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BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza

beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 09:22 AM
Ebbie 13 Feb 13 - 11:04 AM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 11:08 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 11:12 AM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM
Ebbie 13 Feb 13 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 11:46 AM
Stilly River Sage 13 Feb 13 - 11:52 AM
bobad 13 Feb 13 - 11:58 AM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM
selby 13 Feb 13 - 12:31 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 01:15 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 01:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 13 - 01:26 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 01:26 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 01:52 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM
Ebbie 13 Feb 13 - 02:06 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 02:14 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 02:25 PM
Ebbie 13 Feb 13 - 02:31 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Feb 13 - 02:35 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 02:37 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 13 - 02:50 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 13 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 03:03 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 03:05 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 03:48 PM
beardedbruce 13 Feb 13 - 03:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 05:16 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 13 - 05:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 05:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 13 - 05:42 PM
Ed T 13 Feb 13 - 05:49 PM
Greg F. 13 Feb 13 - 06:00 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Feb 13 - 06:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 13 - 07:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Feb 13 - 07:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 13 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 04:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM
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Subject: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 09:22 AM

GAZA (Reuters) - Egyptian forces have flooded smuggling tunnels under the border with the Palestinian-ruled Gaza Strip in a campaign to shut them down, Egyptian and Palestinian officials said.
The network of tunnels is a vital lifeline for Gaza, bringing in an estimated 30 percent of all goods that reach the enclave and circumventing a blockade imposed by Israel for more than seven years.
Reuters reporters saw one tunnel being used to bring in cement and gravel suddenly fill with water on Sunday, sending workers rushing for safety. Locals said two other tunnels were likewise flooded, with Egyptians deliberately pumping in water.
"The Egyptians have opened the water to drown the tunnels," said Abu Ghassan, who supervises the work of 30 men at one tunnel some 200 meters (yards) from the border fence.
An Egyptian security official in the Sinai told Reuters the campaign started five days ago.
"We are using water to close the tunnels by raising water from one of the wells," he said, declining to be named.
Dozens of tunnels had been destroyed since last August following the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in a militant attack near the Gaza fence.

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-floods-gaza-tunnels-cut-palestinian-lifeline-123746900.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:04 AM

How do you feel about this, bb?


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:08 AM

"Dozens of tunnels had been destroyed since last August following the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in a militant attack near the Gaza fence."


IMO it is a reasonable thing for the Egyptians to do.

More to the point, How do YOU ( and others here) feel about this? Do the Egyptians have the right to defend themselves by closing the tunnels?


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:10 AM

How is closing the tunnels "defending themselves"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:12 AM

How is allowing the tunnels as means of access to Egypt defending themselves, Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:19 AM

Steve,

If someone enters your home and kills members of your family, you think it is wrong to lock the door to make it more difficult for them to get in???


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:33 AM

Egypt has its own malcontents, dissidents and nutjobs, all of whom were, and still are, very active following the change of regime.

The Egyptians' claim that Palestinians were responsible is both unconfirmed and hotly denied by Hamas, but of course all the anti Gaza brigade will take Satan's word over that of Hamas

Just another escalation of pressure on the Gaza strip. Israel will be pleased!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:39 AM

As Don T said, the Palestinians deny that they had entered upon Egyptian soil in that incident. On the other hand, if Egypt entered Palestine through a tunnel and 14 soldiers were killed...

The whole thing stinks. There doesn't seem to be a lasting solution anywhere. For anybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:46 AM

It is catastrophic that Egypt should close the tunnels, an act which lays the Palestinian people wide open to the Israeli blockade designed to starve and humiliate the Palestinian people into submitting to its expansionist aims.
Hamas has disowned the attack, which the Jerusalem Post links to Al Qaeda, so any claim that the Palestinians are in any way implicated is, to say the least, premature.
We managed to establish Israel's claim to fame as a terrorist state on the other thread, from which you did a quick runner - I wonder if we'll have any better luck here in asking how blocking essential supplies from a besieged people can possibly be described as protecting your home from somebody who "kills members of your family" - won't hold my breath though!
No doubt there are those among us who will take comfort from tightening the screws even further on an already extremely persecuted Palestinian people, an act that will open the door even wider to Israeli expansionism.
Maybe the protests that are taking place in Egypt at present will produce a government more susceptible protecting the Middle East from terrorist states!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:52 AM

BB said:

More to the point, How do YOU ( and others here) feel about this? Do the Egyptians have the right to defend themselves by closing the tunnels?

