mudcat.org: 2013 Obit: Hugo Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


2013 Obit: Hugo Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración

Related threads:
BS: Hugo Chavez feeling poorly? (25)
BS: Chavez moves against second TV channel (164)
BS: Ahmahdinejad & Chavez- Progressives! (37)
Chavez Promotes Venezuelan Folk Music (29)
BS: US Admin ignoring Chavez death threat? (24)


bobad 05 Mar 13 - 05:36 PM
Bobert 05 Mar 13 - 07:16 PM
kendall 05 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM
Ed T 05 Mar 13 - 07:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 13 - 07:57 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Mar 13 - 08:01 PM
bobad 05 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 13 - 08:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 13 - 08:27 PM
bobad 05 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 05 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM
catspaw49 05 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM
Jack Campin 05 Mar 13 - 09:23 PM
Bill D 05 Mar 13 - 09:34 PM
bobad 05 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM
bobad 05 Mar 13 - 09:42 PM
bobad 05 Mar 13 - 09:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM
number 6 05 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM
Ed T 05 Mar 13 - 10:04 PM
Bill D 05 Mar 13 - 10:40 PM
gnu 05 Mar 13 - 10:55 PM
Ron Davies 05 Mar 13 - 11:16 PM
EBarnacle 06 Mar 13 - 01:21 AM
akenaton 06 Mar 13 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,CS 06 Mar 13 - 04:22 AM
dbranno 06 Mar 13 - 06:06 AM
MarkS 06 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 09:44 AM
Ron Davies 06 Mar 13 - 09:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 11:49 AM
Ron Davies 06 Mar 13 - 01:02 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 02:38 PM
akenaton 06 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM
Ron Davies 06 Mar 13 - 03:37 PM
Ed T 06 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,999 06 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM
Ed T 06 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM
Ron Davies 06 Mar 13 - 05:24 PM
ollaimh 06 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM
pdq 06 Mar 13 - 07:21 PM
Stringsinger 06 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 09:29 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 06 Mar 13 - 09:43 PM
bobad 06 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 13 - 10:13 PM
bobad 06 Mar 13 - 10:13 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:36 PM

Cancer fells comrade Chavez - Vice President Nicolas Maduro accuses President Hugo Chavez's enemies of poisoning him with the cancer he has been battling for nearly two years.

"Behind all of [the plots] are the enemies of the fatherland," he said on state television.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:16 PM

Sniff...

He was an okay guy in lots of ways...

B`


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: kendall
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

He cared more about our poor than our own government did. I buy CITGO gas whenever I can.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM

Yeah, they are saying the U.S. plotted, and gave him cancer.....oh well, if you believe that, it's probably because you've been well trained to believe lying government statements....and God only knows, we've had a lot of practice here!

GfS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:38 PM

OK, he Chavez was left leaning, and not like imperialisism, and spoke out gainst some of the past USA government (Latin America area)actions of this type (as the USA had a major impact in the region in the past, that benefited USA companies and policies). But, many in the USA, on the left, have said similar things.

Is it not a time to be objective about his governing record, like him or not?

The Achievements of Hugo Chavez


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:57 PM

The suspicions might well be wrong. But the assumption that they are absurd is as shaky as sinilar assumptions would be about, say, the authorities in Russia in regard to Litvinenko. Or Israel, in regard to Arafat's, where similar suspicions have been raised.

Governments are capable of just about every kind of nastiness, pretty well all governments.

And in te case of Chavez it is inevitable that the history of the reported 638 assassination attempts against Fidel Cstro over the years must colour the thinking of Venezuelans.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:01 PM

Bravo Kendall.

Chavez improved the lot of millions in his own country; he funded the fabulously successful el sistema youth-orchestras programme which has lured hundreds of thousands of impoverished youngsters away from drugs and crime, and he played a major role in helping Cuba survive what would otherwise have been crippling sanctions imposed by successive US admins.

He had his flaws, but definitely one of the good guys.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:09 PM

McGrath, if you have a plausible theory of how he may have been poisoned with cancer by his enemies I, and I'm sure medical science, would love to hear it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:13 PM

Trailer about El Sistema


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:27 PM

I didn't say I had "a theory", or that I had any particular suspicions - I just said that it is perfectly reasonable for suspicions to be raised,just as it would be if analogous suspicions were levied at Russia.

