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BS: Psychobabble!

Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 13 - 01:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM
Little Hawk 11 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 13 - 03:11 PM
gnu 11 Mar 13 - 03:21 PM
Little Hawk 11 Mar 13 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Lavengro 11 Mar 13 - 03:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 13 - 04:28 PM
Amos 11 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM
Little Hawk 11 Mar 13 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 11 Mar 13 - 05:32 PM
Ed T 11 Mar 13 - 06:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 13 - 06:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 13 - 06:13 PM
kendall 11 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM
Joe_F 11 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM
Bobert 11 Mar 13 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,999 11 Mar 13 - 08:07 PM
JohnInKansas 11 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM
Bobert 11 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM
Janie 11 Mar 13 - 10:11 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 11 Mar 13 - 11:54 PM
Donuel 11 Mar 13 - 11:57 PM
catspaw49 12 Mar 13 - 12:19 AM
kendall 12 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Mar 13 - 12:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 13 - 06:14 PM
Amos 12 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM
GUEST 12 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 13 - 08:49 PM
Bobert 12 Mar 13 - 09:04 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 13 - 10:18 PM
GUEST,999 12 Mar 13 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Mar 13 - 12:41 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Mar 13 - 04:35 AM
Little Hawk 13 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM
Bobert 13 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Mrr 13 Mar 13 - 10:39 AM
katlaughing 13 Mar 13 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,leeneia 13 Mar 13 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Lavengro 13 Mar 13 - 06:52 PM
Don Firth 13 Mar 13 - 07:09 PM
Little Hawk 13 Mar 13 - 08:03 PM
Don Firth 13 Mar 13 - 08:41 PM
Amos 13 Mar 13 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,leeneia 14 Mar 13 - 11:36 AM
Mrrzy 14 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM
Amos 14 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Lavengro 15 Mar 13 - 08:41 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 13 - 05:41 PM
Don Firth 15 Mar 13 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Lavengro 16 Mar 13 - 06:15 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM
Mrrzy 16 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM
Mrrzy 16 Mar 13 - 03:47 PM
Elmore 17 Mar 13 - 09:32 AM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 13 - 03:42 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 13 - 03:48 PM
Amos 17 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 13 - 06:14 PM
Bobert 17 Mar 13 - 08:50 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM
Bobert 17 Mar 13 - 09:25 PM
Don Firth 17 Mar 13 - 09:29 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 13 - 09:29 PM
Don Firth 17 Mar 13 - 09:48 PM
Little Hawk 17 Mar 13 - 10:02 PM
Bobert 17 Mar 13 - 10:07 PM
Amos 17 Mar 13 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,Jonathan Hall 18 Mar 13 - 12:54 AM
Amos 18 Mar 13 - 09:38 AM
Mrrzy 18 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM
Little Hawk 18 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,leeneia 19 Mar 13 - 12:16 AM
Little Hawk 19 Mar 13 - 12:49 AM
Mrrzy 19 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 19 Mar 13 - 03:16 PM
Mrrzy 19 Mar 13 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,leeneia 19 Mar 13 - 05:10 PM
Little Hawk 19 Mar 13 - 05:49 PM
Mrrzy 20 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM
Amos 20 Mar 13 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Mar 13 - 02:47 PM
Mrrzy 20 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Mar 13 - 03:00 PM
Little Hawk 20 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Mar 13 - 01:48 PM
Mrrzy 22 Mar 13 - 12:19 AM
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Subject: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 01:59 PM

Something I have thought for a long time and mentioned often here on Mudcat has now been put into print by a qualified psychologist!

Dr Stephen Briers - Psychobabble

Now, I am not saying he is right and all else is wrong - Far from it. But at least now we just may be able to find a balance between all the fluffy nonsense that is spouted and the harsh reality of real mental illness. At least I hope so. The book is now on my reading list #Behind my Christmas and Birthday presents just at the moment!#

Hope it provokes some thought anyway.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:09 PM

Hmmm wonder why my (brackets) came out as hashes..?

Suppose it must be me!

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM

Does it resemble blathertwaddle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:11 PM

I think it may be more like fiddlefaddle :-)

D


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:21 PM

OH Fuddleduddle!


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:35 PM

Well, there's all that "inner child" talk that became fashionable awhile back...and I think it makes a good deal of sense, actually...but how come no one ever talks about a child's "inner adult"? ;-) My inner adult interfered a great deal in my childhood and adolescence. And while he helped me avoid making certain reckless mistakes that young people often make, he also tended to isolate me from my peers and make me overly serious and that led to other problems. He may have gotten in the way of a certain amount of fun I could have had. All things considered, though, I think he played a fairly useful part at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:37 PM

Personally I would not buy a book telling us all how much time and money some people waste on self-help books etc. authored by a wannabe TV celeb from such classics as "Freaky Eaters" and "Wife Swap-The Aftermath" (both to be read in your best throaty cinema trailer voice); who has authored a half dozen popular psychology/self- help tomes himself.