What BeardedBruce wants is for you to fall all over yourselves arguing with him and his strident anti-Palestine position. That's why he started the thread.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: bobad
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:58 AM

"extremely persecuted Palestinian people"

The "Palestinian" people of Gaza are definitely being persecuted by Hamas, see: Gaza Gags Civil Liberties. Perhaps they can petition the Israelis to liberate them from their oppressors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:12 PM

And THIS is what Silly Rubber Stooge is in favor of:

GAZA CITY, Feb 12 2013 (IPS) - Gaza is becoming increasingly radicalised as Hamas continues its crackdown on civil liberties, press freedom and the rights of women. In the last few weeks a number of journalists have been arrested and accused of being involved in "suspicious activities", several detainees shot dead by police during arrest attempts, and female students asked to abide by a strict Islamic dress code.

"Hamas is on a gradual track of the Islamisation of Gazan society, which goes against their early promises," Dr Samir Awad from Birzeit University near Ramallah tells IPS. "Most people in Gaza, even the most conservative, oppose this. Gazans are already very conservative and they don't need Hamas dictating their religion to them."

Women have borne the brunt of the crackdown. Gaza's Al Aqsa University has announced that female students will be required to wear full traditional Muslim garb, from head to toe.

Some female students have expressed outrage, claiming that the new demands are in violation of their public freedom. They say that already female students are modestly dressed but that some prefer wearing pants and a long overcoat rather than a burka, abaya or hijab.

In the past, Hamas has banned women from riding on the backs of motorbikes, from smoking water pipes, and men from working in female hair salons – saying such practices were immodest. Not all bans, however, have been imposed uniformly.

"Hamas has also banned mixed parties and mixed activities as well as enforcing other restrictions on women but not on men. Gaza's entire seashore has practically been confiscated by Hamas as if it is their private property and they decide who can access the area and when," Awad tells IPS.

The dress code decision has also further undermined the latest unity efforts between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority (PA)-affiliated Fatah movement.

PA Minister for Higher Education Ali Jarbawi stresses that Hamas's decision is illegal and cannot be implemented. He wrote an official letter to Al Aqsa's president stating the illegality of the move which he said also violated Palestinian government decisions.

Dr. Faiq al-Naouk, advisor for managerial affairs at Al-Aqsa University responded saying that the controversial decision would be implemented only gradually as an act of "goodwill" before it becomes mandatory.

"Hamas's increasing radicalisation is one of the sticking points for Fatah and Hamas being able to form a unity government," says Awad.

Hamas has cracked down on other civil liberties too in the past few weeks. 'New Star', the annual Palestinian version of 'American Idol', was recently banned by the Islamist group on the grounds that it was "indecent" and violated conservative interpretations of Islam.

Producer Alaa Al Abed lashed out at the decision, of which he was only informed at the last moment, saying the ban prevented Gaza's 12 contestants from competing in the second round of the competition.

"This is more serious than Hamas just killing fun in Gaza – they are limiting the freedoms of the people, according to their whims," al-Abed says.

Teenage girls and women can only rarely be seen singing in public, but men are encouraged to sing, without musical instruments, about the glory of Islam and fighting Israel.

