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porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed

Donuel 12 Sep 12 - 06:38 AM
catspaw49 12 Sep 12 - 06:51 AM
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Subject: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 06:38 AM

A California video of lewd sex by Mohammed was promoted as by FL Rev of Koran burner infamy was posted on You Tube and was viewed 6000 times before Someone dubbed it into Arabic, which sparked a riot which was repelled with live ammo causing a Right wing islamic group to storm the Begazi Embassy in Libya resulting in the death of the US ambassador and possibly his staff. Riots are also in Cairo for the same video.

A State Dept resopnse was developed to tone down the violence but events moved too quickly and are now blamed as a WH apology by Mitt Romney.


The formula of hate+ignorance over religion = death
The equation of hate moves faster than truth again.


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 06:51 AM

How technology can cause an International incident and how a jackass can prove he knows nothing.........


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 07:39 AM

The Arab Winter vs The Arab Spring?

As the US ambassador and staff tried to flee, an RPG was fired into his car. He was a very young man who was proud that the US had intervened just enough to save Bengazi from the genocide promised by Ghadafi.

This is a tragedy in 4 acts in which FOX is already portraying Obama as apologizing to Islamic religious defenders with the comment regarding a religious free speech statement that was not approved.

All the US right wing Lonesome Roads talking heads will blame Obama for all the Jack Asses in this tragedy of terrors.


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 07:43 AM

If you know the dog bites...


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: bobad
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:00 AM

The extremes of Western freedom meet the extremes of Middle Eastern religious fanaticism - murder ensues. Is anyone surprised?


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:01 AM

Surely the U.S. - knowing their history - are going to do something to "avenge" this attack on their sovereign territory - not to mention the slaying of their Ambassador ( I don't imagine many US ambassadors have been slain).
Watch this space!


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:23 AM

I wonder how this asshole would respond if someone were to post an analogous video of Christian religious figures, say Christ and Mary Magdalene.


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: GUEST,marks (on the road)
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 09:41 AM

Thats been done - remember a film called "The Last Temptation of Christ" from a few years ago.
No riots or murders that I can recall.
Big yawn as a matter of fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 09:53 AM

No "yawns" from me. This incident is alarming and its not over.

I hate advocating censorship but this is a strong case for it. The producer of this film and those who distributed it should all be called to account for their actions. It's just the kind of inflammatory film that will undermine our international efforts to reach out to Moslems the world over. Oh and, yes, the people who led the mobs against our embassies should also be brought to justice.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 09:58 AM

Violence is inexcusable.

Incitement to violence is even more so...

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-12/news/os-terry-jones-movie-embassy-bombing-20120912_1_florida-pastor-islam-protests


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 10:13 AM

Once again religion causes an unnecessary death.
How many million is that now?


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Subject: BS: Romney = Bush = Hothead...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 10:21 AM

Well, Romney has inserted foot in mouth yet again in accusing Obama of making excuses for the people who murdered our Libyan diplomats, something that Obama clearly hasn't done...

Romney is just another hothead that says whatever comes into his mind - think WMDs - and then we have yet another Republican/hothead war on out hands...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: porn+FL Rev koran burner=amb.killed
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 10:36 AM

Charley, I agree. You, too, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 11:01 AM

Ok.....it's time for Terry Jones to be arrested.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 11:11 AM

Under the Constitution, the jackasses who made the film in question cannot be arrested for making it, but a case could made - conceivably - that they are guilty of incitement to riot and the reckless endangerment (and possibly worse) of American citizens.

But I'm no lawyer, and maybe nothing can be done.

In that case, some new laws are needed. Freedom of speech under the Constitution has never been absolute, and from what I gather from CNN, the film may have been made explicitly to outrage the Muslim world, like shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

Which, for the benefit of our overseas friends, *is* illegal.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 11:19 AM

I changed my mind.... it's time for Terry Jones to be given a free ticket to Cairo, so he can 'explain' directly to those ingrate Muslims the error of their ways. I'm sure that with a nice soapbox on a street corner, things would be clarified to everyone's satisfaction.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 12:07 PM

-FOX news reporter to Obama at conclusion of his remarks on the tragedy. "Mr President is this an act of war is this an act of war ?"


As the President said this is case for justice to be done.


Libya should prosecute the killers, We should not start wars to validarte Rev Terry.

To test Pres Obama on this matter would be as foolish as a Somali pirate attempting to board Air Force 1.

As this whole incident underscores, there is no limit on foolishness.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM

Just so you know what it is we are talking about, here is the trailer (rather long) for the movie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmodVun16Q4&feature=youtu.be


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 12:14 PM

After watching, it is well worth considering EBarnacle's question above.
Imagine the outrage (by Rev. Terry, plus OReilly, Hannity, and thousands of others) over a similar depiction of Jesus.
The violence is not justified. But neither is such a clear (and intentional) provocation.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 12:31 PM

That the worst our country has to offer are the FL hate preacher types is a testament of how great our country is for the seperation of church and state.

Sadly the fanatical religious muslim versions of our preacher fire RPG into the cars of their most true hard working allies.

The preacher and congregation should be made to pay resitution to the families of the fallen.



The dark side in me still growls 'fuckem if they can't take a joke' and wishes harm on the Islamic killers. But we have had enough killers in our longest war/crusade in America's history.


I've had my cartoons banned in countries like Afghanistan and China by those governments. Should our State Department now have a censor board 'The dept of Peace' to prevent the mental equivalent of a un civilized Christian Pit Bull from inciting world war ?

And what about the fuck wit Arab who dubbed some porn in Arabic so the average moron could be inflamed?


If Al Quada starts dubbing Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs, Hannity, Levin, Slaughter, Brit Hume,Paul Ryan, Mitt and Congressman West in Arabic

we could all expect permanent doom.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 01:11 PM

WHoever dubbed the video from English into Arabic has as much blood on their hands as Rev Terry.

Dubbing back on forth from Hindi to Arabic has also caused much strife over the years.

Here is a translation from Hindi to Arabic that may be the cause of the assasination of Muhatma Ghandi and all the grim killings over the centuries as well as the destruction of Buddist statues by Islamic extremists...


"There is no god, Bhudda lah and my hammock is is mess & grrr. ??"


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 01:13 PM

Oddly enough, the mob that attacked the embassy no doubt thought that they were bringing some wrongdoers to justice, merely by national association...they can't reach the Americans who made the film, so they go after the ones they can reach. Now the call by America is to bring them to justice. If that is done, other people in the Muslim world will respond by further retaliation against America to bring the Americans who brought the Lybian mob to justice to justice! Ah, yes........JUSTICE! We all want it. I can see no forseeable end to such a line of reaction and counterreaction, revenge and counter-revenge....except for everyone to sober up at some point and just stop.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 01:35 PM

Do none of you watch South Park? How about Dogma? Both lampoon god, Christ, the church, the bible, etc.

We have freedom of speech - UTube has refused to remove the offending video for just that reason. The mob had a moral obligation ( so they think) to punish the wrongdoers. There is no middle ground here.
Will saner minds prevail or will this escalate into an international crisis? Or is it already an international crisis?

Watch and wait.

Meantime once again families mourn their losses.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 01:39 PM

Christ is the only lard and savory path to heaven
There is no god, Bhudda lah and my hammock is is mess & grrr.

The price for misinterpretation of religious words,magical thinking and personal teddy bears is grim. The only clarity in the eyes of violent morons is aiming and firing.

Congress shall make no law regarding religion and its practice.
The clarity of the founding fathers is still misunderstood.

The communists attempted to regulate religion as the dangerous vehicle it is. Epic failure.

As unlikely as it sounds, Reagan may have had the key when he said at the UN "sometimes I think if we all experienced an extratresstrial encounter (sic threat) we would drop our petty differences and unite as a world."


LH maybe just maybe this incident with ALL its absurdities and deliberate misunderstanding, can serve as THE evolutionary teaching moment for healthy minds and zealots who shoot first and ask questions later.
And that includes the absurd stance of FOX news who again are inciting war.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 02:52 PM

There have been similar-ish depictions of Christian icons. Remember the band "Cradle of Filth" and the fuss about the "Cherish the Whore" T-shirt? No-one died.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 03:20 PM

Under recent Canadian statutes, it would not be possible for that film to be produced in Canada, or Germany (or most of the EU?).

Perhaps the U.S. has too much freedom of speech.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 03:31 PM

What gets me is that, by their very nature, followers of Judaism and Christianity, must believe that prophet of Islam is a charlatan, and likewise followers of Islam and Judaism don't believe that Jesus was the son of god.
Infact, the very existance of any one of those three religions is an insult any other two.
And, of course, there are the others i.e. the ones using logic and their brains who realised a long back that all religions should be mocked - and totally marginalised - as dangerous fairy tales!


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 03:39 PM

As should most political credos and financial philosophies of the present day.

You know, if you insist on thinking like a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Why not try to see the good in other people for a change?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 03:40 PM

Now they are saying it may have been a coordinated attack to coincide with the anni of 9/11...I thought this was a good thing to point out, (NOT that I believe all Faux News has to say):

They said some Libyans tried to fight to defend the U.S. post while it was under attack, even carrying Stevens' body to a hospital. The Libyan doctor who treated Stevens also told The Associated Press that he died of severe asphyxiation, apparently from smoke inhalation, and that he tried for 90 minutes to revive him. There continue to be conflicting reports about the circumstances of Stevens' death.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/12/us-officials-suspect-strike-on-benghazi-post-coordinated/#ixzz26HmLPDqq


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:00 PM

The reporter's question, at least as quoted, is itself a provocation.

