time? Have you never been personally asked to stop, to lower the group's profile?

No. No such request was ever made to me. And when I speak to people in the defense establishment about Palestinian prisoners' hunger strikes, for example, they try to help them. If those people die in jail, there really will be an intifada here.

Do you call them personally?

Of course.

At what rank?

I can't tell you. But I call people in the defense establishment with whom I have personal ties to alert them.

When you examine the big picture of what you are doing, do you feel empowered or despairing?

I do not feel despair.

How do you explain that? You are exposed to so many systemic malfunctions and unfortunate stories.

Maybe it's because I see the relations that are created between people. When I come to a Palestinian village or meet a Palestinian physician, there's this instant click that occurs in the most natural way. There are nations between which there was a fundamental, deep grudge − the French and the Germans, for example. Yet look what is happening now. We do not have such deep residues. There are, of course, dead and wounded and bereaved families on both sides, but from what I have seen for the past 20 years, human ties are forged very easily, and those ties are a foundation. I also do not think the political problems are irresolvable.

But no one wants to solve them.

That is because we are being led by the nose by an extremist minority. Look at even the economic angle. We have here a market of 3.5 million Palestinians who are making every effort not to buy Israeli products. But if there were peace, we would have a paradise here. Instead of the dire poverty and the ghettos in south Tel Aviv, people could come and earn a dignified living in construction and go back home at the end of the day.

Do you really think there is a chance, that there is hope?

I am a tour guide by training. In the Paratroops I was a brigade medic in the Jordan Rift Valley. I have been all through the valley, and Judea and Samaria. I am connected to those places. I am not one of those leftists who says these places mean nothing to them. But for the sake of peace I am willing to make this sacrifice. It is a sacrifice, and I am emotionally ready to make the sacrifice. I understand that the messianic hilltop youth expect millions of Palestinians to disappear into thin air; but there is also a large part of the public that is indifferent as long as there is no sword at its throat.

Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop. Those were our conditions.

But instead of this putting the subject on the agenda, the exact opposite happened.

That is precisely the folly of our leadership, who are worried only about their current term in office. This is as good as it will get.

Are we becoming more racist?

Without a doubt.

To what do you attribute this?

To the psychological pressure that is being implemented from above − and here I accuse the authorities harshly. The interior minister and MKs make flagrantly racist remarks and everyone takes it in their stride. Imagine if some cabinet minister abroad were to talk about Jews the way [former Interior Minister] Eli Yishai talked about the Africans. We are growing more insular and ignoring human dignity.

How do you manage to stay optimistic?

It's because I think that, basically, we have a good nation and these others are deviations and not the mainstream. I don't think there is any other concentration of over five million people with these talents anywhere else on the planet. Not in Paris and not in New York and not in Los Angeles. In art, in painting, in sculpture, in science, in research, in technology, in startups. We are in third place in the world in terms of medical devices.

We are truly overflowing with talent. Except in politics, where we are hard up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:38 AM

What a pity that there aren't many more with the courage to speak out, String, but it won't be long before this is swamped with comment from the usual bunch, calling him a liar and an antisemitic traitor.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 13 - 10:59 AM

I hope not, Don T. The world needs more people to speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 May 13 - 12:58 PM

As it stands, any hope for a Palestinian state is dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 13 - 01:22 PM

Hamas rebuffs Arabs for softening Israeli-Palestinian peace plan

By Nidal al-Mughrabi

GAZA | Fri May 3, 2013 1:39pm EDT

(Reuters) - Islamist Hamas's leader in the Gaza Strip on Friday rejected a revised Middle East peace initiative put forward by the Arab League, saying outsiders could not decide the fate of the Palestinians.

In meetings this week in Washington, Arab states appeared to soften their 2002 peace plan, acknowledging that Israelis and Palestinians may have to swap land in any eventual peace deal.

The United States and the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank praised the move. But speaking to hundreds of worshippers in a Gaza mosque, senior Hamas official Ismail Haniyeh said it was a concession that other Arabs were not authorized to make.

"The so-called new Arab initiative is rejected by our people, by our nation and no one can accept it," said Haniyeh, prime minister of the Hamas government in the coastal enclave.