The fact that they are in this case directed at the USA is completely irrelevant. The apparent technical problems in carrying out such an assassination are relevant, but none of us know enough to dismiss the possibility out of hand merely on those grounds.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM

It seems that all is not rosy in the socialist paradise:

Like almost all socialist experiments, Chavez's "Bolivarian Revolution" was pointless and harmful. It has left Venezuela with a basket-case economy. Venezuela's currency, the bolivar, suffers from 20% inflation and has been devalued five times in a decade. Chavez increased economic equality by spreading the poverty around. His attempts to promote nutrition through price controls resulted in food shortages and malnutrition. He spent millions on unfinished or never started public works projects. Chavez kept Venezuela afloat by exploiting the guaranteed income from the nationalized oil industry, which accounted for over half of government revenue. Nevertheless, he ran up massive budget deficits and increased foreign debt holdings, principally by China.

Not everyone approved of Chavez's revolution, but they risked their lives if they went public with their criticism. Chavez jailed critical journalists and harassed press outlets that questioned his rule. Armies of pro-Chavez street thugs intimidated, beat and sometimes killed political opponents. A pliant, Chavez-controlled judiciary gave a rubber-stamp of legitimacy to the revolutionary repression. Workers were forbidden from organizing except in approved, state-controlled unions. Elections and referenda were rigged, and international election monitors were kicked out of the country if they tried to do their jobs too effectively.

USA Today


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:08 PM

"...he ran up massive budget deficits and increased foreign debt holdings, principally by China."

I wonder why that sounds so familiar, Bobad?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:21 PM

Doesn't matter.....It is in the past. The new problem is he handpicked a guy to replace him that believes someone gave him cancer.......and now this nabob is in control of the country with the world's largest oil supply.


Spaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:23 PM

if you have a plausible theory of how he may have been poisoned with cancer by his enemies I, and I'm sure medical science, would love to hear it.

A man in the UK was convicted of murdering his wife by giving her liver cancer through deliberate aflatoxin poisoning.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:34 PM

Some interesting comments here... I never thought of Chavez as "one of the good guys". He embraced many of the policies of Iran and various anti-American opinions. He operated as close to a dictator as one can be while using the perfunctory elections as cover.
It always felt to me like he used that oil 'generosity' to gain "brownie points" while undermining serious world issues.

I guess I'll read more commentary and see what the pundits say.


(and... just heard Eugene Robinson, whom I respect a lot- and who knew Chaveze, give a pretty scathing picture of Chavez' years in power.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:38 PM

From what I recall he had a tumour removed from the pelvic area and even though the source was never revealed speculation was that the cancer originated in the prostate, colon or some other gastrointestinal area.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:42 PM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:44 PM

I'm with you Bill, I've always had an aversion to autocrats who plaster oversized pictures of themselves around the country.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM

By contrast isn't the capitalist system doing such a great job in countries like Greece...or Spain...or Italy...or England...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: number 6
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 09:47 PM

"House Intelligence Chairman Mike Rogers: Chavez was a destabilizing force in Latin America and an obstacle to progress."

Mike Rogers can go f@$k himself.

biLL


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 10:04 PM

""I never thought of Chavez as "one of the good guys"".

How many of those "good Guys" are remembered in the history of government leaders in Central and south America, (in comparison)?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 10:40 PM

Not sure what your point is, Ed.... do you mean just *remembered*? or remembered AS good? I can name several who will sure be 'remembered'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: gnu
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 10:55 PM

He called Bush "The Devil" and "a donkey". I liked the guy. Not for having any more insight than any of the rest of us but for his willingness and balls to say so.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 11:16 PM

No question, the US killed him. Of course.

Just like the West toppled Gaddafi to take over Libya, since Libya is just another Sudetenland. After all, a Mudcatter told us this, so it must be true.

Notice how effectively the West is now governing Libya at present.

And the US put the maid up to try to discredit that French socialist with the rich wife- wife I think had a last name of Sinclair--can't remember his name -- wasn't he with the IMF?---how soon we forget.   Entrapment by the maid and false accusations against the socialist, who is pure as the driven (well, slush anyway). And all engineered by (pick one), the CIA, DOD, FBI, any other group you'd like to finger.

Leftist theories are nothing if not imaginative.

But it would be totally unfair to reject the conspiracy theory du jour, since after all, just because it's a crackpot theory doesn't mean it didn't happen.    Mr. Chavez of course always took care of himself, got enough sleep, ate right, had no stress. exercised every day, was slim and muscled.    It couldn't possibly have been his own health problems that killed him.

