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2013 Obit: Hugo Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración

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meself 11 Mar 13 - 03:22 PM
gnu 11 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 11 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Mar 13 - 09:04 AM
akenaton 11 Mar 13 - 04:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Mar 13 - 01:52 PM
dbranno 10 Mar 13 - 10:54 AM
Little Hawk 10 Mar 13 - 08:35 AM
akenaton 10 Mar 13 - 06:43 AM
Bill D 09 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Mar 13 - 09:33 PM
Little Hawk 09 Mar 13 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,999 09 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 13 - 08:26 PM
Elmore 08 Mar 13 - 05:23 PM
Ed T 08 Mar 13 - 04:45 PM
pdq 08 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM
Bonzo3legs 08 Mar 13 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Mar 13 - 01:32 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Mar 13 - 01:28 AM
GUEST,999 07 Mar 13 - 10:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 13 - 10:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 13 - 10:43 PM
Bill D 07 Mar 13 - 10:21 PM
Ed T 07 Mar 13 - 09:59 PM
Ron Davies 07 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM
Ron Davies 07 Mar 13 - 09:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM
pdq 07 Mar 13 - 07:58 PM
pdq 07 Mar 13 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,999 07 Mar 13 - 07:45 PM
Bill D 07 Mar 13 - 07:37 PM
Ed T 07 Mar 13 - 06:53 PM
bobad 07 Mar 13 - 06:44 PM
Ed T 07 Mar 13 - 06:21 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 07 Mar 13 - 05:57 PM
Bonzo3legs 07 Mar 13 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,999 07 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 13 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,999 07 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM
Ron Davies 07 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM
Bill D 07 Mar 13 - 12:20 PM
bobad 07 Mar 13 - 09:04 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 07 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM
akenaton 07 Mar 13 - 07:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM
bobad 07 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM
Ed T 07 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: meself
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:22 PM

Meanwhile, Chretien - who kept us out of Iraq, when Steve wanted us in - attended the funeral ....


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM

Indeed, Sandy. I was appalled at some of the sentiments in statements of US politicians but OURS? I was more than appalled. I've got half mind to write a god damned letter.*

* Most know I will say... Canuck joke, eh. Apologies to That Canadian Guy.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 02:46 PM

Like Castro, Chavez has been villified by capitalists who see then as a threat to the corporate gravy train! Such ideas as keeping oil revenues at home to benefit the people of the country certainly made him a villan! He was democratically elected and re-elected replacing a much more corrupt regime! If he himself was so corrupt he certainly could have gained much more personal wealth taking oil company bribes than by sending those bastards packing, so go figure.........
Steve Harper has managed to embarrass Canadians once again by shitting on the sympathy card that he sent to the people of Venezuala on our behalf!
RIP Hugo!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 09:04 AM

I am sure all kinds of illiberal people would describe themselves as liberal. As Oscar Wilde said of hypocrisy, it's a kind of homage paid to virtue.

The point is, it is best used as a general term across the political spectrum, like moderate, or pragmatic, or even kind. You can have a liberal conservative or a liberal socialist, or a liberal anarchist for that matter. They aren't going to agree on much, but they are at least committed to behaving towards each other in a civilised manner.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 04:50 AM

The problem mr McGrath, is that many of the most illiberal people on this board would define themselves as liberals.

The examples of immigration controls and the place of homosexuality in society are controvercial issues with vadid arguments for and against.....however, some "liberals" apear to be on a mission to enforce their agenda and no alternative veiwpoint is tolerated.

These people seem to think that by hiding behind the notion of "equality" in a system that is patently based on inequality, anything is permissable and should not be questioned,


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 01:52 PM

The party system is one thing, the language used is another. There's no particular confusion while you're using party labels .- I mean, nobody thinks that because someone is sounding of against Democrats they are necessarily against democracy, and attacking the Republicans doesn't automatically imply they want to bring back a hereditary monarchy.

