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BS: 'Gay marriage' question

GUEST,Eliza 19 Dec 12 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 12 - 03:15 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Dec 12 - 04:00 PM
GUEST 19 Dec 12 - 04:25 PM
Don Firth 19 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 12 - 04:55 PM
Don Firth 19 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 05:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 12 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Dec 12 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 12 - 09:53 PM
Musket 20 Dec 12 - 03:58 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 12 - 06:26 AM
bubblyrat 20 Dec 12 - 08:38 AM
Amos 20 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM
akenaton 20 Dec 12 - 01:42 PM
frogprince 20 Dec 12 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Musket sans cookie 20 Dec 12 - 03:45 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Dec 12 - 05:33 PM
gnu 20 Dec 12 - 05:47 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 12 - 06:20 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 12 - 06:35 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 12 - 06:56 PM
bobad 20 Dec 12 - 07:02 PM
akenaton 20 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,TIA 20 Dec 12 - 07:26 PM
Bill D 20 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 12 - 08:19 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 12 - 08:26 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 12 - 08:27 PM
gnu 20 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 12 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,TIA 20 Dec 12 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Dec 12 - 01:12 AM
GUEST 21 Dec 12 - 01:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 12 - 03:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 12 - 03:51 AM
akenaton 21 Dec 12 - 03:56 AM
Musket 21 Dec 12 - 04:00 AM
akenaton 21 Dec 12 - 04:05 AM
Megan L 21 Dec 12 - 05:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Dec 12 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Dec 12 - 06:04 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Dec 12 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 12 - 06:17 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Dec 12 - 06:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 12 - 06:22 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 02:37 PM

gfS, I respect your feelings about being a maths teacher, the efforts you made to interest your students, and your obvious enthusiasm for the task. But if you did indeed engage their interest and concentration, then not one of them was suffering from an Attention Deficit Disorder, by very definition. I have taught literally thousands of pupils over a long period, and in that time have come across only half a dozen at most who had serious disorders. They could not and would not have been able to sustain calm behaviour in lessons. I had a good reputation for quiet and effective classroom discipline, but there are some unfortunate children who are mentally unwell and need intervention by medical professionals. I cannot comment on whether this should include drugs, Ritalin or otherwise, as that is beyond my competence. By the way, (a propos of nothing) why do you feel the need to type so often in such vehement capital letters? Do you have Posting Emphasis Disorder?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 03:15 PM

Eliza: "Do you have Posting Emphasis Disorder?"

Eliza, I've been told that using capitals is like yelling...but also being a writer, (even a screenplay or two) I use them as emphasizing a word. Actually, when I post this stuff, I'm usually in a rather pleasant mood...and not as the knot-heads have portrayed me...as I've hit a lot of sensitive nails on the head. I noticed you wrote, "But if you did indeed engage their interest and concentration, then not one of them was suffering from an Attention Deficit Disorder, by very definition. I have taught literally thousands of pupils over a long period, and in that time have come across only half a dozen at most who had serious disorders."........I AGREE <--(see capitals?) 'Thousands of pupils..and "and in that time have come across only half a dozen at most who had serious disorders."
That is what I was saying!...and a lot of people, (lazy, selfish 'parents'), write off the results of their bad parenting, as the child having ADD!!!...The child gets treated like it, and told that he has it, which, of course, is great for their self esteem,(sarcastically speaking), and the child gets free reign to daydreaming, boredom, and NOT motivated to actually LEARN something, if he/she doesn't 'want' to....THAT is changeable...and teachers who actually give a damn, can do it!..once they can dance around the 'politically correct' dance music!....Some methods of caring have NOT surrendered to eloquent excuse making....and that begins with our own personal lives!!!....not what 'religion' you get your 'fire insurance' at, not what political faction you like to identify with, not what bullshit we embrace..but actually placing in one's consciousness, to take it upon ourselves, to be personally responsible, for our actions or lack of them, and to use how we are affected, by caring for ourselves, to care for others....and know, as a teacher, that the care and effort(or lack of it), will effect someone for the rest of their lives...why not for the better?...or better yet, the best!
I think you, Eliza, from your posts, previous as well, that you DO care, and ARE a thinking caring person...so if all I am doing is re-enforcing that in you, well, so be it...and BTW, REGARDS!!!!