"The initiative contains numerous dangers to our people in the occupied land of 1967, 1948 and to our people in exile."

He was referring to the partition of British-mandate Palestine in 1948 when the United Nations voted to divide the territory into a Jewish state and an Arab state, and to the 1967 war when Israel captured the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.

Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and claims all the territory between the Mediterranean and the Jordan river as rightfully Palestinian. It never accepted the Arab plan which was first presented in 2002.

RARE SPAT

The modified version was announced by Qatar's prime minister on Monday and Haniyeh's comments represented a rare public disagreement between Hamas and one of its main supporters.

The rich Gulf state has pledged over $400 million to fund housing projects in the Gaza Strip, which Hamas seized from the rival Palestinian Fatah faction in a brief civil war in 2007.

"To those who speak of land swaps we say: Palestine is not a property, it is not for sale, not for a swap and cannot be traded," Haniyeh said.

Haniyeh said the rival Palestinian Authority, headed by Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, was to blame for inspiring the softer Arab position because it accepted the need for land swaps with Israel.

Israel rejected the Arab peace plan when it was proposed 11 years ago. Israeli officials gave a cautious welcome to the new suggestions, but the government still objects to key points, including the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees and the creation of a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is seeking to revive direct peace talks that broke down in 2010 over the issue of Jewish settlement building in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

On Tuesday, he hailed the Arab League announcement as "a very big step forward."

However, any peace moves will have to confront the fractured Palestinian political landscape with Abbas holding sway over parts of the West Bank and Hamas firmly entrenched in Gaza. Repeated attempts by the two sides to secure a political reunification of the two territories have failed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:29 PM

He is entitled to his opinions, and no-one can stop Stringsinger filling our screens with them.

"You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please"

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.

"When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs."

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.
And, they hate Jews more even than they hated those Palestinians.

"Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop."

Maybe the bus bombs stopped because they wanted peace, but they only stopped when the wall was built.
That seems the more likely reason.

Stringsinger, your paste job reminds us that Israel is surrounded by cruel and merciless killers, and has every reason to fear being at their mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bill D
Date: 06 May 13 - 08:51 PM

Please...please...PLEASE, folks...on ALL sides..give us a summary and a LINK, not a huge copy & paste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:14 PM

It is moronic in the extreme to attempt to excuse Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses by pointing to other states and claiming that they are worse – even if it were true, such a claim would only show that Israel is yet another terrorist state with contempt for human rights and life.
In this case of course it is not true – no other state today has Israel's long running and persistent war crimes and human rights abuses record.
To single out Egypt, after having used that extremist and beleaguered regime as a defence for flooding the supply tunnels in preference to the opinion of present opposition to that regime's claims to the contrary is doubly moronic. There is no argument that the present Egyptian regime is a despotic and undemocratic one – they are the same bunch of thugs whose word was offered as justification for closing the tunnels rather than that of the present opposition, and to describe it as being "worse than Israel" is having ones cake and eating it somewhat.   
Israel's human rights abuses and war crimes are far too well known and documented to be denied; you need go no further than its long and growing list of abuses of United Nations resolutions, the consequences of which they have been persistently protected from by an equally long list of U.S. vetoes - not to mention the history of massacres and atrocities that have been reported on in the world press, including Israel's own.
We've had a long spell here of 'atrocity denial' with the individual concerned not even bothering his arse to produce either evidence to his claims or even links to his very selective quotes. Not good enough if he wants to join the 'let's re-write history club – even David Irving made an effort by actually manufacturing his 'facts' before he presented them as a historical truth.
Recently six more expert witnesses have been added to the list of those speaking out against the Israeli regime – the six former heads of Shin Beth, Israel's security organisation. Their agreement to be interviewed publicly throws open Israel's behaviour for all to see.
They all admitted freely the methods that were used to suppress opposition to the Israeli State and pleaded that there was no other choice to their actions and in fairness their case comes over as that they honestly believed that – judge for yourselves, go and see 'The Gatekeepers' – I saw it on Wednesday and it's stunning in its implications.
The final straw for them appears to have been the murder of Yitzhak Rabin; who, after a vicious campaign of mass rallies by ultra-extremist Rabbis calling for his removal, was 'removed' permanently by a young Zionist extremist – Rabin's crime – along with President Clinton he attempted to negotiate a peace with the Arabs. There was no effort made to bring those who deliberately incited his murder to justice.
The Shin Beth men all said there could be no peace in Israel without compromise on both sides and that the Israeli politicians had betrayed Israel by refusing to even consider negotiating such a peace and instead had opted for an all-out military solution aimed at all Palestinians.
Their main concern now is what Israel has now become.
The oldest (and most hard-line in defending past actions) of the Shin Beth men compared present day Israel as being indistinguishable in all but the enormity from Nazi Germany. He actually stopped in the middle of a sentence describing it as Fascist, saying it was too distressing to give voice to such a thought.
There you go Keith – a group of Israeli supporters who have devoted their lives to securing Israel's future – what do you reckon – misled, naive, anti-Semites or simply anti-Israeli liars making it all up?
I wonder how fanatics are handling the idea that Israel does not even have the mythical right to a homeland in Palestine and that it is all – well, a myth.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:27 PM

