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BS: Muslim men and white girls - again

Jeri 31 Jan 13 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 13 - 06:30 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 13 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 13 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 13 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Jan 13 - 04:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 13 - 04:34 AM
Richard Bridge 31 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 31 Jan 13 - 04:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 13 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 31 Jan 13 - 01:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Jan 13 - 01:52 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 30 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 13 - 05:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 13 - 05:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 13 - 05:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 13 - 05:30 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Jan 13 - 04:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 13 - 04:54 PM
Greg F. 30 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 30 Jan 13 - 03:25 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 13 - 03:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 13 - 02:45 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Jan 13 - 01:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 13 - 12:58 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 13 - 12:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jan 13 - 11:22 AM
Richard Bridge 30 Jan 13 - 09:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 13 - 09:35 AM
Greg F. 30 Jan 13 - 09:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 13 - 09:06 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 30 Jan 13 - 08:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 13 - 08:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Jan 13 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 13 - 07:26 AM
akenaton 30 Jan 13 - 07:26 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 30 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 13 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 13 - 05:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jan 13 - 04:06 AM
Richard Bridge 30 Jan 13 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jan 13 - 02:55 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 30 Jan 13 - 01:25 AM
Brian May 29 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 29 Jan 13 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Jan 13 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jan 13 - 08:53 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:36 AM

Oh, GET A ROOM!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:30 AM

There is no proof as to why they do it.
I tend to believe that all those folk were on to something, but I have no opinion.
I have been telling you that for 2 years.
It is not "exactly what you have said throughout"

What I said throughout was that there was an over-representation.
That the numbers are disproportionate.
They are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:00 AM

Let's be clear about this
These people are criminals; they are tried by the courts as criminals and those trying them have made it clear that there are no racial or cultural implications in their criminality.
They are tried by the press as Muslims, otr at best, as Muslim criminals - that is where most of us get our information about these crimes, including members of the ethnic communities. You have to dig under all the shit to find the real facts
You have consistently accused these communities of being culturally depraved with its members having to resist "cultural implants" (a summing up of exactly what you have said throughout)
Anybody making such statements are obliged to provide proof - you have provided none, neither has the sewer press, most of you claims echo sewer press vomit.
Produce proof and have the bottle to stand by what you say.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:56 AM

Jim, that was the first pm I ever sent you.
I sent the next on 22nd November, 4 months later.
Was that the one?
Shall I post it for all to see?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM

No Keith - there was a dozen of them - I even contacted the administrator to find out if I could stop you posting them - you're lying again.
"I only stated what I believed because Don asked me."
Oh - for ***** sake it was because Jack Straw told you it was true last time - make up your mind
Doesn't matter anyway - you said it, take responsibility for it.
"Because a disproportionate number of them are British Pakistani"
Wonder if he carried out a national survey and forgor to post the results
Desperately racist to the last eh?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:27 AM

Jim, that was the only pm I sent you during or soon after that thread.
You must be thinking of someone else.

How can it be racist to believe what people of a community say about their own community.
They did attribute the behaviour to aspects of culture, misogyny, unhappy arranged marriages, lack of any courtship, etc.

Anyway, as I said, I did not and do not care about why they do it.
I only stated what I believed because Don asked me.

"Because a disproportionate number of them are British Pakistani – just like me."

So, that's cleared up then.
Good.
Have a good trip Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:59 AM

`"not being a racist I do not make racist posts."
To make a statement like:
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."
is racist, pure (if that's the word) and simple
Not only did you write it, but it is a concept invented by you. It is crude racism at its worst, racist invective aimed at an entire ethnic community, racially inflammatory and designed to generate hatred and fear. As far as I am concerned it is equivalent to pouring petrol through the letterbox of every Pakistani home in Britain.
The claim that you only said it only because somebody else told you it is true is moronic and does not in any way make you any less a racist, but the fact that you have refused to supply one single quote that comes anywhere near that horrific suggestion makes it your invention and yours alone.
Have the courage to stand by you
If there is one person here can show that such a smear on an entire ethnic community is not racist, please do
Am not sure of the point of your cut-'n-paste, which rather makes my point for me, are we to assume that the Muslim quoted managed to resist his "cultural implant"?
And no – I don't mean that PM – you are being as selective with your selection as you are about all your "evidence". I was referring to the dozen rants about Muslim culture, especially the one which ended "culture is all".
Am off to the other side of the country for what I trust will be a pleasant few days of song and music; will look them up when I get back.
Jim Carroll
PS I did enjoy that flag waving rant from our mysterious guest – now where have I encountered that writing style before I wonder?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:34 AM