Don, (satirically)..Once again, your post includes some sort of facts on which you base your opinions. Can you get constructive?...instead of your petty attempts at insult, when you run out of the facts that you aren't posting...............because there aren't any!
Careful!..he's so sensitive.
A psychotic sophist!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:00 PM

So, let's see now, Guffo. You are a psychologist in practice. You are a mathematician. You are now a writer who writes screenplays. You are a liar. One of those is true. Another thing that is true is that you are a charlatan. Another thing that is true is that your brain is addled for about 23 hours out of every 24, for reasons best known to yourself, and I feel I may be being generous there. Readers, check out his pygmy whale yarn on the Science thread for a touch of the true Guffers! Anything else you'd like to tell us? Were you Buzz Aldrin's mentor in his Apollo days? Did you star in Titanic? Do you tune the Rolling Stones' guitars before each gig? Have you shagged Princess Anne? Hey, c'mon, man. Tell all in one big post! My mouth opens in awe at every one of your posts so often that I think I'm turning into a trout!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:25 PM

Don't forget being a "pioneer" of some kind of music or other (I forget the genre), and a composer of film scores...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM

And on the seventh day, He rested.

Goofoid's post just above (19 Dec 12 - 03:15 PM) is a graphic example of the reason I don't take anything he says seriously. I've met the type before.

If you expressed an interest in music, he'd won an Emmy. In acting, he'd won an Oscar. In writing, he had nine best-sellers (under nine different pen-names, of course). He wrote movie scores (move ovar, John Williams!), he was an ordained psychotherapist (Freud was a dabbler), he was a brilliant mathematician (He taught Einstein how to balance his checkbook), you name it, he not only did it, but he taught it at Harvard.

He would mention that he was far too modest to mention his Nobel and his Pulitzer. . . ?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 04:55 PM

Well, it is true, that I've written a screenplay, was a counselor, and have composed music..which Don, you have heard, as others on here have as well....and was well-received.
I never wanted particularly to be a counselor, and took psych for other reasons, however, along the way, I got pretty fucking good at it!..and the 'pioneer' in the type of music I have worked on is called 'idea-logic'...which is the ability to create visual images with the music and frequencies, and tell a story, cause the listener to experience it...and not use one word!...and be accurate...that, BTW, is part due to being sensitive to certain things common within human nature, and having the psych background to define it clearer.
Just a few posts ago, it might have been DonT, or someone, pointed out that my posts seem to bring out the hypocrisies, of many other posters...this also is a bi-product of psych education..because in sessions, that's what an adept counselor does....he can see beyond the complaints and perspectives of those being counseled....and as a side note, "Sometimes a well placed question can change a life!"
The fact that you couldn't see that, puts your ability to connect dots at serious question.....and that, my dear friend, is the bi-product of a middleman for 'bad science'..and 'bad information'...
Like they say, "Try not to believe your own press!"

Until then....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM

Your halo doesn't prevent you from being dead wrong about the issue at hand. And as I've mentioned before, the APA says conversion therapy is worse than useless. I'd believe them a helluva lot quicker than I'd believe a pathelogical bullshitter.

Over and out. Arguing with you is an egregious waste of bandwidth.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:24 PM

OK, I gather from recent exchanges that no weddings between people on this thread are gonna happen soon, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:40 PM

""Just a few posts ago, it might have been DonT, or someone,""

Well it wasn't! If I'd been talking about hypocrisy, it would have been yours I was talking about mate.

With a memory like that, you might want to check with a doctor whether it's early onset Alzheimers.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 05:45 PM

I never knew that Walter Mitty was a real person, but here he is, alive and well and posting his pseudo life story on the Cat under his alter ego name Guest from Sanity.

Actually, that wouldn't be early onset, because, if you've done half of what you claim, you're at least 120 years old.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 06:19 PM

The great thing, Guffster, is that your entertaining stupidity has managed to unite a bunch of people who have until now been prowling warily around reach other. At last, we have a common purpose in that we all enjoy, with equal relish, your status as a complete bloody laughing stock.