I must confess a personal bias here. I have worked in mental health for over 12 years and only ever met one clinical psychologist who actually helped their patients, as opposed to keeping them occupied with endless rounds of CBT or DBT, reflective diaries etc. until the patient managed to figure most of it out his/her self after a period of years with the help of their families, psychiatrist, peer groups and nursing/auxiliary staff.

A good book (IMO)on the human side of mental health is "Touched by Fire" by Kay Redfield Jamison.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:28 PM

Thanks, guest Lavengro - Looks like a good recommendation which I will add to the ever growing list!

See here.


Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM

There are plenty of gems hidden in the dross of the Self Help explosion, and the generalized sanctimony the OP link seems to wave over the entire subject is itself (I would offer) suspect on the same grounds it claims. Claiming to have the expertise to define the internal landscape of the individual or the ultimate analysis of the individual's place in the world is pretty presumptuous. I have always considered it a useful guideline to invite people to find out for themselves which truisms and mechanisms they find match their own experience and perceptions. Absent that, all the advice in the world is just vapor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:22 PM

Bravo! Well said, mon frere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 05:32 PM

I never met anyone yet who didn't understand a punch in the eye, a slap across the face or a slug from a forty-five.

- Chongo

p.s. I think Woody Allen said somethin' like that once too...but he was fakin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:10 PM

""Facts are ventriloquists dummies. Sitting on a wise man's knee they may be made to utter words of wisdom; elsewhere, they say nothing, or talk nonsense, or indulge in sheer diabolism"". Aldous Huxley


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:12 PM

I think the point may be being missed. Probably me not explaining very well and having the advantage of hearing the author being interviewed on the radio! I think he spoke a lot of sense about people becoming too reliant on self-help, self-analysis and advice that generally puts pressure on the advisee to try and be something they are not.

As I said, and I will underline again because as sure as eggs are eggs I will be accused otherwise! I am not saying the author is right or wrong. I just believe it is a refreshing change to have someone give an opposing viewpoint what seems to have become the norm. Even if he is making a name for himself and a bob or two on the side :-)

As Amos says - The self-help 'explosion' does contain a lot of dross. I am sure there are some gems but how does the ordinary man in the street tell one from the other? Better surely to listen to all views, take most of them with a pinch of salt, make your own mind up and realise there is not a magic solution for everything!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:13 PM

...an opposing viewpoint TO what seems to have become the norm...


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM

Twaddle


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 07:51 PM

Stay away from mental-health nuts if you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:05 PM

I've dabbled in some of this stuff and found lots helpful...

"I'm Okay, You're Okay" (transactional analysis) was helpful...

I read a book by Mazlow (self actualization) was helpful...

Everything by Carlos Castanada was helpful... Not sure that was "self help" but it really was...

Carl Rogers was helpful...

I mean, you take a little here and little there...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:07 PM

Read "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Nuns." A visual for those who need one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM

By coincidence I walked into the book shop and spotted a book IDENTICAL to one off my bookshelpf that I scanned to my digital collection about three days ago.

I bought mine when I was 14 (a few years ago), brand new at list price for $0.35. The one on sale today for half price was $8.

"Collected writings of 50 Famous Psychologists" is a rough title. (It wasn't good enough - then or now - to worry about getting it exact.)

Apparently not much really changes in 50 or 60 years - in that particular field.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM

Where is GUEST from Insanity???

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Janie
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 10:11 PM

Love all the expert stereotyping going on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 11:54 PM

You should go hang out at the North Side Gorillas' clubhouse. You'd be in a state of ecstasy.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 11:57 PM

I agree but

This popular opinion too will change

After Speculating on the nature of dyslexia based on NIH research of the behavior of the angular gyrus in the left hemisphere, that research itslef has been overturned.

Lots of mistakes have to be made to go from phenomena to tracable reproducable facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:19 AM

I had some mental health nuts and they were fuckin' awful. Kinda' like eating a boiled peanut that had gone sour and was dropped into some leftover kim chi. Tell ya'.....I really didn't care for them at all................


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: kendall
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:36 AM

Anyone who would go to a shrink should have his head examined. (My brother)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 12:17 PM

Dave, thanks for the link. Psychobabble is for real, and it's something we need to be on the alert for.

I don't encounter it much anymore, but I can think of one example: it is a widely-held opinion among young people that no one except a parent must ever correct a child or interfere with it in any way. It just isn't done!

But one day, in Florida, I was in a parking lot when a 3-year-old boy started running, escaping his mother, who had flipflops on and couldn't run. The kid was completely ignoring her cries. I said to myself, "To heck with the rules!" and I spun around and caught the kid. I told him, "Listen to your mother when she calls you, and go to her."