As far as I know, the phrase "act of war" has no legal standing. A nation may take any affront - real or imagined - to be an "act of war" and respond any way it sees fit. Then the ball is in another court, of course.

But the public, I believe, thinks an "act of war" is something clearly defined by some international code of law and that must be answered with military force. Since the death of the ambassador and his staff was caused by an attack on U.S. territory (the consulate grounds), it was *in that sense* no different from the 9/11 attacks, which Pres. Bush declared, with justification, "an act of war."

If Obama had said, "Yes, it's an act of war," that would mean he'd be giving orders to retaliate against the government of Libya, which (unlike Afghanistan in 2001)is more or less an American ally. It would be absurd. What's more, FOX could then slam him for mishandling whatever happened next, including getting America into another war as the result of "leading from behind" in Libya last year.

But if Obama had said straight out, "No, it is not an act of war" FOX could then replay Bush's "act of war" sound bite, show the burning consulate in split screen with the collapsing WTC, and "prove" to people who think war is cool just how stupid and spineless the current President is for denying that an attack on American territory and citizens is an "act of war."

They can do it anyway: "Obama won't call it an act of war (even though YOU know it is)!" Cue split-screen.

The President's actual statement shows he can keep his head when people around him are losing theirs and blaming him for it because that's how they make a living.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:05 PM

Correct. The US has hate crime laws that pertain to assault battery and death but no hate speech laws.

Pursuant to the 1st ammendment free speech has become a variety of things and has been modified in a very grim manner recently.

Speech is now cash, and after the Citizens United Supreme Court ruling, Millions of dollars by secret donors be they American or not are allowed to influence Federal Elections.
Speech used to be all kinds of expression be it rolling your eyes , books, movies or even porn. Now that speech has become money the issue of free speech is as corrupt as money used for any nefarious use.

If we had hate speech laws what would happen regarding money being used for hateful reasons?

Yes a new Constitutional ammedment is needed as a result of Citizens United rulings, at least to bring speech back to being expression and not "he who has the most cash rules".


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: gnu
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:10 PM

I watched a bit of the movie from TIA's link. I am at a loss for words.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:13 PM

As I said at the time, US and UK involvement against Gadaffi was a disgrace and the utmost stupidity.

Or did we really want to de-stabilise the region?

Perhaps our two main Mudcat "warriors" would like to explain the present state of affairs.

The people who are about to assume power in libya, Egypt, Syria, really hate the West and all it stands for(they have a point), but why assist them in their ambitions?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:26 PM

A couple of song lines come to mind:
...............and another eye for another eye until everyone is blind.
...............fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 05:08 PM

Freedom of speech? or License?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 05:17 PM

I may not agree with what you say...
But I will defend to the death...
...your right to get your a$$ killed because you are too stupid to know when to keep your mouth shut...


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 05:19 PM

Unfortunately in this case the dumba$$ in question got other people killed. It's a mad sad world. -Glenn


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Janie
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:56 PM

The Guy has disappeared from view. Very upset, but denies responsibility.

So, he puts up the film under a pseudonym, then goes into hiding, so terribly upset at what has happened, but denying any responsibility for the unintended consequences. Thing is, violence in the Mid-East was certainly a potential consequence, intended or not, and the guy must have had some awareness of that to have worked under a pseudonym to begin with.

On the rare occasions I am deliberately insulting, I am not surprised that some people are insulted.

Hate and "righteous judgement" beget hate and "righteous judgement." It doesn't matter where the "begatting" begins. What makes a difference is when any person is willing to stop hating and stop making "righteous judgement."

There are the seeds of an opportunity within this tragedy for greater understanding and tolerance between cultures to arise from the ashes, and for haters and "righteous judgers" to reflect on the cost of intolerance of differences, lack of respect, ignorance of other cultures and societies, and emotional reactivity to what has become a very small world.
I read the news quotes from officials in Egypt about the non-lethal assault on our embassy there, and find myself first thinking, why don't they speak up, point out the US Government had nothing to do with this, and protests and attacks against our Embassy in Egypt are senseless. Then I consider that our cultures and mores are so different that perhaps even the highest leadership in many countries of the Mid-East don't understand the degree of individual freedom, hegemony and diversity represented within our society, and protected and allowed under our laws. In many of those countries, it may be that protected by law means sanctioned, if not endorsed by government and that our ways are incomprehensible. It may mean the highest leadership of those countries understands perfectly well, but does not want to lose their fragile hold on power. It may mean some combination of the two, or may mean I completely do not comprehend.

It is not possible to understand irrationality. However, it is possible to accept that mankind is often more irrational than not. The more rational among us then have to decide what to do with that awareness.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 09:33 PM

This film-maker, using the name Sam Bacile (rhymes with imbecile?) and allegedly an Israeli Jew, is very mysterious. He may not be who he's been represented to be. I find it hard to believe that a Jew would say Islam is a cancer. That's what the Nazis said about Jews. Unless he's being disingenuous.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,highlandman at home
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 10:56 PM

Janie, well said, except that I disagree that we should "stop righteous judgment" altogether.
I have tried to live by a quote which I have long since lost the source of; which goes something like, "we should direct all our zeal for righteousness toward ourselves, and all our zeal for mercy and grace to others."
The original was probably much better than how I remember it. And I admit I follow it even less well than I recall it, alas.
-Glenn


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 10:58 PM

So how's this for conspiracy speculation: the Koch brothers cut a check to the film-maker with the understanding that he will distribute it after the Democratic Convention with the help of the Irreverent Terry. Nothing like an international crisis to shift focus from the more basic issues of the campaign. And Obama was suddenly leading in the polls.

Here's some background on the Ambassador who was killed:

Ambassador Chris Stevens, a former Peace Corps volunteer, died in an attack on a U.S. consulate in Libya on Tuesday, along with three other Americans, and news of his death caused concern and sorrow in a region that is home to many diplomats and foreign-affairs advisers. It appears Stevens died while attempting to organize an evacuation of the compound, according to initial reports from Congressional and military leaders.

"They go into these countries with a handshake, not a gun," noted John Coyne, a Peace Corps veteran from Pelham Manor, speaking of Stevens' background in the Peace Corps and the diplomatic service. "What struck me was that he was going into the building to rescue people. You go to where the problem is, that's a typical Peace Corps reaction, that's what he was doing," said Coyne, who runs a website for Peace Corps veterans.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:44 AM

Do you really think the people who attacked the American embassy were responding to a stupid film?

According to reports on BBC this was a well organised "military operation"......These people were making a political point and we gave them the power to do so.

Freedom, Democracy, Tolerance.......never forget they are only words,are we fit to teach their true meaning to others?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:41 AM

How ironic that this should happen now, the year after western governments provided military support for the overthrow of Gaddafi. It recalls the 1980's, when the US helped to overthrow the progressive but Soviet-friendly government of Afghanistan. Maybe Libya will turn out as well as that in the end.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:25 AM

The attack on the embassy seems to have been a military attack by Salafist extremists, who have been bombing and destroying Sufi mosques, and attacked the Tunisian embassy this week, as well. Quaddafi(or however you spell his name) manage to keep them in check, but the democratically elected government seems powerless to restrain them.

The Salafists are the fastest growing segment of Islam, and are financially encouraged by our good and constant friends, the Sauds.

The "repressive and tyrannical regimes" that we were so eager to see fall focussed a lot of that repression and tyranny on these folks. Kind of reminds me of how glad we were to see that repressive, tyrannical Shah of Iran fall...


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:39 AM

""Perhaps the U.S. has too much freedom of speech.""

I think it's more the case that Americans have forgotten the context within which the founding fathers wrote the right to free speech into the constitution.

In their day an extremist could air his obnoxious views to a few mates in the saloon without any really serious damage being done (some Native Americans might disagree), but he couldn't reach enough people to have real influence.

Even radio and television didn't alter that situation very much, since program controllers simply blanked those idiots.

The internet has changed all that. Now the extremist can post his filth world wide and cause massive damage on an international scale.

Time to re-think "Free Speech" in the context of modern communications, and enact laws permitting the prosecution and punishment of slime like Rev Terry Jones for performing the exact equivalent of shouting "FIRE!" in the world's largest theatre, with predictable consequences which are exactly the result he desires to achieve.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:54 AM

""Infact, the very existance of any one of those three religions is an insult any other two.""

That's exactly the kind of ill informed comment that leads to these events.

The Koran refers to Christians as "People of the Book", and respects them as legitimate followers of the same deity.

You should not equate the twisted interpretations of a minority of religious fanatics with the Islamic religion itself.

However, there are some things that ARE different. Islam takes insults to its prophet much more seriously than Christians do, and their reactions are much more physical.

Knowing that and paying their religion the respect it deserves is the way to peaceful co-existence, which would require the effective muzzling of hatemongers like Terry Jones.