Howya, Don?! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 12 - 09:53 PM

Well, I didn't catch who it was...do I have to?..to shut you up?..and if I pull it up, will you shut up??
Steve, I wouldn't be too quick to call anyone a 'liar' with your track record!...and..the fact is...everything I said was the truth...which tells me all three of your discernment sucks...which is why you believe and promote the horseshit that you do....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Musket
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:58 AM

I doubt the Gay marriage question gets resolved elsewhere either, including in those places charged with looking at it. After all, if Mudcat can be derailed into this (interesting nonetheless) Goofus versus sanity debate, politicians should have no problem filibustering the actual debate...

Sad really.

Exposing Goofus's absurd ramblings is too easy, and not even sport. Methinks the real issue is those who hide behind a cloak (vestment) of pious respectability in order to spew their bigoted ranting and use their "I work for God" status to inflict their twisted take on life on others?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:26 AM

...and..the fact is...everything I said was the truth...

You write terrible English. Your pronouncements are utterly imprecise and inaccurate most of the time. Your attitude to the knowledge base underlying your alleged medical discipline is cavalier in the extreme, often reeking of received wisdom and half-knowledge. I don't know that there is no God but I haven't seen any evidence for one, and I can muster plenty of evidence that suggests he probably doesn't exist. I don't know whether you've written screenplays, are a good mathematician or have practised psychology, but I've seen no evidence for your ability to manage any of them. Just your say-so. And you yourself provide abundant evidence that you could well be making it all up as you go along. Entertaining, but sad in a way.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:38 AM

The problem is , Eliza , that Gay people are are trampling on peoples' Human Rights to the extent that they seem to be on some sort of Crusade . If I ran a guesthouse , B&B, or small hotel,and I felt uncomfortable with the idea of two gay men (or women) sleeping together ,then I would make plain my feelings on the subject . As the law now stands ,sadly ,I would be prosecuted for that reaction ,even if it was on religious grounds . However, if I were a MUSLIM , then the British Government would bend over backwards ( no comedians please ) to UPHOLD the sanctity and validity of my religious objections . Not fair really , is it ?? And can gay MUSLIMS get married ?? I don't think so ! So why are you all not protesting about THAT , then ??


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 11:25 AM

Consummation is a non-issue here, I believe. It is an issue, of course, to the individuals if they enter marriage without having sex, expecting to have it, and find they cannot. But the reasonable thing is to dissolve the marriage by common consent. It becomes an issue when marriage is devised as some other kind of mechanism, such as social control of reproduction, but this is really a legacy of the medieval Church and should be washed out of our social policies.

Marriage is no thing other than a postulated relationship, generated by two individuals sharing an agreement. If they are wise, the agreement continues to be generated despite the vicissitudes of life and living, and the marriage survives. This is a Good Thing especially if we are talking about child-rearing marriages, because growing up is confusing enough in our madcap world. But if the agreement dries up and cannot be regenerated mutually, it doesn't make a lot of sense to encumber the dissolution with arbitrary categories and weird definitions.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 01:42 PM

I stopped posting on this thread a couple of days ago, but just loooked back to see if anything interesting or informative had been added on the subject.
Of course nothing had, but what a disgusting spectacle to see half a dozen members resort to name calling and bullying in the short time I have been away......and you have the affrontery to call yourselves liberal? You are nothing short of a playground gang.....grow up.

While visiting a relative in hospital, i picked up an "information" leaflet produced bt the UK National Health Service, a masterpiece of the misinformation which I referred to further up the thread.

It takes the form of a quiz, supposedly to boost awareness and give the facts.You have to answer the following questions, the answers being supplied at the bottom.
1 you can get hiv from sharing a cup.(true or false)
2there is no cure for hiv.(true or false)
3hiv only effects gay men.(true or false)
4there is no specific symptom for hiv (true or false)
5if you are under the age of consent you must have your parents permission to use a condom.(true or false)
6 50% of people affected by hiv are women.(true or false)
7 over 40 million people worldwide are living with hiv.(true or false)
8 hiv is the virus that causes aids. (true or false)
9 hiv is mostly transmitted by heterosexual sex. (true or false)
10 SE Asia has the second most cases of hiv. (true or false)

Answers 1-f 2-t 3-f 4-t 5-f 6-t 7-t 8-t 9-t 10-t


Leaflets like these and the simplistic message they contain, are the reason that so many people in the UK and the US are in such complete ignorance of the true dangers of aids and the demographics which carry the highest rates of infection.
To baldly state that 50% of people with hiv worldwide are women, is meaningless, when over 60% of new infections in UK/US are among male homosexuals.

