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BS: 'Gay marriage' question

bobad 07 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 09:41 AM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 09:49 AM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 10:36 AM
John P 07 Oct 12 - 11:31 AM
Howard Jones 07 Oct 12 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 07 Oct 12 - 12:05 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 02:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Oct 12 - 03:01 PM
Howard Jones 07 Oct 12 - 03:16 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 03:50 PM
kendall 07 Oct 12 - 03:53 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 07 Oct 12 - 03:58 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 03:58 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 07 Oct 12 - 04:29 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 04:45 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 12 - 05:03 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 12 - 05:12 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 12 - 06:24 PM
Bill D 07 Oct 12 - 09:53 PM
gnu 07 Oct 12 - 10:14 PM
John P 08 Oct 12 - 09:48 AM
Bill D 08 Oct 12 - 11:09 AM
akenaton 08 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM
akenaton 08 Oct 12 - 05:14 PM
gnu 08 Oct 12 - 06:10 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,TIA 08 Oct 12 - 10:43 PM
akenaton 09 Oct 12 - 03:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 09 Oct 12 - 04:54 AM
Henry Krinkle 09 Oct 12 - 05:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 12 - 07:23 AM
Jack the Sailor 09 Oct 12 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,TIA 09 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Oct 12 - 08:23 AM
Bill D 09 Oct 12 - 11:34 AM
akenaton 09 Oct 12 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 09 Oct 12 - 02:35 PM
akenaton 09 Oct 12 - 03:20 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 12 - 03:50 PM
Ebbie 09 Oct 12 - 03:56 PM
akenaton 09 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 12 - 04:11 PM
akenaton 09 Oct 12 - 04:13 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 12 - 04:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Oct 12 - 07:49 PM
Bill D 09 Oct 12 - 08:23 PM
akenaton 10 Oct 12 - 01:59 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: bobad
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM

"Is incest an "innate sexual orientation"?"

Incest is not a sexual orientation it is a sexual deviation.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:41 AM

Aren't the two interchangeable?

Doesn't some peoples orientation deviate from the normal path?

Ian. you are clutching at straws.
20% of new hiv cases amongst "black or white heterosexual women is a medical problem.
70% of new cases amongst male homosexuals is an epidemic.
CDC says that in major US cities, 1 in 5 carry the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:49 AM

May 2012 HIV among Gay and Bisexual Men
Fast Facts
•• Gay and bisexual men are more severely affected by HIV than any other group in the United States (US).
•• Among all gay and bisexual men, blacks/African Americans bear the greatest disproportionate burden of HIV.
•• From 2006 to 2009, HIV infections among young black/African American gay and bisexual men increased 48%.
Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM)1 represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the
population most severely affected by HIV. In 2009, MSM accounted for 61% of all new HIV infections, and MSM with a history
of injection drug use (MSM-IDU) accounted for an additional 3% of new infections. That same year, young MSM accounted
for 69% of new HIV infections among persons aged 13–29 and 44% of infections among all MSM. At the end of 2009, an
estimated 441,669 (56%) persons living with an HIV diagnosis in the US were MSM or MSM-IDU.
The Numbers
New HIV Infections2
•• In 2009, MSM accounted for 61% of new HIV
infections in the US and 79% of infections among all
newly infected men. Compared with other groups,
MSM accounted for the largest numbers of new HIV
infections in 2009.
•• Among all MSM, white MSM accounted for 11,400
(39%) new HIV infections in 2009. The largest number
of new infections (3,400) occurred in those aged
40–49.
•• Among all MSM, black/African American MSM
accounted for 10,800 (37%) new HIV infections in
2009. Whereas new HIV infections were relatively
stable among MSM overall from 2006–2009, they
increased 34% among young MSM—an increase
largely due to a 48% increase among young black/
African American MSM aged 13–29.
•• Among all MSM, Hispanic/Latino MSM accounted for
6,000 (20%) new HIV infections in 2009. The largest
percentage of new infections (45%) occurred in those
aged 13–29.
HIV and AIDS Diagnoses3 and Deaths
•• In 2010, in the 46 states with long-term confidential,
name-based reporting, MSM accounted for 78% of
estimated HIV diagnoses among all males aged 13
years and older, and 61% of estimated diagnoses
among all persons receiving an HIV diagnosis that year.
•• At the end of 2009, of the estimated 784,701 persons living with an HIV diagnosis, 396,810, or 51%, were MSM. About 48%
of MSM living with an HIV diagnosis were white, 30% were black/African American, and 19% were Hispanic/Latino.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 10:36 AM

From the source quoted by Ian.