I want to see the Benghazi killers in the dock, but only if Terry Jones is treated the same.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:01 AM

If you shout "fire" in a theatre knowing it to be a lie, you are guilty of a wicked, malicious and potentially deadly deception.
If you honestly believe there to be a fire, you have a right and a duty to warn others of your fear.

Christian beliefs are mocked all the time.
Why should any religion be more worthy of respect than any other?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:16 AM

Keith, I'm getting the impression that you consider the film to be defensible, as a "sincere" effort to "shout fire". Have you watched the lined clip of the film? I skimmed it; there was no way I could stomach the entirety of it. I've seen other things just as sick filmed or circulated as political or religious screeds, but I haven't personally seen anything sicker.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:23 AM

...linked clip....


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:40 AM

After hearing reports of attacks on American embassies throughout the Middle East , I just hope Terry Jones can sleep at night !
IF a bloody Fool Extremist Religious Bigot can start World War Three
God Help Us All .


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:10 AM

To sum up:

The people who produced this film are despicable, and appear to be associated with right wing extremist Steve Klein who claims to have been a script consultant and Middle Eastern Christains who live in the US and hold extreme anti-Islamic views; Coptic Christian Nakoula Basseley Nakoula has acknowledged managing the company that produced the film and may also be "Sam Bacile" the fictitious person who posted the film rider with a dubbed Arabic sound track to You-Tube.

The demonstration in Libya triggered by the You-Tube film rider may well have been taken advantage of by Islamic militants who had previously planned an attack on the Consulate in Benghazi in association with the September 11, 2001, anniversary terrorists strikes in the US.

That's what makes sense to me. The peaceful protests were an appropriate response to the despicable film rider. The violent attacks and murder of the Consulate staff were not.

The Romney political response was inappropriate as well as inaccurate in terms of how it described the events leading up to the attack on the Consulate in Benghazi.

I'm frankly getting tired of the many posts in threads like this that simply react to such news stories without doing a little background research. If one takes the time to reread what many people have already posted, including my own inane post, they are embarrassing at the least and highly disrespectful of those who actually died in the service of their country.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:17 AM

The film was a cover-up of the REAL reasons for the uprisings.
This will come out even more than it has already....you'll see!

GfS


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM

From another current thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Gulf of Tonkin Incident...real or fake?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:54 AM

OH...and one more tidbit....

The U.S. Embassies , in Libya and Egypt were sacked, and four Americans killed, including the Ambassador, because the protesters were protesting a film on 'YouTube'?..Real or Fake?????????

Hint: From all the 'news' reports, they were chanting, "Obama, We are a billion Osamas!"

(No mention of them chanting ANYTHING about a film!)

Another Hint: At the DNC, Obama's spiking the football about the death of OBL, was boasted 21 times!

Now I don't know if the film 'smokescreen' was very true....but what I posted is absolutely true!

Gosh, think it might have to do with his foreign policies?

You know, ignore the Iranian's when they are protesting and dying in the streets, root for the Egyptians, ignore the Syrian civilians when they are dying in the streets, give air support to the Libyans....

BTW, Saudis are coming up on the list....just think, if they got overthrown, do you think we could rationalize not paying them off for all the U.S. notes they're holding, so we'd buy their oil??..Gosh, what a great reason to drill here, huh?....Ever heard that before???
Broke it here on Mudcat, close to a year ago.....

Sane or gifted??
Real or fake??
Republican or Democrat??

GfS


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:22 AM

The cost of the muslim taboo video is said to cost 5 million dollars

How Amb.Stevens arrived at the Bengazi hospital is still unclear. Perhaps locals tried to help but wish to remain annonymous for fear of extremeist reprisals. What is clear is that both Glen Beck and Fox nes are claiming that Ambassador Steven's mutillated body was dragged through Bengazi streets exactly like our Black Hawk down troops in Somalia.

The most incoherent reporting on FOX claims that Obama started the Arab Spring protest movement to replace our allies like Mubarek and Gadafi with the Muslim Brotherhood. John McCain claims somthing similar in that Obama's failure to lead has led directly to the ascendency of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The story of a coordinated attack by a Muslim militia rings true since the attack was tried once before in a similar manner at the same Embassy.






link

Isreal denies the 5 million dollar film designed to inflame all the Muslim taboos, is connected to Netanyahu's need to attack Iran and order the US military to coordinate with Isreal military forces.
Romney has given Netanyahu his assurance that the US military would assist Isreal in the invasion of Iran. That promise spured Netanyahu to campaign for Romney and shmooze the neocons in Washington.

Netanyahu is an Isreali version of John McCain who maintains his political ambitions with an incessant call to war.

So far Obama has frustrated every attempt by Netayahu to get the US to give Iran an Ultimatum to war.

Personally I do not think Isreal should presume they are entitled to American lives, treasure, American geopolitcal standing and the entire US military to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.

Perhaps this is an example of a pre emptive war and invasion that should have been waged but according to the Art of War there are more clever ways to expose Iran to defeat and its nuclear ambitions.
Obama has proved he is more cool and calculating than the knee jerk neo cons when dealing with Islamic aggression.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

It was also claimed that his death was caused by asphyxiation!

GfS


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: bobad
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

Charley is once again a clear voice of reason in the murky sea of speculation and uninformed opinion.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:34 AM

quote: Even radio and television didn't alter that situation very much, since program controllers simply blanked those idiots.
The internet has changed all that. Now the extremist can post his filth world wide and cause massive damage on an international scale.


Good point. The film and the violence it's said to have caused would make a very persuasive argument for internet censorship, at least in the Muslim world, and maybe corporate self-regulation in the Free world. The internet has been a nuisance to all governments for some time now, to say nothing of the recent impact of Wikileaks, so this astonishingly amateurish film couldn't have come at a better time.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:36 AM

Comon dude, like Ebbie says context is everything.

asphyxiation - by smoke inhalation.

choking/strangulation will leave permanent clues entirely different than smoke inhalation.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:56 AM

remember a film called "The Last Temptation of Christ" from a few years ago.
No riots or murders that I can recall.


Your recollection is highly selective.

Paris theatre arson attack


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:15 AM

Most alarming to me in the midst of the embassy killings is that Netanyahu is insisting President Obama give Iran an ultimatum to war.

I hope Obama has a sensible plan to undermine Iran's nuclear ambition other than Isreal's plan to explode the nuclear facilities in Iran creating the biggest dirty bomb event ever seen.
Even if Iran makes a nuke
do you really think that Iran has no regard for nuclear retalliation?

Step away from nuclear war. There is plenty of time. Isreal, if you are in such a hurry do as you did in Iraq but leave my country out of it.

There are probably some who belive Isreal can do no wrong. Lets hope they are right.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:23 AM

quote: Coptic Christian Nakoula Basseley Nakoula has acknowledged managing the company that produced the film and may also be "Sam Bacile" the fictitious person who posted the film rider with a dubbed Arabic sound track to You-Tube.

The Copts, descendants of the ancient Egyptians, have long been persecuted by the Arabs who conquered Egypt. They're killed routinely even without insulting Islam. The last thing they'd want is to inflame Muslim militants, so the idea that a Copt would make a film like this is even more improbable than the earlier story that it was made by an Israeli Jew using Hitler's rhetoric. Exposing one lie doesn't necessarily mean we've arrived at the truth.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:24 AM

As I watched various news programs late last night, it became evident that there were several events, which may or may not be directly connected. We may never know exactly who 'saw' a film, or what their intention was based on, or whether there would have been attacks without the film.

What we DO have is a timeline of when various events happened... including Obama's & Romney's reaction to the film, the protests, the attacks and each other's statements.

While we wait for 'some' clarification of who was actually responsible for the various protests and attacks, we can focus on the responsibility for the stupid, hateful film .... which is indefensible no matter what its causality is deemed to be. We can also evaluate the 'rush to judgment' and political posturing of Mitt Romney, who is being criticized by many Republicans for his blundering.

.... and we can recognize the amazing dedication of many of our foreign service officers who work long hours in dangerous countries.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:30 AM

Thats been done - remember a film called "The Last Temptation of Christ" from a few years ago.
No riots or murders that I can recall.


Your memory is selective.

French Catholics tried to burn down a theatre where it was showing and severely injured several people.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:37 AM

"In fact, the very existence of one of those three religions is an insult to the other two"
In some communities around the world, combinations of Jews, Christians and Muslims live side by side without any problems and with much mutual respect. I have myself seen this with Muslims and Christians in Southern Senegal (Casamance) for example, and also among all three in Casablanca, Morocco. As I've often said on Mudcat, my husband is a Muslim and I'm a Christian, and we have no problems with this whatsoever.
Free speech is vital, but there have always been blasphemy laws, and more recently 'incite to hatred' laws, to take effect where mutual respect breaks down.
A few months ago, there was a birth-control poster showing the Virgin Mary looking at a pregnancy test. I was rather taken aback, as were many Christians, but no-one was attacked because of it. I do feel that it should have been banned however.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:44 AM

10, years ago 15 years ago, the fuel that escalated the Israel/Palestinian conflict was Likud on one side, and Hamas on the other trading harsh words an atrocities in order to consolidate their own power as the only one who can protect its constituents against the other.

