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BS: 'Gay marriage' question

GUEST,Guest from Sanity 22 Dec 12 - 11:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 04:15 AM
akenaton 23 Dec 12 - 05:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 06:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 23 Dec 12 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 08:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 08:48 AM
John P 23 Dec 12 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM
John P 23 Dec 12 - 12:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 12 - 01:52 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 12 - 02:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 02:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 02:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 02:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 03:21 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 12 - 04:20 PM
frogprince 23 Dec 12 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 12 - 04:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 05:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 12 - 05:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM
gnu 23 Dec 12 - 07:25 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 12 - 07:37 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 12 - 07:47 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 12 - 08:01 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 23 Dec 12 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Dec 12 - 01:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 12 - 02:16 AM
akenaton 24 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Dec 12 - 07:02 AM
Musket 24 Dec 12 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 12 - 08:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM
akenaton 24 Dec 12 - 11:57 AM
Don Firth 24 Dec 12 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 24 Dec 12 - 11:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Dec 12 - 06:12 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Dec 12 - 11:10 PM

...and don't bother with rebutting with the COVER story about the green monkey....It was just a cover story!..you know...how those government disinformation tidbits pop up every so often..
...so save it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM

Steve, no so what.
I was replying to Musket who said that the rate was only slightly higher for MSMs.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:15 AM

Actually, if you had said "so what" when the health issue was raised, the discussion would have been cut short.
Instead you tried to deny it, allowing Ake to rub your noses in your ignorance.
STI pathogens ought not to discriminate in a liberal world, but they do and there is no point in blaming the messengers.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 05:04 AM

Steve....I dont honestly think that "education" or additional information is the answer to this issue.
I think male to male sex is the problem...it does seem to carry with it a need to participate in extremely risky sexual activity.
To be blunt, sex seems desperately important amonst young MSM without the stabilising effect of children, especially children created by a traditional heterosexual couple; and the family structure which is built up therebye.

Gay marriage is really a bit of a red herring, a cause celebre for "liberals" with too much time on there hands. The only reason it has any prominence is through the support of the arts and entertainment media, which controls how many of our younger populace think...or fail to think.
Also, control of important information, like the figures we are posting, gives the appearance of all being well in the community of MSM....I repeat, very few people are even aware of the desperate situation, thinking that as overall hiv figures are falling, they are also falling in the MSM demographic.
The exact opposite is the case and instead of promulgating the cosy notion that "all is well", "leave them alone", "Lurve conquers everything", we should be making serious attempts to irradicate a disease which has now become an epidemic within male homosexuality.

A degree of compulsion is required if the life sentence passed on these thousands of young men is to be rescinded.

"liberals" would be better to concentrate on the quality of life which can be achieved for homosexuals, rather than loading their shoulders with "rights" which simply ensure that the unbelievably cruel status quo continues to oblivion.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:58 AM

""After all, it's far easier to gay-bash when you can do the Daily Express thing of smearing gay people with visiting horrid plagues on the rest of us.""

Which, of course, would be arrant nonsense anyway.

The concept is self destroying idiocy. The clue is in the "Men having sex with Men".

Apart from a very small number of bi-sexuals (and most bisexuals are oriented more toward hetero) they aren't passing anything on to the hetero majority.

In fact the reverse is more likely these days.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:06 AM

""Is it that you can't read, or just that you don't bother. The situation as at 2010 was not an invention of mine, but the FACTS regarding HIV/AIDS laid out for the education of fools and bigots by The Health Protection Agency, whose pronouncements are, according to you and your toadies, gospel when they seem to support your prejudice, and rubbish when they do not.

HIV is reduced to a "chronic manageable condition" with the prospect of "a near normal lifespan".

Those are not my words, they are not spin. They are the assertions of highly qualified medical practitioners, whose word is infinitely more credible than the maunderings of a bunch of homophobes who spend their time trying to interfere in others' sexual practices.
""

Your answers to the findings of the HPA would be appreciated Keith and Ake.

Ake's homophobia is a given, but Keith is building up an impressive list of well respected and generally truthful international bodies with whose statements he disagrees. The United Nations, Amnesty International, The HPA, and many many more are flat out wrong and Keith is right.

He'll be wanting recognition as a Divinity before long.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:15 AM

Don, I did know that HIV can now be controlled with drugs, and near normal life expectancy achieved.
You post as if I had suggested otherwise.

