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BS: Obsession with being 'right'

Ed T 18 Apr 13 - 05:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM
Joe Offer 18 Apr 13 - 06:17 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 13 - 06:19 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 18 Apr 13 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 18 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 06:56 PM
Charmion 18 Apr 13 - 07:07 PM
Stringsinger 18 Apr 13 - 07:08 PM
kendall 18 Apr 13 - 07:17 PM
Ed T 18 Apr 13 - 07:38 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 18 Apr 13 - 07:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 07:52 PM
Wesley S 18 Apr 13 - 08:00 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 13 - 08:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 08:08 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 13 - 08:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 08:58 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 09:38 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Apr 13 - 09:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,leeneia 18 Apr 13 - 09:58 PM
olddude 18 Apr 13 - 10:19 PM
number 6 18 Apr 13 - 10:33 PM
Janie 18 Apr 13 - 10:36 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 13 - 11:21 PM
Little Hawk 18 Apr 13 - 11:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Apr 13 - 11:49 PM
Gurney 18 Apr 13 - 11:50 PM
GUEST,Number 6 19 Apr 13 - 12:16 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM
Gurney 19 Apr 13 - 12:54 AM
Amos 19 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM
Ebbie 19 Apr 13 - 01:50 AM
GUEST 19 Apr 13 - 02:41 AM
akenaton 19 Apr 13 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Eliza 19 Apr 13 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 19 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew 19 Apr 13 - 07:02 AM
Ed T 19 Apr 13 - 07:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 13 - 07:14 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Apr 13 - 07:20 AM
Ed T 19 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 13 - 08:08 AM
Pete Jennings 19 Apr 13 - 09:24 AM
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Subject: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 05:43 PM

Anyone notice that on some threads, the obsession some folks have with being right? Do they recognize it themselves? How can they miss it? Do they feel the power of the sense of "being right" and "winning" when people abruptly back off from a conversation? Do they not see that it is them that folks are often "backing down" not the topic of discussion? Do they have a "blind spot" that misses normal social messages? How can they miss the part they played in a disfunctial discussion? Know anyone like that?

Addition to "being right"


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-robbins/be-real-not-right_b_330806.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:05 PM

Certainly most people don't like that the are wrong or that their idol has feet of clay. Some people with change the subject every time you point out they are wrong. Some people when they are shown to be wrong with rephrase the question and start a new thread.

Some people care about what is true. Some people just care about who likes who.

On the other hand. I can kinda sorta see the point the guy is wrestling with in that article. The Archie Bunker story is cute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:17 PM

I think that for most things worthy of discussion, there is no right or wrong. The answers, such as they are, lie somewhere in the balance of varying factors and perspectives. The more perspectives we bring into the balance, the closer we can come to a "good" answer (not a right answer). Oftentimes, even seriously flawed perspectives can make major contributions to the balance.

I teach a Bible study every Monday morning, and the participants have become quite sophisticated over the years. They're catching on to the major point I try to get across - that for many questions, the best answer is "both" or "all of the above."

I think most of us would be a lot happier if we gave up seeking to be "right," and chose instead to seek a broader perspective.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:19 PM

Well, said, Ed. It is the obsession people have with being "right" that wrecks at least half the threads on Mudcat, and it's a disease that's almost universal among humans (to one extent or another, depending on how strong (and insecure) the person's ego is). It's more noticeable in the people who have a worse case of it, and they are the ones that others eventually learn to back off from, avoid talking to...or humour, just so they'll stop fighting with you about whatever it is that they are temporarily focusing on in order to be....."right".

I read a psychology book about this problem back in the 60's, I believe it was called "The Right Man". My father and his brother were extreme examples of the type, and they made life hell for me and my cousins. With a father like that, you can't ever be "right" about anything yourself...unless you become a little yes-man and just follow instructions and obey orders....so you learn to not talk about anything, avoid notice if at all possible, and hopefully escape the familial home as soon as possible.

The obession with being right has something to do with a person's insecurity about how they are seen by others. They have to be "right", because to be "wrong" about anything would supposedly reduce their personal power and their prestige. That's how the ego thinks...in terms of threats to its security, and opportunities to strengthen its position vis-a-vis all other egos.

It's a hellish attitude to have, and it produces most of the trouble in the world...whether it is applied through politics, business, religion, or in personal relationships.