By the way, do all leftist theories originate in British pubs or are they just the spiritual inspiration for them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: EBarnacle
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:21 AM

And right wing theories are models of rationality?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:09 AM

I'm cheered by the surprising attitude of most members on the contribution of Mr Chavez to his country and his people.
Perfect? no. But infinitely superior to the career politicians who govern(prey on), the electorate of most nations.

Maybe there is a little hope left for our children and grandchildren?
Ditch "democracy"........get a life!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:22 AM

My knowledge of South American politics is extremely poor, perhaps in part because such countries are almost never in the news here in the UK. It'll be informative and interesting to follow the obits and commentary following Chavez's death. Hopefully I'll learn something.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: dbranno
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:06 AM

Venezuelan society, economics and politics have been and continue to be about much more than who is 'fearless leader'.
The link below provides an interesting viewpoint on the 'third way' of co-operation and participatory economic i.e. neither laissez faire 'free market' capitalism, nor state controlled collectivism or 'communism'; something courageous that is part of Venezuela's social contract and future planning apparently.

http://www.zcommunications.org/bringing-balance-the-proutist-alternative-by-andy-douglas#comment_container_191442


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: MarkS
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:54 AM

Venezuela under Chavez gave some substantial subsidies to Cuba. No one has mentioned it yet, but I wonder if these subsidies will continue after a successor to Chaves is chosen in the upcoming special election.

And what would be the effect on our region if the subsidies end?

Interesting to speculate.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:44 AM

No reason to think that the new government will have a different attitude to Cuba, assuming that Chavez's favoured candidate, Nicolas Maduro is elected in a month's time, which can't be assumed. They have real elections in Venezuela since Chavez came along.

After being a bus driver and underground trade union activist under the previous regime - when Trade Unions were banned (with approval from backers of the regime in North America), he spent some time in Cuba studying. So he might be good at keeping things on the road and avoiding accidents...

It will be interesting to see who gets sent to the funeral from various countries.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:49 AM

I never said right wing theories are models of rationality.   Please pay attention.

It's just that on Mudcat we are graced with more brilliant intellectuals on the Left than on the Right.

However just yesterday I noted how easy it is to be a moderate on Mudcat--with rabid partisans on both the Left and Right always ready to flame out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 11:49 AM

" just because it's a crackpot theory doesn't mean it didn't happen. "

The trouble is, that actually happens to be true. Equally, just because something is plausible doesn't mean it's. true.   Evidence is what matters, not gut feelings about whether something is crackpot or plausible. Much of the time we don't have the evidence to judge either way, and should recognise we live in an uncertain world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:02 PM

Sorry, the vast majority of the time what appear to be crackpot theories are exactly that.

Please be so good as to give us some actual evidence that the US caused Chavez'
death, since that is the question before us.   You need not cite Iran 1953 or something similar. We are only talking about Venezuela 2013.   And please tell us how healthy Chavez was before yesterday.   If you know nothing about his health, you have no means to make an intelligent comment.   Not that that has ever stopped any Mudcatter in the past.

Without actual evidence, this idea remains a crackpot theory.


No matter how much you may want to be "fair" by including any possibility, no matter how remote.    We still need evidence.


Otherwise the theory remains yet another self-inflicted Leftist nightmare.   It's amazing Leftists ever get any sleep.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

" ....the contribution of Mr Chavez to his country and his people."

Oh indeed! And Pablo Escobar in Colombia used to pass out money and do
'good deeds' for the poor.... the money he gave them was from sales of cocaine, and those who tried to stop him were ruthlessly murdered!

Good deeds have to be considered in a larger context...
"Hello, little girl. Would you like a candy bar?"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 02:38 PM

If I was making allegations you'd be quite right to challenge me Ron. But I'm not. I don't think either of us have enough information to know what's crackpot and what's not.

It's quite true that many theories that seem absurd are in fact false. But it is also true that many plausible explanations are false.

The case that there were WMDs in Iraq seemed to many people far more plausible than the theory that our rulers were conspiring to lie about it. It seemed reasonable enough that General Powell was right to believe the information with which he had been supplied and was transmitting in his speech to the UN. He has now said his informants misled him, which would have seemed a pretty crackpot allegation.