I posted some statistics on the very much higher risk of acquiring STIs for MSMs.
I hope you are not challenging any of them Don.

What you may not know is that control of HIV is only possible with an early diagnosis from a blood test.
AIDS is still a sentence to a lingering death if you wait for symptoms to appear.
There is good evidence of large scale undiagnosed HIV within the MSM community.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:19 AM

In the meantime I will carry on working as I do, regulating those working in the field of amongst other things STDs.

Luckily, as they deal with the real world they plan capacity and approach from the facts and competent analysis.

They leave any views at home. They don't base their work on views.

If they did the situation would begin to look like Akenaton's hell and Keith's party political scare stories to attract votes for an obnoxious right wing party.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:43 AM

HPA
HIV is an extremely serious infection. There are excellent treatment options available nowadays but these are only at their most effective if the infection is diagnosed early, before symptoms appear. This is a challenge as most individuals will not be aware of their infection until they get tested for HIV. Testing for the infection must be increased in order to catch the infection as early as possible.

"The impact of late diagnosis is clearly demonstrated when you look at deaths among people with HIV - three out of five of HIV positive individuals that die are diagnosed too late to gain the most health benefits from their treatment, like increased life expectancy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:48 AM

Musket,
Keith's party political scare stories to attract votes for an obnoxious right wing party.

What are you implying and with what justification?
All I have done is provide some factual evidence that is freely available from HPA.

I am sorry if it exposed a lack of knowledge in some here, but that is no excuse for personal, ad hominem attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: John P
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 10:45 AM

Keith, please explain how health statistics and civil rights are connected.

Are you suggesting we deny marriage rights to people who are sick? Or to people who engage in risky behavior?

I don't think so. You are suggesting we deny civil rights to people who you don't like. The only reason you don't like them is because they do things in bed that are different than what you do in bed. That sort of deep interest in what other people are doing in bed is kind of sick. Aren't you embarrassed to display your perversion for the world to see?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 11:07 AM

I am not suggesting anything.
I just corrected some errors of fact that contributors have made.
No spin.
No interpretation.
Just hard facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: John P
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 12:13 PM

Keith, earlier you said:

Like everyone else they do not have the right to marry an underage person, a close relative or anyone of the same sex.

So, yes, you are suggesting something. Yes, you are deeply interested in what other people are doing in bed, interested enough to want to have laws about it. Please stop begging the question.

Why do you think gay people shouldn't have the right to marry?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 12:57 PM

I have not expressed an opinion about gay marriage.
What you quote was an obvious statement of fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM

Remember the days(not THAT long ago), when to get a marriage license, you needed first to get a blood test, to see if the 'applicants' has STD's??
Do you think that would fly today?...or would that be a perceived violation of somebody's rights?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 01:52 PM

Sorry. My mouse hiccupped before I was ready.

Will wonders never cease!?? A half-way intelligent thought from GoofuS! YES, it would be a good idea for everyone to get screened for STDs before getting a marriage license. Everybody!

####

Wrong end of the stick, Ake.

I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods, but around here, it was not us stupid, ill-informed liberals who started plumping for gay marriage, it was GAY MEN.

I don't think they would have started this whole thing if all they wanted was to have sex with as many other men as possible.

All kinds of people on this thread are manipulating HIV/AIDs figures to fit their own prejudices, which does not address the REAL issue. The right to self-determination.

Everybody here is screaming about MSM, but what about women having sex with other women?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 02:19 PM

To clarify:   as a general principle, it would be a good idea to be tested for STDs before getting married. But this should be for the information of the participants, and not a legal bar to marriage should the test of one or more of the parties be found positive.

Some STDs can be cured with a penicillin shot, and undoubtedly as research continues, soon HIV/AIDs as well will be eliminated with the appropriate treatment.

What will those who are opposed to same-sex marriage latch onto next?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 02:22 PM

""You post as if I had suggested otherwise.""

As is normally the case, Ipost at least twice before you respond, and then you select one sentence and go of at a tangent to answer a question you haven't been asked.

You no longer have any credibility.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 02:26 PM

""What you may not know is that control of HIV is only possible with an early diagnosis from a blood test.""

Just goes to show you do not read others' posts in their entirety, as this formed a part of the HPA statement I originally posted verbatim.