But denouncing small l liberals and liberalism is something different. It's taking a word that any decent person, right across the political spectrum, should see as positive and turning it into an attack word. As I pointed out, anyone who is actually opposed to liberals is by definition illiberal. To adopt a term sometimes used in British politics as something t avoid, it is defining yourself as belonging to the "nasty party".


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: dbranno
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:54 AM

Thank you L.H. I guess one's point of view depends on context.
Most posters here seem to be in the Americas, some pommies of course, 'Anglo-American' being a useful guide to the prevalent memes that provide the philosophical bases of the busy contributors here.
The view from the other side of the world however, is quite different.
Perhaps the patriots here, Ron, Bobad et al, could do some investigative research on the inequalities of their own country and its leadership?
And wishing the people of the sovereign state of Venezuela every success in managing their own destiny (and of course their large reserves of very high-grade oil), free of outside interference by big brother appointees...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/03/08/where-is-americas-hugo-chavez/


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 08:35 AM

Here's another article about Chavez's revolution:

50 Truths about Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution

One thing you can be sure of about 99% of the time...if the USA mass media are in the habit of reviling, demonizing, and ridiculing any Latin American leader, it is because he is helping the poor people in his country...and frustrating the efforts of the American big business community and the international bankers to exploit his country for their own profit and keep the poor people down in wretched poverty, without education, without medical care, and without hope.

If so....then he's a deadly enemy of American big business and multinational corporations, and you can expect a CIA-sponsored coup or an invasion at some point to bring his government down. (Such a coup was attempted once on Chavez, but the attempt failed.)

Fortunately for Latin Americans, the USA has been so disastrously embroiled in the Middle East for the last couple of decades that progressive movements in Latin America have managed to make much headway recently. The great Anglo-American Empire simply doesn't have the financial or military resources to completely dominate politics everywhere all at the same time, though it would certainly like to. Empires fail when their reach finally exceeds their grasp.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 06:43 AM

"The System" rules. You can call yourselves anything you like, just don't dare question the system.

If a real socialist movement were to emerge in the US or UK all your prized human rights would vanish overnight.

The beast would be exposed for what it is!

End of story.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM

One of the problems with liberal & conservative in the US is that the system doesn't easily allow for other terms and designations... as if everyone must cram into one or the other.
We really need a multi-party setup, so Tea Partiers can have their own splinter group and let Republicans...well... be something else. But the electoral college design and various primary routines... plus the media... are constructed so as to keep the status quo.

I know...there are 'other' parties, but all one can do is ruin an election for one of the big two.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 09:33 PM

Thanks appreciated, and returned, 999.

I think if we heard about a country where a word closely allied to "liberal", "moderate", was used as a term of abuse in the same way, I think we would take this as a clear indication there was something seriously amiss in that country's political and social life.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 07:04 PM

Here's an article in today's Toronto Star about the passing of Mr Chavez:

By:Tony BurmanSpecial to the Star, Published on Sat Mar 09 2013

Millions of euphoric Venezuelans poured onto the streets, happily celebrating the end of a regime that grabbed much of the nation's oil wealth for itself, pillaged the treasury and doomed most of the population to extreme poverty. But that wasn't this week in Caracas, of course, after the death of Hugo Chavez. That was in December 1998, in towns and cities throughout Venezuela, when Chavez was first elected president. We need to remember the past to better assess the future, and we can be certain that most Latin Americans do.

The legacy of Latin America's most dominant leader since Fidel Castro will undoubtedly reverberate beyond the borders of Venezuela. His death comes at a time when Cuba's post-Castro era is finally in sight and when several progressive South American governments — fiercely independent of overbearing American influence — are gaining in popularity. In the tortured history of modern Latin America, where elites have freely cashed in their national sovereignty for personal enrichment, we may be witnessing a historic new chapter and, perhaps, a new start with its meddlesome American neighbours.