Male homosexual practice and the promiscuity associated with it is more dangerous and unhealthy than incest or many other types of sexual behaviour and as such should not be promoted by legislation like same sex "marriage"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:33 PM

"Male homosexual practice and the promiscuity associated with it... should not be promoted by legislation like same sex "marriage""

Tell me that you don't realize that this implies that significantly more men will engage in homosexual promiscuity if same sex marriage is legalized.

"Hey, dude, they just legalized same sex marriage; that gives me an idea; let's get married, and then mess around with other guys a lot; I bet it will be more fun than this heterosexual stuff!"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 03:45 PM

Mmmm NHS figures based on public health data from HPA and WHO or Akenaton's irrational fears boiled down into stringing random words together?

Tricky one that.

Bubblyrat. You can pre judge all you like. Nobody stops you in your own home. However a licenced business is open to all regardless of Creed, gender, race or choice of partner.

If you think Muslims get preferential treatment I suggest reading The Daily M*il? They pander to your illogical claptrap so you might make lots of new friends there.

Fact 1. The percentage of Muslim offenders in prison is far higher than the increase in numbers in the general population. So special treatment seems to be more custodial sentences..

Many gay Muslims are oppressed for their faith but as many find, here in The UK there are Imams who will bless them at their civil partnership events.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:33 PM

bubblyrat, minority groups fighting for equality and parity often do become strident and, understandably form a Crusade. It happened with women's struggle for Suffrage, black people's plea to end racism in USA, the fight against apartheid in S Africa and Women's Liberation. Without putting themselves in front of the media their causes wouldn't be heard. I have a struggle in my house with my Muslim husband's attitude to gay people. He cannot accept their rights to live their lives as they wish. He's basically homophobic and very condemnatory. I'm very glad to hear that some Imams are becoming more enlightened. It will all take time, but I hope attitudes will eventually turn around and tolerance and acceptance win in the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 05:47 PM

Same shit, different day. 600+ posts? Intolerance and ignorance cannot be stomped out with logic and a plea for compassion for fellow humans. I base this on empirical analysis, which is... 600+ posts here and countless others over the years can't do it so why bother?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:20 PM

To baldly state that 50% of people with hiv worldwide are women, is meaningless, when over 60% of new infections in UK/US are among male homosexuals.

You yourself are a positive mine of misinformation. You neglect to tell us that HIV/Aids is massively more prevalent in certain third world countries, especially in Africa, than here, where fewer than one in 600 are HIV-positive. It is not possible to view correctly the figures you choose to selectively provide unless they are set in that context.

Male homosexual practice and the promiscuity associated with it is more dangerous and unhealthy than incest or many other types of sexual behaviour and as such should not be promoted by legislation like same sex "marriage"

God, where does one begin. First, and most disgracefully, you reveal your homophobic instincts by tendentiously juxtaposing homosexual activity unfavourably with incest. I suggest that you cannot provide statistical support for your claim and that you typed what you did to cast homosexuality in as bad a light as possible short of actually saying that homosexuals eat people's babies. Second, promoting gay marriage will not make homosexuals have sex more often. That's clearly what you intend to convey when you say that homosexual practice should not be promoted by legislation. Third, well let's have some suggested solutions from you. You didn't like that leaflet, eh, even though it was giving out essential information. Well doesn't that just remind me of the Catholic church being opposed to contraception and abortion and at the same time being opposed to proper sex education. You would like to ban certain kinds of behaviour you disapprove of whilst limiting information about its potential consequences. It all smacks of closet moralising, and that is a damn sight more unhealthy than any of those practices you're so fond of condemning. You want evidence? Ban contraception in Africa and keep people ignorant in Africa, a la Catholic church, and you get a massive Aids epidemic and a massive abortion rate and massive infant/mother mortality, just to add spice to the endemic poverty. Don't you think that good education for relationships and sexual health would solve the problem you think we have? Some good, no-nonsense, non-moralising practical advice? I do, but I keep coming up against attitudes like yours which mix faux-morality with the quest for ignorance. Well, I suppose it does work, and you can always say that you told us so.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:35 PM

Musket....Here are the correct hiv figures for the UK.
Of course, as they are supplied by your organisation of choice and you profess to work in the field, feel free to misrepresent them as you have done in the past.