"The number of new diagnoses among MSM in 2011 (2,475) is expected to reach 3,000 when all reports are received. This continues the slow but steady increase observed over the past decade. The majority of MSM diagnosed in 2011 are white (84%) and acquired their infection within the UK (84%). Analysis of data from each of the related surveillance systems strongly suggest that the continuing high annual numbers of new HIV diagnoses in MSM have been driven by an underlying high and unchanged HIV incidence"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: John P
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 11:31 AM

The only way for Akenaton to get from health figures (whether or not they are accurate) to legal discrimination is to assume that homosexuality is a choice. This is true both in his desire to discriminate against (punish) gay people and in his stated reason that accepting homosexuality as "normal" will be bad for society. The only way it could be bad for society (if you accept that whole concept) is if it encouraged people to become gay who wouldn't have done so on their own.

Akenaton has never responded to any of the inaccuracies or faulty logic his arguments are based on (which means they aren't real arguments at all), but the issue of choice is the hook that all of his logic, such as it is, hangs on. He thinks, contrary to his own experience, that people choose their sexual orientation.

His bringing the question of religious freedom into the debate is ironic, since religious belief IS a choice and probably should be protected in some way other than by being lumped with race, ethnicity, and gender, which, like homosexuality, people don't choose.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 12:01 PM

What are the health risks to a couple (of any sexual orientation) in a faithful monogamous relationship?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 12:05 PM

Still confused at this end.

He hasn't mentioned any public health figures from The UK yet still seems to throw the term UK into his diatribe. His USA figures are selective and drill down into groupings where there are clusters and ignores groupings where the picture does not support his preposition.

Funny that.

As he then talks about all homosexual activities being bad for the health of everybody, his prejudice shows through. Why does he use carefully doctored statistics, available on websites of Christian fundamental groups but not anywhere else to make us want to shun sections of society?

He already has Jack the Sailor saying he has the right to try and influence debate on the basis he seems more reasonable than me. What if anybody else was as gullible?

Of course, that is his aim. Why Akenaton? Just why? What gives you the right to copy and paste massaged figures and say"There, that's why we need to hate and discourage lifestyle choices, because thy are all hedonistic irresponsible people", even when all they want is their monogamous marriages to ge recognised as such (remembering what this thread is all about)

John P makes the point that you do not necessarily choose to be gay. However, don't forget that doesn't mean someone isn't comfortable and content with their sexual orientation. Akenaton has cried that this is just down to left wing governments and agencies encouraging them on the basis of political correctness. Well fuck me drunk, I must be right on after all, instead of the filthy rotten capitalist I really am, according to another interesting character on these threads.

Oh, and the legal definition of epidemic; at least get something as simple as that right if you wish to bandy figures. I am no genius and rely on consultant doctors in the field of public health for edipemiology advice, or did when I chaired an NHS body. But even I know what makes an epidemic and selective cluster figures, even if they reflected a larger picture, which they don't, do not mean epidemic. We have gone a long way since the complacency of the mid '80s and accepting a gay lifestyle by the rest of society has been one of the big success stories in combating the health issue by removing the stigma.

Hence Akenaton's stance being so utterly appalling.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 02:02 PM

Ian, the post referring to the source you quoted(distortedly),

pertains to UK hiv figures....a man in your elevated position should be capable of a little concentration?

Allow me to re-post for the intellectually challenged.

HPA
"The number of new diagnoses among MSM in 2011 (2,475) is expected to reach 3,000 when all reports are received. This continues the slow but steady increase observed over the past decade. The majority of MSM diagnosed in 2011 are white (84%) and acquired their infection within the UK (84%). Analysis of data from each of the related surveillance systems strongly suggest that the continuing high annual numbers of new HIV diagnoses in MSM have been driven by an underlying high and unchanged HIV incidence"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:01 PM

dan_savage_to_tony_perkins_sure_sue_me


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:16 PM

3000 new cases of HIV, out of a UK gay population estimated to be 3.6m, doesn't seem that many to be getting in such a state about. It's considerably fewer than, say the number of new cases of TB (more than 9000 new cases reported in 2011).