Journalists are also facing censure. Hamas has carried out a wave of arrests of Palestinian journalists in the coastal territory, accusing them of being involved in "suspicious activities". Palestinian human rights groups say internal security services in the Gaza Strip have stepped up harassment of journalists in the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) distributed a list of media workers it said had been arrested, and condemned the seemingly coordinated campaign, which Hamas officials deny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: selby
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:31 PM

Seems to me that the Palestinians are the worlds whipping boys. The UN appears to do nothing to support them, the Arab League appear to do nothing to support them.
Who is afraid of upsetting who, I am sure the Palestinians are looking for leadership and support but NO ONE seems to want to help.
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — A Palestinian rights group says Gaza's Hamas rulers have detained six journalists suspected of affiliation to a rival group, Fatah.
The Palestinian Center for Human Rights said Wednesday that Hamas security forces seized the men and their equipment over the past two days.
The group said the detentions were part of a wider arrest sweep this week of two dozen suspected Fatah loyalists.
Hamas expelled Fatah members in 2007 and took control of Gaza. Fatah is headed by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.
The arrests could undermine reconciliation efforts between Hamas and Fatah. While both groups routinely crack down on rivals, it's unusual for six reporters to be picked up in one sweep.
Gaza's Interior Ministry the arrested men were suspected of sabotaging "communal peace."


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/02/12-5


and...


Hamas is once again trying to punish the residents of Gaza by attempting to reduce the scope of Israeli goods entering the region.

Hamas' Ministry of Economics announced this week its decision to ban the import of certain types of goods into Gaza through the Israeli crossings. These include office furniture, various types of foods, hygiene products, gas pipes, plastic, plastic bags and clothing.

The local population in Gaza expressed its dissatisfaction with the decision, especially since the Israeli products that enter Gaza are considered to be of much higher quality than the goods that are smuggled into Gaza from Egypt, through the tunnels in the Rafiah area.

The Coordinator of Government Activities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (COGAT) noted that this is part of an ongoing Hamas policy, which seeks to reduce imports from Israel and other external markets without analyzing the serious impact such decisions would have on the public and the population in Gaza.

Nevertheless, COGAT noted, on Wednesday 218 truckloads containing a variety of goods and 175 tons of gas were delivered into Gaza.

The trucks were delivered through the Kerem Shalom Crossing under the coordination of the Coordination and Liaison Administration in Gaza.

In addition, noted COGAT, 301 tons of strawberries, and 52,000 flowers units were exported from Gaza this week. The export was coordinated by the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration through the Kerem Shalom crossing.

Israel continuously allows humanitarian aid into Gaza, despite Hamas's claims that there is a "siege" on the region. Israeli has approved internationally funded and monitored projects in Gaza. Since 2011, 235 projects have been approved. In September 2012 alone, 16 new projects were approved.

Israel has also supported the private sector in Gaza, and has approved the transfer of raw materials for private sector construction, including roof tiles, building stones, dry wall, mosaics, adhesives, plaster, etc.

In addition to all of the above, the communication channels between Israel and the PA's Ministry of Health have been maintained in recent years, despite Hamas' violent takeover of Gaza in 2007. As part of this communication Israeli doctors have more than once helped save the lives of PA Arabs from Gaza who came to receive treatment in Israeli hospitals.

Angry at the PA-Israel cooperation, Hamas has prevented the transfer of Gaza patients to hospitals in Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:15 PM

I take it that, once again we're not going to get our questions answered as to why the Palestinian people should be punished for a crime committed by an extremist terrorist group - didn't think so really!!
Pointing at other acts of persecution - real or invented - in no way excuses Israeli terrorism, massacres, et al - if that were acceptable any mass murderer could simply point to Nazi Germany and claim as justification that at least they were not "as bad as them".
So far, the only ones supporting terrorism and persecution are Brucie and his merry men - no doubt this support will run longer than 'The Mousetrap'.
"Israel continuously allows humanitarian aid into Gaza"
Israel has detained medical supplies to Palestine long enough to cause deaths through lack of treatment, equipment and medicine.
Their blockade has caused widespread malnutrition among Palestinian Children.
It has also caused widespread poverty among the population by blocking farmers from their land with a Berlin-type wall and forbidding the import of essential tools and pesticides.... and the beat goes on.
Such claims of Israeli leniency totally distort the effects of this blockade and are tantamount to war crimes which they would have long ago been charged with if it wasn't for America's use of the veto.
Supporting those war crimes is a support for state terrorism aimed directly at the poorest members of an already impoverished third world people.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:18 PM

What Jim said.