News Archives   


Volume 6 No 16; 20 April 2012

HPR Home | Archives | 2011 news

New HIV and AIDS diagnoses and deaths in the United Kingdom in 2011


Expanded HIV testing in high prevalence areas: HPA resource published


Public consultation on the role of the health workforce in tackling health inequalities




New HIV and AIDS diagnoses and deaths in the United Kingdom in 2011

New data – based on surveillance reports received as at end-December 2011 – indicate that a total of 5,600 people (4,050 men and 1,550 women) were diagnosed with HIV in the United Kingdom in 2011 [1]. This provisional figure is likely to rise to 6,150 after adjustment for reporting delays (see table). The 2011 total is a slight decrease on 2010 and continues the year-on-year decline from the peak of 7,820 diagnoses reported in 2005.

For the first time since 1998, the number of new HIV diagnoses in men who have sex with men (MSM) has surpassed new diagnoses in heterosexuals. Half of those diagnosed in 2011 (48%, 3,000) probably acquired their infection through sex between men and 47% (2,890) through heterosexual contact (data adjusted for undetermined risk) (see figure). The overall decline in new diagnoses is largely due to fewer reported cases among heterosexuals who probably acquired their infection abroad.

The number of new diagnoses among MSM in 2011 (2,475) is expected to reach 3,000 when all reports are received. This continues the slow but steady increase observed over the past decade. The majority of MSM diagnosed in 2011 are white (84%) and acquired their infection within the UK (84%). Analysis of data from each of the related surveillance systems strongly suggest that the continuing high annual numbers of new HIV diagnoses in MSM have been driven by an underlying high and unchanged HIV incidence.

The number of new diagnoses among those infected heterosexually within the UK has remained steady at around 1,100 per year since 2008. In contrast, the number of new diagnoses among heterosexuals infected abroad has halved since 2006, from 3,530 in 2008 to 1,850 in 2011. This is largely due to a decrease in new diagnoses among persons from sub-Saharan Africa.

Continued low numbers of HIV diagnoses were made in people who inject drugs (PWID) (140) and persons infected through other exposures (120), such as mother to child transmission and recipients of blood/tissue products. All infections acquired through receipt of blood/tissue products diagnosed since 2002 were acquired outside of the UK, including the 21 diagnosed in 2011.

A total of 375 deaths and 350 AIDS diagnoses among HIV-infected persons in 2011 were reported, and this number is likely to increase as further reports are received.


New HIV diagnoses by exposure group and year of diagnosis: United Kingdom, 2002 – 2011    2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011**
Probable exposure group * Sex between men Adjusted 1980 2170 2460 2640 2650 2880 2770 2800 2880 3000
Observed 1955 2137 2421 2609 2598 2811 2640 2612 2681 2475
Hetero-sexual - likely country of infection All Adjusted 4050 4800 4900 4830 4430 4110 4120 3470 3180 2890
Observed 4004 4723 4829 4763 4347 4004 3919 3240 2952 2350
In the UK Adjusted 530 640 760 830 900 1010 1080 1070 1040 1040
Observed 402 490 595 660 701 733 774 766 744 572
Abroad Adjusted 3530 4160 4140 4000 3530 3100 3040 2400 2140 1850
Observed 3526 4150 4072 3906 3396 2887 2644 2157 1814 1244
Injecting drug use Adjusted 140 170 160 190 200 180 190 160 150 140
Observed 133 167 153 185 195 178 183 147 140 102
Other exposure groups Adjusted 170 200 200 160 180 160 140 170 150 120
Observed 168 197 192 162 178 157 131 154 135 86
Not reported 77 110 110 105 134 182 347 431 448 581
Total 6337 7334 7705 7824 7452 7332 7220 6584 6356 6150
* Adjusted by distributing proportionally those reports for which exposure group is not reported.
** Adjusted for reporting delay.
Note: The table shows actual numbers for the observed values. Numbers presented in the text are rounded.