Whoops - doesn't appear to be working - try again
Jim Carroll

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 03:59 PM

Israelis and Palestinians Plant Olive Trees Together For Peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:03 PM

"Miss, Billy has been hitting me again!"

"Come here, Billy. Have you been hitting people again?"

"Yes Miss, but when I hit people I do it with my fists. When Jimmy and Johnny hit people, they do it with sticks!"

"Ah, that's fine then, Billy. Off you go and play!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:27 PM

"And tell me Billy, why have you been hitting people again?"

"It is because I was taught that these people are descended from apes and pigs and that we must kill them wherever they are found."

"Good for you then Billy, you are doing as you are taught, carry on then."


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:38 PM

"Israelis and Palestinians Plant Olive Trees Together For Peace"
Very heartening clip Bobad - "if it wasn't for the politicians in-between", as the song nearly says.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 04:52 PM

"if it wasn't for the politicians in-between"

For once something I can agree with you on - if it was up to the people, on both sides, I am sure there would have been peace long ago if, as you said "it wasn't for the politicians in-between", to which I will add and the religious extremists on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:16 PM

Religion has got nothing to do with this, despite what justifiers on both sides might like to claim. It's the usual, good old-fashioned imperialism and racism. No value judgements, except to say that the dominant parties are always better at the racism and imperialism. History, dear boy, history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 13 - 07:38 PM

"Religion has got nothing to do with this"

I beg to differ....history, dear boy, history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:49 AM

It is moronic in the extreme to attempt to excuse Israeli war crimes and human rights abuses by pointing to other states and claiming that they are worse

No-one here has ever done that Jim, as I keep telling you.
We have questioned the authenticity of alleged crimes, and we have asked why Israel is always singled out and the worse crimes of neighbours always ignored.

I wonder how fanatics are handling the idea that Israel does not even have the mythical right to a homeland in Palestine and that it is all – well, a myth.
No myths.
Israel was created by UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:39 AM

"We have questioned the authenticity of alleged crimes"
By "we" I assume you are referring to the tiny handful of pro-Zionist fanatics who post here.
You have actually "questioned" nothing, you have dismissed every single piece of evidence that doesn't show Israel's terrorist regime as shining angels out of hand as "lies", "anti-Israeli", anti- Semitic".... massacres, ethnic cleansing, racism and bigotry, creating an apartheid state, using chemical weapons, targetting civilians, destroying homes, driivinf people off their land to create illegal settlements..... - all proven beyond doubt, all denied out of hand.
You openly defend atrocities by pointing to the behavior of other states as if that had the slightest bearing on what Israel does and has been shown to have done since its foundation.
You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles.
You have nothing to say and you dominate these threads by not saying it - put up or shut up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:52 AM

It is a fact that Israel has been accused by "eye witnesses" of committing crimes that never happened.
Deny that Jim?
Israel's enemies would not have to create crimes if there were real ones.
"..... - all proven beyond doubt,"
Not.
" all denied out of hand. "
Not by us. We may have given Israel's side of the story. What objection could you have to that?
I have also pointed out that no free and well informed country believes all that stuff, including yours Jim.

"You openly defend atrocities"
A lie Jim. No-one here would do that.
Why must you lie about us?