To many outside of Venezuela, largely fuelled by a hostile American media, Hugo Chavez was a clown and a buffoon. To others, he was deservedly criticized for tolerating mismanagement and corruption, and for trying to intimidate his political opponents. By any measure, his years in power were flawed and chaotic.

But that is not the complete story, and most Venezuelans do not forget that. When Chavez was elected in 1998, his government replaced decades of corrupt and greedy rule by political and business elites — openly supported by the United States — who squandered the nation's wealth.

During his years as president, millions of Venezuelans received health care for the first time. Extreme poverty was reduced by 70 per cent and access to public education increased dramatically. Illiteracy has virtually been eradicated. Above all, the vast Venezuelan majority, marginalized and ignored by governments in past decades, assumed a dignity and pride of place that had been unheard of in the modern Latin American political culture.

Since September 2001, the United States has virtually ignored the region, and the Latin American response has been eye-opening. The populist approach by Chavez, which challenged conventional political and economic thinking, has been contagious.

This is the one region that did not respond to the 2008 global recession with across-the-board austerity. Instead, several governments expanded public services, reduced poverty and inequality, and nationalized key industries. The result has been strong economies and a string of popular governments that have actually been reelected.

Apart from Chavez, who won last October's presidential election in Venezuela with an 11 per cent margin, the latest example of this is Rafael Correa, reelected last month as Ecuador's president with 57 per cent of the vote. Last year, Latin America's first indigenous president, Evo Morales, was elected in Bolivia and, in 2009, Dilma Rousseff was voted in as president of Brazil.

The distinction of Latin America in today's global political context is that it is far more independent of the United States than other regions, such as Europe or — dare I say — Canada. And that is a staggering irony given its history in the past century of being a virtual vassal, or doormat, of the U.S.

I made my first visit to South America in the mid-1970s, travelling by bus for more than a year from one country to another. Virtually all of them were military governments, supported by the United States, and most were very dismissive of any semblance of human rights. The most notorious example during that period was Chile, led then by Gen. Augusto Pinochet.

I recall so many people remarking to me that the Canadian government, above all, was promoting a foreign policy that was independent of the United States. As we try to assess the legacy of Chavez, it is striking to realize that, since that period, Latin America and Canada seem to have switched places.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM

"The way it [the term, liberal] is used in the USA is worrying. It must surely tend to take that limit away, and make it harder for liberal conservatives to speak out. It's a distortion of language which feeds into a distortion of politics."

You have put into words what I have been unable to. Many thanks, McG of H.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM

This letter from today's guardian is interesting as provides a few facts about Venezuela's economic situation that put into question some of the assertions being peddled about it being in a desperate state:

• In September 2012, the IMF estimated Venezuela's fiscal deficit at 7.4% of GDP and its interest payments at 3% of export earnings. Venezuela's "swollen" public sector is actually around 18.4% of the workforce, lower than in most European countries; and Venezuela ended 2012 with GDP growth of 5.5% and an inflation rate of 19.9%, which although high, is a significant reduction from 27.2% in 2010, not to mention its peak of 103.2% in 1996, prior to Chávez's first presidency. Indeed as Mark Weisbrot reported in this newspaper (Report, 4 March): "As for Venezuela's public debt … a better measure is the burden of the foreign part of this debt, which in 2012 was about 1% of GDP, or 4.1% of Venezuela's export earnings."

From the perspective of crisis-ridden Britain, where austerity is clearly not working, Venezuela's economy is robust in comparison. Chávez leaves a Venezuela in control of its sovereign oil wealth, committed and determined to build a society geared to meeting people's needs, rather than lining the pockets of the few.
Sam McGill
Editor, vivavenezuela.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 08:26 PM

Properly speaking the opposite of liberal isn't conservative, it's illiberal. It's perfectly possible for someone to be a liberal conservative, just as its possible for people anywhere along the left right spectrum to be illiberal.