Over 3000 new cases amongst MSM represents an epidemic, an epidemic caused by either homosexual practice or extreme promiscuity.
According to HPA, there are approx 422000 MSM between 15 and 45 in the UK male population.....There are regional variations to the rate,
7.2 in London, 3.6 ENG and Wales, 1.9 Scotland.....this converts to an overall rate of just over 4%
There are over 40000 MSM living with hiv/aids in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:45 PM

I did not like the leaflet because it attempted to conceal the facts.
Facts, as you rightly say, it had in its posession.
It makes no sense to say that the largest number of hiv cases worldwide are among heteros, when over 60% of cases in the NHS area are amongst a small sexual minority.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 06:56 PM

Steve....Could you please show me where you got the figure of less than one MSM in six hundred carry the virus?

The HPA figures which I quoted say 40000 in just over half a million are living with hiv/aids.
Over 3200 is being added to this figure annually as new infections are logged.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: bobad
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 07:02 PM

Ake, if a cure for AIDS was found would you then be OK with "gay marriage"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 07:12 PM

Bobad.....I have answered that question several times on this and other threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 07:26 PM

Still no answer to this one:
akenaton - the lowest HIV rates in the world are amongst lesbians. Do you oppose same sex marriage for lesbians?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 07:39 PM

"I have answered that question several times on this and other threads."

We seem to carelessly forget... a one word reminder will do.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:19 PM

There are 96000 people in the UK who are HIV-positive. The population of the UK is over 60 million. 60 million divided by 96000 yields less than one in 600. 599 Brits in every 600 are HIV-negative. Rough numbers, of course, but that doesn't alter the obstinate fact that HIV is quite rare here, unlike in many African nations, in which it is massively more common, and in which infections among heterosexual vs infections in homosexual people wouldn't raise much of an eyebrow.

You like to piddle around with numbers, so here's another bit. 375 died from Aids in a year. So you have less chance of dying from Aids in any given year than you have of becoming a lottery millionaire. I suppose that, given good education in safe sex, your chances would be even more remote. Would you like to tell us how many gay men never get HIV?

I'm not trying to play down what is a clear issue, but you are definitely trying to play it up. Going from your history on the topic of homosexuality, it isn't difficult to work out why.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:26 PM

And, for clarity, I haven't concerned my self with statistics for "MSM" which I hadn't even heard of 'til last week. What I said the first time I mentioned figures was simply: And we have now had HIV/Aids with us for well over 30 years that we know of, yet the number of HIV-positive people in the UK is under 100,000, fewer than one in 600 of the population (and by no means all will develop Aids).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:27 PM

myself even


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 08:32 PM

"I have answered that question several times on this and other threads."

So... you took the time to type all of that when you could have typed "Yes" or "No"?

I think you are queer.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 09:46 PM

I've wondered. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Dec 12 - 11:40 PM

I have waited years (literally) for simple answers to simple questions.
Do not hold your breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:12 AM

Steve Shaw: "And, for clarity, I haven't concerned my self with statistics for "MSM" which I hadn't even heard of 'til last week."

Responsibility at work!

Thank you, Akenaton, for attempting to enlighten, those who don't care anyway.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 01:56 AM

Aw, cripe, get off Steve's case!

Not EVERYONE has heard that the acronym "MSM," as it is being used here, stands for "Men having Sex with Men." Considering that "MSM" also stands for
Marine Safety Manual
Manhattan School of Music
Missouri School of Mines
MaAfee System Management
Minnesota Science Museum
and some 80 other designations, there are lots of people in the REAL world who are not INSTANTANEOUSLY aware that "MSM" also, in THESE discussions, designates a type of sexual relationship.

SHEESH!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:34 AM

Steve, HIV is rare in Britain taken as a single population.
The prevalence among MSMs is comparable to that of The Great Plague of 1666.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:51 AM

err, 1665.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 03:56 AM

Tia...There seems to be no heath problem amongst lesbians, but there are other grounds for opposing the legislation which I have detailed above.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Musket
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:00 AM

You all seem to be missing the point.