That is a nasty lie against me Richard.
I always acknowledged that only "a tiny minority" were involved.
I was the first on the first thread to point out that the victims were not all white (or sluts!).

All I ever claimed was that a disproportionate number of offenders were British Pakistanis.
The debate only dragged on because Jim and Don T kept denying it and saying it was racist to even suggest that.

This reporter is no racist.
She is a British Pakistani investigative journalist who has invested a large proportion of her whole career investigating this crime.
There are no stats. but she knows.

I spoke nothing but the truth.
A truth that was obvious to anyone not blinded by stupid political dogma, and all the vile abuse Jim has heaped on me these last two years was completely undeserved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM

Which accordingly Keith undermines your plainly racist agenda - the one in which you and a few others repeatedly draw attention to crimes committed or alleged to be committed by British Pakistanis - against "white girls" (spot the dogwhistle, it's quite loud) so as to imply that that is a trait of British Pakistanis or even all Muslims, or all from the Indian subcontinent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 04:13 AM

Keith the day you have nothing more to contribute....well I'll be very sorry.

Why abbreviate..... I think common sense tells you they are not one big homogenous group - they encompass all kinds of people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 03:18 AM

Guardian September 2012.
This crime does have one very significant factor that has left me feeling deeply ashamed. The brutality and horror of these acts have nothing to do with me; they are as far removed from my life as the next person's. Yet I somehow feel responsible when I look at the names or faces of the perpetrators.

Why? Because a disproportionate number of them are British Pakistani – just like me. We speak the same language, have the same culture and home life and were probably raised with similar values. Yet somewhere along the way, something went very wrong.

This very thought ran through my head when I met two men in Sheffield who claimed to know gangs who groomed girls. They spoke casually about the kudos, easy sex and money that follows the gross exploitation of young girls. It was shocking and nauseating.

It's important to stress at this juncture that the vast majority of sexual crimes against children in the UK are committed by white men and that this type of grooming is only a small percentage of those crimes. Of the 1.2 million Pakistanis in Britain only a tiny minority has any connection with such deplorable acts of sexual violence. I'm writing this carefully because I want it to be read carefully. These men may be British-Pakistani but that does not mean that this is a crime specific to British-Pakistani men.

It was heartening to meet some young Pakistani men in Keighley who felt the same way as I did. They were keen that I make it clear that they, along with the vast majority of British Pakistanis, utterly condemned the evil acts being perpetrated against young girls. "This is not what we are," one told me. "Our values as British and Muslim people condemn this altogether."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/30/abuse-children-asian-communities


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:58 AM

Bum slapper? That one passed me by Al. Is it in the Carry On tradition or am I being naive again? On a serious note as you mention your time in Nottinghamshire I noticed on ghe news a Muslim family in Bingham (about as posh as you can get in East Midlands) have left to a safe address. The latest was a 13 year old tying a pig carcass to a cross and putting it in their front garden. Nice.

Mind you I must be naive. Never mind knew there was this movement called women nor indeed their need to have men to help them achieve some aims or other.

I suppose that's the problem when you try to promote equality, you don't manage to make special cases. I must try to improve.   We can't have Liz passing accurate judgement on me can we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:52 AM

Al I have nothing else to contribute but just in case, can you suggest an acceptable abbreviation?

Dave, of course Jim has not produced any statistics.
They are not available.
Back in 2011 there were some high powered investigations but none were able to to give a conclusive answer to your question.

There are no statistics on crime and ethnicity.
Ask Jim where his figure of 200 comes from and what crime it relates to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM

Keith not sure the BP abbreviation is very helpful.