I see Pastor Jones and certain Islamic militants playing that same game and unfortunately I see a number of members of what I would call the Organized Church of Anti-God, some of whom evangelize on this forum egging them on.

The fact is the number of people who want war between Christianity and Islam is almost insignificant. The attention they get is very significant.

Though the GOP is quite happy to exploit that conflict in order to inspire the fear based voters in its base.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:57 AM

Tony-

"The Copts, descendants of the ancient Egyptians, have long been persecuted by the Arabs who conquered Egypt. They're killed routinely even without insulting Islam. The last thing they'd want is to inflame Muslim militants, so the idea that a Copt would make a film like this is even more improbable than the earlier story that it was made by an Israeli Jew using Hitler's rhetoric. "

We disagree in part. The Coptic believers in Egypt are no doubt persecuted and would hardly be associated with such a film. However, that is not the case for some Coptic believers safe in the US who are quite embittered and willing to produce such a film.

From Al Jazeera:

"The US prosecutor-general said on Wednesday that four people were being questioned after Tuesday's events.

Nine Coptic Egyptian-Americans were also put on an airport watch list. They are believed to have contributed to the production of the anti-Islam film that led to the embassy protest."

Second report:

"Morris Sadek, an Egypt-born Coptic Christian who lives in the US, told the Associated Press he had been promoting the film on his website. He also tweeted a link to the trailer on September 9.

Sadek, who serves as head of the National American Coptic Assembly, is known for his vehemently anti-Islam views. He told the Wall Street Journal that 'the violence that it [the film] caused in Egypt is further evidence of how violent the religion and people are.'"

No apologies needed. Just do your homework before posting.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM

The film has been around for a while. Pastor Jones, in his infinite wisdom, dragged it from the scrapheap and, through the miracle of modern communications technology, managed to create an international incident that neither he, nor anyone else seems to have anticipated.

Given that, whatever we may think of his ideas and his methods, he didn't start the fire. The attack in Benghazi looks very much like it is part of a paramilitary campaign that has been in progress for a while. It is likely that they took advantage of the fact that a peaceful demonstration was in progress to cover their approach.

It looks very much like the protests in other places are being used in the same way. When there is a volatile situation, it just takes one match.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

I think that he totally anticipated that there would be a reaction from radical Muslims. I think that what surprised him was that it did not lead to World War III.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM

A couple of teenagers hit my local theater with stink-bombs for showing "The Last Temptation of Christ."

Nobody was injured, however. The next most dramatic thing I recall was a large middle-aged woman shouting that an "atheist" had tried to run her down with a car for holding a protest sign. She said, "His eyes were big as silver dollars!"

Nobody else seemed to have noticed the incident.

There may have been a couple of dozen protesters, most of whom were well behaved. A few looked angry.

One big difference is that "Last Temptation" was not created to insult or defame Jesus, though a few thought it did.

Mel Gibson's Jesus movie was widely criticized for antisemitism. Again, there were some protests, but nobody seems to have been hurt.

In other words, nothing like the scenes in Egypt and Libya yesterday.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM

This point seems to be lost in one of Donuel's creative flourishes, But the date of the attack tells us a lot about its purpose. Its fun to talk about all the newer elements of this. But I, for one, do not believe that al-Qaeda needs any more excuses than it had on September 10, 2001 to attack US interests.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:22 PM

No apology, Charley. I did read several reports about the Coptic identity of the film-maker before I posted, just as I had earlier read several reports about Jewish film-makers and financiers. But, as I said, I'm skeptical because it makes no sense. It only makes sense if those Coptic-Americans are embittered toward the Coptic community in Egypt. Is that what you meant? The film did nothing to harm Muslims or to undermine anyone's faith in or opinion about Islam, but Christians in Muslim countries will certainly suffer from it.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: number 6
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:26 PM

Has anyone here surmised that many countries (especially in the mid-east) don't trust, just don't like the United States of America. Fed up of the lies of the U.S.government ... fed up of the U.S. meddling in their own affairs for so many years ... fed up of the righteous attitude imposed upon their own culture and politikal affairs. Fed up of U.S.wars on their own homeland.

These people are just plain angry. As if they didin't have enough problems through the years with dictators sponsored by by the U.S.

biLL


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:33 PM

Definitely, biLL. And they're probably unaware of our level of political naïveté. They may assume that we understand and approve of everything our government does around the world, in which case they're surely wondering how any human being could be so callous and cruel.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 01:40 PM

I agree with biLL, to the point that the film was just an excuse!..a smokescreen!

GfS


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:08 PM

Fascinating reading, especially including the 3,000 comments already posted (I read about fifty):

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-id-california-mans-role-anti-islam-film-164554115.html


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:18 PM

"Has anyone here surmised that many countries (especially in the mid-east) don't trust, just don't like the United States of America. Fed up of the lies of the U.S.government ... fed up of the U.S. meddling in their own affairs for so many years ... fed up of the righteous attitude imposed upon their own culture and politikal affairs. Fed up of U.S.wars on their own homeland."

Yes!! I surmised a very similar point and posted it 27 minutes before you did.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:28 PM

For those willing to spend a bit of time, there is a fascinating interview on NPR's Talk of the Nation which will be available online later tonight HERE:

To understand many of the triumphs, tragedies and conflicts in the world, geopolitical analyst Robert Kaplan says to look no further than a map. In his book The Revenge Of Geography, Kaplan argues that geography is central to understanding the history and future of world affairs.

There are summaries of the other segments on that page. The first part on Libya, etc, was VERY interesting and well worth listening, as well as the author listed above.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:02 PM

In the case of Libya, Pres Obama, to his great credit, had to be dragged into the conflict by Hillary the Hawk and the vague Mr Hague from the UK.

Because of idiots like these the Middle East and North Africa is now in the hands of Muslim extremists, who will show no "toleration" of any other religion, indeed, any other way of life but Sharia Islam.

In Libya, Egypt,Iraq, we have enabled this disaster and the victors are just starting to flex their muscles.....watch this space!


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:38 PM

Conspiracy theories ain't so far fetched. You got yours and I got The Gulf of Mexico. In case ya didn't catch it, BP spilled a shitload a yer crude there and had ta make up the bucks ($20B is a low guess) in tha long run so it said to Quackdaffy they had to "renegotiate" the deal that had just seen BP setting up in Libya and he said, "FUCK YOU! I GOTTA CONTRACT!" (I am paraphrasing). Quackdaddy is dead. The companies that BP also fucked over are a tad pissed and they are not just in Libya. You do the math.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:56 PM

The film has been around for a while. Pastor Jones, in his infinite wisdom, dragged it from the scrapheap and, through the miracle of modern communications technology, managed to create an international incident that neither he, nor anyone else seems to have anticipated.

I would think it pretty certain that those who created and distributed the film were hoping for the kind of things happening that have happened.

Those who want to see this kind of conflict build up share the same agenda, whichever side of the sectarian divide they might be.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:32 PM

Sorry, McGrath, but I don't see how you can be "pretty certain" of that.

Here is possible, and much more believable scenario:

A really bad businessman, who has already lost a lot of money for himself and others with a shady banking scheme, comes up with another money making idea, just as good, which is to make a really low budget movie that exploits prejudices about Islam, and market it to rabidly anti-Islamic American Christian fundamentalists. It works for Pat Robertson.


Your problem, McGrath, is that you don't know how to think like an American.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:33 PM

Yeah, it works for scum. Part of the problem.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:37 PM

You mean like Charles Lamb's notion about how people used to burn down houses in order to get some roast pork?

I rather think that the idea of stirring things up and getting some people killed with useful consequences might have entered into the thinking as well as the hope of coining it. Making a killing both ways in fact.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Janie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:59 PM

Glenn/highlandman,

Whether the quote is garbled or not, a "well said" back at you. Not a bad philosophy to try to live by.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:51 PM

quote: ...to make a really low budget movie that exploits prejudices about Islam, and market it to rabidly anti-Islamic American Christian fundamentalists.

That does make sense, up to a point; and the business of America is, as you said, business. Only, why dub it into Arabic then? You'd only need the original English version for the American fundamentalists. But if the people who bought the film wanted to inflame Muslim fundamentalists as well, they would have asked for the Arabic version as an extra.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:04 PM

Tony-

"I did read several reports about the Coptic identity of the film-maker before I posted, just as I had earlier read several reports about Jewish film-makers and financiers. But, as I said, I'm skeptical because it makes no sense. It only makes sense if those Coptic-Americans are embittered toward the Coptic community in Egypt. Is that what you meant? The film did nothing to harm Muslims or to undermine anyone's faith in or opinion about Islam, but Christians in Muslim countries will certainly suffer from it."

I agree that it doesn't "make sense" for the Coptic film producer, Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, to do this, and run the risk of endangering his family and other Coptic Christians in Egypt by his actions. However, according this evening ABC interview with the gentleman in questions, he admits collecting money from relatives in Egypt and directing and distributing the film clip, including the Arabic version. So maybe you should re-examine your assumptions about what "makes sense" for some Coptic Christians in this country to do, versus what is part of some international conspiracy, or not.

I also deeply disagree with your statement that "The film did nothing to harm Muslims or to undermine anyone's faith in or opinion about Islam..." Maybe on your planet that statement could be true, not on this one.