No one in most countries would use a term like small l liberal as a hostile label. In fact even people whose beliefs and practices are extremely illiberal will be likely to adopt the label. And in it's way that is not a bad thing, since it puts at least some limit on nakedly illiberal ideology.

The way it is used in the USA is worrying. It must surely tend to take that limit away, and make it harder for liberal conservatives to speak out. It's a distortion of language which feeds into a distortion of politics.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Elmore
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 05:23 PM

BREAKING NEWS> chavez still dead.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 04:45 PM

Venezuela, as with many South American countries, has always ranked high on the corruption scale, hardly something to blame on Chavez. However, while Chavez made progress on increasing the lot of the poor, corruption in government and business remains at a crisis level. Anyone travelling or doing business in that nation has always to build lots of "bribe money" into costs to keep things moving smoothly. It is likely a hard place for residents to get by, unless you are rich or connected.

It is nice to see the good outlook in Chili and Uraguay. How does your country rate?


Corruption map


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: pdq
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:46 PM

Before the 2004 recall election, polls showed he would lose by over 70%.

He won with about 58%.

He could have made that 99+% like good ol' Saddam Husein did, but he knew that he had to make it seem reasonable. People were watching, you see.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:40 PM

Like Cristina Kirshner in Argentina, Chavez almost certainly bribed the less well of to vote for him!!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:32 AM

Oh yeah..I almost forgot..."Obit: Chavez Dead"
By next week, Americans will be more preoccupied with Kim Kardasian's new Botox lips, and Taylor Swift's new song about her last boyfriend!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Mar 13 - 01:28 AM

999: "2) I am still waiting for someone to give me the working definition of liberal (presumably a name interchangeable with leftist) that keeps getting strewn around for some reason or other."

I usually call them "so-called liberals", because 'liberal' is the furthest thing from them. I find the modern day 'so-called liberals' some of the most close minded, pedantic whiners, hating, name calling spoiled little immature brats, living in a delusion of utopia around the corner, that the world has seen in centuries..if ever!!!! It's gotten so bad, that Conservatives look more liberal!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:58 PM

"Surely the intellectual giants who grace Mudcat can come up; with something. beyond dark mumblings, a skill which they certainly have mastered."

If you have such disdain for people here, why do you post?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:43 PM

The presumption of innocence is not relevant. It is fundamental that it should operate in all trials, and it is desperately sad that has been inverted into a presumption of guilt in so many quasi-legal proceedings in recent years.

But it is a principle that applies in relation to trials, it does not mean that investigations should not be possible unless there is clear evidence of guilt in advance.

As I said, I think it is most likely that Chavez died of natural causes. But I do not think it is possible at this stage to be certain that the suspicions aired by people who know far more about the circumstances than any of us are wrong.

A rush to judgement can just as easily involve prematurely rejecting suspicions as prematurely accepting them.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:43 PM

The presumption of innocence is not relevant. It is fundamental that it should operate in all trials, and it is desperately sad that has been inverted into a presumption of guilt in so many quasi-legal proceedings in recent years.

But it is a principle that applies in relation to trials, it does not mean that investigations should not be possible unless there is clear evidence of guilt in advance.

As I said, I think it is most likely that Chavez died of natural causes. But I do not think it is possible at this stage to be certain that the suspicions aired by people who know far more about the circumstances than any of us are wrong.

A rush to judgement can just as easily involve prematurely rejecting suspicions as prematurely accepting them.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 10:21 PM

Yeah.. it does look like Jerry Brewer's main interest is hyping his own credentials, doesn't it? It doesn't say he's wrong, but it does behoove us to look for corroborating sources.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:59 PM

When I look at the media reports on Chavez and the money it is said he amassed, the common source is the USA based Criminal Justice International Associates (CJIA). When I check out the site, it seems "sketchy" not specializing in this type of information, and seems like it may be a one man show, (Jerry Brewer, a former cop who heads up a risk assessment and global analysis firm). I could not even finfd the information referred to in the media sites on this companies site?.