The only way to get Akenaton to justify his conclusions is to wrap them in a request for data from his huge database he edits before publishing..

Hey Queer basher! Yes you! It's Name the Year Time. From the documents you are quoting from, have a look and tell us the last time somebody in The UK who was diagnosed HIV + and under NHS care developed AIDS.

If you really want, you might wish to draw a conclusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 04:05 AM

Steve....Of course i am trying to illustrate the issue, the facts are being deliberately concealed from the UK public.
How many people do you think know that HIV/aids has reached epidemic levels in the UK?
The leaflet I mentioned earlier is a typical example of concealment.

The whole sorry mess is a symptom of the idiocy of many parts of the Human Rights Act. We have been deprived of our voice and our motivation.......Think I'll start voting for UKIP!!   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 05:37 AM

From looking at last years STD figures single sex couplings are far from the problem aparently hetrosexual young men should get a condom welded on at pubertyand be taught that there are certain things one should not share with the entire world.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM

""Male homosexual practice and the promiscuity associated with it is more dangerous and unhealthy than incest or many other types of sexual behaviour and as such should not be promoted by legislation like same sex "marriage"""

Homophobic nonsense.

Why does HIV infect more men in one place and more women in another?

PURE CHANCE! The demographic in which the virus first made itself known depends entirely upon the gender of the index cases. And since homo and hetero sexuals rarely intermix, it remains disproportionately in that gender in which it was first identified, since, once it is identified people start to take precautions against it, so the opposite gender doesn't, as a rule, catch up.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:00 AM

""Same shit, different day. 600+ posts? Intolerance and ignorance cannot be stomped out with logic and a plea for compassion for fellow humans. I base this on empirical analysis, which is... 600+ posts here and countless others over the years can't do it so why bother?""

What do you suggest we do, Gnu, bow out and let the internet world get the impression that this all embracing international folk music forum is actually a racist, misogynist, homophobic and religious fundamentalist cesspit?

Not if it takes 6,000 posts or 60,000, or...........

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:04 AM

Well, the annual rate of newly-diagnosed STIs in the UK is not far short of half a million. Almost 150,000 new cases of chlamydia per annum, for example. Kind of puts the relatively tiny number of new HIV diagnoses in the shade, eh, ake? Never mind banning gay sex. Let's just ban sex! This context makes your unhealthy focus on homosexual activity all the more worrying.

Don't you think that a good, effective programme of education for relationships and safe sex, free from moralising, free from clergymen, and not just at school either, would do a damn sight more good than all this thinly-disguised homophobia? That what we do not currently have? I do have to keep asking, you know.

How many people do you think know that HIV/aids has reached epidemic levels in the UK?

Hmm, dark and scary talk. I await your evidence. Please include a definition of "epidemic".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:09 AM

The prevalence among MSMs is comparable to that of The Great Plague of 1666.

Nice one, Keith. So we are now aligning that great evil gay sex with the great evil bubonic plague as well as with the great evil incest. Any more offers? Anyone like to align gay sex with cannibalism?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:17 AM

No Steve.
You put that interpretation on it.
You made the point that HIV is rare.
I made the point that it is in epidemic proportions in high risk groups, specifically MSMs.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:20 AM

""How many people do you think know that HIV/aids has reached epidemic levels in the UK?""

That has to be the biggest stretch yet!

If every male homosexual in the country were HIV positive (which would statistically mean possibly half developing full blown AIDS) it wouldn't qualify as an epidemic. There simply aren't enough cases in a 65 million population to warrant that definition, unless of course there is massive infection in the heterosexual majority.

The worst you can say with any credibility is that HIV is endemic, but that wouldn't suit Ake's agenda because it would also be true of almost every country in the world, and overall, as one might expect, a fifty fifty split Homo to Hetero.

That is definitely NOT what Ake wants to hear.

I'm afraid he was born 7 decades too late and in the wrong country.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay marriage' question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 12 - 06:22 AM

It can and does qualify as an epidemic within that community Don.


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