Anyone else here want to do the math?

Having served in the Peace Corps for three years, I'm probably taking the death of Ambassador Chris Stevens more personally that some of the posters. In my opinion he was a well-informed man who placed himself in danger to help Libyans free themselves of Ghadafi and represent our best values abroad.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:56 PM

So we agree that it doesn't make sense in a normal way. And you said that if it was done at all it must make sense in some way. That's really my point – in what twisted covert scenario does it make sense? Sometimes stupid people do things that don't make sense in any way; and it does make a kind of sense for a sleezeball of any ethnic background to try to make a buck by degrading himself and the world around him, as Stim suggested. But in political matters when something doesn't appear to make sense there's often a more complex explanation.

The Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles issued a statement to the same affect. They disassociated themselves and their flock from the film-maker, pointing out that his action was diametrically opposed to Christian teaching and longstanding Coptic practice, and they suggested that the film-maker had an ulterior motive. And they asked that we not take the usual ignorant approach of saying "Well, that shows what those people are like."

The film does no harm to Muslims or Islam because it's so crudely made. Have you seen the 14 minute clip on YouTube? It's artistically and intellectually equivalent to writing "Muhammed very bad man" on a placard, but infinitely more tedious.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:01 PM

Seems odd that one person could knowingly and easily incite such actions and there is nothing that anyone impacted can do about it, or it from happening again?

Should there not be a law for that type of thing?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:09 PM

The Arabic translation was for the investors back home. The sad fact of the matter is that the idea making a "Hollywood Movie" is more seductive that any religion, and it can drive people have to do nearly anything.


Charley: Chris Stevens seemed like an amazing person. I am proud that someone like him represented us, and and feel great pain at the price he paid.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: gnu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:20 PM

Ed, in Canada there is.

Or were you asking a silly question? That ain't so silly???


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:22 PM

It's also likely that the "film" itself is merely the excuse that more radical Islamists are using to focus general public outrage on "their enemies," the United States and its allies.

Tony-

"The film does no harm to Muslims or Islam because it's so crudely made."

But was not it the catalyst, crude as it is, for this attack on several US embassies and consulates? Maybe you mean "should do no harm" in a more perfect world.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:12 PM

Yes, it may have been the catalyst, for that and future attacks on embassies and American travelers and Christians living in Muslim nations. I was taking "harm" to mean the person who gets firebombed, not the person who tosses it, though of course in a spiritual sense both are harmed. And even in practical terms there will be repercussions for the rioters. And those repercussions, and other forms of divide-and-conquer self-destruction of any nation that doesn't submit to the empire, I see as a consistent thread of US foreign policy.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:19 AM

"We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen" - Steve Klein, evidently one of the main people behind the film. (From here)


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 06:59 AM

""One big difference is that "Last Temptation" was not created to insult or defame Jesus, though a few thought it did.

Mel Gibson's Jesus movie was widely criticized for antisemitism. Again, there were some protests, but nobody seems to have been hurt.

In other words, nothing like the scenes in Egypt and Libya yesterday.
""

No, the BIG difference is that Islam forbids the production of images of their prophet. To add to that the depiction of him as being involved in obscene sexual practises, would represent the very worst example of blasphemy to its followers.

It strikes at the very heart of what they believe, and plays right into the hands of Islamic extremists, because it tends to push moderates in their direction.

Rev Jones should be kicked out of his church, stripped of his ministry and jailed for a very long time.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 07:12 AM

Jailed for what?
Blasphemy is forbiden by all religions, but in the West it is no longer regarded as a crime.
Must we go backwards on that?
I think we should encourage other cultures to stop killing people, including children, and even with learning difficulties, for just being accused of it.

I truly find that offensive, but I will refrain from rioting.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 07:55 AM

The Guardian article makes sense out of the whole mess. That Klein quote was in all the reports, but this one goes into a lot of detail about his hate-mongering career and the role he had in making the film, too long and complex even to summarize here. Thanks, McGrath, for that link.

The only question that remains is why the US government allows those hate groups to flourish. The standard answer is to wring our hands and say it's a shame we can't prevent things like this, but it's because we value freedom, and the only way to prevent it would be by taking away that freedom. That myth persists even now, when we can't get on an airplane with a bottle of water, and the President can have any one of us pulled out of our home and sent to a cage in Guantanamo without giving a reason.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 09:08 AM

Yes, the Guardian article linked above

The Guardian article does clarify who the "hate-mongers" are who produced and distributed the film. They are no doubt very proud of what they've accomplished, and for a mere $60,000.

I would think that these scum could at least be charged with a hate crime, and libel for civil charges from the families of those Americans killed in the attack on the US Consulate in Libya. Maybe their American citizenship could be revoked and they could be sent back to simmer in Egypt.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 10:39 AM

But the person who set the direction of the project and probably initiated it was the American-born Vietnam veteran Klein. There's nowhere to send him back to.

Klein openly advocates violence toward Muslims in the US. The connection with Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik should at least have been enough to get him on a federal watch list. I assume he was watched, and people in high places knew about the movie and its intended effect before it was made.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 11:04 AM

Sadly, we Americans have no "Guardian" to rely on for the facts, and hence must trust such as the New York Times, who have this to offer:
Origins of Provocative Videos are Shrouded

Here is a quote: "Sam said the intent of the film was to get extremist Muslims to stop killing," Mr. Klein said Thursday.

And another: "It looked like drunk people trying to do a 'Saturday Night Live' skit directed by the Three Stooges," Mr. Klein said. "But it was absolutely spot on accurate in terms of its depiction of Muhammad and Islam."


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: saulgoldie
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 11:55 AM

Ooo, quick! 100!!


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 12:06 PM

""I think we should encourage other cultures to stop killing people, including children, and even with learning difficulties, for just being accused of it.""

Good luck with that:)


""Blasphemy is forbiden by all religions, but in the West it is no longer regarded as a crime"".

I was not refering to blasphemy but knowingly taking actions that clearly put the lives of many at risk (even though it could be seen as art). It would not have to involve religion at all. Many countries do have hate crimes and have some limits on the extremes of "free speech" Should there be similar limits for cases the result is clear?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 12:44 PM

""Jailed for what?""

I thought you had the nous to know for what, obviously I was mistaken.

We both know he can't be jailed for blasphemy unless it's in a Muslim country, Maybe he should be exported to Libya and let justice take its course.

But he could and should be indicted for reckless endangerment of US citizens and maybe incitement to race hatred, riot and murder.

The bastard should be ashamed to call himself a man of God.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 12:52 PM

Of course my previous post will not get through to our resident anti Muslim, because he believes that non Christians are somehow sub human and deserve no respect.

It has escaped his notice that the world has moved on from the days when a brown or black man sat on the floor when talking to a white British Commissioner sitting on a chair.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:03 PM

In the US we need a wider interpretation of "hate crime" so that such films, which although not directly advocating violence, are offensive enough to be a catalyst to violence.

Freedom of speech is a fine concept, but intentional abuse of it to further international conflicts needs to be addressed.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:07 PM

Agreed Bill, and not JUST in the USA, but in many other countries too.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:46 PM

"American-born Vietnam veteran Klein"?

What to do with him? That's a perplexing question. Defining what is a "hate crime" can be a slippery slope but Klein has earned a push down it. Anyone else want to give him a helping shove?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:47 PM

"But was not it the catalyst, crude as it is, for this attack on several US embassies and consulates?"

I don't think so. Sept 11 was the reason and the catalyst. Protests about the film were just a little extra cover for the attackers.


You know in a slightly more ironically just world Klein and Jones would go to sleep in a government Gulfstream and wake up in the middle of Tarir square with a Jumbotron over them explaining what they did. That is a secret rendition I could get behind.

Likewise Fred Phelps should wake up dressed as a "Cats" cast member in a gay pride parade.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:03 PM

If it wasn't a stupid film, it would be for being "Infidels". these people want to have a Muslim world and one day they will probably get it.......it may even mean that it helps our species to survive, but in the meantime, why help these folks get into a position of power when they are obviously determined to convert us or destroy us?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:05 PM

Anyone heard from Myrrzy? I wonder how she's handling all of this......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:07 PM

Ake,

I don't know if this is news or not, but Yes some Muslims do want the whole world to be Muslim, and they expect that because it was prophesied.

Like wise most Christian sects believe the same about their own brand of religion, because it was prophesied.

Many Jews expect the Messiah to come and smite everyone who has ever wronged them and have them rule the world under Him, because it was prophesied.

Hindus expect payback in Kharma.

Athiests, sci fi believers, expect everyone to become "enlightened" like them.

Pretty much everyone but suicidal pessimists believe that the some how everyone who is wrong will be divinely brought around to their way of thinking and most everyone thinks everyone else is wrong.

I call that human nature. Your mileage may vary.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:23 PM

Klein said the movie had the desired effect; i.e., it was intended to incite people to terrorism and the fire-bombing of a US consulate. That sounds illegal to me.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:33 PM

A Syrian satyrical facebook site writes this comment:

"The Arabs are very emotional. Films make them laugh, cry, rampage, flip out, and kill. But when they see how in Syria mosques and churches are bombed, Korans are burnt, and women are insulted they don't care. Because it's no film but reality. We wish what happens now in Syria was a film. Then at least the Arabs would do something for us."