The Right Man or Right Woman is a person you can only come to terms with by domination (showing superior power to them)...or surrender. Not wishing to either dominate or surrender to anyone, I opt to just avoid such people if I can manage it. Unfortunately, one can't really avoid them online. They react to something, and they launch an attack. One can only refuse to oblige their desire to have a fight about something by not reacting in kind.

2 Right men (or Right women) will, of course, go on fighting online with each other indefinitely. Neither one will ever back down. They HAVE to be right, so they'll fight about "it" (whatever the subject is) forever, and neither one will give an inch. You see a lot of that going on around here. It's pointless. Silly. And sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:26 PM

And there ain't a danged thing you can do about it. My father went on being "right" for his whole life....

And then he died.

His brother went on being "right" for his whole life....

And then he died.

Despite both being "right" or more likely because of it, they couldn't stand each other, and they never liked each other one bit. They both considered the other one to be "an idiot" and a fool to boot.

They both wrecked their families, messed up their marriages, alienated their children, made a lot of enemies, caused a lot of pain....and went on being "right"...till they died.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:36 PM

It's the alpha male obsession with winning. Personally I'm happy to be thought of as wrong and happy to 'lose' an 'argument' and walk away - my opinions are just that, opinions. On the other hand, I don't like be hectored, lectured, finger-wagged or browbeaten. Again I'd rather walk away and leave the other person with their misplaced sense of omnipotence intact. I work with someone who always has to win, have the last word, be right. Unsurprisingly he believes he walks on water. Equally unsurprisingly, everyone - without exception - believes him to be a tosser.

It's like with these endless religious debates here at Mudcat. The religious are rarely going to persuade the irreligious they are right or vice versa, so it ends up that acres of very hot and incredibly BORING air is expounded. Personally I have no religious belief, but some of my good friends do. And that's ok - both ways. As long as no-one is trying to shove any unwanted beliefs or non-beliefs down the other's throats I think we're fine. On Mudcat, however, that sense of perspective is sometimes lost. Angry fingers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:41 PM

PS - I am right, though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 06:56 PM

I think that the religious on this forum over the years have been losing ground in the right/not right argument, possibly because the major moderator claims to "get along" better with the anti religious. The religious seem to have gone from arguing

that they were Right to
Maybe right. to
Maybe there is a gray area to
Not wrong, to
Not delusional.

Not delusional is a place where one must dig in ones heels.

We can't prove that there is a God. But any reasonable person with a dictionary and sound judgement can see that we are not delusional.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:07 PM

The most important skill I acquired during my forties was discussion of contentious subjects. I deliberately copy a technique used by my aunt, who majored in philosophy at university: when confronted with an opinion she disagrees with, she immediately asks,"Could you explain that to me?" And then she shuts up and listens to the explanation.

The tone and language of the explanation tell me whether I can discuss this topic with this person. If the tone is emotional and the language dogmatic, I say, "Hmm, that's interesting" and move on. If the tone is coolly intellectual and the language observational, I conclude that a discussion will be productive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:08 PM

Joe, I agree with you certainly, however some times the answer is "none of the above".

As for delusion, as I have said before, everyone has an area of delusion without being totally delusional. I agree with Dawkins that a belief in a god is delusional although people can have this and not be delusional in other areas of their behavior or life.

This is strictly a matter of personal opinion and I don't expect others to agree with me.
I do see the delusional harm in the way religion has been applied and it is not always benign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:17 PM

Anyone who can say, "I was wrong" can also say "I know more than I did."
Too often people confuse opinions with facts. That's where the trouble starts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:38 PM

Random responses from a site that asked a question on how important is your opinion, as opposed to the opinion of others:

""there's a lot of people who'll have a more thought out opinion than I. But I won't let another's opinion rule over mine.""

"" I prefer my own opinion. I see that everyone else's opinion isn't very good, so I like my own.""

""My own opinion really is the only one that matters, as it's the only one that really affects my life to a large degree.""

""My opinion is always better because it is my opinion. If you and I said the same thing, my option will still be better. I take others opinions into consideration, but I still know my opinion is downright correct.""

"" I know that I'm smarter than most people, so listening to their opinions over my own would be a disadvantage."'

""If your smart enough to have a well placed critical thought in your mind at all and I mean with actual logic, then it matters over others."'

""I value my opinion more than others -because all my childhood and school life I been around people who don't really have clue what they are saying. So, my opinion is more important than anyone else's!""

Of course, that's just my opinion which is no more important than anyone else's.""

""Not all opinions are created equally"".

""our opinions are all silly and equal""


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:39 PM

On the other hand, just because I admit I was wrong, it doesn't automatically follow that you were right...