But I'll ask the question again, if you're so concerned about the health threats to gays, why are so opposed to allowing them to be monogamous relationships and for these to be fully recognised in law?

By the way, not all gays seeking to get married are male - HIV is almost unheard of amongst non-drug using lesbians.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:50 PM

Howard, the latest estimate from HPA(Ian's organisation of choice), is just under 430.000 MSM in the UK and infection rates are rising steadily.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: kendall
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:53 PM

Smoking is unhealthy, drinking to excess, texting while driving etc. the bottom line is this: Who I marry is none of your f*****G business.

In no way does it threaten traditional marriage. The control freaks are jumping at shadows.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:58 PM

Howard, you have noticed.

His figure are extremely selective. Not only that, they fail to take into account the statistic I mentioned above. It is a bit like saying they cured cancer tomorrow and the day after, The Daily M*il leading with "Heart disease. Biggest killer"

Tell you what. Let me hypothetically say OK Akenaton, your cluster figures represent the overall picture. After all. I am we'll used to meetings with politicians whom presume tabloid interpretations require action rather than HPA figures.

Even then his solution is not tenable in the 21st century, at least not in polife society.

So do me a favour Akenaton. Don't try to win the figures argument because even if you did, you fall at the hurdle of solution. You can't tell a stakeholder in society that society disapproves of your right to a peaceful private life.

If your (or those whom you get your figures from) figures painted the picture, NHS health promotion budgets would have to be seen to reflect doing something about it. In reality, health promotion is rightly targeting the HIV issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 03:58 PM

Sorry to double post(pressed the wrong button).

There are approx 9000 cases of TB reported annually in the UK, from a population of 64,000,000.

Please stick to percentages.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM

"Smoking is unhealthy, drinking to excess, texting while driving"

Kendal, you are correct, and all of the above have been criminalised in one way or another in the UK.

Next?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:09 PM

Ian...There are no winners associated with these terrible figures, only losers and most of them are homosexuals.
Of course that is of no importance when set against the survival of "liberal" ideology.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:29 PM

Losers occur when society finds excuses to marginalise them.

Liberal ideology is about living together in harmony. Or so I'm told. Wouldn't know, living in my ivory tower.

Using your warped logic, parents over the age of 45 have a marked increase in giving birth to a baby with Downs Syndrome, so let's stigmatise fucking in middle age eh?

Or would that make too many people "liberal" whem they oppose such an idea..

Let's not encourage poor people to have televisions. After all, they'll only use them to watch lowest common denominator daytime telly, thus leaving less budget for high brow programmes for clever important people like you.

Let us not encourage gay people to marry. Obviously, it is better if they are promiscuous hedonistic poofters. That way, it's easier for you to point and blame.

Let us welcome idiots having computers and half a brain. Then we can see the state of society should dangerous idiots have their way. Jack the Sailor appears to have a point after all....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:45 PM

Ian....Homosexuals are many times less "marginalised" today than they were twenty years ago, yet hiv rates are many times higher amongst them.

Correct me if I am wrong, but do not parents of Down's Syndrome pregnancies have the option to abort the feotus?

I never watch television.(hardly ever), I am not "clever", I have had limited education.

Whether you own or merely borrow the computer you use, is none of "my fucking business"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:03 PM

"......but do not parents of Down's Syndrome pregnancies have the option to abort the feotus?"

Not if the self-appointed "guardians of morality" and "right to lifers" have their way.

And the same "guardians of morality" would also deny same-sex couples the right to form legally recognized stable relationships, which would be a strong incentive for the reduction of promiscuity.

There is something hypocritical about your claims of concern about the spread of HIV and your opposition to gay marriage, Ake.

There is a fundamental contradition there.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:12 PM

"There is a fundamental contradition there."

Ahh........but is it "folk"????

Who left the fuckin' gate open?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 06:24 PM

You're dodging the issue, Ake. And clumsily so.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:53 PM

"..printing your posts in bold script and casting aspertions on my motives..."

One was a simple failure to properly do HTML...was meant to be only a couple of words.

The other... ah, the other....I ...and others..still have my doubts about your motives, since you STILL avoid a truly direct question about them. I don't read minds, and I wish this was merely a debate about facts - but people have been disputing your analysis of the relevance of certain statistics for many months, and you still seem to be comfortable with glibly asserting that it is merely 'health' issues that cause you to pursue this reasoning.
Why would anyone NOT cast aspersions on such a superficial analysis? HIV/AIDS is a serious issue, and at one time it was spread 'more' thru homosexual partners, but this is no longer true.