Jim

A few years back I was supply teaching in Nottingham, and this little guy turned up - also a supply teacher. The week before he had been teaching in Riyadh - not in the country of Pakistan, but rather in the country of a well known and trusted trading partner.

Anyway the subject was St Stephen, St Paul and stonings. This little fat feller explained to his class, what happened when someone was stoned. He had seen it happen to an adulteress the week before in Riyadh - so it was all quiye fresh in his mind - as you can imagine.

Needless to say there were complaints from kids and parents - the little fat teaceh was ne'er seen again fro that day on.

I think theres too much suppression of debate on the subject.

Poem for Lizzie

Lizzie, Liz
What is, is
To be or not to be
Alan or Al
Its still me.

By the way I have no recollection of being a bum slapper or slappee on Faceboock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:39 PM

Oh - I should have added to 'given their turn in power', and given us poor men a rest...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:35 PM

Thanks, Jim. Sorry I missed the post where you provided the statistics. I am not going to dig back through all the crap to find the gems so I am happy to take your word that you did. However, you go on to say

There is no evidence whatever to suggest that these cases are exclusively or even predominantly Muslim, yet this has been the argument throughout these squalid threads.

That is nothing like what I am saying, regardless of what the other arguments are. I am just as appalled as you if this is indeed the argument but, no matter how I look at it, I cannot turn the words round to mean that. They are NOT exclusively or even predominately Muslim. What we are seeing is an over-reporting of these crimes by members of that culture. I am trying to get proof that it IS just over reporting and as you have 'compared it with identical crimes common to all races and cultures in Britain today and throughout the world' I would be very interested to see that comparison.

Sorry to keep at it but I am moving to Yorkshire shortly and I need to train in my terrier type attributes... We know that there have been less than 200 convictions amongst the 3,000,000 Moslems in this country. How many convictions have there been in the rest of the country? If anyone can answer that then I think we can finally answer the question as to whether these crimes are higher in one section of the community than another. If so, what can be done about it.

I do apologise for probably taking your comment likening anyone taking an opposite stance to yours a 'Paki Basher' the wrong way. I am still trying to understand what you did mean but I assume that offence was not intended. I think you must have just had a rant and at that point anything can come out!

Talking of rants...

Liz, I stated that women can NOT turn this around on their own.

Why on earth not? Surely there is nothing a man can do that a woman cannot? That is the kind of attitude that can set equality back decades. What's next? White's cannot sing the blues? Men cannot be midwives? Blacks should stick to picking cotton and singing dem ol' minstrel songs?

Thank heavens there are enough women who are strong enough to realise that they don't need us and it is about time they were given their turn in power!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:31 PM

Darn!.......I hope the mutilation soon heals.

DT


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:30 PM

""Don, A mutilate friend showed me a poster or flyer of you playing at a gig in support of such a party some time back, so why the sudden change of heart as in your defensive comment ?""

And if you, anonymous troublemaker, had three working brain cells, you would have spotted the photoshopped fakery of that image stolen from an original which I can easily produce, should anybody who matters ask to see it. The fake was so obvious, that only a complete twerp would attempt to use it to score points.

By the way, give my best wishes to your friend. I hope the mutilatiopn soon heals.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:57 PM

As I said, Musket, whether you like it or not, the fact is that the vast majority of folks committing these crimes are men. Please also see my earlier comment where I said that many GOOD men will be feeling even angrier than me about this subject.

>>>"Liz Liz Liz Liz. Being a male, I of course take great pleasure in bullying zzzz"<<<<

No, that is purely because you are a Prat, not because you are a male.
And no, you do not have my permission to call me 'Liz', but yes, I'm sure you will continue to do so, and yes, this proves to me that you too are a bullying prat just like the other person a few posts back. Carry on, for you show yourselves up, not me.




With regards to the earlier remark from someone else, I stated that women can NOT turn this around on their own. I did NOT state that men should be the ONLY ones to change this.

Women can do many things, but until there are far more women in power, and let's face it that AIN'T going to happen soon in the male-dominated, religious-nutcases countries, nothing much will change for them, UNLESS, all together now, UNLESS The Men of the World come together to demand change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:54 PM

Was this the pm you meant Jim?