We shouldn't rush to judgement in either direction. We don't have the information, and it's not our job to guess.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM

Glass half empty Bill?

Seems a strange post for you.
Mr Chavez seemed to engender a spirit of optimism and community in his people.   The nation believed him and evidently loved him, given the public grief which was on show today...and appeared genuine.

When Fidel dies I'm sure the same emotions will be observed, probably on an even larger scale.
Men like Chavez and Castro have nothing to hide, they are driven by their true socialist ideology.......people respond to honesty.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:37 PM

"rush to judgment"

As I recall you said something similar about Strauss-Kahn and the theory that the US had put the maid up to this accusation.

Years later, we're still waiting for you to admit you were way off base on this.   Somehow, it's not surprising.   I think it will still be a bit of a wait--you conspiracy theorist buffs never seem to get around to admitting you were wrong.

There's the little matter of evidence on the Chavez matter. Still waiting for it.

And you were going to tell us about Chavez' health history.    If you don't know about this, you can make no intelligent comment on the topic. Can't understand how it could have slipped your mind to tell us about the health history.    Couldn't possibly have been since it does not support the assassination theory. Of course not.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM

Should one consider some type of consistant scale, when weighing in on one past nations leaders against another?

I say this because some of criticism that could easily be used to discredit Chavez and put him in a poor light, could just as easily be ignored or dismissed when evaluating the contributions of other less controversial leaders - those that some (including the western media) may tend to favour.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:05 PM

The poor of Venezuela liked him. And the poor to whom he gave heating oil a few years back (in the USA).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM

I spent two weeks in Venezuela in the late 80's and travelled to many different parts of the country. The diparity I noted at that time between the very rich and poor was very evident, and especially so in Caracas. Upscale, gated houses overlooked illegal communities made up of tin shacks with open sewers and head high electric wires strung about - all perched on the steep slopes of the sourrounding muddy hills. I suspect it was these very poor housing conditions that has improved under Chavez.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:19 PM

*shaking my head at those who just focus on how well a dictator can be received if he gives a few presents and 'improves' the lot of the poor from totally miserable to just sad & weary*

Of course the outpouring of emotion for him by many was genuine... that is not enough in my judgment to demonstrate his place in history as a benevolent friend of humanity.

What was the line? "Mussolini made the trains run on time."
Some were genuinely upset at HIS death also.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:24 PM

"conspiracy theory buffs"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: ollaimh
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM

chavez and his party stopped giving their oli resources virtuall for free to american corpoations. there is very little the powerfull in america hate more than that. they has manipulated an elite class to sell out thier nations precious non renewable resources by giving only that sdmall american supporting class the benifits of the oil revenues.

i wouldn't doubt american leader would kill chavez if they got the chance, but i haven't seen any evidence of it happening. pat robertson openly advocated assination of chavez. robertson is part of the fascist religious right. they also funded the genocidal government of rios mont in guatemala, which was responsible for the murd3r of a quarter of a million natives. this for just wanting land rights. so americans can do incredibly violent things in the third world, usualyy through proxies. btw robertosn admitted his involvement with mont, but said it was a mistake. genocide is a mistake, sorry pat genoide and mass murder are crimes against humanity.

america has been the worlds greatest exporter of terrorism since vietnam(where they used widespread chemical warfare--can you say weapons of mass destruction?). of course they hate any opposition, and demonize any opposition leader. would they kill him? in a minute if they could! shesh they ignore four hundred murders on pine ridge reservation during the war on the sioux nations. murder only bothers them if its against their own.

i do hope chavez's party can continue to keep the oil benefits at home and give them to the people and not just the elite.

as to his governments economic troubles--the usa has done everything they can yto undermine the venezualian economy, just short of the hatefull embargo on cuba. and did anyone know there has been a world wide recession/depression since the war monger financial elites got cought robbing the banks and the public and the fraudulent financial syatem almost collapsed?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: pdq
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:21 PM

We finally have a topic that cleaves-off the extreme Leftists from the garden variety Liberals.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:30 PM

Watch the oil company sharks try to make a foothold in Venezuela. Watch out for U.S. decision-making on how to gain oil access there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:29 PM

If you check back Ron, I never suggested that Strauss-Kahn was set up by the US. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I suggested that if anyone had set him up it would have more likely to have been French adversaries. And of course that it was wrong to jump to any conclusions merely on the basis of headlines, which people were doing. Isn't that always true?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:43 PM

Seems you will clutch at any straw, Bill D, to press your prejudice.