****************************************************************

Can we clear up this delusion business? If I say I believe there are fairies living at the bottom of my garden, that's my sincerely held belief. If you don't believe in fairies, it's going to be your sincerely held belief that I am deluded. This doesn't mean that you think I am mad or you think I am a lesser person, it just means that you think I am deeply mistaken when it comes to that aspect of my belief system.

Simple, innit?

******************************************************************

Also, as a mental health worker can I point out something that we hear all the time and slightly laugh about? If you describe me as 'delusional' you're saying that I don't exist. I don't think that's what you mean, though. Either I'm deluded or my ideas are delusional...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 07:52 PM

Fairies in the garden eh?

You are repeating a Dawkins meme.

Surely then you must be right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:00 PM

This is the way it was put to me:

Would you rather be right - or happy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:06 PM

Spleen Cringe, I neither believe nor disbelieve in fairies (nature spirits?). Therefore if someone tells me that there are fairies at the bottom of their garden, I first...

1. Try to gauge what sort of person they are to be saying that in the first place, how serious they are when saying it, and how rational they seem to be.

I might conclude that they're just fooling around...or that they are unstable in some way. If so, I'll probably tend to discount what they said.

I might conclude that they're quite serious, calm, and rational. If so, I'll go partly on what I already know about them in deciding how seriously to take what they said. There are some people whom I would take quite seriously, because I trust their judgement. There are others whom I would not take so seriously.

I hardly know anything about fairies, so I don't have much basis to "decide" in an instant whether or not to believe in them. I don't have a basis of dogma that I cling to which says "There are no such things as fairies."

Therefore I'd take the person's statement about the fairies and try to rate it according to my general view of the person's reliability...and take it from there...because I'm in no position to say one way or the other that there are...or are not...fairies.

What I would do is try to find out more about...go to the bottom of their garden...and see if I could see anything there myself. If I couldn't, but they could, I'd wonder if possibly they had developed a sensory ability that I haven't developed. I'd consider it at least a slight possiblity.

This doesn't mean I've decided one way or the other about the fairies. It means I'm willing to admit that I don't know for certain.

The same applies to matters about God...or about prayer...or anything else of that sort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:08 PM

Before Dawkins the word delusion was not applied to religion except as a joke. Now among certain circles it is used regularly to apply to religious people as if we are not clever enough to see through your little joke.

When I started talking about this I was saying that people who agreed with Dawkins were saying that religious people were deluded. No no no they said it is not a MEDICAL thing.

You are not fooling me cringe. No one is a little bit deluded. The word is ALWAYS a mocking putdown or a medical diagnosis. If someone is going to smugly call me deluded to my face. There is no room for reasonable debate.

That's the way Dawkins frames the debate. And Steve Shaw and musket. there is no possibility for a reasonable debate about religion with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:13 PM

Acknowledgement of lack of certainty is what is, er, lacking among a large number of those who adhere to God. I imagine such people with their incurious eyes tight shut, a serene half-smile on their lips and faces half-turned to "heaven". I can't understand certainty. I certainly ( ;-) ) haven't got it. I don't know whether there's a God or not. There's a bit of a spectrum there, from those like me who think there almost certainly isn't a God to those who think there almost certainly is. If you think there almost certainly is, you are leaving room for doubt, which is wonderful, and you are not deluded (though you do need educating in the need for evidence, but that isn't the same thing). If you are certain there's no God, you are similarly deluded. Even if there's the remotest, infinitesimal chance that God exists, you'd better acknowledge that (I do). As in good science, the word "proof" has no place here. Delusion comes only from certainty. Unfortunately, certainty/delusion gives rise to dogmatism and evangelism. In this case your moral compass ceases to work. You do things such as hector others with the goal of getting them to acquiesce in your misplaced certainty. Professor Dawkins' book contains not one scrap of certainty (I've just re-read it this week in order to confirm that for myself). The "teaching" of religious faith to children, on the other hand, is jam-packed with certainties. It's no good trying to claim that good instruction in religion is filled with nuance. Little children don't get nuance. They won't understand your grown-up get-out clauses. You know exactly what you're doing by teaching little children that myth is truth (let's face it - you're lying!), and it is useless and dishonest to pretend otherwise. People of faith, even those of good will, rarely, in my experience, acknowledge this. Conviction is one thing, but certainty is everyone's enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 08:58 PM

That is just horse crap Steve. If it were true the book would be called
"Is God a delusion?" Or "The probability that God is a delusion."