Although any theocracy is bad for people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:26 PM

It is precisely those states which are oppressed by outsiders which tend to become theocracies, possibly because that produces support from other states which share the religion.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:26 PM

I have stated what EGYPT and what HAMAS have done- and hear all about how evil ISRAEL is.


It seems to me that the bigots here are trying to ignore the OP- EGYPT IS NOT ISRAEL.

But Jim et al seem to be certain it is always Israel's fault- ...

You trot out the same tired platitudinous repetition of your standard mantra, "Israel must always be criticised because they are always wrong"

See, Don? WE DO LISTEN TO YOUR COMMENTS.

Too bad you can't apply the same standards to your own posts that you want others to use.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:44 PM

"Although any theocracy is bad for people."
What Richard said.
"I have stated what EGYPT and what HAMAS have done- and hear all about how evil ISRAEL is."
Using your own arguments - you opened this thread ostensibly to discuss the closure of the tunnels and you went on to suggest that the Palestinians were responsible for the killing of the Egyptian policemen, which led to this.
You squealed loud enough at what you claimed "thread drift" on the thread you departed in haste from having cake and eating it maybe.
Inhuman acts by one group do not excuse similar actions by others
So far, you and your buddies are the only ones defending atrocities.
"But Jim et al seem to be certain it is always Israel's fault- ..."
Perhaps you might like to open a thread on the lengths Israel is prepared to go in order to expand its borders - no?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:52 PM

PS So far it is Israel, not Palestine who has been defended from charges of atrocities and war crimes by a UN veto - maybe there's something to the suggestion that they aren't the sweetness and light state you would have us believe - especially as the State came into being to the sound of villagers being massacred by having grenades thrown into their homes - hardly a promising start.
My family were avid supporters of the new Israeli State; my father went to Spain when he learned what was happening to the Jews in Germany.
He would have been horrified to see what Israel has now become.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:57 PM

Inhuman acts by one group do not excuse similar actions by others


Yet you keep bringing up Israel, and refuse to comment on either Egypt OR Hamas. WHY DO YOU EXCUSE THEM???????? Your bring up Israel in the thread between Egypt and Hamas is proof that you are doing just what you said we should not do-

"Inhuman acts by one group do not excuse similar actions by others"



Sounds like a bigot to me, applying one set of rules to those you dislike, and a different rule to others- your father would be ashamed of what YOU have become.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:06 PM

BBruce, your attack on Stilly River Sage was uncalled for. She believes that you started this thread in order to get an endless and pointless argument going. I suspect that in your rational moments you would not deny that assertion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:14 PM

I suspect that SRS only commented in order to attack me. She had nothing to contribute to the discussion.- YET YOU ARE OK WITH THAT.

I suspect in YOUR rational moments you will acknowledge that you allow those you agree with to have free reign, and only call out those you disagree with.

SRS and I go back to when she stated that she would not accept any information as valid that she did not a priori agree with. I pointed out that this was not the attitude of en educated person. I still believe it is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:25 PM

What SRS, DonT, and Jim want you to do is attack me as the poster, and ignore the thread, since it does not allow them to attack Israel.