This satyrical comment shows how completely out of proportion the violent demonstrations against a bad film are.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 05:17 PM

There are more than 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide.

Several thousand have demonstrated and mayby 100 (I'm guessing) were directly involved in the attack on the Americans.

So far I haven't heard of any American tourists being attacked, which is what I'd expect if we were dealing with hundreds of millions of out-of-control maniacs, which is exactly what a few people want us to believe.

My guess is that nearly 1.5 billion Muslims are plenty pissed about the movie (at least those who've heard of it), but have no intention of killing anyone over it. They're too busy making ends meet.

Arab (not necessarily Muslim) culture encourages men to act out their grief and rage as much as possible. Pride and personal vengeance are atraditionally held in high esteem. Many of the demonstrators (who are reported by CNN to be mainly "between the ages of 6 and 21" in Cairo) are rioting to show themselves and each other just how angry and and manly they are.

Not the whole story, but part of it.

Meanwhile, the story of Mr. Nakoula Nakoula, the filmmaker, and how he made his movie, is too twisty for me to get into. Check out the CNN website for details. (But I must mention the post-production dubbing in of names like "Muhammad" and the switching of the title from "Desert Warrior" to "The Innocence of Muslims.")


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 10:40 PM

I do wish this was a comedy; the film certainly has those elements. But no, the story is an on-going reality play and for those of us who have worked overseas it's so easy to imagine how the ordinary day became a tragic one.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 11:01 PM

Jack, I'm told you can help on my video project.

I am currently redubbing the movie LIFE OF BRIAN on You Tube
in Arabic, and replacing the name Brian with Mo.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 01:18 AM

I heard the Pope is in Lebanon and is having a tough go of it.

The kids rioting don't know about free speech. If they get to see somthing it is because the goverment didn't forbid it. They think any stupid video is goverment sanctioned. Being free after decades of US selected dictators is a destabilizing event.

GUEST Lighter's observations are profoundly true. The portrayal by the US/Murdoch right wing through the FOX lens is a magnified distortion of the Middle East.

Isreal's insistence of bombing now not later is certainly a fools wish.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:05 AM

THe US embassy in Sudan is now reported by FOX (unconfirmed) to be in grave jeopardy and has a quick response military team on the way to save the day.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:58 AM

It's getting to be a bit like "The Four Feathers".


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 08:02 AM

Let's see if I've got this straight. For as little as $60,000 for video production Al Qaeda could derail all of the good will the US has generated all over the world from the Arab spring revolutions. And they didn't even have to put up the front money. I find this profoundly depressing. I shouldn't wonder if our diplomatic corps finds it profoundly depressing as well.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM

Al Qaeda didn't even have to make the video. It was virtually made for them by an evil idiot.

I expect more evil idiot to post more violence-inciting videos - forever if the law can't stop them.

And the more videos, the more the other evil idiots unacquainted with freedom of expression will be convinced the US government sponsors all of them.

What's more, Nakoula apparently made the film with the help of "Media for Christ":

http://www.sfgate.com/business/bloomberg/article/Man-Tied-to-Anti-Islam-Film-Has-Criminal-Fraud-3866082.php


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:43 AM

But Charley raised a good point. That film serves Al Qaeda's purpose perfectly. So why they haven't ever made one like that?

Maybe they really are sincere Muslims (not just political opportunists like Bush minimus) and wouldn't be able to take part in making a film derogating Muhammed no matter what the reason or intended effect.

Or maybe they would consider it cowardly to pretend to be someone else and not take credit for their actions. I assume Charley meant that they could make a film like "Innocence of Muslims" but pretend it was made by American Christians or Jews. Otherwise it wouldn't undermine American good will.

If they didn't mind doing it covertly, and if they were really clever, they would first pretend the film-maker was Jewish, using a thinly veiled lie that could easily be exposed, and then fall back on a better-documented lie that he's Christian. After exposing the first lie, everyone would assume they'd uncovered the truth and wouldn't question the second lie, even after the film-maker's alleged church denied it, and even though he's obviously an amoral sleezeball who could be hired to do anything for money.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 10:57 AM

Tony-

Well, I do feel myself in reluctant agreement with your conspiracy reasoning. However, there probably wasn't such a conspiracy. Lord knows there are idiots enough in this world that Al Qaeda doesn't even need to get its hands dirty.

The evident film producers seemed to have no concern for what the release of the film clip might have on the Coptic Christian community in Egypt. Maybe they thought that if there were Muslim attacks on that community, the Muslims would be further isolated, a sacrifice for the greater good of all Christians? Klein and his pals should be fed to the lions.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 11:29 AM

They've been killing the Cop Christians for years....get a grip!


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 11:36 AM

""That film serves Al Qaeda's purpose perfectly. So why they haven't ever made one like that?""

Regardless of their tactics to others, I suspect these folks are extremely loyal to their interpretation of their religion (would die for it), and would not directly dishonour the massiah in such a way.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 11:40 AM

akenaton-

"They've been killing the Cop Christians for years....get a grip!"

Have you considered a career in the diplomatic corps?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Janie
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 01:12 PM

Kat, I'm listening to the podcast of that interview now.

Much food for thought. This quote from Kaplan really resonates.

On how geography influences technology

"There's a whole chapter in the book called 'The Crisis of Room,' where I talk about ... a concept first developed by Yale Professor Paul Bracken in 1999. ... Bracken said that the very finite size of the Earth is an instrument of instability, because as the population grows — as megacities get bigger and bigger, as missile ranges overlap, as the media can travel the speed of light, almost — the fact that the Earth ... cannot expand but stays the same size means a more claustrophobic planet. ... Technology, rather than race geography, simply makes it more precious."


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 02:08 PM

Jack your comment about "if Syria was a film" is profoundly thought provoking and provocative.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 03:34 PM

quote: The evident film producers seemed to have no concern for what the release of the film clip might have on the Coptic Christian community in Egypt. Maybe they thought that if there were Muslim attacks on that community, the Muslims would be further isolated, a sacrifice for the greater good of all Christians?

That's if the guy is who we think he is. Part of that identity has been confirmed but part refuted. The reports continue to describe him as a Coptic Christian, but they shouldn't. He fooled us before. He may have another story he hasn't told us yet, one that may never be discovered.

I'm sure the real story isn't what I implied, because of the other reasons I gave why Al Qaeda wouldn't touch the project. But there are plenty of people who can profit from conflict. I can't even guess who it might be; only that the story we've gotten so far sounds as phoney as the Jewish plot.

Being phoney-sounding doesn't disprove the story. There are morons in the world. But there's reason to be skeptical.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 04:55 PM

His probation officer says the guy really is Nakoula, and his minister says he's a Coptic Christian.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 06:42 PM

quote: ...his minister says he's a Coptic Christian.

Where did you see that, Lighter? Your SF Gate article doesn't say anything about it, and your Yahoo article says:
An official of the Coptic Orthodox Church in Los Angeles said in a statement Thursday that the church's adherents had no involvement in the "inflammatory movie about the prophet of Islam." An official identified as HG Bishop Serapion, of the Coptic Orthodox of Los Angeles, said that "the producers of this movie should be responsible for their actions. The name of our blessed parishioners should not be associated with the efforts of individuals who have ulterior motives."

The only other things I've seen have been Klein and Nakoula saying that he's a Coptic Christian. The only groups I've seen him linked to are National American Coptic Assembly and Media for Christ, which aren't churches.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: bobad
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 06:51 PM

Article on Nakoula Basseley Nakoula from Al Jazeera: Who is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 07:04 PM

From that Al Jazeera article:

Nakoula claims to have attended services at the Coptic Orthodox Church in Los Angeles, but the church's Bishop Serapion initially said none of his priests recognised the fraudster as a congregant.

The bishop later told the AP he confirmed with a priest in Bellflower, California, that Nakoula had once gone to the parish but had not been to services in a long time.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 08:53 PM

Thanks for checking, sweetie, I of course shook all over for a day or so but am OK now. I've been playing on my rectangle so sites where I actually say things are not as often visited... my loss, which is being remedied.

My first thought was Haven't they learned ANYthing, they being the US government? Aren't they tired of putting civilians in harm's way AND then leaving them unprotected? Where were the Marines, I wonder, while knowing that the last thing anybody needs is the Marines actually successfully fighting off the hotheads who would immediately be martyrs, which this ambassador isn't? So my second thought is Is this better, another few fellow State employees dead (at least in a known war zone rather than somewhere new, which is scarier, here there is the comfort of the devil you know) rather than possibly scores of local likely-moslems?

Sigh. Bloody dreadful schadenfreudful endoexistential crises.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:02 PM

If making a film that riles up our enemies and consequently more American kids coming home in boxes isn't treasonous then what is???

I don't give rat's ass about 1st amendment speech if that right is killing our kids...

B~


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 09:16 AM

CNN reported yesterday or Friday that N was a Coptic Christian. As I understood it, they'd spoken to his minister/priest, who said that N was or had been a member of his congregation.

That would be more or less true even if he hadn't attended "in a long time." The significant point of the report was that he was Christian and not Jewish or Muslim.