On what basis do you call Chavez, elected and re-elected in open and fair elections, a dictator (your emphasis)? Here's a simple aide memoire which might help you avoid confusion: Pinochet (who was installed and supported by the US) was a dictator; Allende was a democrat. Or try this rule of thumb: if a head of state has US patronage, it's probably a dicator.

Chavez lifted millions out of poverty at the expense of corporate interests, the wealthy and the middle-class; the millions who previously were unable to afford three square meals a day, decent education and proper healthcare - just like millions in the US are still living their lives now. All that is indisputable. What is in dispute is whether it is OK for millions to be impoverished so that a few can be rich. You don't need to tell me where you stand on that, Bill.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:08 PM

Fernando Espuelas
Host of "The Fernando Espuelas Show" on Univision America Network

Hugo Chavez Is No Hero

Hugo Chavez is dead -- but he is no hero. Even as his supporters pour into the streets to mourn their fallen idol, the damage he caused to Venezuela is incalculable.

From an over-dependence on oil revenues, to a forced nationalization of the private economy, and a personal foreign policy of ego gratification, Chavez leaves a Venezuela in chaos, with weak institutions and an uncertain future.

History will not be kind to him. His petro-socialism was never a self-sustaining economic or social development model. Venezuela under Chavez's reign has deteriorated to the point where it must import milk. Chavez's Venezuela can no longer feed itself.

Hugo Chavez lied to the people, convincing many that his magical powers would save them from misery. There was no magic solution to resolve Venezuela's myriad social problems.

Even as he jetted across the globe with allies like Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Chavez tolerated waves of urban violence -- turning Caracas into one of the most violent cities in the world.

Among his other international adventures, Chavez supported the FARC terrorists fighting the democratically elected government of Colombia (a country also founded by Bolivar!). His attempt to play the regional leader met with widespread ridicule -- even generating the now famous royal command to "shut up" from King Juan Carlos, a normally very calm man driven to desperation by Chavez's offish behavior at a summit. Being dressed down in public by the King of Spain is an unmatched achievement in the annals of modern Ibero-American relations.

Public corruption, including the enrichment of the Chavez family, has also damaged Venezuela. Like the wounds created by the Peron regime in Argentina, the social fabric has been torn. Divide and conquer of different social sectors has been Chavez's formula for continuing as paramount leader of Venezuela.

While another key component of this formula has been the militarization of the regime, and in turn, the politicization of the armed forces. Bribed with outlandish weapons purchases and generous patronage, Chavez remade the Venezuelan military into a tool of his rule.

Chavez will go the way of many highly theatrical dictators. Once upon a time there was a statue of Francisco Franco in almost every city and town in Spain, his profile appeared on Spanish coins, and he paraded himself from the King's Balcony at Madrid's Royal Palace, resplendent banners dating from the Spanish Empire draped in front of him.

Now? Franco is seen for what he truly was -- a dictator with a megalomaniacal self-regard and a willingness to commit violence in order to stay in power. Today, no more statues, no more coins, nada. That is the fate of Hugo Chavez's place in history as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:13 PM

Well if the 'Host of "The Fernando Espuelas Show" on Univision America Network' says it there's no arguing with that...

When was it Franco got elected?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Obit: Chavez Dead - Viva la Conspiración
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:13 PM

State Ruled by Crime and Chávez Family
SIMON ROMERO
The New York Times

BARINAS, Venezuela — Stretching over vast cattle estates at the foothills of the Andes, Barinas is known for two things: as the bastion of the family of President Hugo Chávez and as the setting for a terrifying surge in abductions, making it a contender for Latin America's most likely place to get kidnapped.

An intensifying nationwide crime wave over the past decade has pushed the kidnapping rate in Venezuela past Colombia's and Mexico's, with about 2 abductions per 100,000 inhabitants, according to the Interior Ministry.

But nowhere in Venezuela comes close in abductions to Barinas, with 7.2 kidnappings per 100,000 inhabitants, as armed gangs thrive off the disarray here while Mr. Chávez's family tightens its grip on the state. Seizures of cattle ranches and crumbling infrastructure also contribute to the sense of low-intensity chaos.