In any case, it has been pointed out that many, many gay people are in long-term, careful, non-promiscious stable relationships...yet you STILL wish to object to them having the same rights as others... and you seem to define attempts to obtain those rights as "promoting an unhealthy lifestyle".
You need to review and reconsider a definition of 'promoting'.


ummm... dare I ask again whether you'd continue to object to homosexuals being married and having rights IF the "health issues" were solved tomorrow?

Check A for yes and B for no:

A.

B.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: gnu
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 10:14 PM

I came back to see where this million post thread is at and I read...

From:akenaton - PM
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:12 PM

"There is a fundamental contradition there."

Ahh........but is it "folk"????

Who left the fuckin' gate open?
***************************************************************

Who left the gate open INDEED! Ya gotta be shittin me? I can't tell you how funny that strikes me. I am chuckling consistently. Thanks for the laugh at your own expense.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: John P
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:48 AM

Folks, all the myriad flaws in Akenaton's reasoning have been pointed out to him literally hundreds of times over the last few years. Are you really expecting him to suddenly come up with responses to you? One of the things about bigotry is that there is no defense for it. He doesn't have the answers to your questions because those answers don't exist. Akenaton has, for years, put forth his unethical ideas, been soundly refuted in 100 ways, waited a few days in silence, and then put forth the same ideas again, all without ever having to respond to anyone, other than to tell them they are stupid liberal sheep.

I think he has proved that he's not going to get any better at this. Give up on him. Since his particular form of bigotry is tied in with his sexual orientation, he probably can't help himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:09 AM

"Give up on him."

well... that might be a plan!

I am reminded of a story.

A biology professor was trying to get his class to follow some of the details of a chapter on reproduction by having them read parts aloud. When "Miss Jones" was asked to read she kept substituting, when she came to the word 'pregnant', "unwell". After a minute, he stopped her and asked: "What was the woman's condition, Miss Jones?"

"Umm...she was 'expecting'."

The professor sighed: "Miss Jones, the word is "pregnant" P-R-E-G-N-A-N-T....your mother was 'pregnant', your grandmother was 'pregnant', and by the grace of God and the help of some young man, someday you too, will be 'pregnant'!"

Well, Miss Jones gasped and ran out of the class in tears. But the incident was reported to the Dean, and the professor was ordered to apologize...in class! So, a couple days later, the professor came in, sat his books down and announced:

"The other day I made a mistake when correcting Miss Jones. I now wish to retract what I said...I do not believe Miss Jones will ever become pregnant."


-------------------------------

There's no way to change some folks' mindset... so....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM

Sorry Don...you're right, that was a stupid joke....apologies.

But I am not trying to dodge anything, I keep getting asked the same questions and I think I am answering them adequately.

Howard and Ian were trying to distort the figures, so I quoted direct from CDC and HPA. I may not be well educated, but I am not stupid, I can spot games people play, a mile away.

Bill I have answered your question many times.
I am against legislation to bring forward homosexual marriage mainly on health grounds. I have advanced facts to back up my stance many times, surely I dont have to go through it all again.

I am also anti on the grounds of damage to the very important family structure......details above.
So in conclusion, if the hiv rates among MSM were to drop to anything approaching hetero levels, I would still be against the legislation.
I have stated this many times before.....why is it so important to you?

On "equality" the only issue the pros can bring forward, I notice that no one has addressed the position of people who wish to live as man and wife with a close relative.

There have been cases when these people have offered to be sterilised, so that there would be absolutely no health problems, yet they are denied all "rights" even civil rights insurance rights etc which are now available to homosexuals.
They have to live a secret life, always in fear of prosecution, yet the "liberals" look the other way.....I smell hypocrisy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 05:14 PM

Only one question for you Bill....respectfully.

Would you agree that male homosexuals are massively over represented in the official HIV figures and if so, why?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: gnu
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 06:10 PM

ake... "on health grounds"... that is exactly your own arguement that you deny.

Sigh... another million posts won't get you to understand. When someone argues illogically against their own arguements ya just can't teach them their arguements are inane. I'll check back later, maybe. I doubt if any of this crap will change... in a million posts. It would take some intelligence and some modesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM

"Would you agree that male homosexuals are massively over represented in the official HIV figures and if so, why?"