SRS has made it a pattern to attack those PEOPLE who disagree with her, and NOT address the facts brought up. Don T and others seem to be doing the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:31 PM

That may be, - I don't know - BBruce, but I don't recall any instance in which YOU cited someone *approvingly* when it was a person with whom YOU don't generally agree. If I am mistaken I would appreciate your pointing me to such an example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:35 PM

Don'r have a dog in this fight, but it did occur to me, on reading the earlier post that stated 30% of goods arrive in Gaza via the tunnels. I imagine that 100% of the arms an explosives arrive by that route too.
As, much of the Israeli aggression is in reaction to Hamas aggression, perhaps there will be less exchanges of HE now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:37 PM

I did not ask for their approval- but when they attack me ( rather than discuss the facts posted) and post ONLY to attack me, I will treat them just like I would a rabid dog- since that is what they prove themselves to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:50 PM

As, much of the Israeli aggression is in reaction to Hamas aggression, perhaps there will be less exchanges of HE now.

A very questionable assertion, I think. First, depends what you mean by aggression. If stealing land, dividing families, wrecking infrastructure and bulldozing civilian homes counts as aggression (it does in my book), then very little of that is response to Hamas aggression. Of course, it's possible in war-speak to massage the meaning of aggression in Israel's favour. That goes with the territory. Second, depends what you mean by response. If you mean tit-for-tat, well maybe. If you mean routinely killing around a hundred times as many of them as they kill of yours, well let's finesse the definition slightly. Finally, if you consider the middle east conflicts since WW2, I think you'll find that Israel was the initial aggressor in the majority of cases. In fact, apart from the US, Israel is quite possibly the most bellicose nation on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:52 PM

Sorry, I meant reaction as you stated, not response, though it amounts to the same thing I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM

"What SRS, DonT, and Jim want you to do is attack me as the poster"
No we don't Bruce - we have all responded to the subject of your thread; it is you who has deliberately avoided the fact that the Palestinians have not, nor have they been accused of taking part in the killing of the Egyptian policemen; it is you who has suggested that they pose a threat to Egypt (and then, of course, you refuse to qualify that suggestion).
It little becomes someone who did a runner from a thread rather than comment on the fact that Israel facilitated and probably participated in the massacre of 3,000 unarmed refugees, to accuse us of avoiding the issue.
Neither I, Don nor SRS have ever in any way given our support to terrorism in any shape or form. You on the the other hand, appeared to accept that Israel was a State which carried out terrorist acts on the other thread, (want me to produce your pre-flight statement?) yet still you give her your unqualified support.
As with another of your terrorist apologists, you accuse us of personal attacks - we are responding to what you write, not what you appear to be - can you claim to be doing the same?
Why do I excuse Egypt and Hamas - I don't - show me where I have ever done so.
Do a deal with you - tell me what you think of Israel's undisputed part in the Sabra/Shatila massacres and I'll tell you what I think of Egypt and Hamas (though I have made my attitude clear on Hamas over and over again on threads we have both been involved in).
After you - I asked first - at least a week ago!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:03 PM

If stealing land, dividing families, wrecking infrastructure and bulldozing civilian homes counts as aggression (it does in my book), then very little of that is response to Hamas aggression.

None of that happens to the Gazans Richard, so John has made a valid point.
There is still the legal crossing between Egypt an Gaza remember.

Who did kill those Egyptians.
Not Israelis, they killed the killers when they made an incursion into Israel.
Does anyone condemn Israel for that?

The world and his dog knows that they were Islamists sponsored by Iran, just like Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:04 PM

Missed a bit
John Mc
"Hamas aggression"
We've settled this bit long ago - Israel attempted to control and manipulate the Palestinian economy 20 years before the Hamas bombardment - the present state of affairs is due entirely to Israel's persistent and extremely aggressive expansionist policy.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:05 PM

Oh no!
Jim wants to make this another thread about a 30 year old massacre of Arabs by Arabs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:48 PM

Piss off Keith - you'll be telling BB that he can't hide behind the Holocaust next - can you tell us exactly how long the massacre of 3,000 unarmed refugees is before it no longer counts as a valid atrocity; perhaps I can pass it on to the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
"Who did kill those Egyptians"
Possibly Al Qaeda according to the Jerusalem Post - why do you ask?
Speaking of Bruce:
"I will treat them just like I would a rabid dog- since that is what they prove themselves to be."
A word of advice Brucie - your arguments might just come over a tad more effectively if they weren't couched in language that gives the impression that you are addressing a Nuremberg Rally.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:55 PM

Speaking of massacres, have you found the figures on how many Palestinians were killed by Palestinians over the last 10 years? Vs the number killed by Israelis, who they are at war with ( NO PEACE TREATY EXISTS)?