You make assumptions about posts you haven't even read, and every time you do that, you prove my points about your lack of credibility.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM

""just for what it's worth.....
...and BTW, Akenaton is indeed correct with his posts of the amount, disproportionate to the rest of society...but remember...THEY WERE TARGETED..as the Africans. In Africa, they put the virus in with the vaccinations, and distributed by WHO..World Health(?) Organization.
This is verifiable..go look.

Now the government wants to 'come to the rescue'...or so it appears...but it won't be the first time they've bullshitted a willing to be entertained audience!
""

Goofie, you are certifiable.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 02:34 PM

""The impact of late diagnosis is clearly demonstrated when you look at deaths among people with HIV - three out of five of HIV positive individuals that die are diagnosed too late to gain the most health benefits from their treatment, like increased life expectancy.""

And this is true of every serious or life threatening disease known to medicine.

So waht makes HIV special in this respect, other than your homophobia?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 02:38 PM

""Remember the days(not THAT long ago), when to get a marriage license, you needed first to get a blood test, to see if the 'applicants' has STD's??""

Not in the UK you didn't. Your government obviously is more prone to interfering.

Land of the Free?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 03:21 PM

And this is true of every serious or life threatening disease known to medicine.

So waht makes HIV special in this respect, other than your homophobia?

Ask HPA.
It was their quote.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:20 PM

From research article BMC.

Persons diagnosed with HIV infection had considerable excess mortality in comparison with the general population of the same age group and sex, despite wide availability of combined antiretroviral treatments. This excess mortality was largely due to deaths from AIDS-defining conditions, but other causes of death were also important, such as drug overdose or addiction, hepatic disease, non-AIDS-defining cancers, and cardiovascular disease. Excess mortality associated with HIV infection was observed in both men and women, and in persons with and without a history of injecting drug use.

Numerous studies have reported substantial reductions in mortality in HIV-infected persons after the introduction of combined antiretroviral treatments [21,22], the same as we found in Navarre [9]. Nonetheless, mortality in this group is still 14 times higher than in the general population after adjusting for sex and age group. Some studies have found somewhat lower excess mortality [23], but different results could be explained by the epidemiological characteristics of those infected, time of evolution of the infection, and whether or not persons who are not receiving antiretroviral treatment are included. Health authorities should be alert not only to those causes with relative excess mortality, but also to those that are responsible for the largest absolute number of deaths.

In the era of combined antiretroviral treatments, mortality among persons diagnosed with HIV has continued to decline, mainly in those without a history of injecting drug use [21], but is still a long way from reaching mortality levels similar to those in the general population [5].


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:35 PM

"In Africa, they put the virus in with the vaccinations, and distributed by WHO..World Health(?) Organization.
This is verifiable..go look."

Gfs, you'll never get most folks here to accept that. Most of them won't even accept the fact that we are all governed by shape-changing lizard creatures masquerading as humans.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 04:37 PM

Akenaton, you can, and have posted FACTUAL data, till cyberspace is filled with it....and the wannabe ideologue morons will not accept them..because it flies in the face of the fantasy bullshit world they live in...they deny scientific data..but claim, and misquote 'science' to back up their position.....and then call YOU names!..how fucking immature and stupid is that??...and no matter the amount of impartially gathered statistics you post, they are afraid you are promoting 'hate'..because they think you want them to stop sucking their thumbs...and God forbid, thumb-sucking is genetic! ..they can't 'help it'! ....Helplessly suicidal and proud of it!!
..and then they have the deluded excuse to think it is a 'civil right' issue, like segregation was...or at least argue that way.
methinks they just got in late in the game, and are trying to 'make up' for cowering away during the REAL civil rights issues....and try to sound like an important 'member' of the righteous civil rights gang...
...and they'll probably show up to a rally.....as soon as they dry out their sheets, from wetting their beds!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 05:03 PM

You no longer have any credibility.

Why. For quoting HPA and stating demonstrably true facts?
For that I get called a homophobe and a fascist.
Why are you people so nasty?
Why can you not make your case without making it personal?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 05:32 PM

HPA.
An estimated 40,100 (35,300-46,700) MSM were living with HIV in the UK in 2010, of whom 26% (16­-36%) were undiagnosed .
26% of 40 100 is 10 400 infected people receiving no treatment and probably passing it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:22 PM

It means NOTHING to them..THEY DON'T CARE!
What they have done is taken a 'political' position, unsubstantiated by anything factual...and then resorted to how the FEEL about it...in other words, they have adopted delusion, as reality.
Maybe soon they will be arguing, that homosexuals can mate with each other, bear offspring...so THEN it can be called 'genetic'! ...except they left out one small detail...then they will claim 'discrimination'!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:41 PM

""Why. For quoting HPA and stating demonstrably true facts?""