"You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles."
Another lie. I told you I could and would substantiate anything.
You can always Google text anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 04:59 AM

BTW well done for learning to do links yourself.
I am glad my instructions you requested were helpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 05:43 AM

All lies again eh Keith? Now there's a new tactic!!
Did you send me instructions - must have been one I deleted when I decided I wasn't going to put up with being stalked.
Meanwhile back to the Shin Beth boyos
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 13 - 06:13 AM

I beg to differ....history, dear boy, history.

Religion is a conveniently-holy wagon to which you hitch your dastardly cause. Now you know me. I hate religion. Why would I exonerate it so? Because I'm honest!


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:09 AM

"You openly defend atrocities"
A lie Jim. No-one here would do that.
You never have and never could provide an example.


"You present no evidence of your own and you have consistently refused to link your articles."
Another lie. I told you I could and would substantiate anything, but having made the accusation you could not produce any statements needing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 07:45 AM

Speaking of lies, the prof quoted at length in the op was implicated in faking a child's death for anti Israel propaganda.
"Ben-Dror Yemini this week described the role of Walden in the French forgery in his weekly column. Walden prepared a professional medical report [3] that backed the lies and fabrications of the French TV station and the attempt to "prove" the Arab propaganda version of the a-Dura shooting, based on the injuries to a-Dura's father. Only problem is that the good doctor never examined the a-Dura father and based his expert conclusions on some paperwork he got from a Jordanian office. A different Israeli doctor who DID examine the poppa, Dr. Yehuda David, discovered that all the injuries the father was claiming to have suffered when his son was pretending to be shot were in fact injuries from at least 8 years earlier "
http://www.debriefing.org/27123.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 08:21 AM

sSo?
What has this got to do with Israeli war crimes?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 May 13 - 10:37 AM

I told you exactly what would happen!

I did so hope I would be wrong, but the apologists cannot abide the truth, whatever the source.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:30 AM

Keith, the world is filled with heartless killers, dictators and the like. Israeli government supports some of them. So does the U.S.

So nu?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 11:45 AM

Which "heartless killers, dictators" does the Israeli government support Stringsinger?
Not Assad. He has Iran and Russia.
Not the Saudis, or any of the Middle Eastern dictatorships.
Which?

Don, what "truth" have we denied?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:14 PM

It is virtually impossible to get any information on Keith's site unless you are a fluent French speaker, but it appears to be dedicated to defending Israel and attacking Arabs.
The author appears to be a Zionist as his article describes the doctor he is attacking as a "far-leftist anti-Zionist" and is scattered with phrases such as "usual Jewish leftists" and "usual leftist proclamations."
He describes Dr Raphael Gordon thus (and rather sinisterly includes Gordon's e-mail address in his article):
"Walden is a far-leftist anti-Zionist medical doctor with specialty in surgery, at Tel Hashomer hospital. He is active in the pro-terror anti-Israel propaganda group "Doctors for Human Rights," a group once run by anti-Semite Neve Gordon and which does not believe that Jews should be entitled to any human rights. He is also the son-in-law of Shimon Peres and often described in the press as Shimon Peres' personal physician."
This is the man the author describes as "pro-terror".
"Sheba's Prof. Raphi Walden Awarded the French Legion of Honor
Date12/07/2009
AuthorUnknown
SourceN/A
The Republic of France has awarded its highest honor, the Legion of Honor Award, to Prof. Raphael Walden, a Deputy Director of the Sheba Medical Center. Prof. Walden received the prestigious award in recognition of his leadership in the Israeli NGO, Physicians for Human Rights, and for his concrete contribution to Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, a close friend of Prof. Walden's, personally insisted on bestowing the "Officer of the Legion" award himself, during Kouchner's recent visit to Israel. Kouchner himself was one of the founders of the international NGO, Doctors without Borders.
Mr. Shimon Peres, President of the State of Israel, participated in the November 18 ceremony which was held at the French ambassador's residence in Jaffa. Prof. Walden is personal physician to Mr. Peres, while Peres is Walden's father-in-law. Former Israeli deputy foreign minister Yossi Beilin was also similarly awarded at the recent ceremony.
Prof. Walden is a vascular surgeon who for years was chief of surgery at Sheba. He is a professor at Tel Aviv University's Sackler School of Medicine, and has been a visiting professor at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and at Salpetriere Hospital in Paris. He joined Physicians for Human Rights in 1992 and been one of its leaders ever since.
Sheba CEO Prof. Zeev Rotstein said that "We are all tremendously proud of Prof. Walden and thrilled to congratulate him on this most exalted award."
Further information can be found here:
http://www.childrenofpeace.org.uk/archiveold/oct10archive.html
and
http://www.unescochair.uconn.edu/upchrconference10.htm
Information on Neve Gordon, wh he describes as an "Anti-Semite can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Gordon