Yes, Ake, I would agree with the statement.

As to the "why," homosexuals are not allowed to form legally and socially recognized stable relationships. If they were, there would be a measure of social pressure to form such relationships, the same as heterosexual couples with the concomitant social pressure against promiscuous behavior.

That is the fundamental contradiction in your position. Decrying the amount of HIV infections among homosexual men, you would deny them a legal and social means of mitigating the situation.

I don't think it is because you can't see this, it is because you refuse to see this. And this raises questions about why you refuse to see the obvious.

I have mentioned the church that I sometimes go to. It not only accepts same-sex oriented people, but it has performed a number of same-sex marriages, and whether state law recognizes them or not, this church—and its congregation—does.

There was a lot of discussion of this issue a couple of decades ago, and we were warned that the congregation would deminish to a very few people. It didn't happen. I think we lost a total of three members. Out of a congregation of--what?-about two hundred and fifty or so.

By the way, this has NOT become a "gay church." It is a main line denomination. Lutheran. The number of same-sex oriented people in this church reflects the demographics of the community at large.

The first same-sex marriage ceremony was performed nearly twenty years ago, and ALL of the couples are still together, and NONE of them have contracted HIV/AIDs.

As to the "marriage is for procreation" argument, two of these same-sex married couples have children.

One of the couples adopted two boys from a Chinese orphanage. Believe me, these kids are having—and will continue to have—a far better life than they would have had if they had been left were they were. And they are healthy, happy kids. One of them is an acolyte in the church and the other is a bit young for duties like that yet.

There are a fair number of kids out there who are wards of the state or who languish in orphanages who would be far batter off in circumstances like these two lads have.

Another couple decided they wanted to have children that were biologically their own. They contracted the services of a "surrogate mother." Fertilization by artificial insemination. The first man had a baby boy. Then the same surrogate mother (they wanted the children to be, at least, half-siblings) was artificially inseminated by the second man.

BAM! TRIPLETS!!

It's a real snort to see these kids in church on Sundays.

As to the matter of feminine influence on the boys, all of the men involved have sisters and various female friends who dote on the lads, so the boys are not in any way deprived in that department.

And as to the knee-jerk charge about the dangers of pedophilia, no way in hell! These men regard these youngsters as their children and themselves as fathers. And the youngsters themselves see nothing particularly unusual in their families and are obviously healthy and happy.

By the way, there are at least five main line churches (denominations that have been around for centuries) that I know of in this area that recognize same-sex marriages and conduct marriage ceremonies for same sex couples, whether, as I said, state law recognizes them as valid or not.

[Let them choke on that at the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference!]

It is in the state's recognition: community property laws, inheritance laws, and things like hospital visitation rights where legal recognition becomes important. THIS is the nucleus of the civil rights issue.

No, Ake. Your objections don't wash. And although I tend to think you are a pretty intelligent guy, that you don't seem to be able to grasp THIS really makes me wonder why.

I have some theories, which I'm quite sure you don't want to hear.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 10:43 PM

Ake...this is a compliment...

It is precisely because many here can tell that you are intelligent that many are pretty sure you have a hidden agenda.

You seem way to smart to actually believe the self-contradictory argument that you cling to.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:04 AM

But I keep telling you, infection rates have not decreased over the last ten years when legislation has become more "liberal", civil union, homosexual "marriage", less marginalisation etc.
They have massively increased!!

If that is the crux of your objections to my stance, then it is you who are being unreasonable.

Please stop insinuating that i am latently homosexual. This is an intellectual debate, and that line makes you all look foolish.

gnu is obsessed by "trolls"....surely this does not mean that he himself is a troll?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:54 AM

http://www.avert.org/uk-statistics.htm

They have massively increased!!