To Title Date Delete
Jim Carroll Good Luck. 9 Jul 2011 07:41 AM
   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
I was sorry you missed the end of the thread.
I know it was time pressure and not any lack of killer replies.
I hope your Summer School goes well.
Here's to the next time.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

I was under the impression she [ Liz ]left the site last year vowing NEVER to return.

No, you misunderstood ( or misunderestimated, in the language of George the Second ).

She vowed to leave reality, and to never look back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM

Jim and Don, not being a racist I do not make racist posts.
That is made up by you.
You do it because I disagree with you and you have no other reply.
Jim, what you say about my PMs is a calculated lie.
I have copies if you do not.

Dave, I do not have anything new.
The Independent referred to 18 court cases resulting in convictions.
There is the current Oxford case where victims have identified BPs as their abusers.
There are all those BPs arrested under police Operation Ribbon who are similarly accused.

All the victims who went to their MPs, Straw and Cryer.
All abused by BPs.
All the victims of those convicted in the 17 cases in the Dando report.
95% BPs.
All the hundreds of Sikh and Hindu girls who went to their own support groups .
All abused by BPs.
Barnados.
They said that ethnic groups were "over-represented"
They said there was an issue of "ethnicity" in high profile (many victim) cases.
All the 400 seen by Wilmer.
All stated that BPs were their abusers.
All the victims seen by Bindel.
The same.
All the victims in the German report.
All the same.
The victims who recorded their statements.
All the same.
The various serving and retired police officers who say there is a specific problem with BPs.

That is all I have to go on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:25 PM

Liz Liz Liz Liz. Being a male, I of course take great pleasure in bullying zzzz

Let's all call her Liz just to make her feel important eh? Makes a change from "what's the dozy cow waffling on about now?

I take it male includes Myra Hindley, Rose West and the "Madams" running front of house in knocking shops.

Not often that I feel offended but Liz's outrageous misogynistic stereotyping is frankly disgusting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:15 PM

"BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT COMPARING IT WITH ANYTHING ELSE."
Yes I am Dave - I have compared it with identical crimes common to all races and cultures in Britain today and throughout the world. I have provided links to those crimes and have provided an extract from and a link to a study on prostitution which describes exactly the same techniques of grooming, seduction and pimping as have been described in the cases Keith is using. There is no evidence whatever to suggest that these cases are exclusively or even predominantly Muslim, yet this has been the argument throughout these squalid threads.
"I am asking you or him to provide facts to back up your arguments"
I have shown you mine - Keith has consistently ignored all requests to provide any evidence to his claims or to refute provided evidence proving the contrary.
"I must be some sort of 'Paki basher'"
Please don't you start distorting what I have said - I've had a bellyfull of that with virtually ALL my arguments with Keith.
If you genuinely believe that was what I was implying, I apologise unreservedly - I neither said it nor do I believe it.
I do believe that suggesting that communities of 3,000,000 or 1,000,000 (depending on whether we are talking about British Muslims or Pakistanis) are culturally degenerate facilitates acts like 'Paki bashing' and other racist behaviour, but that wasn't my point. I used it (probably badly) to frame my question - 'how do you handle a degenerate culture of such proportions in your midst?'
I received no answer from Keith and am apparently not going to get one from you.
If you are you not "indulging in unresearched and unproveable generalities" why are you defending Keith's doing so?
You have had the facts as far as I see them; feel free to challenge them, correct them, even ignore them if that's what turns you on - but please do not claim that you haven't been given them - they're here and they are on the 'Muslim Prejudice' site in quantities large enough to choke a donkey.
'you are like the Socialist Worker salesman....."
I no longer hold any brief for any particular political party or organisation, but I am becoming more and more intrigued by comments like this - is it really the left (or lefty liberals, to quote Keith) who find racism, the persecution of cultural minorities or state terrorism repulsive - maybe I've been taking the wrong newspaper!
By the way; towards the end of the Muslim Prejudice thread I was treated to a (what's the collective term for PM) of PMs from Keith which made his own public postings appear liberal/lefty - must check to see if I deleted or archived them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 02:45 PM

I did not.