The kid, panicked by an encounter with a stranger, ran straight to her. And I am not kidding, a few seconds later a Hummer backed up. And as we all know a three-year-old cannot be seen at the back of a Hummer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 05:12 PM

It certainly does, Leeneia. Seen it heard it many times over in many places - Including here! The new book may be just as bad but, at first glance, it seems quite genuine.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:14 PM

Leeneia - It is the loss of traditional community in our culture which has resulted in millions of people who are so isolated from one another that they don't have enough basis of mutual trust left to feel "safe" about some other adult innocently speaking to their child.

This wasn't the case in traditional communities as they existed not too long ago historically...before the automobile, the radio, the TV, the computer, the cellphone, and the airplane.

And it isn't the case in places where traditional community still does exist, as in much of the Third World, and in some intentional communities (such as churches, ashrams, communes, groups like the Amish, and other such groups of people who form a community around common values or philosophies, and who are used to relating to each other and trusting each other as friends within that community).

The underlying fear that people have of each other now in the developed world is based in a direct ratio to how little they actually know or associate with each other, and how much they are isolated in their little private boxes (their homes) with their little electronic companions (TV, Computer, ipod, iPhone, iPad, Facebook, etc.) rather than experiencing the normal give and take that occurs in a living community of persons who share the same 3-D life together, which is what used to be the normal thing before all our convenient technology took it away from us bit by bit. People don't frigging USE their front porches anymore! They're inside watching the damn TV.

We in the affluent countries are living in an Orwellian world now, and it's taking its toll on everyone, creating fear, paranoia, and isolation from one another.

The only way you can counteract that is to turn off your electronic companions, walk out the door, and find ways of building real community with other people in the real world.

The one (and only) electronic companion that takes up way too much of my time is the computer. And I know it. But I do find ways of participating in community outside the front door. Those things I experience in real 3-D community mean ten times to me what anything I get from this computer does...and belonging to a digital (online) community can't possibly match what one gets out of traditional community in the 3-D world. Matter of fact, I think that most of the time online community is just a way for a lot of people to keep themselves distracted, briefly amused, fight boredom, and hide from dealing with actual life in the real world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM

The genus of what is being called psycho-babble is often an effort to identify the patterns and mechanisms of the mind and make up some useful labels for patterns that need to be managed or changed. THis is all well and good, but it becomes problematic when it starts being prescriptive and seeks to tell the person what he should see within his own mind. Minds are very personal constructs and all this kind of feeding does is create dependency to the degree the individual takes it on board without judgement or inspection.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

"THis is all well and good, but it . . ."

It is neither. Claptrap like 'it takes a village to raise a child' is an assassin's attempt to destroy meaning in/of language. One might as well say it takes a village to raise an idiot. If one, then the other.

No offence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 08:49 PM

Oops, that was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 09:04 PM

Let's get real here...

Psychobabble ain't all that bad... I mean, most folks who get caught up in it are trying to work thru stuff on their own... Or with little outside help...

Used to be that the model was go see the clinical psychologist or psychiatrist... Don't get me wrong... Lotta folks need that but lotta folks...

...don't...

I mean, if a little babblin' can get you thru what ever is buggin' you then I say, "Go for it"...

Too bad that it's kinda going outta vogue... The 60s and 70s were the hotbed decades for babblin'... It was fun...

Anyone remember "sensitivity training"???

"Self actualization"???

"Rational emotive"???

Them were the days... And, ahhhhhhh, the after workshop sex was good, too...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:18 PM

How about primal scream therapy? That was pretty big for awhile. And rolfing! Did you ever try those out, Bobert?

Chongo, by the way, is an expert at doing the primal scream. He had that all worked out before any people ever came up with the idea. Every chimp knows how to do a primal scream any time it is required.

999 - I think the idea about a village raising a child is actually a rather good one. Children benefit greatly from knowing many different people (of all ages) in a more tribal or extended family type of community, rather than being isolated to just knowing their immediate nuclear family. That's probably the idea behind the phrase you quoted. The fact that an occasional idiot can still be found IN a village does not negate the usefullness of the concept stated any more than it negates the usefullness of the village itself. It just proves that there are no absolutely perfect solutions to common human problems.

I'd rather have been around many different people (including, of course, my parents) while growing up than just around my parents, let me tell you! And that's for damned sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 10:30 PM

LH, I agree with you, but that isn't what I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 12:41 AM

Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm a schizophrenic
And so an I.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 04:35 AM

ooops..that other guy made a typo.....


Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm a schizophrenic
And so am I.

GfS II


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 05:54 AM

Okay, Bruce. Then I'm not quite sure what you were driving at. Did you mean clumsy use of language?


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM

Ahhhhh, yes, the ol' "diversity" argument... Okay, it may be an old argument but one that, at least from my personal experience, is valid...

I like the "village" concept... In essence it is the "tribe" concept... We are very much tribalized these days... It comes from or media which has connected us to others in ways we wouldn't have thought could or would happen some 50 years ago...

Facebook???