Little wonder that Keith has refused to link his claims
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 13 - 12:16 PM

Oh - and by the way - I suppose it would be somewhat churlish of me to point out that Keith's link is dated 2008
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 02:59 PM

Yes it would.
The incident happened in 2000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 13 - 03:05 PM

Autumn 2011 report.
http://www.meforum.org/3076/muhammad-al-dura-hoax


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:49 AM

Still nothing to do with the subject of Israel's history of terrorism.
You offered up in evidence for your claims a Zionist hate site which has described a doctor who works to bring about co-operation between Jews and Arabs by treating children as "a far-leftist anti-Zionist" and "active in the pro-terror anti-Israel propaganda"
It describes the organisation he works for as "pro terror" and a former director of that organisation, who also happens to be an Israeli war hero who was seriously wounded in defence of his country as "anti Semitic".
The language used by the author of that article "usual Jewish leftists" and "usual leftist proclamations" perfectly echoes your own statements throughout all of these discussions.
What has your link to do with the fact that present day Israel has, in the words of a former head of the Shin Beth, become "indistinguishable in all but the enormity from Nazi Germany"?
Israel is run by a sick terrorist regime, (I assume you are not going to comment on the evidence for that which has been given by six heads of the Israeli security service), and defenders of of that regime are sickos, no better than those who refuse to acknowledge the Holocaust.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:57 AM

By the way
"The incident happened in 2000."
The link you put up is dated 2008 - but I bow to your information - by your own past arguments, the incident is 13 years out of date rather than the 5 years I mistakenly claimed - scraping even deeper into the bottom of the barrel for evidence that Israel is really a misunderstood little innocent due of "anti-Semitic propaganda".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:09 AM

Jim, this thread was never about "Israel's terrorism."
That was your thread drift, and I think you have had enough opportunities to try and make that case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 05:35 AM

The title of this thread is "Small hope for Israeli/Palestine" - the "thread drift" that you scurry behind once again points out that there is no hope while Israel continues its present policy of expansionism by terror.
Your 13 year old link has nothing to do with the subject.
Your bringing up Egyptian behaviour has nothing to do with the subject.
You drift these threads whenever it suits you yet accuses others of doing the same when you are cornered.
The fact that you refuse to respond to "horses mouth" evidence of Israeli fascism is proof enough of what you are and what you stand for, as if you hadn't made that obvious from the beginning.
You are a sick apologist for state terrorism and mass murder - end of.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:16 AM

The "Egyptian behaviour" was in the OP, as was Hamas behaviour.
So called "Israel terrorism" was not, and was not in any subsequent post until you restarted the thread.

Your attempted thread shift to hijack yet another thread is not going to get any support any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 13 - 08:20 AM

Jim, you clearly did not bother yourself to even read the OP.
My first post quoted passages from the OP, including the "Egyptian behaviour."
That is why it was in quotes Jim.

Here is my first post again.



He is entitled to his opinions, and no-one can stop Stringsinger filling our screens with them.

"You should know that in Sinai there are concentration camps that would not shame the Nazis. The refugees are held there for weeks, sometimes months, and subjected to hellish torture in order to extort money from their families in Sudan or Eritrea. We find people with burn marks and other signs of abuse; people who have been starved to the extreme; women who were raped and became pregnant and then need an abortion.

It is horrific. The Egyptian authorities have no access to them and also have no motivation [to deal with the problem]. The Bedouin do as they please"

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.