I didn't say you did. I was warning against doing do.

the vast majority of this particular sort of crime IS committed by those of *your* gender, not mine.

At least that is a fact, Liz. Unlike some of the other tripe on here. But it doesn't mean that just 'the men of the world' should stand up does it? Do you think women are not capable of doing something without the support of us men?

you will find that I have said that many men, the GOOD men, probably feel even more outraged than I do about this

I suppose that means I am excluded from what I believe is the majority of good men then? I admit it. I was a serial hamster rapist, giraffe strangler, Indian buggerer and farter in lifts. Although I must say I have changed my ways and become a model 1950s Father, husband, churchgoer, cottage painter and I would say lover but we don't mention things like that. That is entirely due to your opinion of me and various facebook campaigns.

I never have had a 'go' at you. Your opinions; your style. your complete disregard for other peoples feelings and your holier than thou attitude, Yes. You? No - I don't know you. Probably never will. Don't really want to. If I ever did have a go at you personaly you would know about it because it would be a damn site more than calling Liz.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:31 PM

"...and Liz, don't tar all men with the same brush or assume that these crimes are exclusively male...."


I did not.

However, whether you like it or not, the vast majority of this particular sort of crime IS committed by those of *your* gender, not mine.

Throw whatever you want at me, verbally, but that's the way it is...and it's the way it WILL remain, unless The Men Of The World stand up together to stay "ENOUGH!", for no way will Women stop this on their own, nor should they have to.

And if you look back at other posts of mine, you will find that I have said that many men, the GOOD men, probably feel even more outraged than I do about this, because of the very fact it is their gender and because they have wives, daughter, sisters, mothers....

But hey, don't let me stop you from having a go at me, as ever...

Thank you....


Oh, and please understand that your 'schoolboy humour' in continually calling me 'Liz' despite you KNOWING it upsets me, is not 'humour' at all, but a form of bullying. It would see that you have been behaving in such a bullying way since Childhood. Perhaps it is time to change...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 12:58 PM

Jim - You have just gone off on the most ridiculous rant against what I beleive to be my valid points that I have ever seen. Far from justifying Keiths behaviour I am asking you or him to provide facts to back up your argumennts. You quite rightly point out that he has not but, then again, all you have done is launch an attack suggesting that unless I support you entirely I must be some sort of 'Paki basher'.

Your minority of 200 in 3,000,000 is not worth quoting BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT COMPARING IT WITH ANYTHING ELSE. How else can I put it. If you were to say the same figure for British White Males is 500 in 3,000,000 then you would have a point. But just repeating ad-nausium that 200 is a very small figure is pointless. It is avery small figure but 100 is less and 300 is more. What does it mean?

You suggest you fill in your own questionnaire as you are the one indulging in unresearched and unprovable generalities.

I don't want to, Jim. I am not interested as I believe that when a crime is committed it should be treated in the same way regardless of the ethnic background of the perpetrator or the victim. I am purposely NOT indulging in unresearched and unproveable generalities as too many people on here are already doing that.

I am begining to see that you are like the Socailist Worker salesman who called me 'Capitalist Scum and Tory Lackey' because I said I am not buying her paper because I don't support the cause. Or like the BNP worker who said I was a nigger lover becuase I didn't support his cause either. All noise and no substance.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 12:32 PM