No, of course not!

For selectively quoting HPA and trying to play down the fact that they also said

""HIV is reduced to a "chronic manageable condition" with the prospect of "a near normal lifespan".

It's one of your regular devious actions to deny facts which take away the validity of your prejudices, which are many and varied.

As for the late diagnosis distraction, it also applies to Testicular Cancer, Bowel Cancer and many other conditions, so to try, as you have, to attach it to MSMs with HIV as an indictment of them, is disingenuous and dishonest, or to put it another way, par for the course with you.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM

And Goofie, you have already amply demonstrated your qualifications for a long stay in a nice rubber walled room.

I'd confine yourself to watching out for men in white coats if I were you (God forbid!).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:25 PM

Ye homophobes need to organize yerselves a circle-jerk on accounta yer present cluster-fuck is quite embarassing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:37 PM

"What they have done is taken a 'political' position, unsubstantiated by anything factual...and then resorted to how they FEEL about it...in other words, they have adopted delusion, as reality."

An excellent assessment of their position Sanity.....concise.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 07:47 PM

Sorry. Plenty of factual information. That you won't ACCEPT those facts doesn't mean they are any the less true.

Even if you don't like it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:01 PM

Don....you are being extremely silly, if you cannot understand the point Keith is making about late diagnosis and mortality, perhaps you would be in a more comfortable zone in another thread?

Of course late diagnosis also affects death rates in other serious illnesses, but you were attempting to contend that Aids was no longer viewed as a serious illness ....were you not?

The piece I posted stated that "mortality is 14 times higher in hiv positive persons, than in the general population, after adjustment for age and sex"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM

So, resident homophobes ake, Keith and Goofie, - what a bloody crew! :-) - take a leap. You are convinced you have the numbers. So let's move on now to your solutions. Quickly now, chaps, we've all had more than enough of the wheeling around of the figures. What do we do about it? And do be serious. I'm looking for whatever you suggest to have a really significant effect on infection rates. You've whinged enough about queers and we know you're scared of 'em. So what should we do? As individuals? As a nation?? Would you like me to make it easy for you and provide a multiple choice tick-list?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 08:58 PM

Ake, need I point out that this thread is about same-sex oriented people who wish to form stable relationships? Not about matters of AIDs and promiscuity!

Who's being silly now!??

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Dec 12 - 11:15 PM

I know gay / les couples that have longstabding permanet relationships. They enter into contractual commitments. It is ALL legal. Some have foster children. (Most blessedly....it is contract law ...... it is not a marrage (a holy sacrament established and sanctioned bt God)

On.a different note:
The fudge - packers have done quite well my be.

In the year 2000 ... I was forced to go to an ENT specialst.
All of my cures (hydrogen peroxix, olive oil, vinegar, alcohol, vitamine C liquid, bees wax candles, and several other concoctions) refused to remove the horric "itch " inside my left year.

I can only guess that the condition developed from my propensity to stick my head under water in communal "hot tubs " to listen to the bubble jets. He treated me for candidiasis aka yeast infection in the ear.

On the way out of his office ....crowded with sniveling, hacking senior citizens ... he explained that there was epidemic influenza in the area. He wrote a pre ription for Tamalu...and said to take it at the first sigh on a high fever...when the aches and pains and a fever of 103 set in.... I drug myself to.the pharamacy and laid my 75.00 usd down.

It Worked...along with five days off woeked.

ROTH IRA were still quite new. I like Buffet 's philosohy.

Here was a product that worked on influenza.
Millions and millions of people get influenza.
They get it for a week to ten days abd move on.

I purchased 200 shares in the ROTH IRA ... almost everything.
Since its purchase in 2000 the stock has had FIVE 2 for 1 splits...in a tax free acount.
Count them out on your fingers.