My Space???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:39 AM

There was an article in Slate recently about things that amateurs do/say that bother experts in various fields. I didn't even know where to start, as a psychologist...

*Schizophrenia, no matter what the roots of the word are, is not split personality.

*Reinforcement is anything that makes a behavior more likely. The behavior is reinforced, not the person being (in their mind) rewarded by said reinforcement. I see this in textbooks all the time.

*Correlation not only isn't causation, it only describes a linear relationship between increases in one continuous variable and in another. You can't correlate to discrete variables at all, so nothing can correlate, for instance, with gender. And, if a relationship exists but isn't linear, it still isn't a correlation. You can mess with the data to make it linear, like using logarithmic transformations, and then talk about correlations, though.

*Any Freudian term at all is almost bound to be misused. Stars in this category are the terms id, ego, denial, repression, neurosis, fixation, and anal or oral when referring to fixations or repressions. Oh, yeah, and passive-aggressive. Also regression, which bugs me when misused as a statistical term too.

*Theory / Evolution: I get this with the creationists all the time (remember, I teach in the Southern US). Evolution is no more theoretical than gravity.

I think I'll stop now before by blood pressure goes up any more...


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:31 AM

no kidding, Janie.

my psychotherapist is nothing like what has been portrayed as above and on other threads. i did the work with hid feedbackj, etc., help and it was well-worth it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 11:31 AM

Psychobabble is mostly in the world of women, and few of you seem to know much about women. Read 'Bridget Jones' Diary' and get back to us.

It doesn't have to do with serious mental illness like schizophrenia. It has to do with emotions in everyday life.

By the way, the mother whose little boy I caught cried 'Thanks!' She knew danger when she saw it.

Here's another example. Years ago, my sister-in-law and her husband debated whether it was a good idea to let their little baby stand up on the couch and then catch her when she lost her balance, which was immediately. One parent thought it would instill timidity; the other thought it would build trust.

Notice that they only thought of emotions. They ignored the simple fact that the baby might fall or twist in an unexpected way and get hurt. In psychobabble, emotions rule. They also ignored the fact that the baby was too little to remember any of this anyhow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 06:52 PM

@Mrr

"I think I'll stop now before by blood pressure goes up any more..."

You need to get yourself to a psychologist who can show you some really useful relaxation and breathing exercises ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:09 PM

I've always maintained that people with multiple personalities should share them with people who don't have any.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:03 PM

That's generous of you. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:41 PM

I try to keep an open mind, but my brain keeps dropping out and bouncing across the floor. . . .

Don--Oops! There it goes again!--Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 10:44 PM

"It takes a village to raise a child" is an aphorism, a saying. Taking it literally would be misguided. It's a fucking figure of speech. As such it requires intelligent, contextual interpretation if it is to be applied. It is like "a stitch in time aves nine" or "look before you leap"==you can apply them intelligently or idiotically. Come on, now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:36 AM

You are right, Amos. Some villages are mean-spirited, even predatory to certain of their inhabitants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:18 PM

lavengro - thanks, I really should!
Don Firth - so true. Great idea.

I thought Look before you leap went with Who Hesitates is Lost, but it can go well with the stitch in time too, love them proverbs. Or whatever they are.

Reminds me of a (thread creep) old Asimov, I think, short story where a Mr. Stein gets around the statute of limitations by walking into a time machine and coming right out again after the statute expired. The prosecution tried to argue that he had not actually lived through the statutory period so it shouldn't count, but the judge decreed...


...that a niche in time saved Stein.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM

Arrrrgh!! Well, just goes to show you shouldn't change streams in the middle of a horse (as one germ said to the other).


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:41 AM

Never sell your saddle, look before you leap.
Beware the moderator and the perils of thread creep.

A leopard cannot change his spots, curiosity killed the cat.
There will always be trolls upon the boards and no one can change that.

A penny saved is a penny earned, a picture paints a thousand words.
Take the trolls for what they are, highly polished turds

Don't put your eggs into one basket, don't count your chickens till they hatch.
But you can always find some friendly folk, here at the Mudcat patch.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, and we're all in the same boat.
You're probably quite bored by now, at everything I've wrote.

Every cloud has a silver lining so that's all there is from me.
But if you think I know what I'm talking about, you're barking up the wrong tree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 05:41 PM

Talk about "self help" can all too often be camouflage for "blame the victim" and "not my problem".


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:45 PM

One of the above aphorisms reminded me of this bit of history—

The western Pyrenees, between Spain and France, is inhabited by the descendants of early inhabitants from before Roman times. They are known as Basques, and at times have been fiercely independent. On one occasion, the Spanish attempted to conquer them and "bring them to heel."

The leaders gathered their people into a particular castle where they knew the Spanish oppressors would besiege them and attempt to starve them out.

But this was a tactic. There was a passage that started inside the castle, went under the moat, and ended in the nearby woods, and when the siege began, they planned to show fierce resistance, but when night fell and the besiegers backed off, they would all slip out the secret tunnel. The following morning the Spanish would seize an empty castle, and the rebel leaders would be safely away!