Jimmie, your arguments might mean something if they addressed the topic of the thread. EGYPT and HAMAS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:03 PM

Jim, the massacre was in Lebanon, many hundreds of miles from the Gaza/Egypt border, and over 30 years ago.
Please explain its relevance to this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:16 PM

"how many Palestinians were killed by Palestinians"
I didn't think for one minute you would accept my challenge.
It was you who suggested that the closing of the tunnels was that the Palestinians were a threat to Egypt - not the case.
Jim, the massacre was in Lebanon.
The massacre was facilitated by the Israeli terrorist state - it could not have happened with out their full co-operation.
If you continue to interfere with what I choose to post an hoe I choose to post it I will take the appropriate action to stop you
How many times do you have to be told you have no authority to interfere with other peoiple's posts
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:17 PM

There - more typos for you to crawl behind
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:29 PM

Take the "appropriate action" Jim, because I will not stop highlighting your deranged obsession with utterly irrelevant issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:42 PM

Sorry Jim.
Take no notice of me.
This is just an exchange between no-nothing old folkies on an irrelevant internet forum.

I am worried for you.
Take a break, listen to some good music, and come back tomorrow.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:49 PM

""Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza""

It could be seen as an escalation of pressure on the Gaza strip.

But, alternatively, could it not reduce a big reason (excuse) that Israel has used to justify isolation-agression against Gaza? That could increase international pressure on Israel to open up it's borders to allow access for provisions for the citizens?

What's your views on that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:00 PM

BBruce, but I don't recall any instance in which YOU cited someone *approvingly* when it was a person with whom YOU don't generally agree. If I am mistaken I would appreciate your pointing me to such an example.

Don't hold your breath for that citation, Ebbie - This is just the usual Beardie Blather, paranoia, name-calling and hubris in operation.

Why folks attempt to interact reasonably with him is a mystery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:45 PM

Keith, take a reality pill.

"f stealing land, dividing families, wrecking infrastructure and bulldozing civilian homes counts as aggression (it does in my book), then very little of that is response to Hamas aggression.

None of that happens to the Gazans Richard,"

I said no such thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:36 PM

""Too bad you can't apply the same standards to your own posts that you want others to use.""

The major difference is that I also criticise Hamas for what they do wrong, unlike yourself and Keith who ONLY criticise Hamas, in spite of the fact that Gaza is beseiged by Israel and forced to accept what Israel chooses to allow.

You would decry any other country which isolated a neighbour in this fashion, and you call us biased.

You constantly claim that we demand different standards from Israel, while upholding their right to establish different standards for themselves, in direct defiance of both the United Nations and the International Criminal Court, so who are the bigots?

As for Egypt, I should have thought the fact that I did not believe their reasons for flooding the tunnels would show that I don't single out Israel alone.

Mind you, a cynical man might wonder if the death of those sixteen Egyptians was designed to tighten Israel's grip on Gaza and the Left Bank, and consequently who the killers really might have been.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:55 PM

""But, alternatively, could it not reduce a big reason (excuse) that Israel has used to justify isolation-agression against Gaza? That could increase international pressure on Israel to open up it's borders to allow access for provisions for the citizens?""

What international pressure Ed? The only pressure applied to Israel, by the UN, is routinely vetoed by the United States of America, with somewhat disgusting support from the successive governments of my own country.

Anything that Israel does, no matter how vile, is overlooked by those with guilt feelings about the treatment of Jews in WW2, despite the fact that the miscreants are not the ordinary Jewish citizens of Israel, but rather the vicious Zionist fanatics who control Israel's government and seem to feel justified in getting their own back for that treatment by bashing their neighbours, who had nothing to do with it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:51 AM

From Wiki.