With two prison terms behind him, his identity seems not to be an issue.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 10:20 AM

Agreed. His history includes gasoline swindling, check-kiting fraud, PCP and methamphetamine manufacturing, and snitching on higher-ups in the drugs and fraud charges for reduced sentences. So it's unlikely that he made the film for ideological reasons. He's motivated by making a fast buck, and he's willing to do harmful, illegal, and dangerous things to make it. My guess is that he did this for money. Only this time he's too afraid of his employers to snitch.

I haven't found as much about Klein, except that he's a xenophobic hate-mongering nut. And also apparently a fervent civil rights activist: While waving the gun, he told the newspaper he was standing up for his First Amendment rights in helping with the film and said he is prepared to die for those rights. He thinks shouting "fire" in a crowded theater is free speech. But it's hard to watch that video and think of someone being willing to die for it. So I question his story also.

One way that all of this could make sense is if they're both extremely stupid. That can't be ruled out. But there are too many big news stories with major political impact that depend on that assumption, so I'm always skeptical about it.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 11:32 AM

I am curious whether any of the money, the $60,000 or so, could be traced to the Koch brothers, or other Swift Boat donors. However, I doubt if the Koch brothers would bother writing such modest checks.

Nakoula should be in great fear of his life, from a wide range of people. There are the indignant Moslems, the indignant Coptic Christians, the donors who would prefer to remain anonymous, a few outraged Mudcatters, and even some public spirited citizens who would not hesitate to silence him forever.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 09:56 AM

BBC.
Sir Salman Rushdie has said he does not think his 1988 novel The Satanic Verses would be published today because of a climate of "fear and nervousness".

The writer said the banning of his book in many countries and the subsequent threats on his life had created a "long-term chilling effect".

"A book which was critical of Islam would be difficult to be published now," he told the BBC's Will Gompertz.

"The only way of living in a free society is to feel that you have the right to say and do stuff," he said.

Many Muslims regard The Satanic Verses as blasphemous, and the book is still banned in India.

The 65-year-old writer lived in hiding for many years after Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa calling for his execution.

Sir Salman said writers were still being attacked for their works in the same way, in Muslim countries including Turkey, Egypt, Algeria and Iran.


Sir Salman said writers and publishers needed to 'be braver' "If you look at the way in which free expression is being attacked by religious extremism, the things of which these people are accused is always the same - it's blasphemy, heresy, insult, offence - it's this medieval vocabulary.

"We're in a difficult place because there's a lot of fear and nervousness around."

He pointed out that, as recently as last week, Channel 4 had cancelled a screening of its documentary, Islam: The Untold Story, following security threats.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 12:14 PM

"Sir Salman Rushdie" Has made a very good living and earned much acclaim for having been threatened and banned. I have certainly heard far more about his conflicts with Iran than his book. Which I gather is some sort of soft core porn with The Prophet of Islam at its center and a very disresptful title?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 02:03 PM

It's somewhat interesting to see how you Yanks really believe in 'freedom of speech'. All it takes is a normally meaningless threat, and you all cower and the thought of standing up for what you SAY you believe. But what you say is only because you ordained yourselves in the freedom to say it, as long as you have the freedom to not pay attention to what you say, or what you believe about what you say.
Situation normal!
Political blow-hards, screwing up the planet!


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 02:36 PM

It is not the politician's fault that the planet is so easy to screw up. It was a mess when we all got here.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM

quote: It's somewhat interesting to see how you Yanks really believe in 'freedom of speech'. All it takes is a normally meaningless threat, and you all cower and the thought of standing up for what you SAY you believe. But what you say is only because you ordained yourselves in the freedom to say it, as long as you have the freedom to not pay attention to what you say, or what you believe about what you say.

At last, someone who understands us. I've always said that other countries censor the book but we censor the reader. And we censor ourselves voluntarily, because we love our freedom so much and we know it would be taken away if we started paying too much attention to things the owners don't want us to think about.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 03:18 PM

Oh, and speaking of 9/11, has anyone noticed the news reports today saying that the Libyan government warned the US government about the consulate attack 3 days before it happened?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 04:27 PM

I am shocked, simply shocked!! That the Libyan government would say that. I am also a little taken aback by the gambling at Rick's American Cafe.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 04:34 PM


"Sir Salman Rushdie" Has made a very good living and earned much acclaim for having been threatened and banned. I have certainly heard far more about his conflicts with Iran than his book. Which I gather is some sort of soft core porn with The Prophet of Islam at its center and a very disresptful title?


Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie born 19 June 1947) is a British Indian novelist and essayist. His second novel, Midnight's Children (1981), won the Booker Prize in 1981. Much of his fiction is set on the Indian subcontinent. He is said to combine magical realism with historical fiction; his work is concerned with the many connections, disruptions and migrations between East and West.

Rushdie was appointed Commandeur de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres of France in January 1999.[3] In June 2007, Queen Elizabeth II knighted him for his services to literature.[4] In 2008, The Times ranked him thirteenth on its list of the fifty greatest British writers since 1945.[5]

Since 2000, Rushdie has "lived mostly near Union Square" in New York City.[6] In 2007 he began a five-year term as Distinguished Writer in Residence at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, where he has also deposited his archives.[7] In May 2008 he was elected a Foreign Honorary Member of the American Academy of Arts and Letters.[8]


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 06:36 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/video-shows-libyans-trying-rescue-us-ambassador-194148880.html


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 08:29 PM

But only a still from the video. Story is of interest.

At least some Libyans tried to rescue the Ambassador.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 05:42 PM

Rick's is in Casablanca. That's in Morocco, not Libya. Everybody comes there.

~M~


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 05:44 PM

"Rick's is in Casablanca. That's in Morocco, not Libya."

Close enough when we are talking about the death of a man who served in both places?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 08:32 AM

French magazine publishes new anti-Muhammad cartoons:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hEql189f07mdaMJPS5SHELZDmbeA?docId=CNG.5d0929a97b73a9337932fa47a377d46b.311


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 09:30 AM

Does a complete film even exist?:

http://news.yahoo.com/anti-muslim-film-hoax-225533597.html


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 10:16 AM

Lighter-

Good point. Possibly much ado about nothing. A tempest in a chamber pot. Do other analogies come to mind?

Too bad the video clip has been taken so seriously.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 10:50 AM

Maybe not. The 14 minute video serves the purpose that everyone involved said they intended. But there was a report that
the Vine Theater, a faded Hollywood movie house, confirmed that the film had run for a least a day, and possibly longer, several months ago, arranged by a customer known as "Sam."

An article today on Antiwar.com gives reasons to think that funding for it may have come indirectly from Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, anti-Islam crusaders whose followers include Klein and Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik. They run the American Freedom Defense Initiative and Stop Islamization of America.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 10:34 PM

If you look for "the Vine Theater, a faded Hollywood movie house", you will find, instead, The Ricardo Montalban Theatre, a historical legitimate theatre that has been architecturally restored and upgraded to a state of the art theatrical facility. What, if anything, was shown there, has not been established.   

One of the links above had a link to the actual video, which is even more ludicrous than anyone has described. Which makes things even more puzzling, because it is impossible to imagine that anyone could mistake it for a real movie. It is lame even by YouTube standards, so what is really going on?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:07 AM

When I looked for the Vine theater I found this article and photo.

It was an AP reporter who called the Vine. Googling the phrase about it turns up lots of papers that ran it. So I think it's probably reliable that the Vine at least claimed to have shown the movie for a day. But everything else about this story is highly suspect.

And now France is closing embassies and schools in 20 countries rather than restrict the "freedom" of Charlie Hebdo cartoons. No mention of the freedom of Muslim girls in France to wear head scarves if they choose.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 03:47 PM

Some sources claim that the "full length" version of the film was just the short clip, repeated. No one seems to have seen whatever was shown. I am curious about the fact that law enforcement seem to be shielding Nakoula from the press. Given that he has not been charged with anything, and there seem not to be discussions about charging him with anything, it seems a bit strange that he has not attempted to straighten things out by making a statement of any sort.

And then,there is the question as to whether our information about the issues and motives of the rioters/protesters is accurate. As you say, everything is highly suspect.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:16 PM

quote: Some sources claim that the "full length" version of the film was just the short clip, repeated.

That's very interesting, and bizarre. Where did you see that?

Nakoula has made statements. Most of it has been shown to be lies, and all of it is as offensive as the film itself.

He's supposed to be in hiding for fear of being killed. That part may be true.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:39 PM

Here's the article I read:Hollywood Reporter "Innocence of Muslims"

I've also tried to watch a few of the YouTube clips that claim to be the full movie, and I think people are editing their own versions, using the 13 minute clip as a centerpiece. Again, that film is unbelievably bad. So bad that people will want to act it out at parties.

In one scene, a man dressed as some sort of doctor writes out an equation on a marker board and says, "Islamic Terrorism plus "x" equals man. Man minus Islamic Terrorism equals X".

His daughter asks the inevitable question,"What is "X"?"

To which the doctor replies, "You'll have to figure that out for yourself."


Which is where we all are on this...


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 02:57 AM

After violent protests yesterday, Pakistan has declared a national holiday today so everyone can have a go.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 11:59 AM

Here's a link to a new Al Jazeera report "Cairo, Benghazi and Beyond: Beware the false fury" that analyzes the origins of the now infamous video clip, and speculates of the motives of its producers: click here for report!

