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BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise

Henry Krinkle 15 Oct 12 - 03:48 PM
gnu 15 Oct 12 - 03:31 PM
Henry Krinkle 15 Oct 12 - 09:19 AM
Bobert 15 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Oct 12 - 06:21 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Oct 12 - 05:48 AM
Henry Krinkle 15 Oct 12 - 01:57 AM
Little Hawk 14 Oct 12 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,999 14 Oct 12 - 08:24 PM
Jeri 14 Oct 12 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,999 14 Oct 12 - 07:33 PM
Ed T 14 Oct 12 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,999 14 Oct 12 - 07:18 PM
Greg F. 14 Oct 12 - 06:14 PM
Don Firth 14 Oct 12 - 04:39 PM
Henry Krinkle 14 Oct 12 - 03:57 PM
Arkie 14 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM
Little Hawk 13 Oct 12 - 11:07 PM
Henry Krinkle 13 Oct 12 - 10:34 PM
Rapparee 13 Oct 12 - 10:28 PM
Little Hawk 13 Oct 12 - 10:14 PM
Henry Krinkle 13 Oct 12 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Lighter 13 Oct 12 - 03:15 PM
Arkie 13 Oct 12 - 03:05 PM
Ed T 13 Oct 12 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Lighter 13 Oct 12 - 02:48 PM
Ed T 13 Oct 12 - 01:19 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 12 - 12:34 PM
Little Hawk 13 Oct 12 - 12:00 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 12 Oct 12 - 11:20 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 12 Oct 12 - 11:18 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 12 - 10:24 PM
Ed T 12 Oct 12 - 10:18 PM
Bobert 12 Oct 12 - 07:54 PM
GUEST,Lighter 12 Oct 12 - 07:47 PM
Little Hawk 12 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 12 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,999 12 Oct 12 - 05:06 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM
Henry Krinkle 12 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM
Ed T 12 Oct 12 - 04:48 PM
Arkie 12 Oct 12 - 04:46 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 12 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,olddude 12 Oct 12 - 04:10 PM
Henry Krinkle 12 Oct 12 - 04:01 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 12 - 03:30 PM
Henry Krinkle 12 Oct 12 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 12 Oct 12 - 02:14 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 12 - 01:41 PM
Arkie 12 Oct 12 - 01:30 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:48 PM

Republicans and Democrats. Hmmmmmmmmm........
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: gnu
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 03:31 PM

Leeches and maggots... hmmm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:19 AM

They have gone back to using leeches, bobette. Maggots too.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM

Having a lively debate on the virtues of lack there-of of slavery might have been relevent 160 years ago but it is no longer anything that civilized people should be debating... Kinda falls in the category of using leeches for medical treatment or the dangers of traveling greater than 28 mph or the possibilty that the earth is flat...

The difference is that with leeches and flat-earth we are talking about a practice that most earthling find repulsive... And have for a long, long time...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 06:21 AM

Then you'd only have the choir to preach to. How much fun is that? Or don't you enjoy lively debate?
(:-( P)=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:48 AM

""Impregnating a slave. Producing more slaves. And you defend it. You make my blood boil. It's sick.""

There's a very simple remedy.........LEAVE!

You won't be missed.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 01:57 AM

Impregnating a slave. Producing more slaves. And you defend it. You make my blood boil. It's sick.
(:-( P)=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 09:16 PM

999 - Brilliant comment by WSC! We are indeed spirits. Spirits are not divided by "race". We shouldn't be either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 08:24 PM

Arkie, I am sorry. I hadn't looked at who started the thread. I've read too many of your posts to think what I said pertains to you. Again, my apologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:36 PM

The comment offended Arkie (who is, IMO one of the good guys), so he started the thread. It's absurd anyone should say such a thing, but it's not good to try to pretend someone would never say it.

And yeah, looks like we have racists here. However, they can try too hard, and that looks desperate. It comes off as their values and integrity not being as important to them as their hatred of Mudcat. People like that are weak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:33 PM

"The destiny of man is not measured by material computation. When great forces are on the move in the world, we learn we are spirits--not animals."