- not at alll the type of "reliable source' I would trust on on a matter like this one. Could we be dealing with disinformation, an old art?

CRIMINAL JUSTICE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATES


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:55 PM

"come up with something beyond"


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:52 PM

"keep an open mind" for the US assassination of Chavez.

Whatever you say.

So leftists really are incapable of distingishing between rumor and theory. That's interesting.

Please do us a favor and don't try to write any books on history.   It's hard enough to figure out what happened without absurd mixing of rumor and theory, let alone fact.

And still we wait patiently for information from our brilliant friends left of center on Chavez' health in the past--which might possibly be germane to the topic.    If they do not comply, I will provide information on Mr. Chavez' health history.

What's interesting is that it seems they don't even really have a good grasp of the English language.

"Rush to judgment" almost always has to do with rushing to find something negative without due consideration, especially assuming guilt. It does not have to do with assuming innocence.    In fact I seem to recall that the presumption of innocence may possibly be asssociated with a legal code in the US, and, who knows, perhaps in the UK.

At least a bit of evidence is required before losing the presumption of innocence.

So, yet again, where is the evidence that the US murdered Chavez?   Surely the intellectual giants who grace Mudcat can come up; with something. beyond dark mumblings, a skill which they certainly have mastered.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 08:36 PM

, he was just like Yasser Arafat.

Are you going back to those suggestions of foul play, pd?

Why not say $10 billion while you're about it? Don't be so stingy.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: pdq
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:58 PM

BTW, he was just like Yasser Arafat.

Both wanted to be leaders and do good.

Arafat did real good. $700 million in Swiss bank accounts.

Hugo Chavez did even gooder. $2 billion in foreign banks.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: pdq
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:49 PM

It sounds too slick to really be from Stalin, but somebody said: "It's not who votes that counts. It's who counts the votes."

Chavez boys counted the votes.

After the recall election of 2004 total was announced, it was said that "Jimmy Carter said nothing and left".


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:45 PM

"Carefully spreading money among the poor can get you elected, with no strife or complaints."

Governments would do well to remember that.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:37 PM

Peter K... I know similar things to what bobad linked to.. (thanks, bobad)

From that link:"The endless debate about whether Mr. Chávez was a dictator or democrat — he was in fact a hybrid, an elected autocrat.."
Perhaps I should have chosen 'autocrat' rather than suggesting 'dictator'.

Carter's decision that the elections were open & fair does not preclude them being manipulated to look that way. Carefully spreading money among the poor can get you elected, with no strife or complaints.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:53 PM

Hear it yourself, rather than others:


Larry King interviews Chavez 2009


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:44 PM

NY Times Op-Ed piece by Rory Carroll on Chavez's legacy.

PeterK, if you Google "Chavez rigged elections" the resulting links should keep you occupied for a couple of days but, of course, it's all propaganda.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 06:21 PM

The president of Brazil, (2003 through 2010) on Chavez


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 05:57 PM

What, Bill D, do you know about Venezuelan elections that was overlooked by international observers, including Jimmy Carter, who regularly judged them open and fair? Or was "manipulated" just your own unprejudiced assumption?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 04:32 PM

Good riddance - rumour has it that he was shagging Alicia Castro, the former Argentine ambassador to Venezuela and current ambassador to the UK!!


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM

Thank you, McG of H.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:42 PM

f liberal (presumably a name interchangeable with leftist)

Not in most countries. With a big L it can mean just about anything, but generally a party on the centre or right. With a small l it would mean someone with moderate views, which can of course mean different things in different countries.

This seems to be one of those "only in America" things.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM

1) Chavez died from complications cause by cancer. He's had it for a long time--anyway from before June, 2011.