When night fell and the Spanish camped outside the castle walls to wait to resume their onslaught at daybreak, the rebels all slipped into the passageway, headed under the moat, and continued on until they emerged in the far woods.

Or they would have. Were it not that the Spanish knew about the passage, and as the rebels emerged from the opening in the woods, they were immediately captured!

The moral of the story?

Don't put all your Basques in one exit!

(I'll go now……)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 06:15 AM

@Don

"Don't put all your Basques in one exit!"

Oh dear. We will have an avalanche of those now won't we? :0


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 02:54 PM

I enjoy giving old sayings a new twist:

A watched pot never boils over.

The early worm gets eaten by the bird.

and of course,

He who hesitates is sometimes saved. (Not my own.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:46 PM

James Thurber. GREAT story. Good footnoting too, leeneia!

But we digress. Before getting back to the thread though, since this is a music forum, I thought I'd mention

If you go in
You're sure to win--
Yours will be the charming maidie:
Be your law
The ancient saw, "Faint heart never won fair lady!"

Never, never, never, Faint heart never won fair lady!
Every journey has an end--
When at the worst affairs will mend--
Dark the dawn when day is nigh--
Hustle your horse and don't say die!

He who shies At such a prize
Is not worth a maravedi,
Be so kind To bear in mind-- Faint heart never won fair lady!

Never, never, never, Faint heart never won fair lady!
While the sun shines make your hay--
Where a will is, there's a way--
Beard the lion in his lair--
None but the brave deserve the fair!

I'll take heart And make a start--
Though I fear the prospect's shady--
Much I'd spend To gain my end-- Faint heart never won fair lady!

Never, never, never, Faint heart never won fair lady!
Nothing venture, nothing win--
Blood is thick, but water's thin--
In for a penny, in for a pound--
It's Love that makes the world go round!


But back to the psychobabble part: Other bugaboos include the drugging of character quirks and individualities - Shy? Try this drug!


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 03:47 PM

Oops, forgot to mention the psychobabble part being calling shyness Social Anxiety.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Elmore
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:32 AM

Books of this kind never helped me. Shrink did, despite the fact that he had no sense of humor, which used to drive me crazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 03:42 PM

Mrzzy...shyness is the visible result of a form of social anxiety. Though, it does seem like a rather verbose way of saying it, I suppose.

***

Anger arises out of fear. So does shyness. So does greed. So does prejudice. So does envy or resentment. So does jealousy. Matter of fact, I think virtually all human emotional dysfunctionality arises out of fear of some sort, and then shows itself in its attendant symptoms. It might not appear like fear (in the case of the angry, dominant person, for example), but that's what it's based on. The bully is secretly afraid of a number of things, and that's why he (or she) becomes a bully in the first place.

Not mentioning that in connection with anything you said previously, by the way...I'm just thinking out loud about it because it interests me.

In the complete absence of fear, one experiences ideal relationship. That is...trust, friendliness, love, fun, spontaneity, relaxation, a sense of calm, mutual acceptance, respect, confidence to express oneself freely and be who one really is instead of putting on an act, etc. (Many people have this kind of relationship much more easily with a pet than they do with another human being...which is kind of sad. We're a lot more scared of what other people can do to hurt us.)

I think we need to teach these things in school (and demonstrate them) a heck of a lot more than we need to teach most of the stuff which is presently being taught. Memorizing facts does not really educate a person or prepare them for life. Without a sense of life's inner meaning and without a coherent ethical purpose for one's life, facts just become empty noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 03:48 PM

Now watch. Some smartass will give me an A+ for psychobabble on that last post of mine. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 05:06 PM

This breezy, superficial sketch of mental architecture is the kind of facile generalization with little or no referent that gives psychobabble a bad name. Fear is not the common denominator of all unpleasant emotions anymore than courage is the common denominator of all the more positive ones. Or it may be, if you are using some new meaning for the word, not disclosed in your authoritative revelation. Emotion is a rich blend of cognitive factors, physical states and degrees of affinity (positive or negative) only some of which add up to what fear usually means. I think, therefore, that there is slipshod semantic sloppiness at play in your sage-like assertions, good Hawkster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 06:14 PM

Oh, pish and tosh, sir. You are reacting in a knee-jerk fashion, methinks, and hardly even attempting to grasp the point I was making. Indeed, I would not change what I said by even a jot or a tittle in response to your hasty comments, my good man, but rather urge you to read them again, more patiently, more thoughtfully, with greater care, and with an intent toward actual discernment rather than merely leaping to unfounded contradictions and denials.

I fear that you did not understand me. ;-) And this brings stress into my perception of our relationship, though minor stress, to be sure.

Everyone on this Earth does fear to be misunderstood...and we often are misunderstood. Agreed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 08:50 PM

Psychobabble is fine for normal folks with the usual dime-store issues but doesn't work too well beyond that...