My investment strategy was off base...I figured on the universiality of influenza.
The GILD   in Gilead was the discovery of access to a Virus's vulnerabilty.

okThe key to their miraculus growth was not the five day treatment for flu.....but life long
antiviral
treatment for HIV / AIDS.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The wages of sin is death....and some of those wages have lined my pockets. I have known two who died from AIDES ....I know about eight more that are HIV position ( one a woman from an organ transplant)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 01:41 AM

Don Firth: "Sorry. Plenty of factual information. That you won't ACCEPT those facts doesn't mean they are any the less true."

Well post at least ONE!

Don Firth: "Ake, need I point out that this thread is about same-sex oriented people who wish to form stable relationships? Not about matters of AIDs and promiscuity!"

No Don you misunderstood the thread title..it doesn't say 'wish to form stable relationships' it says 'marriage'....read it..it's just up ^ there....and does marriage mean promiscuity??

I'll give you last word......:

Don Firth: "Who's being silly now!??"

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 02:16 AM

Please do not call me a homophobe because I point out factual errors in your posts.
Just check your facts before posting nonsense.
I have expressed no opinions at all, an not homophobic and have never said anything that could be so interpreted.
I do not even have an issue with gay marriage.

Don.
For selectively quoting HPA and trying to play down the fact that they also said
""HIV is reduced to a "chronic manageable condition" with the prospect of "a near normal lifespan".


I did not play it down at all.
You make that up.

I did point out that it requires early diagnosis by blood test, and that it is too late when symptoms appear.
I also pointed out that HPA calculates there are thousands of undiagnosed MSMs in UK whose chances are slipping away and who are spreading the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM

Why would we be interested in your tick list Steve?
You do not appear to understand the problem, so how should you be able to provide the solution?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:02 AM

Keith, you are a homophobe because you are deliberately highly selective and tendentious in the information you employ to make your case. You focus exclusively and obsessively on HIV/Aids as though it was the one infection that can be passed on by sexual contact, yet the truth is that it is in a tiny minority of overall STIs. You neither acknowledge that nor offer any solutions and you ignore my calls for better education. I can only conclude that you think education would have an such inconvenient effect on infection rates that it would weaken your case, so you'd rather not think about it. You are similarly highly selective about what you put forward about Israel/Palestine, completely blind to the plight of one side, so that makes you an Islamophobe too. You are what you are, by your fruits we know you, and bleating about it when you get called out is, frankly, pathetic.

Ake, I've given you my suggested solution ad nauseam. A good, moralising-free, religion-free programme of education for safe sex and personal relationships would reduce STIs, unwanted pregnancies and abortions dramatically. We do not have that in this country. What we have is piecemeal, arbitrary, non-compulsory and shambolic. Resources ploughed into that would reap dividends far beyond their money cost. I asked for your solution, but all I get from you is veiled moralising and, well, homophobia. Certainly nothing like a balanced view. Shed your fear of gay people and start to look at the situation a little more objectively.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Musket
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 07:08 AM

Fascinating debate here, if you are interested in HIV/AIDS and risk groups.

However, wouldn't it be nice if we had a thread about Gay marriage. Obviously, you couldn't weave it into a thread about STDs because it is a very different subject.





Unless you are a paranoid and / or bigoted individual who jump at any opportunity to see if anybody else shares your obnoxious take on society.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 08:49 AM

<>i>
Keith, you are a homophobe because you are deliberately highly selective and tendentious in the information you employ to make your case.
Completely untrue Steve.
I was not making a case.
I was not selective.
My posts were in response to, and in correction of, other people's posts and were purely factual.
No opinion expressed, tendentious or otherwise.

You people start name calling whenever your case is challenged and you have no answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 10:40 AM

And Steve, suppose I was homophobic (which I am not).
The facts I have posted would still be facts.
You could still not refute them.
What is the point of your name calling?
Just answer what I say instead of making personal attacks on me.
(of course, if you could you would)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 11:57 AM

Well Steve, I also gave you MY solution, which happens to also be the solution being "looked at" by HPA and CDC.

The only problem is they cannot say what they mean directly because of "rights/anti discrimination legislation."

In the developed countries, hiv/ aids has become mainly a disease of one "at risk" group,   MSM.

All other demographics have very low rates of infection and these rates are falling, while infection rates in MSM are very high and rising steadily.....this is not homophobia, but incontravertible fact.