"When Hamas seized control in the Gaza Strip, they started to harass Fatah people in one of the most barbaric ways imaginable: by kneecapping them. We received requests from Gaza to treat wounded people who were in danger of losing their legs."

Israel's neighbours, not Israelis.
And, they hate Jews more even than they hated those Palestinians.

"Happily, there have been no exploding buses and terrorist attacks lately, but that casts a veil over the fact that we are still sitting on a powder keg. In regard to the Palestinians, all our fondest dreams of a decade ago have come true: for there to be rational, serious people in their leadership, for the terrorism to stop."

Maybe the bus bombs stopped because they wanted peace, but they only stopped when the wall was built.
That seems the more likely reason.

Stringsinger, your paste job reminds us that Israel is surrounded by cruel and merciless killers, and has every reason to fear being at their mercy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 13 - 02:23 PM

Read it Keith - nothing to do with main subject, or if it is, so is Israeli terrorism
The OP's first post was about Israeli behavior to its neighbours
You have been warned before about trying to censor what others write - YOU ARE NOT AN OVERSEER ON THIS SITE - DO NOT TRY TO STOP WHAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE - IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
If you are not going to respond to the undeniable evidence of Israeli terrorism by some of the people who were partly responsible for it, piss of or you'll be late for your goose-stepping lessons.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Wente
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:11 PM

Israel is a small country in a big, bad neighbourhood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 03:26 PM

It's a little country surrounded by neighbours some of whom are hostile to Israel with good reason. However, it's a little country with a big ally that asks no questions, ensures that Israel has the fourth biggest army in the world and which is itself the worlds most militarily-powerful nation.

As for this snippet from your link:

You can't see Iran, but the nuke-crazed mullahs aren't far away.

...well that's about the most blatant, evidence-innocent bit of scaremongering I've seen for a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:38 PM

Keith, try Mubarak for one. Also, G.W. Bush and Cheney for others. Iraq was an exercise in killing innocents by basically American dictators.

I think Stephen Hawking has the right idea. Don't support the war-mongers in the Likud or the Israeli government.

There are some enlightened people in Israel who are unhappy with the government unlike those outside in America or the U.K.   This is why I have hope for Israel and condemn the Christian Zionazis who would destroy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 13 - 04:55 PM

Would that one could have such hope for those suffering the governance of the Islamofascists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:01 PM

Or the Faschoillamalists. Or mybe the Ramalamadingdongalists. Oe even the Zionistapologists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:46 PM

""You can't see Iran, but the nuke-crazed mullahs aren't far away.""

Not far away maybe, and not particularly ""Nuke Crazed"" either, but I suapect that YOU might want some defensive nuclear capability, if your next door neighbour were sitting on a couple of hundred NUCLEAR WARHEADS and the means to deliver them to your front garden at a minute's notice.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 06:52 PM

It's amazing how you can be nuke-crazed yet have no nukes, innit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:08 PM

"...if your next door neighbour were sitting on a couple of hundred NUCLEAR WARHEADS and the means to deliver them to your front garden at a minute's notice."

And why would they want to do that, pray tell?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 13 - 07:15 PM

Why have they got them then? Decoration?


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 13 - 09:26 PM

Its just fun to collect 'em, Steve. Like stamps or baseball cards.
Especially if the USA is buying 'em for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 13 - 02:54 AM

Jim, you say, in big coloured capitals, " YOU ARE NOT AN OVERSEER ON THIS SITE - DO NOT TRY TO STOP WHAT YOU CAN'T HANDLE - IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS."
But Jim, you accused me of changing the subject.
You were wrong because it was a direct lift from the OP so not thread drift by any definition.
You made a big font, multicoloured twat of yourself again.

And the film.
The Gatekeepers do not accuse Israel of terrorism, they question the worth of a hard military response to Palestinian terrorism.

Steve,
It's amazing how you can be nuke-crazed yet have no nukes, innit!
Yes. Iran is the strongest military power in the region and threatened by no-one, but it destroys its economy and pauperises its people to acquire nukes.
That would be crazy if they had no purpose for those nukes when they get them.

Why have they got them then? Decoration?
No. Like us for deterrence.
You could question their nuclear intentions 50 years ago, but they have proved themselves responsible.
They have not used them in the face of attack, or even invasion, even when losing.


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