2) I am still waiting for someone to give me the working definition of liberal (presumably a name interchangeable with leftist) that keeps getting strewn around for some reason or other.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM

There is no need to produce evidence for something that you are not asserting.

Keeping an open mind is not the same as making an accusation.   It's no more rational to rule out the accusation made by the acting President of Venezuela than it would be to assume that it is justified.   Inevitably we make estimates of what feels more likely to us
- mine would be that Chavez died of natural causes - but these are just subjective guesses, and we shouldn't treat them as certainty.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM

OK.   Sure is interesting that despite being asked several times for some actual evidence that the US murdered Chavez, those who want to consider this possibility have come up with precisely zilch.

One might think they indeed have no such evidence.

They don't even show any knowledge of Chavez' health prior to this month--despite being asked for that also.

So, as I said, the assassination idea is nothing more than a rumor. But leftists seem to feel that unless you consider that every crackpot rumor might be true, you are not being fair. As I pointed out, rejection of rumor means that you can think--and are willing to do so. A rare quality in leftists, it seems.

Please let us know when you have some actual evidence.    It seems clear the idea is, bluntly, no more than yet another example of leftist paranoia.

As I noted earlier, it's amazing, with so many self-inflicted nightmares, that leftists get any sleep at night.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 12:20 PM

Well Peter K ... while I am quite aware that Chavez was elected, I am also aware that his continued 'elections' were pretty well manipulated. A dictator is usually identified and defined by how thoroughly he controls the machinery of his country, not by whether he pleases a certain % while doing it. Chavez ...whatever YOU wish to call him, was smarter than many who get continued control of a country, and realized that superficial benevolence would get him further than the outright iron fist of those like Pinochet. Dictators are not a simple definition... they come in many forms along a continuum...and we can differ as to the point where the appropriate noun changes from "clever politician" to "strong man" to "dictator".

As to my "prejudice". I always thought prejudice was a blind adherence to one point of view based on personal attitudes, with resistance to any other point of view. I can read those accounts of folks who praise him...(see various links above) and I can also find accounts of those who can see beyond his 'oil charity'. If he had stayed healthy, I would not have been surprised to see him become another Castro: in power for many years, but with oil billions to soothe complaints.

I have an opinion, after watching him for several years. Why should I not just characterize YOUR opinion as prejudice?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:04 AM

Human Rights Watch report on Venezuela released two days ago:

Venezuela: Chávez's Authoritarian Legacy

" Hugo Chávez's presidency (1999-2013) was characterized by a dramatic concentration of power and open disregard for basic human rights guarantees."

But he did cut a dashing figure with his red beret and phony socialist rhetoric, did he not?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:01 AM

Much of that anti-Chavez rhetoric spewing out of the States is fuelled by his warm relations with Iran. Not warm enough in my view, because he never supported Iran's aspiration to develop nuclear weapons.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:49 AM

Naw....cant be right!....there's only been one nuclear strike, pre-emptive or otherwise, but its been so long since it happened that i just can't remember who did it.

Oh just a threat?.....well they all do that...don't they.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:46 AM

I wouldn't hold my breath about that.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:40 AM

And this just in from the other glorious leader: N Korea threatens US with nuclear attack

"North Korea has vowed to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the US, hours ahead of a UN vote on whether to level new sanctions against Pyongyang for its recent nuclear test."


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Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:21 AM

From this report, it seems that Chevez was on the right course, with the right intent-but faced unforseen problems (I suspect from inside the coumntry, and encouraged from outside).

When I reviewed some of the items raised, in measuring the deficiencies, I considered whether similar things have happened or is happening in regimes in other countries, especially western countries and south American nations. I found that not all, but some of the items are similar, such as packing legal bodies (Supreme Court) with those supportative of government policies and attempts to curtail strikes in essential industries.

Again, is it reasonable to measure Chavez against a higher scale than other leaders in similar situations - a scale that others also don't mmeasure up to?

Chavez and Human rights


full report


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