He didn't say "perhaps there is no such thing as a Christian child."

And pretending there is a shadow of a doubt is not making you look less deluded, any more than Dawkin's speech about the fairies in the garden is expressing any actual doubt.

Have you seen him make the speech? The slick little grin and the snarky tone of voice. There is no doubt in his mind. Google Dawkins TED talk. Watch him speak uncertainty is not even on his radar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:17 PM

You are fundamentally confused as to what aspects of these conversations we can apply the concept of certainty to. Time for your cocoa, Jack. Say goodnight to the folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:38 PM

You poor poor damaged man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:40 PM

How about an obsession with trying to be clear in your opinions, and not have words put in your mouth? Of having someone look at your entire statement of opinion (with supporting facts and examples) and not pick out a three-word phrase (meme) and jump up and run with it into a rhetorical jungle.

I like seeing evidence of critical thinking and though I didn't study rhetoric or classical philosophy, I find the types of arguments (logical fallacies) some people come up with speaks a lot about their intellectual honesty. As to whether any of us is right, that's sometimes moot. It's how we got there that counts.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:52 PM

Amen SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 09:58 PM

Hi, Spleen Cringe. I didn't know that about the word 'delusional.' Thanks.

Charmion, that idea of your aunt's was a good one.

Valuable thought from the linked article: "Being right about something doesn't give you the right to drive
other people crazy, though."

I believe I live a life where opinions don't occur much. I don't watch TV or movies, and I read non-fiction books or mysteries. There's not much opinion in those.

Most of the time I make things, cook things, grow things, and go places. Opinion rarely enters in. I consider that a real blessing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: olddude
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 10:19 PM

nothing to do with being right, has everything to do with being a hippocrite Seven years of constant bashing anyone of any faith, driving great people away from the forum so you can preach the new religion of Dawkins ... wonder why folks like me say F'off talk to someone who cares cause I don't anymore


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 10:33 PM

Hmmmmmm .....


Hmmmmmm .....


strange things seem to be happening here in the Madcat lately

not that I really give a rat's ass ... but interesting all the same.

biLL   ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Janie
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 10:36 PM

Well said, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:21 PM

Steve, you said: "Acknowledgement of lack of certainty is what is, er, lacking among a large number of those who adhere to God."

That may be so, Steve, but it is not lacking among the vast majority of people I've ever been around when pursuing spirituality or religion. Quite the contrary. What most of them are engaged in is simply trying to improve themselves as human beings and understand life better. They totally acknowledge their lack of certainty about a great deal while they are engaged in that process. They ask questions and seek for answers. Those answers are not found in rigid dogma or in rigid sets of religious rules, but through one's own life experiences...finding one's strengths and overcoming one's weaknesses, hard-heartedness, and bad habits.

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma. That's not what it stands for at all to me, and I absolutely avoid religious groups who approach it that way.

Almost all the religious people I know have no problem acknowledging their lack of certainty...and that includes lack of certainty about many specific doctrines and stories IN their chosen religion....if they have one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:46 PM

Matter of fact, looking back at the first half (or third?) of my own life, I'd say I was far more wedded to the notion of certainty when I was an atheist than I am as a spiritually-minded person. Spirituality got me asking a lot more questions, and admitting that I had not nearly so many of the answers. And the questions just keep coming.

I don't have a set of BELIEFS. I have a purpose, which is to become a better person in whatever way I can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:49 PM

Little Hawk is right. Lack of certainty, doubt, as Joe Offer called it on another thread, form everything I know is a big part of any religion. For me I just kind of think out each issue, come up with the answer that works best for me, put a pin in that one, file away my contemplations in my brain and carry on with my life.

I have my biggest doubts about St. Paul. I don't think he was a good person even when he was founding the church. What can I learn from that? What about when he says misogynistic things? On the other hand, some of his words about love were said at our wedding.

I don't see that in Dawkins. The only "doubt" he confesses is to say that God is as likely as the fairies at the end of the garden. Darwkins spends much to much time glibly mocking for it to be seen as doubt.

A lot of Christian dogma is a way to counter doubt. The Lords Prayer is a comfort. The 23 psalm helps you with your fear. You do not say these things because you are certain.