WSC


Thank you, Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:22 PM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill

"Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear." - Alan Coren


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 07:18 PM

Slavery is not a blessing in disguise. It is servitude without honour; it is work for food with no chance of betterment; it is an ugly aspect of human history and maybe character--so ugly in fact that we have to joke about it. It ain't funny.

I am offended by the thread title every time I look in BS. I do not give a damn what your political motivations are, this thread is as wrong as wrong gets. IMO


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 06:14 PM

I think not, Don - I'm just going to throw the shoes away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 04:39 PM

If Jon Hubbard thinks that slavery was a blessing to black people, he needs to experience some himself.

My wife and I subscribe to NetFlix. Last night we watched "Amistad," based on an actually historical incident. A true story, with accurate depictions of life aboard a slave ship transporting a new cargo of slaves from Africa. The incident took place in 1839, resulted in a case argued in the United States Supreme Court by former president, John Quincy Adams (Anthony Hopkins), resulting in a decision that led inevitably to the Civil War.

The treatment of slaves was abominable, and I find that I am thoroughly disgusted with anyone who could treat other humans in the way "the cargo" was treated.

Steven Spielberg went to great lengths to insure the accuracy of the film, and a lot of it was damned hard to watch.

If Jon Hubbard thinks that slavery was a blessing under ANY guise, then he needs to spend a bit of time enduring the shackles and the lash!!

Don Firth

P. S. And as far as Krinkle is concerned, just scrape him off your shoes and then ignore him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 03:57 PM

Miscegenation. A serious criminal act. And the religious issue of adultery. And out of wedlock babies. He was a disgusting man.
(:-( O)=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 14 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM

I know Henry likes to make outlandish comments and for whatever reason but the relationship of Jefferson to Sally Hemings has been studied extensively and there is quite a bit of information on the subject. Though some dispute the findings, I think what is known does provide some insight into Jefferson and the relationship which began after Jefferson was widowed and lasted for 38 years. Anyone who wants details or more extensive information can find it. What is known is that all the children of Sally Hemings while remaining slaves were given responsibilities in he higher realm of slave like. The males were trained artisans and several boys learned to play violin as did Thomas. The girls were house servants. None worked in the fields. One of the girls escaped and was not pursued. Another was supposedly informally freed. An overseer reported giving her $50 and putting her on a stagecoach supposedly to join her sister. Records show that Jefferson formally freed only two slaves in his lifetime. Five male descendants of Sally were freed at his death. Sally was freed by Jefferson's daughter in years after his death. What is not known is why Jefferson did not offer freedom to those he seemed to think of in a special way. It could be because he was attempting to protect them but it is hard to get in the mindset of that era. Accounts of those who traced the Hemings line are that many of them did quite well in later life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 11:07 PM

I think only people who collect hockey cards and/or beanie babies should be allowed to vote. ;-) That's got both genders covered in a fair and equal fashion, and it would weed out the subversives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 10:34 PM

I think only property owners should be permitted to vote.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 10:28 PM

Excuse me, but New Jersey enfranchised anyone with property valued over 50 pounds in 1776. Women were specifically INCLUDED in that state's Constitution, but were written out of the law (unconstitutionally, because it should not have been a legislative issue) in 1807.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 10:14 PM

That was also pretty common. Indeed, it has always been fairly common for the male gentry in most societies to take mistresses among the help...whether or not they were black...whether or not they were slaves...and back then? Very common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 07:58 PM

Jefferson had a negress for a mistress. One of his slaves. What a pig. Knocked her up.
Had a bastard baby.
(:-( o)=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:15 PM

If you own slaves in a society that promotes slavery, and those slaves have been keeping your family going for decades and a few of them are "like (third-class) members of the family," and your friends and neighbors will shun you as a lunatic if you do free them, it's going to be very hard to free your slaves unless you're a moral superhero.