I mean, all the wacky stuff that many of us have done in our life times to become more sensitive, aware or healthy ain't much good to the truly whacked out... Be nice if it did but at the end of the day these folks are still going to be truly whacked out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:11 PM

Hmmm. Okay, what are the usual dime-store issues? ;-) I realize it might take a loooong time to list them all...though I did mention some of them earlier.

Now, suppose you had a case of someone who thought he was a superhero named The Green Bastard, and he dressed up in lime green tights, ate iron nails for breakfast, juggled rattlesnakes for amusement, and leapt off tall buildings now and then, thinking he could fly.

In such a case, Bobert, I think you would have a good point. Ordinary psychobabble might not be enough to resolve the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:25 PM

I know the difference having worked with people who are severely mentally ill... It's a different story...

I mean, you might use some of the same treatment modalities with them as with the "babblers" but the results are going to be a lot less successful with the mentally ill...

Wish I didn't know what I know here... You'll just have to take my word for it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:29 PM

If you want to hear some really fine psychobabble, listen to a freshman college student who is taking Psych 100 (Introduction to Psychology). He or she generally comes on like they're the combined reincarnated souls of Freud, Pavlov, and B. F. Skinner.

Give 'em a few years to mature and/or another couple of years of intensive Psych courses and they'll outgrow it to the point where they are tolerable again.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:29 PM

I am taking your word for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 09:48 PM

I had a friend who was a couple of years younger than me who came to the University of Washington when I'd been there for two years. His ambition was to become an actor (he acted in his high school plays), but when he took freshman Psych, he became insufferable. And manipulative!

After hearing of Pavlov's experiments with dogs, he figured he could control people's (and my) behavior with a little "conditioning." If, in a discussion of any topic, if I had the audacity to disagree with him about something, he would punch me in the shoulder. Hard!

After he did this a few times and I figured out why he was doing it and what he was trying to accomplish by this, I warned him that there would be "consequences" if he ever did that again.

A short time later, we had a mild disagreement about something, and once again he punched me on the shoulder.

I immediately caught him in the goolies with a quick upward swing of an aluminum forearm crutch.

There must be something to Pavlovian conditioning, because with Bruce, it was a case on "one time learning." He never punched my shoulder again.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:02 PM

LOL!!! Good move, Don. The experimenter forgot that the dog can, and may, bite if he is not treated respectfully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 10:07 PM

I know what you mean, Don...

Hire a teenager while he knows everything in the world...

Actually, I loved my Psych courses in college... Some of it wasn't what I thought it would be... 2nd semester they taught us about the eyeball and cones and retinas and stuff??? That Psych??? Not in my book but...

...hey... We got Skinner and his box and his mice... We got Pavlov's dog... We got a little of this and that... A real hodge-podge of stuff for an entire two semesters...

Now I know why so many folks major in the stuff... It's just a bunch of weird BS... Kinda like Mudcat...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 11:15 PM

I knew a deck officer once who had the worst halitosis and never seemed to notice. He would come up and speak earnestly right in your face--I think he was nearsighted as well. Anyway I had asked him several times not to do this, and he persisted. So one time I just nodded vigorously, which brought the hard bill of my officer's cap square down across the bridge of his nose. The pain was sufficient to lay the lesson in permanently.

But that isn't psychology, except in the crudest sense fo the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Jonathan Hall
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 12:54 AM

Hi Amos:

Are you the one I may have given a guitar lesson to in the 50's? If you are Amos Jessup it is true.

WRite to me at jonathanbobohall@gmail.com

Jonathan


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 09:38 AM

What a hoot, Jonathon!! The man who began it all for me!!

Endless praise be unto him!

An email is en route.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

Amos and guest JHall, too cool for words.

Pedant alert, back to people talking about things they know less about than I do (grinning! Big grinning!) Especially since this is what the thread is about!

Anger arises out of fear. So does shyness. So does [...]virtually all human emotional dysfunctionality ...

Actually, fear is any non-sessile organism's response to perceived danger, and activates the particular amygdala that tells it to take its organic ass away. Anger, in contrast, is a social organism's response to perceived deception. Different parts of the brain, different chemicals, everything is different. Both may lead to violence, but through separate pathways.

The basic emotions all serve distinct biological functions.

Also, shyness IS fear, it doesn't arise out of it. And paralyzing shyness is social anxiety; regular shyness isn't. For example, the age at which children go through what people like to call stranger anxiety - it's right when they are becoming separate little locomotors and it keeps them near their kith and kin. Calling it an anxiety makes it sound dysfunctional, but it's the opposite. Had it been called Familiar-preferring instead it wouldn't sound nearly as interesting.

In the complete absence of fear, one experiences ideal relationship. In the complete absence of fear one usually experiences death, and rather quickly too. Otherwise why would you step out your front door instead of your penthouse window?