If you go back to his earlier works and read Dawkins material on memes on what they mean to him then look at the God Delusion and his later works in that light you would see that he has no doubt at all about his "faith." He is trying to change society by planting memes. He is trying to bring about the day when the children of Christian parents are monitored so that memes are not placed in their heads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Apr 13 - 11:50 PM

I think we want to be 'right' because we are blokes, and we aren't sitting around a table. Flat statement. Blokes have trouble being empathetic in correspondence.

Correspondence between essayists of the past, clever men, but sometimes solitary, shows that blokes sometimes can't write to, or about, each other without going from flat statement to flat refutation to personal abuse.
It doesn't usually work like that when you are face-to-face, because there is no time delay, and you have the feedback of facial expression. You can engage in banter and mildly insult each other in a way that, if we did it on this correspondence site, will make someone want to marmelise you!

Now watch someone tell me that I'm totally wrong, and prove my point. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:16 AM

This thread is starting to look like Bob Dylan's Talkin' WW 3 Blues ... Anyone see a Cadillac drive through here ?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:29 AM

Absolutely! A while ago I was suggesting to a couple of folks on this forum, that if they didn't think calling me deluded was an insult then they ought to go to a pub full of drunk rugby players yell out and ask who believes in God, walk up to the biggest one there that says "yes" and as politely as possible tell him that he is deluded.

Do you believe this may result in a marmelising?


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 12:54 AM

Naah, Jack. More likely get you a drink.
But if you state that Manawatu is the best club in the world, THAT could lead to a ruck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:31 AM

The blind desire to be right is deep-seated. It is as fundamental as the will to live itself, since wrongness resonates with the ultimate wrongness of death itself. Obviously this is a sort of reactionary conflation, and it really screws up the thinking. But it is a wide=spread conflation, none the less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:50 AM

This thread makes me uncomfortably recall that I have not yet returned to the silo-bashing thread to acknowledge there that I knew not of what I spoke.

In the meantime, instead of interminably trying to convince each other of the rightness or wrongness of the views of our hero/antihero, why not abandon that futile effort and go straight to the hero/antihero, write him and report back what he said in response? Would be infinitely more interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:41 AM

Jack I'm not trying to fool anyone. I did read The God Delusion when it came out - it was ok. I don't remember much about it. To be honest the Dawkins book that stuck in my mind was the far superior The Selfish Gene. Never read Hitchens because i never liked his style or politics as a journalist and life's too short. All the other books on religion and spiritually I've read are from 'the other' perspective. Like I said somewhere else, don't presume.

Leeneia, you're welcome. It's a little, um, 'gem' I like to share occasionally...


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:14 AM

The problem with this forum, is that too many people start debating from the standpoint that any issue is "just WRONG", without any relevant facts to back up, or even define that stance.

Being right or wrong is surely only in the mind, if not backed up by some rational argument?
What is right and wrong is determined by ones social and political ideology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:01 AM

Hi leeneia! I think the lifestyle you describe chimes largely with mine. I do have opinions but apart from on this forum, I keep them to myself! I spend my time reading, growing stuff, doing needlework, visiting my elderly friends and above all thinking. I think a lot. And most of my thoughts lead to the conclusion that 'I just don't know', or 'I'm not at all sure'. When I was quite young, I tended to be very firm about what was right, correct and irrefutable. The older I get (and I'm really old now!) the more I see that my theories may have holes in them. One of the qualities I most admire is humility and another is sensible wisdom. Many here on Mudcat have both in spades. Yourself, Little Hawk, Joe for example. People like you listen and learn. The other contentious and aggressive types don't listen, they bully instead. And they don't learn very much at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 04:08 AM

Brings to mind a road-dsafety advert from my youth...

This is the grave of Michael J
He died maintaining his right-of-way.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along,
But now he's just as dead, as if he'd been wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:02 AM

Old army saying: "Opinions are like arseholes; everybody has one, and they all stink."


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:12 AM

"" Ego likes to think it has control and that it can arrange aspects of life to suit its wishes.

Of course, life, events and other people cannot be controlled so ego seemingly gets into a power struggle with what is. At times, it can be like a four-year old who doesn't get his way. Ego, too, has its own version of tantrums.

Ego often becomes attached to being right. The problem is that it becomes attached to being "right" about things that are often a matter of opinion.

I sometimes hear someone who has "found" the correct path, talking about how "unevolved" and wrong others are, and that everyone else is wrong. When this happens, I see that it is ego that has found this path, and it is "ego" walking down that path. It is ego that is speaking, and it speaks with the voice of authority. Not only does ego claim rightness when there is no right, but it also establishes a polarity, which brings with it distance between people.