This is one of the reasons I like to review Al Jarzeera every day. I don't necessarily agree with everything they say but they add perspective on international issues and sometimes they really provide excellent insight.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 12:19 PM

2 significant developments

1 Obama and H. Clinton aooear side by side in commercials throughout Pakistan explaing that the video has absokutely nothing to do with the US goverment. This act of mass video diplomacy is new but in my opinion overdue.


2 One of the terrorist killers in the Bengazi embassy attacks turns out to be a former GITMO prisoner that was released during the Bush administration.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 12:55 PM

Thanks for posting that link, Charlie. It provides some useful insights. Particular into the motives of the "protestors" and into much overlooked response to them non-militants.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 03:34 PM

And the beat goes on:


http://news.yahoo.com/anti-jihad-savage-ads-going-nyc-subway-220228596.html

Are equally inflammatory pro-Palestinian and pro-Iranian ad campaigns on the way? How did we get along for so many decades without this stuff?

Would such posters be considered "hate speech" in Canada or the UK?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 03:57 PM

The Pam Geller who placed those subway ads is the same one who probably financed the porn film we've been discussing (as pointed out in the Antiwar.com article I mentioned earlier).

She's representing herself as trying to help the Israeli cause, but I think that makes no more sense than the idea that Nakoula is helping the Copts. Just inciting more terrorism, to the detriment of both groups.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 03:59 PM

Sorry you apologists, by where I live anyone who strapped on a suicide belt to kill and maim innocent people, would be regarded as a seriously deranged lunatic......regardless of their religious or political views.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 04:22 PM

"Apologists"?

"anyone who strapped on a suicide belt to kill and maim innocent people, would be regarded as a seriously deranged lunatic......regardless of their religious or political views."

Seems like a reasonable statement to me.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 04:25 PM

True, but ads like this only create more fury and more terrorists.

If the signs just said, "Support Israel" (as they did years ago), controversy would be limited. But slamming Iranians and/or Palestinians as "savages" is not intended to solve anything, particularly in a city with lots of Iranian and Palestinian immigrants, sane and law-abiding as all but a few are.

The signs are about war, but at the moment there is no war: there are periodic atrocious acts by, as you say, "seriously deranged lunatics."

The signs aren't specific, but they seem to urge a full-scale Israeli war on Iran with some level of U.S. participation.

It's not something to look forward to, no matter which of the four countries one might be in.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 04:38 PM

Ain't about apologizin', Ake, ol' buddy...

It's about fucked up colonialistic foreign policies... We should quit trying to steal other people stuff...

B~


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 05:04 PM

Of course a see the point you make ,guest and Bobert, but I believe the collision of two cultures is inevitable.
I see the faults in Western society only too clearly, and am probably closer to Islamic culture,if looking to the very long term, but we must not be blinded to evil by our personal ideologies.

Dictators like Saddam and Gaddafi served a purpose in controlling the worst excesses of muslim fundamentalism, we have blindly helped bring these madmen to power in the idiotic belief that they would be converted to our tool of choice "democracy"


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 06:30 PM

Right, democracy! That's what we want for the Mideast. Real democracy like in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and U.A.E. And not just some sham populist democracy like when the Iranians elected Mosaddegh.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 06:38 PM

I have little faith in any form of democracy...."The People" is a beast of muddy brain.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 11:44 PM

akenaton-

Dictators like Saddam and Gaddafi served a purpose in controlling the worst excesses of muslim fundamentalism, we have blindly helped bring these madmen to power in the idiotic belief that they would be converted to our tool of choice "democracy"

You're entitled to your pessimism or your critical realism, whatever you want to call it.

I like the peaceful demonstrations in Benghazi that took place today, where thousands marched on the militant Islamic compound and forced them to flee. You probably didn't hear about that.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 09:43 AM

"Crowds force Ansar al-Sharia, suspected of playing a role in US ambassador's death, to vacate its compounds in the city."

Here's a link to a more detailed summary by Al Jazeera of the demonstrations yesterday in Benghazi which led to the eviction of the Ansar al-Sharia militia forces from their headquarters: click here for report!

Like many protest events in the world, this one requires some homework to fully understand. But it was not good news for the resident Islamic militants.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 11:34 AM

I gather most were Gadaffi loyalists.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 02:17 PM

The latest:


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49127095#.UF3_842PUlo


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 02:30 PM

Lighter-

Interest update; it overlaps with the Al Jazeera report but provides a little more information.

I'm not sure that I agree with akenaton assessment:

"I gather most were Gadaffi loyalists."

Most reporters concluded that the Ansar al-Sharia militia opposed Gadaffi.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Tony
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 02:52 PM

Yes, the militia opposed Gadaffi. Akenaton was saying that the people who burned the militia's compound were Gadaffi loyalists, perhaps implying that they did it more in revenge for Gadaffi's overthrow than for bombing the US consulate, or that if Gadaffi hadn't been overthrown Ambassador Stevens might still be alive (reflecting his earlier post about Gadaffi controlling the worst excesses of Muslim fundamentalism).


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 03:42 PM

Tony-

You're a whole lot better than I at reading akenaton's tea leaves. That would be a more consistent interpretation.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 03:59 PM

"I gather most were Gadaffi loyalists."

Which "most", aken? (Sources for "I gather", please)


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 06:47 PM

""Yes, the militia opposed Gadaffi. Akenaton was saying that the people who burned the militia's compound were Gadaffi loyalists""

Hardly likely, as thepeople who stormed the Militia compounds were a mixture of civilian protesters and police.

One of them remarked to a BBC journalists "They (the Militias) are not going to take away the freedom we gave our blood for."

Don T.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:02 AM

Was anyone reading??????
Score ANOTHER RIGHT ON CALL from GfS:

Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:17 AM

The film was a cover-up of the REAL reasons for the uprisings.
This will come out even more than it has already....you'll see!

GfS


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:09 AM

GfS-

But whose "cover-up"?

The Ansar al-Sharia militia?

The Gadaffi loyalists?

Hillary Clinton and the State Department?

The Libyan Government?

The CIA?

Coptic Christians?

Israelis?

All of the above?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:45 AM

Charley Noble: "All of the above?"

Funny you should say that....Are you insinuating that this whole thing is orchestrated??

Now for the $64,000 question..by who?..and to what end? (even though that is technically two questions).....

GfS


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:55 AM

Which uprising?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:58 AM

Hey Charley!..Lookie what I found on another thread running next to this one:

Subject: BS: the petro dollar
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 09:33 AM

(You should read his post in it's entirety, but I'm just posting this conclusion, from his post)

"1. GET THE FACTS

Critical thinking and common sense are in decline these days. Rather than just swallow what we're fed by the mainstream media, we need to question it. Most people are just unaware that 90% of all American media is controlled by six global conglomerates that also hold assets in the military complex and oil industry, and are interconnected with major banking interests."


Now of course, Bobert (and some other blind ideologues) don't think these same people don't control or influence the Democratic Party....but that's just another sink to get unclogged!

Me?...Fuck em'....The truth can be told in music, in a way that everybody gets the message, and it has NOTHING to do with 'Right or Left wing-nuts'...
...but that too, is another story.

GfS


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: bobad
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 08:46 AM

THE MYTHS OF MUSLIM RAGE


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:21 PM

That's a great article, bobad! Thanks for posting it. It gives some new perspectives on the Rushdie debacle. His responses to comments are really interesting, as well. He says:


"The political sphere has in recent decades become hollowed out and ideological divides have been all but erased. As the politics of ideology has given way to the politics of identity, so social solidarity has come increasingly to be defined not in political terms – as collective action in pursuit of certain political ideals – but in terms of culture. And increasingly, as the political has eroded, so faith has come to be an anchor for cultural identity."

That's an insight that goes well beyond Islam, and extends to the Red
State/Blue State divisions in the US.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 05:35 PM

The film's producer is, apparently, wanted on some federal bad check charges, so his film making career may be on hold for a while.

Several of the actors in the fimlm are suing him. Apparently he gave them a different scrip, then dubbed over the dialog.

Finally, I wish somebody would understand that making a fuss only makes it worse.

Thirty people would have seen The Innocence of Muslims, if it hadn't been for the riots. The rest of us would be watching cat videos.

The Fatwa made Rushdie's book a best seller.

Jerry Fallwell sued Larry Flint for a truly vile parody that Flint published in his magazine. I know it's vile, because, thanks to the suit, I got to read the contents. If Fallwell hadn't sued, I wouldn't know thing one about the parody, because "Hustler" makes me want to take a bath.

And by the way Fallwell lost the suit.


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,giovanni
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 03:10 AM

There is no rule of law in Libya any longer.

Surely you remember - the legitimate government was ousted last year by some outsiders bombing them while they were trying to put down an unlawful revolution.

g


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: bobad
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 12:01 PM

Pakistan's former ambassador to the US, Husain Haqqani on Islam's "outrage industry": Muslim Rage Is About Politics, Not Religion


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 01:35 PM

the legitimate government that came to power in a military coup?


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Subject: RE: porn+FL Rev koran burner=ambassador killed
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 02:59 PM

Another great article, Bobad.


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