Dave
"I am absolutely sure that Keith is trying to point out the some cultures - British Pakistanis in this case - are more prone to commit certain crimes than others."
There really is no need to make Keith's point for him – he has already made it abundantly clear himself.
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."
No room for equivocation – his statement, his belief, and the driving force behind his crusade.
When challenged on this he has scurried behind a non-existent "expert" who, he claims, has inspired him to believe it HE HAS ENDLESSLY BEEN REQUESTED TO PRODUCE THOSE "EXPERTS" ALONG WITH THEIR QUOTE AND HAS TOTALLY FAILED TO DO SO. NO PUBLIC FIGURE WHO VALUED THEIR CAREER OR THEIR LIBERTY WOULD DARE MAKE SUCH A BLATENTLY INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT PUBLICLY – TO DO SO WOULD MEAN THE END OF ANY CAREER AND THEIR POSSIBLE PROCECUTION FOR INCITEMENT TO RACIAL HATRED .
In fact, all Keith's "experts" have said the opposite; that it would be dangerously irresponsible to draw any racial/cultural conclusions from the behaviour of these criminals – police, judges, politicians, social workers..... all involved in this problem.
The survey held last year made the point that there was far too little evidence to link these crimes with any particular racial/cultural group. Far from treating them as a racial/cultural issue, the North of England police stated that they failed to act on them because "they were consensual".
As Brian Creer pointed out regarding the Muslim youth who claimed he didn't realise what he had done was a crime, Keith carefully chose to select the public reaction to the case rather than what the judge actually said – that Muslim culture forbids sex before marriage.
"'It was made clear to you at the school you attended that having sexual relations with a woman before marriage was contrary to the precepts of Islam,' "
Far from these criminals obeying the dictates of their culture, they have stepped away from that culture in order to succumb to the "pressures of their testosterone" as Jack Straw put it.
This is not the first time Keith has doctored his cut-'n-pastes to make his point.
These are the crimes of a tiny minority of criminals from the British Muslim communities – they are not, as Keith (hopefully not you) claims distinctly biased "towards pimping, seduction and grooming by members of the British Pakistani demographic" – they are as old as "the oldest trade" and world-wide – if you believe otherwise, produce your evidence – Keith refuses to.
If my minority of less than 200 is not worth quoting, explain to me why the other 2,999,800 British Muslims, or 999,800 British Pakistanis are not indulging in underage sex and prostituting "white Girls" (does anybody else find the title of this thread as offensive as do?)
If we are to take Keith's long standing point as fact, where does that leave those of us who have had Pakistani/Asian neighbours – should we not turn our backs on them just in case their resistance to their "cultural implant" breaks down – are they the real "enemy within"?
Maybe all those brave young men who went out at night looking for "Pakis" to "bash" are to be praised for helping to clear make our streets safe for 'British womanhood to walk" rather than be vilified.
I am not joking here – if these arguments are to be taken seriously and these crimes are "culturally based then every British Pakistani, even every British Muslim, falls under suspicion of being a threat to underage girls – cultural degenerates in fact.
By the way; I find some of your own generalisations somewhat dubious, even downright offensive – I'm pleased you aren't "trying to say anything about either culture because of it" – would that others followed your example.
I suggest you fill in your own questionnaire as you are the one indulging in unresearched and unprovable generalities.
"and Liz, don't tar all men with the same brush"
Why on earth not – you appear to be quite happy to defend Keith's behaviour?
Jim Carroll
".....those mythical liberals you are so fond of hating is to expose the racism, homophobia and general misanthropy of you and your (fortunately) small cadre of adherents, and incidentally to prevent this forum being regarded as a suitable home for your ilk."
Amen to wot Don just said!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 11:22 AM

""It should be a simple discussion about facts.
Sadly, those who do not have facts resort to smears and personal attack instead.
""

Yes, we've noticed how often you resort to smears and personal attacks on Pakistanis(sorry, BPs to you), and worse!

""the primary issue is the agenda of protecting minorities, whatever the circumstances.""

Missed the point again Ake??

The primary purpose of your opponents (those mythical liberals you are so fond of hating) is to expose the racism, homophobia and general misanthropy of you and your (fortunately) small cadre of adherents, and incidentally to prevent this forum being regarded as a suitable home for your ilk.

Somebody suggested that a certain political party would welcome your kind and perhaps you too would be happier in that company.

Don't expect to see the challenge to your hatreds lessen any time soon on these pages.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 09:46 AM

Hey Lizzie. Women have sex drives too. Don't ask me how I know - you obviously don't want to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 09:35 AM

...and Liz, don't tar all men with the same brush or assume that these crimes are exclusively male.

See this eye-opener. Although, as has been pointed out, we are not talking exclusively about paedophiles either. We are talking grooming, procurement, living off immoral earnings and all sorts of things associated with prostitution. All of which seem to have been female crimes as well!


Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 09:34 AM

Easy, Liz - all you have to do to stop it is post on FarceBook. Thought you'd know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 09:06 AM

Sorry Keith - You are right of course. Brian did start this one - My bad! The other bits still stand though.