I think what the poster was going for was TRUST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM

Hmm. You're referring to a different type of fear than what I was referring to, Mrzzy.

You are referring to the fear of an imminent physical danger or some other form of rationally-perceived potential danger (such as the risk of losing one's money in a stock market crash, for example).

There's nothing dysfunctional about such fears, because they're based on a practical assessment of the situation. In other words, a bear charges out of the woods at me, and I feel fear. That's rational. It's not dysfunctional.

I was referring more to chronic psychological states of underlying fear which are not necessarily rational at all, and which cause emotional armouring and various unnecessarily defensive or hostile or selfish behaviours in people. Or they can cause avoidance and withdrawal. Or coldness. Or lack of empathy. Etc.

Yes, you could call it lack of trust. Certainly. Lack of trust does indicate that there is a level of fear.

For instance, it's easy to notice how positive people are to approaching puppies. Why? Well, the puppies are cute, and people aren't the least bit afraid of them. The complete lack of fear allows free expression of love and affection toward the puppy, but a lot of people will be quite hesitant about approaching an adult dog, specially a large one, because there's some level of fear that they feel in the presence of a large dog....unless he's very obviously a friendly one. Some people will fear any large dog, regardless. They don't trust dogs, on principle.

****

You said something striking at the end of your post: "In the complete absence of fear one usually experiences death, and rather quickly too. Otherwise why would you step out your front door instead of your penthouse window?"

I find that an extraordinary statement in what it implies...rather than what it says directly. It implies that the only possible escape from fear is death. I have experienced any number of times in this life where I was living in the complete absence of fear. They were temporary, yes, but they were what life is meant to be, in my opinion. They were peaceful times, happy times, joyful times, times when I felt love, times when I felt connection with others or with Nature, times when I experienced complete trust. They're what makes life worth living, those times.

There's a thing called the ego. It looks at the world this way: "I am the center of concern here. It all revolves around my interests. Everyone I see is one of 3 things to me: an opportunity to get something I want, a threat, or...they don't fucking matter. Everything I see is one of 3 things to me: something I desire, something I fear, or it doesn't fucking matter. Nothing is "sacred"...except my own desires...and the stuff I own...like my property and my kids. That stuff is sacred because it's MINE. There is no meaning behind life except what meaning I choose to arbitrarily give it. That basically makes me the god of my own creation. Everything happened probably by accident, there was no purpose behind it, but here I am all alone in a dangerous world, so I have to get whatever I can while I can and watch constantly for threats and opportunities of all sorts. In other words, I have to play this competitive game to win and to extend my survival as long as possible. It's all about me. Survival of the fittest is all there is to it. I'm the boss here...hopefully. If it turns out that someone else is the boss, because I'm not strong enough to stand up to them...then...well, I'll either suck up to that boss and get a good spot in the game or I'll hate him with an undying hatred and hope for his downfall. Maybe I can find out how to destroy him...

Etc. You can see this shit-level vicious psychology behind the foreign policy of any aggressive military power and any competitive business entity out to dominate the marketplace. It dominates our political and financial power structures and corporate boardrooms. It has resulted in extremes of wealth and poverty, corruption, warfare, oppression, and the death of millions of innocent people.

It's a very ugly business, it's downright satanic in the terms of spirituality, but that's how the ego works. It doesn't really believe in anything but itself, and it thinks it is irrevocably alone in an uncaring and meaningless Universe, constantly in danger of its own extinction. For such a consciousness there certainly can be NO possible end of fear short of death.

Most people don't even notice how the ego works, because they take it totally for granted. It rules them and they never question it. It IS their god. It would never even occur to them to question its most basic assumptions: being "number one" and being absolutely alone.

And all of that, in my opinion, is the deepest, darkest lie and the grossest misconception...it is what could be termed the Father of Fear or the Father of Lies. It has no connection with love...but it does desire intensely, and it will sometimes mistakenly call its most fervent desires "love".


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 12:16 AM

I came across a simple example psychobabble in Dear Abby's column yesterday. A mother was worried because her little girl was being left with her husband's mother, who is addicted to pain medication and even passes out.

The child's father said that the mother was being "paranoid and overprotective." (Abby clobbered him, but only verbally.)

That's a good example of psychobabble. "Paranoid" is a term from psychiatry. The father isn't a psychiatrist, and he's probably never experienced true paranoia. He's just parroting the term to make himself sound like an expert when he isn't.

"Overprotective" isn't quite as devious, but it's a judgmental, negative... no wait, it's an elephant-shit term he is dragging out to make himself seem superior.

Hey, turkey, your three-year-old is out of your care and the baby-sitter's UNCONSCIOUS! Wake up and smell the kids playing with matches!


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 12:49 AM

Paranoid is a pretty ordinary word these days, I think. So is overprotective. The only problem is if you use those words to support an invalid argument, and it sounds like that guy did.