If massively increased means stayed stable with a recent dip.
Rose gradually from 2000 in 2002 to 2900 in 2007 and back down to 2500 now looking at the graph. AIDS diagnoses slowly decreasing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:25 AM

The whole (pun?) concept(pun?) is heinous (pun?)....
(:-( 0)=


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:23 AM

From Jack's link.
By the end of December 2011, 53,161 MSM had been diagnosed with HIV in the UK.7 The number of new HIV diagnoses among this group has been steadily increasing since 2001 - peaking in 2007 at 2,811. It is likely this trend is due to an increase in HIV testing, although a rise in high risk sexual behaviour has also been suggested as a contributory factor.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:44 AM

Yeah Keith. So there is increased testing and the increase, year to year is anything but "massive." Akeneton. Do you have another point to make or shall we consider this topic closed?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM

Okay then, if we are to follow your line of logic, here is a very simple question:

In Swaziland, HIV is epidemic, and affects women at approximately twice the rate of men.

Would you favor making marriage to Swazi women illegal?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:23 AM

To return this question of "marriage": in the UK, we have had for some years now the availability of a legal "civil partnership":

Civil partnerships in the United Kingdom, granted under the Civil Partnership Act 2004, give same-sex couples rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage.[1] Civil partners are entitled to the same property rights as married opposite-sex couples, the same exemption as married couples on inheritance tax, social security and pension benefits, and also the ability to get parental responsibility for a partner's children,[2] as well as responsibility for reasonable maintenance of one's partner and their children, tenancy rights, full life insurance recognition, next of kin rights in hospitals, and others. There is a formal process for dissolving partnerships akin to divorce. Wikipedia

So the objections which Ake keeps raising are irrelevant ~~ the sort of relationship he predicates 'marriage' as liable to open the way for has been, in all but name, available for the past 8 years. Five couples in my close and immediate acquaintance, all of whom had faithful & stable partnerships for years previously, have entered into such partnerships. Four of them are still together; the other has been terminated by death.

So all that is really being discussed here is whether it is appropriate to use the word marriage, in place of 'civil partnership' for such arrangements. Baleful prognostications about potential health hazards seem to me to be the day-before-yesterday's tired controversies. It is simply a matter of nomenclature with which we are concerned here, surely?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 11:34 AM

"Bill I have answered your question many times.
I am against legislation to bring forward homosexual marriage mainly on health grounds."

You have NEVER answered the specific question I asked. You couldn't even check the "no" box.

"I am also anti on the grounds of damage to the very important family structure. That is nonsense... straight people can continue to marry in the same way... allowing gays to marry changes nothing except a few dictionaries.... and dictionaries reflect common usage, not universal truth.

(BTW... *I* have never even hinted that you were latently homosexual. I have only wondered about your basic motives, given your reluctance to approve of even the idea more 'gay rights' if the health issue were solved.)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 01:43 PM

Jack....what you have quoted are the figures for ALL new hiv infections.

Indeed infections are falling in all demographics except MSM.

MSM hiv figures are rising steadily, and are massively higher than they were ten years ago.

HPA
"The number of new diagnoses among MSM in 2011 (2,475) is expected to reach 3,000 when all reports are received. This continues the slow but steady increase observed over the past decade. The majority of MSM diagnosed in 2011 are white (84%) and acquired their infection within the UK (84%). Analysis of data from each of the related surveillance systems strongly suggest that the continuing high annual numbers of new HIV diagnoses in MSM have been driven by an underlying high and unchanged HIV incidence"

Beware of all data from Avert.com......Stick to govt sites
CDC in USA.... HPA in UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 02:35 PM

You know, all this attention on one deluded individual runs the risk of him thinking he is important. He even appears to have found a website about The HPA that like the real HPA gives out epidemiology statistics. His though seems more selective than the one I use from time to time to inform my work.

But, whether you use raw, weighted, standardised or drilled down data, even if the actual figures support the selective pickings he quotes; the mental leap he makes from it is utterly appalling. I doubt he can deduce his view from the facts. I am led to believe he deduces facts from his views.

And that sadly puts him beneath contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:20 PM

What is appalling Ian, are not my views, but the horrific rates of death and disease which inflict MSM.

It is beneath contempt to ignore these rates, pretend they don't exist, or even worse to distort the figures to make them look acceptable.

However you are in good company, as some websites are now presenting hiv figures without demographics...hence giving the impression that the epidemic amongst MSM(CDC's words) is under control

As I explained to Jack, HIV rates in total may be falling,but amonst MSM rates continue to rise, standing presently at around 70% of new infections.

How high must these rates get before you conceed that something is wrong and some course of action requires to be taken?

No word on the "rights" of other sexual minorities?
No answer to my question Bill?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:50 PM

I believe that if the figures for same sex couples who are married or in civil unions were broken out of the other figures, you would find a drastic decrease in the spread of HIV/AIDs.