The (Egyptian)army said that "elements" in the Gaza Strip helped the perpetrators by firing mortars during the attack.[15] The daily al-Youm al-Saba'a quoted a senior Egyptian security official, who said that Islamic Jihad militants from Gaza and global jihad (Jihad al-Alami) fighters from Egypt perpetrated the attack.[16] CNN cited anonymous 'Egyptian general' who said the Hamas breakaway group 'Al-Galgala Army' is behind the border attack .[43] The MENA news agency said that the attackers were jihadists who had "infiltrated from Gaza through tunnels," and had collaborated with "jihadist elements."[15]
The Muslim Brotherhood released a statement calling on the government to "confront this serious challenge to the Egyptian sovereignty" as well as to "protect Sinai from all armed groups."[44] The party also claimed on its website that the attack "can be attributed to the Mossad", Israel's intelligence service, in an effort to destabilize the government, which the Israeli foreign ministry denied as "nonsense."[45]

On 7 August, at a funeral for the soldiers who were killed, Prime Minister Hesham Qandil was assaulted and attacked by angry mourners, who also vandalized his car. In addition, Kandil was pelted with shoes, while some angry mourners chanted, "The Brotherhood and Hamas are one dirty hand."[47]


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:55 AM

"utterly irrelevant issues."
A last word on attempts to censor this forum and then an end.
Despite Bruce's claims to the contrary, the subject of this thread is not "Hamas".
Hamas has not been implicated in these killings, the suggestion has been made that Al Qaeda was responsible - I read it on the Jerusalem Post' site. It is as likely that Mossad engineered the killings, they have far more to gain than do Hamas (not making this as a serious suggestion, just pointing out that it is the suggestion of you pair that Hamas was in any way involved.
So using your own logic, to bring them into the discussion is 'thread drift'.
On the other hand, should the blocking of the tunnels bring about an end to the Palestinian siege in Israel's favour it is quite likely that the population of Gaza will become refugees, and we all (or most of us) are aware of Israel's reputation regarding the treatment of civilians, refugees in particular.
Israel's persistent attempts to illegally annex Palestinian land and dominate its economy and way of life, and the lengths they are prepared to go to in order to do so lies at the heart of all these discussions and will inevitably be raised whenever the subject comes up.
Both Keith and Bruce have used 'thread drift' to take these discussions wherever they choose, yet it is they who constantly make it as an accusation to prevent discussions from exposing 'awkward' facts - they attempt to manipulate threads to their own ends.
These threads will go wherever people choose to take them - as Keith once said after he had persistently complained about thread drifts and then had then drifted way off topic "thread drifts happen' (I think it was when he was defending the use of chemical weapons on civilians).
Both Keith and Bruce have reputations of championing 'extreme' extremist causes and constantly use this forum to promote their views - censorship is one of the greatest weapons of extremism.
Attempts to manipulate threads in favour of any particular point of view and away from awkward facts is censorship in the extreme and goes against the much appreciated (by some of us) democratic nature of this forum SO STOP DOING IT - NOW - it is every contributor to this thread who will decide what is relevant and irrelevant, not a pair of extremists!

The end - I hope!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 04:16 AM

Hamas has not been implicated in these killings

Yes they have.
Read the Wiki piece I just posted.
That is why Egypt is blocking the tunnels.

(The rest of your post is complete bollocks too)


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Subject: RE: BS: Egypt shuts down tunnels to Gaza
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 04:38 AM

Jerualem Post today.
Dozens of tunnels had been destroyed since last August following the killing of 16 Egyptian soldiers in a militant attack near the Gaza fence.

Cairo said some of the gunmen had crossed into Egypt via the tunnels - a charge denied by Palestinians - and ordered an immediate crackdown.

The move surprised and angered Gaza's rulers, the Islamist group Hamas, which had hoped for much better ties with Cairo following the election last year of Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi, an Islamist who is ideologically close to Hamas.


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