Washington, Jefferson, and others like them were political and moral heroes, but not superheroes. That's life. Unlike Simon Legree, they presumably treated their slaves with as much decency and consideration as they could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:05 PM

Concerning Thomas Jefferson's attitude about slavery:

Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery his whole life. Calling it a "moral depravity" and a "hideous blot," he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation. Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty. These views were radical in a world where unfree labor was the norm.

These comments come from the Jefferson Monticello website. Still he did preside over a working plantation and did own slaves. Another quote from the site: Jefferson wrote that slavery was like holding "a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go." In some instances Jefferson's thinking was quite radical and advanced for his time. In other instances, his thinking reflected that of his age. While he did actively seek ways of ending slavery, his plans included returning slaves and former slaves to Africa or some other location.

Jefferson Site


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:50 PM

The writer of the USA National Anthem, Key, (which was adopted the Anthem in 1931) "disliked slavery and was later active in the antislavery movement, but still owned slaves and as a lawyer took up cases in court to try to free the slaves. Key also orgginally opposed the War of 1812,where he wrote the poem""

Go figure:)

Francis Scott Key
Biography


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:48 PM

Both Washington and Jefferson manumitted their slaves in their wills.

Though they were certainly thinking primarily about white people when they wrote "All men are created equal," they chose not to restrict the wording in that way - unlike the later Confederate Constitution, which specified that the white man, under God's guidance, was boss, and black chattel slavery was forever.

White women couldn't vote in 1789, but they too came under the "created equal" phrase to the extent that they (unlike slaves) were equal under the law. While there might be some inequalities in the statutes, women were still prtected by due process, just like men. (And if the Founders had meant just "men" rather than "human beings" they'd have said so.)

The crucial point, though, is that the "created equal" clause is worded in the most liberal and inclusive manner, allowing the *possibility* that in the future it would apply to everybody. That future began in 1863 and has been expanding ever since.

A Constitution framed by the smug racists and sexists of recent caricature wouldn't have allowed for any greater inclusiveness than what their presumably racist and sexist beliefs would tolerate. It would have said specifically that slaves, women, gays, Native Americans, immigrants, etc., didn't count.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 01:19 PM

Inspired by the 1812-14 war.

USA Anthem info


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 12:34 PM

And the fact that a substantial portion of the U.S. population has NOT changed many of those assumptions in the space of over 200 years is most certainly disturbing and sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 12:00 PM

They were speaking according to the prevailing cultural assumptions of their time, Sandy. The fact that we have changed many of those assumptions in the space of over 200 years is not surprising.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:20 PM

Should read as Declaration Of Independence above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:18 PM

Am I wrong in my understanding that both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, as well as some other signers, were slaveowners? If I am correct does that not make the preamble about all being created equal a hypocracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:24 PM

Got it, Lighter. Thanks for the clarification.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:18 PM

I'll be honest, IMO, most National Anthems suck, when it comes to music. It would be hard to get any of 'em on any of Billboards top 100, for radio listining or downloads. IMO, they all should be repealed and new "catchy" ones replacing them.

(Here's one, Slavery in disguise, with glasses)


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:54 PM

Hey, here's an idea... After white people become a minority in America lets repeal the Emancipation Prockamation and the 14th amendment opening the idea that white people can be owned by minorities in America...

Whatddayall think???

Bobert on the road in Leesburg, Va.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:47 PM

Allow me to step in as one who taught poetry for decades.

The words in question are as follows:

"No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave."

Key's not talking about actual slaves. He's talking about the Tories, British soldiers, and Hessian mercenaries of the Revolution. As in Shakespeare, "slave" is used contemptuously, somewhere between "bootlicker" and "robot." A "hireling" is a mercenary who will do anything for money. The British regulars, like the Hessians, opposed American liberty under orders and for pay, while the American Patriots fought for liberty.

These people, the song says, were doomed to run or die without hope of refuge.

There's nothing about American slavery there.