I've been acquainted with a number of gay men, some of whom, over the years, have contracted the disease. But NONE of the gay men I know who are in the kind of monogamous, stable relationships that would be encouraged by the legalization and acceptance of same-sex marriage have contracted the disease.

Ake is mixing apples and oranges.

Further. In a frank conversation I had some years ago with a young gay man when the church my wife and I attend was considering adopting the "Affirmation of Welcome," we discussed the matter of choice versus inbred, probably genetic. He told me that he had made no choice. He always knew he was "different." Then he added: "Considering that being 'gay' opens you up to all kinds of contempt and insults from certain people, can get you dragged into a back alley and beaten up—repeatedly—and can even get you killed—who in his right mind would ever CHOOSE to be gay!??"

Point taken!

The Affirmation of Welcome which, within recent years, has been adopted by a number of churches, including Central Lutheran Church of the Holy Trinity in Seattle, to which my wife and I are members.
As a community of the people of God, we are called to minister to all people in our world, knowing that the world is often an unloving place. Our world is a place of alienation and brokenness. Christ calls us to reconciliation and wholeness. We are challenged by the Gospel to be agents of healing within our society.
             We affirm with the apostle Paul that in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female" (Galatians 3:28). Christ has made us one. We acknowledge that this reconciliation extends to people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.
             Because gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered persons and their families are often scorned by society and alienated from the Church, we wish to make known our caring and concern. It is for this purpose that we affirm the following:

•that people of all sexual orientations and gender identities share the worth that comes from being unique individuals created by God;

•that people of all sexual orientations and gender identities are welcome within the membership of this congregation upon making a common, public affirmation of faith; and

•that as members of this congregation, people of all sexual orientations and gender identities are expected and encouraged to share in the sacramental and general life of this congregation."
Central Lutheran's congregation voted almost unanimously to adopt the affirmation.

Now, civilization waits for the laws to catch up.

Don Firth

P. S. In the coming election, Washington State's residences should vote FOR Initiative 74.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 03:56 PM

"How high must these rates get before you conceed that something is wrong and some course of action requires to be taken?" ake

In the past I recall your having responding to the question of what you perceive can be done about it- but I don't remember what it was. Would you give it again? What "new course of action" requires being taken?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM

Of course those in a union or "marriage" are less likely to contract HIV,(usually older men I believe), but only a tiny percentage of MSM want to remain monogamous....according to "marriage"/Union take up rates. So you have presented a moot point Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:11 PM

Perhaps it's that way in the UK, Ake, but not here in the US.

And only older men? No. Most of the gay men I'm acquainted with who want to see a same-sex marriage law passed are in their twenties and thirties.

An encouraging trend, I would say. And you would kill it a-borning?

Why?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:13 PM

Hello Ebbie, thank you for your courtesy.

Firstly a national medical inquiry into the reasons for the huge hiv rates amongst MSM
Compulsory testing and contact tracing for "at risk" groups....almost half of MSM under 30 who tested possitive, were unaware of their status.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:39 PM

Crucial question:

What percentage of the MSM under thirty who were tested did NOT test positive?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:49 PM

The graph I was referring to was for MSM.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:23 PM

"No word on the "rights" of other sexual minorities?
No answer to my question Bill? "



To be VERY clear... I would tend to allow ANY personal arrangement of not compelled or pressured, dedicated, honest, human beings.

I would allow any pair of humans to apply for a marriage license thru normal channels. Then, any other combination (3 or more) would have to submit a detailed contract stating financial obligations, plans for raising children...etc., etc. These would have to be approved by lawyers, counselors and possibly other officials. **This is only a theory** Many of such plans would likely NOT be approved due to doubts about sincerity, schooling, finances...etc.... but they would not be prevented from applying.

For an example of what 'might' be approved, read "Proposition 31", by Robert Rimmer. (The sequel to "The Harrad Experiment")

Of course, I do NOT expect such laws to be forthcoming.... though you can bet that some such situations already exist 'under the official radar'.

So... "other sexual minorities" would have all the common rights as long as they are consenting, sane and of legal age.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 01:59 AM

First part of question unanswered.
Second part seems very complicated, taking into account that you and others consider...."All you need is lurve", for homosexuals?

Conclusion.....You are bullshitting.


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