Barinas offers a unique microcosm of Mr. Chávez's rule. Many poor residents still revere the president, born here into poverty in 1954. But polarization in Barinas is growing more severe, with others chafing at his newly prosperous parents and siblings, who have governed the state since the 1990s. While Barinas is a laboratory for projects like land reform, urgent problems like violent crime go unmentioned in the many billboards here extolling the Chávez family's ascendancy.

"This is what anarchy looks like, at least the type of anarchy where the family of Chávez accumulates wealth and power as the rest of us fear for our lives," said Ángel Santamaría, 57, a cattleman in the town of Nueva Bolivia whose son, Kusto, 8, was kidnapped while walking to school in May. He was held for 29 days, until Mr. Santamaría gathered a small ransom to free him.

The governor of Barinas, Adán Chávez, the president's eldest brother and a former ambassador to Cuba, said this month that many of the kidnappings might have been a result of destabilization efforts by the opposition or so-called self-kidnappings: orchestrated abductions to reveal weaknesses among security forces, or to extort money from one's own family.

"With each day that passes," the governor said recently, "Barinas is safer than before."

Through a spokeswoman, he declined to be interviewed.

In an election last year marred by accusations of fraud, Adán Chávez succeeded his own father, Hugo de los Reyes Chávez, a former schoolteacher who had governed Barinas for a decade with the president's brother, Argenis, the former secretary of state in Barinas.

Another brother, Aníbal, is mayor of nearby Sabaneta, and another brother, Adelis, is a top banker at Banco Sofitasa, which does business with Adán's government. Yet another brother, Narciso, was put in charge of cooperation projects with Cuba. The president's cousin Asdrúbal holds a top post at the national oil company.

Politicians once loyal to the president who have broken with him and his family here contend that Mr. Chávez's family has amassed wealth and landholdings through a series of deals carried out by front men.

One opposition leader, Wilmer Azuaje, detailed to prosecutors and legislators what he said was more than $20 million in illegal gains by the family since the president's father was elected governor in 1998. But in a brief review of those claims, National Assembly, under the control of Chávez loyalists, cleared the family of charges of illicit enrichment.

"In the meantime, while the family wraps itself in the rhetoric of socialism, we are descending into a neo-capitalist chaos where all that matters is money," said Alberto Santelíz, the publisher of La Prensa, a small opposition newspaper.

One reason for the rise in kidnappings is the injection of oil money into the local economy, with some families reaping quick fortunes because of ties to large infrastructure projects.

A new soccer stadium, built under the supervision of Adelis Chávez's at a cost of more than $50 million, is still unfinished two years after its first game in 2007, joining other white elephants dotting Barinas's landscape. Nearby lies the unfinished Museum of the Plains, intended to celebrate the culture of the president's birthplace. A sprawling shopping mall stands half-completed after its backers fled a shakedown by construction unions.

More than a decade into the Chávez family's rule in Barinas, the state remains Venezuela's poorest, with average monthly household income of about $800, according to the National Statistics Institute. Kidnapping, once feared only by the wealthy, has spread in Barinas to include the poor. In one case this year of a 3-year-old girl kidnapped in the slum of Mi Jardín, the abductor, when told that the only thing of value owned by the girl's mother was a refrigerator, instructed her to sell it to pay the ransom.

Kidnapping specialists here said the abductors were drawn from two Colombian rebel groups, a small Venezuelan guerrilla faction called the Bolivarian Liberation Front, other criminal gangs and corrupt police officers. Just a fraction of the kidnappings result in prison sentences.

"With impunity rampant in Barinas, how can our governor say with a straight face that people are kidnapping themselves?" asked Lucy Montoya, 38, a hardware store owner whose sister, Doris, a 41-year-old mother of three, was kidnapped in March.

Doris Montoya's abductors have not freed her or communicated with her family since receiving ransom money in May, Lucy Montoya said, adding, "The government's handling of this crisis is an affront to our dignity as human beings."

Meanwhile, new figures show kidnappings climbing to 454 known cases in the first six months of 2009, including about 66 in Barinas, compared with a nationwide 2008 estimate of between 537 and 612. But officials acknowledge that the true figures are probably higher because many cases are never reported.

Here in Barinas, victims seethe over the inaction of the president and his family. "Our ruling dynasty is effectively telling us we are expendable," said Rodolfo Peńa, 38, a businessman who was abducted here last year. "The only other plausible theory," he said, "is that they are too inebriated by power to notice the emergency at their feet."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 18 August 12:24 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.