Stripped of exalted diction, the entire stanza says,

"And where are those people who swore so boastfully, in the middle of the chaos and confusion of war and battle, that they'd leave us no home and no country? I'll tell you where: their blood has washed out the disgusting pollution of their footsteps. There was no place for those bootlickers and mercenaries to run to: they fled like cowards or died! And the star-spangled banner shall wave in triumph over the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

Got it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM

A lot of the organ chords are way off in that 4-verse clip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:29 PM

Greg does that mean Arkansas has such a pristine image that it cannot be harmed by a few nuts cannot do any damage?

No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:06 PM

It's not a very good piece of music. For those who wish to hear all four stanzas when the American National Anthem is played, here ya go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM

But Krinkle--that would delay the game!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM

All verses should be sung. Remember our heritage. They've sanitized it.
(:-( 0)=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:48 PM

I believe it actually meant all citizens are slaves to the corporations, and especially the politions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:46 PM

Greg does that mean Arkansas has such a pristine image that it cannot be harmed by a few nuts cannot do any damage?


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:16 PM

The words were written in 1814. It was not declared the official National Anthem by Congress until 1931. In the interim, it went through a number of transitions. "Folk process," if you will. This accounts for variations in some of the lyrics

The mention of "slavery" in the third verse in no way condones the practice.

Only the first verse is commonly sung.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:10 PM

I bet it is for some people, it all depends if you are the slave owner or the slave right


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:01 PM

The version I have mentions hirelings and slaves. Not servants.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 03:30 PM

This may be one of the reasons that no one ever sings the third verse anymore. But the mention of "servants and slaves" in the third verse and the word "freemen" in the fourth and last verse are quite ambiguous within the context of the rest of the words. It does not favor slavery, it merely mentions how even slaves are not safe from the ravages of war.

Nothing pro or con there, Henry. Just the unfortunate fact that the institution of slavery existed at the time the song was written.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, interesting historical note:

Leo Kottke has mentioned that one of his ancestors wrote the National Anthem

Francis Kottke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 02:31 PM

Slaves are mentioned in The Star Spangled Banner.
3rd verse I believe.
(:-( ))=


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 02:14 PM

Thanks. Like I said, somebody mentioned it. I haven't ever read the bible, Q'ran or any other scripture hence questioning rather than stating. Mind you, when the bible stories were written, I doubt the distinction between slave and servant was too clear, and that's before the translations...

If it says that one set of people with a common belief cannot enslave each other bu can enslave others, it does make you wonder. Such manuals for life would be considered unfit for purpose in any sane society less idiots start wanting to live by it. And to think our Secetary of Statw for education here in The UK has recently put a copy on each school, whilst not putting texts of other religions in. even where, as in many schools, Christian parents are in the minority with Islam and rational people forming the majority.

Just an observation. If they didn't have scriptures to interpret to justify their bigotry, what would they use to push their wicked ideas with? Just a thought


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:41 PM

No, Musket, the New Testament enjoins SERVANTS to obey their masters - unless you're engaging in the same semantic distortions that the ante-bellum Southerners and the current crop of neo-confederate dickheads do.

As for injury to "the image of Arkansas", Arkie, you've GOT to be kidding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Slavery is a blessing in disguise
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:30 PM

The fact that slavery was not condemned in the New Testament has disturbed many sincere Christians. I for one wish, for our benefit, that first century Christianity had specifically condemned that vile institution. However, by all historical accounts, slavery was an accepted and ingrained element of the economy and social structure of that day and former times. People even sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. And though the Bible does have some rules regarding slavery, such as Jews could not enslave fellow Jews, it primarily deals with slave holding in an indirect way. In Paul's letters regarding the way a Christian is to live, he stresses a fair treatment of slaves and that Christian slave owners practice their faith in managing slaves as well as every other aspect of their lives. And in early Churches slaves and masters worshiped as equals. I would like to see more verification of this but supposedly there were churches where the slave may hold a higher position in the local congregation that the master.

Although the early Christian church did not specifically forbid the ownership of slaves it did present teaching that become a basis for Christians and other honorable and intelligent people to reject the principle of one human being claiming ownership of another.


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