I would first instigate a public enquiry to determine why infection rates are so high in this particular demographic, then start compulsory testing and contact tracing in at risk groups with high infection rates.
To test everyone in a given geographical area, regardless of their demographic is almost unworkable, too expensive and unlikely to be effective.

I would also ensure that the full facts regarding hiv was presented to the public. This is a serious issue and concealment....as seems to be favoured by most people will serve no one well....especially male homosexuals


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 04:12 PM

Goofy sez:
Don Firth: "Sorry. Plenty of factual information. That you won't ACCEPT those facts doesn't mean they are any the less true."

Well post at least ONE!
Okay, Goofy, here you are: If sexual orientation is not directly genetic, geneticists DO agree that it has a strong genetic component, and quite possibly goes down through the mother. One theory is that it is the timing of the infusion of hormones while the fetus is in utero.

Facts: it is NOT a simple choice, nor is it primarily a psychological problem, and as studies have shown, it cannot be cured with psychological counseling, psychotherapy, or so-called "aversion therapy." All attempts have either resulted in complete failure (recidivism), indeterminate result because the subject completely abstains from sexual activity of any kind, or in many cases, severe depression, and in a number of cases, suicide.

There are SEVERAL facts there for you to contemplate. If your "therapy" gets different results, then perhaps you should publish your results in the appropriate scientific journals, let them be subjected to peer review (rather than trying to bull US with them), and if you are indeed right, become highly esteemed among your fellow (ahem!) counselors.

Interesting sidelight:   the Republic of Indonesia consists of a large group of islands in Southeast Asia, northwest of Australia. The Indonesian archipelago has a population of some 238 million people. My wife's cousin made frequent trips there, particularly to Bali, and he once reported that because of the size of the population, the Indonesian government wanted to reduce the birth rate. So they started a program to encourage homosexual relationships!

Over a period of time, it was noted that it had NO EFFECT on the birth rate OR the number of same-sex relationships among the populace.

The FACT IS that sexual orientation is NOT a matter of CHOICE. In that respect, you are what you are and you cannot CHOOSE to be otherwise.

The whole world is currently suffering from a number of problems due to overpopulation. But that method of reducing the birth rate is an abject loser.

Those are FACTS, Goofy. Suck 'em up!!
Don Firth: "Ake, need I point out that this thread is about same-sex oriented people who wish to form stable relationships? Not about matters of AIDs and promiscuity!"

No Don you misunderstood the thread title..it doesn't say 'wish to form stable relationships' it says 'marriage'....read it..it's just up ^ there....and does marriage mean promiscuity??
Let me get this straight. From your comment just quoted above, it would appear that, although it is generally assumed by most people that marriage IMPLIES a stable relationship, i.e., faithful to one partner, you do not agree with this?

Let me point out that it is homosexuals, both gay men and lesbians, who initiated the campaigns for same-sex marriage—NOT we "fuzzy-headed Liberals." So it is quite logical to assume that by participating in a marriage ceremony, either in a church, or a judge's chambers, or justice of the peace's office, they are making a declaration that they wish to form what is intended to be the stable relationship which is known as "marriage."

If you do NOT think that this is what "marriage" means, then if you are married or intend to get married, does your wife or intended wife KNOW that you do not believe that "marriage" means devoting yourself to one person?
I'll give you last word......:

Don Firth: "Who's being silly now!??"
Obviously, you!

Don Firth

P. S.   I'll leave you with Carl Sandburg's "Eleventh Commandment:
Thou shalt not commit nincompoopery.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Dec 12 - 11:54 PM

I have known those ... who from even the youngest of age ... have a "predisposition " to theft.


And known others that appear to have an adaptation to adultry.

Still otbers prone to swear a blue streak at the slightess provocation...and those to continualy curse God for their misery. More than once my path has crossed those of a murderous nature.

Are we as a society...to "ebrace " such of our fellow men and toss their "faults " lightly
.... because they were "born " with a predisposition.   I am sure a habitual theaf has different scan of their cerebral cortext than a "mother Teresa.

Why accept the lowest common denominator?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

The miracle of rebirth is that one is one is NOT condemned to follow a path of unrightousness from birth to the grave.   We DO have free will and salvation...through Grace.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Dec 12 - 06:12 AM

""An excellent assessment of their position Sanity.....concise.""

Ake the sex nazi thinks Goofie is sane.

Now I know he can be dismissed out of hand.

Don T.


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