I can well attest to the undeniable fact that my mother was paranoid and definitely overprotective of those in her care (me and/or the various pets) for her entire life. She lived an existence of unjustified fear. As for my father, he went sort of to the other extreme, being quite reckless, and figured he couldn't lose. It was kind of like being between Scylla and Charybdis. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 01:44 PM

Right. I was using the word as it is defined in the psychological jargon. That is what we were talking about. If you are going to use psychobabble, be ready to be called on your definitions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:16 PM

I think 'psychobabble' can be described as simplistic labelling (with a limited selection of cliches) of various emotional and psychological problems. I also think a lot of money has been made by authors of self-help books. However, when one is in a state of anguish or dilemma, there aren't many options for getting help unless you're prepared to pay a fortune for counselling or analysis. Psychobabble can enlighten the ordinary person in a simple way and help them to understand and address their issues. The same concept arises in large companies where (I've heard) people talk about 'blue sky thinking' 'thinking outside the box', 'the way forward' 'pushing the envelope' etc. All these cliches are tiresome, yet describe succinctly-expressed ways of proceeding with business strategies. They are codes, and as such are useful. Another example of this type of 'babble' is that found in school reports (my department!):- 'working to her ability', 'not fulfilling his potential', 'showing promise' etc are all codes. I always liked 'outspoken and active', meaning a bloody nuisance in class!


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 04:18 PM

I got "eleve vivace" one year... meant couldn't shut up but too smart to punish. I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:10 PM

I remembered another instance. I was reading about sewing, and a grandmother wrote that her daughter-in-law said that the dresses the g'mother had been making for the little granddaughter were scratchy around the waist and the little girl didn't want to wear them.

Everybody felt that this was just a dirty trick, and the DIL was being underhanded, jealous maybe, of the grandmother's lovely dresses. That's typical psychobabble - looking for the secret motive, the hidden evil emotion. Nobody brought up the possibility that the waistline seams were simply scratchy and needed to be sewn in a new way.


A couple years later, exactly the same thing happened. My friend's four-year-old couldn't wear Grandma's pretty dresses because they scratched her. Why not just explain the problem and try a new method for stitching the bodice and skirt together?

By the way, I recently tried button beads onto a blouse, and I soon learn that something scratch-scratch-scratching at your belly is REALLY irritating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 05:49 PM

I'm simply voicing my own thoughts here as best I can, Mrrzy. That's what everyone does who bothers to post here, and I think they do it because they feel some kind of need to...or they enjoy expressing themselves...or they find it to be a convenient way of passing the time...or whatever moves them. No big deal, in other words. You're as free to "call me" on anything I say as I am to "call you" on anything you say...but will either of us remember it in a week from now? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 11:17 AM

Hey, I didn't even remember it was you whom I was answering, Little Hawk!

Repression, tee hee?


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 12:19 PM

The problem with inventing categories and labeling phenomena of the mind is that if the categorization is done thoughtlessly, it will end up being wrong for many to whom it is applied, and if it is enforced it can drive a being into depression just wrestling with the wrong label. ADHD, anal-retentive, and even depression itself can serve as examples of labels that are facile to hand out, but can be a real hassle to live with where they are misused. ANd many labels--Freudian ones in particular--carry a whole model of being with them that is far off the mark in terms of allowing the individual to deal better with his own experience. Looking for your "id" in order to better yourself can be awfully frustrating. This kind of jabberwocky in the mental health business can promote insanity more than it remedies it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:47 PM

I have a friend who at one time needed psychological help. The chap assigned her quite a few 'labels' in psychobabble. She firmly mimed peeling something off her forehead and chucking it on the floor, saying "Do NOT label me!". She and I often do that mime if we hear or see any psychobabble stuff on TV while having tea together. (He probably secretly labelled her "Mrs Bloody Awkward"!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 02:55 PM

I recall an abnormal psych prof who wished there were a diagnosis of obnoxioso nervosa available...


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:00 PM

hahahaha Mrrzy, sounds like a spell from Harry Potter!


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM

Dang, Mrrzy! Maybe it was someone else you were answering, not me. ;-D Projection? Transference? Discombobulation? Parthenogenesis? The plot thickens...

Consider, Amos, what we could add to the vocabulary of popular psuedo-psychiatric jargon if Chongo and the APP managed to put several hundred American Chimps through psychiatric college and into professional practice in places like Chicago, L.A., and Pocatello. I think the dimensions of psychobabble in 21st century life could be doubled or trebled through this timely primatic approach to resolving current mental health issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 13 - 01:48 PM

I like the label mime, Eliza. We have a mime in our family that my daughter-in-law introduced. Her brother, who sadly died young of cerebral palsy, had a good sense of humour. He always used to do the bunny-ears in the air quotation marks if anyone mentioned "special" in reference to disabilities. It has stuck and is used on all sorts of labels now :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Psychobabble!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Mar 13 - 12:19 AM

Terrible curse, but not Unforgivable?


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