One problem in answering your big question is that ethnicity has not always been recorded, but I have not seen any claims of there being an issue of ethnicity in sex crimes in general.

If we go by actual convictions for the specific crime of street grooming by gangs for exploitation of underage persons, there is a large over-representation of BPs.


I am as sure as I can be that ethnicity WILL have been recorded by the legal system. It always is. If it is not I don't understand how you can say that any particular demographic section is over or under represented. How can you say 'there is a large over-representation of BPs' if you do not know the representation in other cultures. If you were to say 'there is a large over-reporting of these crimes when committed by BPs' I don't think anyone would argue with you. Which is it?

Is it over-reporting? Which I think we would all accept.

Or is it over-representation, which can only be proved by providing the figures I asked for?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 08:46 AM

Maybe you should rename this thread....

'Men and girls - again'


And go from there.........as in....

.

"Why the feck do ANY of our sex commit horrendous sexual crimes on babies, little children, young girls and women? And WHAT can we do to stop it?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 08:14 AM

Dave.
Now, as to why this has been brought up is anyone's guess and only Keith can answer that

Brian started this thread, and the 2011 thread was not initially about this. Someone (not me) raised it.

In both cases, I only contributed because it was clear to me there was an issue, but people were denying it.

One problem in answering your big question is that ethnicity has not always been recorded, but I have not seen any claims of there being an issue of ethnicity in sex crimes in general.

If we go by actual convictions for the specific crime of street grooming by gangs for exploitation of underage persons, there is a large over-representation of BPs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:52 AM

Jim, I am going to have just one more attempt to get a sensible answer here. I am absolutely sure that Keith is trying to point out the some cultures - British Pakistanis in this case - are more prone to commit certain crimes than others. Having spent a lot of time with the Irish and West Indian communities in Moss Side (Mainly in pubs!) I am convinced that the Irish were more likely to abuse alcohol while the West Indians used Cannabis a lot more. There was a distinct difference. BUT THAT WAS ONLY MY PERCEPTION AND I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT EITHER CULTURE BECAUSE OF IT.

What Keith is saying, and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, is that there is a distinct bias towards pimping, seduction and grooming by members of the British Pakistani demographic than there is of, say, the British Polish demographic or any other class of ethnicity. Now, as to why this has been brought up is anyone's guess and only Keith can answer that. But nothing I have seen him say here indicates that he believes ALL British Pakistanis have a propensity for this type of crime. Simply that there is A HIGHER PROPORTION of them committing these crimes than there should be.

Now, please don't start quoting absolute numbers like your famous 'less than 200 cases' here. They are meaningless. Maybe either you or Keith could provide us with the facts and figures, that must be available, as to how many IC1 males commit these crimes compared to how many IC1 males there are and the proportion of IC4 males committing these crimes compared to the number of IC4 males there are. If anyone can say with certainty that 0.2% of IC1 males were convicted of grooming related offenses while only 0.1% of IC4 males were convicted of the same, or whatever then at least we will have something to work on.

Of course, why anyone would want to make those comparisons is another question but whether it is to show one section of a community in a bad light or whether it is to genuinely help make the most of scarce police resources, the figures will be about somewhere.

So, someone please, can you fill in the following table?

Ethnicity   Total in this group Number convicted of sex crimes

I will start the table rolling...


IC1 White person
IC2 Mediterranean person
IC3 African/Caribbean person
IC4 Indian, Nepalese, Pakistani, Maldivian, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, or any other (South) Asian person
IC5 Chinese, Japanese, or South-East Asian person
IC6 Arabic, Egyptian or Maghreb person
IC0 Origin unknown


Anyone?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:26 AM

It should be a simple discussion about facts.
Sadly, those who do not have facts resort to smears and personal attack instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 07:26 AM

If I remember correctly, the "Priest abuse" thread lasted much longer than this one. In that thread Jim and his "liberal" cronies pasted the blame full square on the Catholic Church and when i tried to make the point that the abuse was committed by individuals against mainly young boys between 12 and 16 years old, I was called a homophobe.