Ego holds on with a tenacity and fervour that makes it seem like a life and death issue. In truth, for ego it is a life and death issue. We either continue to house ego within our mind-body, allowing it to govern our thoughts, feelings and behaviours or we let it go. Ego has a very deep fear of getting the transformational pink slip.

If you find yourself asserting that you are right, being unable to let go or simply agree to disagree, it is a sure sign that ego still plays a dominant role in your consciousness. Holding on to rightness is like closing a door to all other points of view. It often allows the argument to become more important than the person with whom we are conversing. It allows no room for expanding perceptions or seeing a bigger picture.

With ego out of the way, so goes the issue of right and wrong. We are then free to respectfully disagree and to learn from one another.""
Gwen Randall-Young


""Let go of your attachment to being right and suddenly your mind is more open. You're able to benefit from the unique viewpoints of others, without being crippled by your own judgment"". quote,Ralph Marston


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:14 AM

This thread is just SO wrong. And Ed, if you can't even spell addiction how wrong you must be too... :-)

Seriously though - Seeing as someone already mentioned Bob Dylan - One of my favourite lyrics is

I've heard you say many times
That you're better 'n no one
And no one is better 'n you
If you really believe that
You know you have
Nothing to win and nothing to lose


Like Mr Cringe I am more than happy to walk away but when I am told by someone that I must agree with what they say, do what they do or like what they like then the little devil prods me to have a go. Argue as I may it does not mean I am, or even believe I am, right. And even if I am the other persons opinion is equally valid. Even if it is crap...;-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:20 AM

Religion to you apparently stands for people clinging to a set of rigid beliefs and dogma.

That is absolutely not what I think. Go and immediately join Jack and pete in the Very Very Silly column.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 07:47 AM

""And Ed, if you can't even spell addiction how wrong you must be too""

Of course, you are "right" dtg, or is it your "ego" posting? ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:03 AM

did you hear about the woman husband hunting, and found mr right.it was only after the wedding that she discovered his middle name was "always"!

there are things that i am sure about,but dont feel the need to keep arguing about it,,and often retire from pointless debates.there are others who claim to leave room for uncertainty,,but rage on as though they were 100% certain.we know who they are,-even if they dont know it themselves[or own up to it].
i believe that it is possible to have firm convictions without being obnoxious.but if that includes grammatical errors, i plead guilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 08:08 AM

Well, of course it's my ego but he is always right anyway :-)

D


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:24 AM

Former colleague of mine used to say (with tongue firmly in cheek) "I may have my faults but being wrong isn't one of them"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:51 AM

For many years, as a bachelor, I search high and low for "Miss Right".

I found her, too. Married her.

I just hadn't realized that her first name was "Always".

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Obsession with being 'right'
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 09:53 AM

I don't normally get involved in threads like these because, no matter how well-intentioned they may start off, they inevitably end up in utterly boring and unproductive name-calling and vituperation.

However, since the name of Richard Dawkins has cropped up yet again, I thought I would just add that, on the basis of having met him and talked with him on a couple of occasions (and read all his books as it happens), he came across to me as a sane, sensible and - actually - very charming man. Not a bit self-righteous or dismissive, but very driven by the idea that the world is a beautiful and complex place; to understand our place in it and appreciate that beauty and complexity, we need to use our brains, our logic, our understanding, our reasoning - as clearly as we can. Religion, in his view, clouds and distorts people's perception of the world around them, and of other people.

He would be the first to say that science does NOT hold all the answers to Life, the Universe and Everything. It makes mistakes - but it invites others to test the hypotheses, make the same mistakes, make different mistakes - keep testing. There is none of the certainty, in the end, in science, that you get with some exponents of religion. A good scientist will always admit that - and a bad scientist, of course, will not.

He admitted to me - as he has publicly on television - that, in his earlier days, he was immensely angered by the concept that young children would be indoctrinated with beliefs that arose from superstition. His writings at that time, he feels now, were over-agressive in his efforts to combat that. As he said in the opening words to his Royal Institution Christmas Lecture series on BBC TV in 1991 (an annual series aimed at children), "You are the religion you are, mainly because of where you or your parents were born". A simple statement, but one which immediately shows religious inconsistencies. Born in Southern Ireland or Spain? Probably Catholic - and RIGHT. Born in the Middle East? Probably Muslim - and RIGHT. Born in India? Probably Hindu - and RIGHT... You can work out the end results of all that for yourselves.

That's my personal perspective on Dawkins. Enough said from me.


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