Jim and a few more here would like to see "religion" abolished, for purely political reasons.....they view it as a conservative organisation; the abuse being only a secondary consideration.

In this thread again, the criminal activity and its causes seem to "liberals" to be of secondary importance.....the primary issue is the agenda of protecting minorities, whatever the circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM

See?

All you do is try as many have also tried to put this debate to bed and the usual suspects take a deep breath and resume their contradiction disguised as debate.

Truth is, criminality is appealing to those who either wish to be criminals or are conditioned such as the odds are they will be so.

Religion or culture sits above such debate in theory but when scriptures allow for subjugation of women and seeing them as sub human, such as the Q'ran or Bible, we shouldn't be too surprised when impressionable young idiots use it to explain their wickedness.   

Similar parallels can be seen in shooting abortion doctors and teaching creationism in Dumbfuckistan or UK churches seeing no wrong in not allowing women to apply for their senior posts. So called respected religious leaders looking down on people for being gay (or women, or reading from a different book of tales to them.)

And then in the spirit of diversity we look for any reason for wickedness other than the disgusting role models in so called Scripture.   

People raped and tortured these children but brainwashing provided the lack of guilt.

Just thought I'd get that off my chest before this thread eventually does bugger off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:53 AM

None of that is true Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 05:49 AM

It has been proven beyond doubt that pimping, seduction and grooming is part and parcel of prostitution in Britain (underage or otherwise) - you have refused to respond.
You have been given an American survey which has described in detail exactly the same methods used world wide and by all cultures - you have refused to respond.
You have been given hard evidence that criminals from Muslim communities are a tiny minority in Britain - you have refused to respond.
You even made the crass statement that European gangs don't groom and pimp underage girls, which alone puts Muslim criminals very much in the minority for this crime - you refuse to acknowledge that fact.   
You have opened yet another "should we be afraid of Muslims?" thread elsewhere - deliberately provocative by your own admission in being aimed at "lefty liberals" who oppose your racist views - you have posted one third of the messages to that thread - some of them in bunches of three.
This sickness has to stop - is there no-one here going to prevent this forum from being used as a continuing platform for incitement to race hatred?
Take your disgusting message elsewhere - I'm sure the BNP would welcome you with open arms.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM

Jim, from your case.
"The men did not know each other, and carried out their activities individually."

From you.
" but not to use it as a platform to incite race/cultural hatred "

Agree Jim, but no-one is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 04:06 AM

"Im sure everybody has the right to highlight the issue."
Yes the do - but not to use it as a platform to incite race/cultural hatred - this is, as the OP points out, only one of many.
"It's some of the conclusions I find frankly disturbing. ."
You can say that again... andf again, and again.
There seems an effort on the part of the same crusade here to turn this into another 'Muslim prejudice' thread, with about he same amount of evidence - none whatever.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208292/Derby-Paedophile-gang-groomed-girls-young-13-giving-cuddly-toys-exchange-sex-jailed.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 03:08 AM

Strange Fruit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 02:55 AM

What conclusion?

For myself, I joined the debate because people were denying there was an issue, and it was clear that there was an issue.

That is the only conclusion I draw.

Jim, there have not been "thousands more of the exact same crime throughout Britain"
There has not been one trial not counted by The Independent except those that have happened since, and they follow the exact same pattern.
You count them.

Brian, there were more arrests just yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 30 Jan 13 - 01:25 AM

Im sure everybody has the right to highlight the issue.

It's some of the conclusions I find frankly disturbing. .


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM

I'm all for shutting this thread down (as the OP).

However, when the next lot occurs, I also reserve the right to bring it up . . . again. Sure as eggs are eggs, it's going to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 12:49 PM

Many thousands...... I know you take a dim view of us, but not all of us have got kids on the game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 12:01 PM

And many, many thousands more of the exact same crime throughout Britain - count them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 08:53 AM

It was not a racist killing.
The Independent, May 2012.
" In 18 child sexual exploitation trials since 1997 – in Derby, Leeds, Blackpool, Blackburn, Rotherham, Sheffield, Rochdale, Oldham and Birmingham – relating to the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by two or more men, most of those convicted were of Pakistani heritage."


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