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BS: Where now Thatcher haters?

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Subject: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 12:46 PM


As I have said many times before,
to wish for the death of ANYONE, says more about the person wishing it, than the person wished upon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:09 PM

Wishing for the death of and 86 year old with no power and only vestiges of prestige seems pretty pointless. As does reacting to those wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:23 PM

I'm still with Elvis on this one.

Tramp the Dirt Down


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:25 PM

True. But on the other hand, it is possible to separate the person from the figure and I won't be shedding a tear when she goes.

As a striking miner in '84, the then Prime Minister of my country, elected by the people of the country called me and my colleagues the enemy within. Think about that. How many signatures on pieces of paper was she from being another Stalin? For her sake, she should be long gone when the documents are released showing whether the sinking of The belgrano was a military or political decision.

Most ex miners have dodgy knees, me included. So it doesn't matter whether she gets a state funeral, doesn't matter whether she gets to have her tomb in Westminster Abbey etc just so long as said tomb has a sprung dance floor in recognition of our knees.

I like champagne and there are always a few nice bottles in the bottom of my wine cooler. However, I always ensure there are at least two bottles there in case I need them on the same day. One bottle is always called Maggie and the other Arthur....

No, I won't celebrate her death. I won't mourn the old witch either. I've moved on and am busy in my own little way (regulating health and social care) trying to help the plight of the old, infirm and ill who need every bit of help they can get in the post Th*tcher days, ever since she convinced people there was no such thing as society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:37 PM

Are you saying the people who DON'T live in a dumbfuckistan elected a beast like Thatcher? LOL!!

How could that be????


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Phil
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:42 PM

Maggie rescued our Country from the union barons - thank God she did.

Phil*


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: pdq
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 01:50 PM

Let's see... Thatcher gets the blame for health problems caused by mining and get the blame for closing mines, meaning that fewer people had to suffer from mine-related health problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:02 PM

Very simple - celebrating her death will be relevant, so let her just be forgotten as a nobody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:30 PM

Thatcher fervently embraced the philosophy of neo-liberal, free market economics (as has every politician since). We're now seeing the consequences of that fatuous, self-serving, greed-soaked ideology.

Thatcher was/is a Tory - so you'd expect her to stand up for, and support, greed and selfishness. But Blair was a Labour Prime Minister and, in theory, should have been working for the good of all. What did he do when him and his party came to power? Why, they fervently embraced neo liberal, free market economics ... which is why I hate Blair more than Thatcher ... and then there's the little matter of an illegal war and etc., etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:31 PM

Sabotage Times


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:33 PM

Why blame Thatcher?.....you all vote for the capitalist system don't you?
Mrs Thatcher did what she had to do as a servant of that system....we were becoming uncompetitive, so all the old manufacturing and mining had to go....and Thatcher held the line....for a little time.
With the advent of Blair we started the credit scam, which most of us believed would never end...but end it did and we can all now share in the end product.

Of course we could have rejected Thatcher and her pretty boy, but that would have meant upsetting the system and you WOULDN'T have liked that!!

You want it all.....and we end up with nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:45 PM

Thatcher and her ilk thought that British coal was uneconomic. So it was if you buy Colombian coal which is dug by children. Add in the costs of decommissioning our mines and putting the miners on the dole and it doesn't make much economic sense. But you can't sell an industry that makes a loss, can you?

But what happened to the great times we were promised when we became an oil-exporting country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 02:55 PM

Australian coal mostly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM

She's a senile old woman now, not worthy of my hatred anymore.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 03:53 PM

i love my country and hate what thatcher and her followers have done to it. whether anyone wants her dead or not - it will happen. when the time comes, whether i want to have a smile on my face and a spring in my step or not - it too will happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 04:17 PM

What brought this thread on?

No point in wasting energy on her. The blame lies with the MPs in the Tory party who betrayed their more decent traditions by putting her at their head and supporting her on her mission of destruction - and of course those ordinary voters (never a majority) who backed her.

But I'd agree that the real betrayal was that by Tony Blair, and his acolytes and sycophants, who chose to complete what Thatcher left unfinished.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 04:40 PM

I dont think Thatcher would ever have allowed the financial scam presided over by Blair and Brown.

She would have realised that it meant destruction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 05:57 PM

Hello Sailor!

Yeah, the people of UK voted for Th*tcher and in 1979 an alternative to the winter of discontent seemed a good idea. Just like Bliar was a good idea 18 years later.

However, the inmates of Dumbfuckistan vote, as far as I can tell, for Jesus. Luckily, there are enough residents of USA to help stop a tea party theocracy.

She wasn't evil. still isn't. She was a tool of Barber, Joseph, Ridley and other incompetent fools who couldn't control her in the way they felt they could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 06:36 PM

Don't be stupid ake. She would have let it run in the name of freedom of choice.

Don't be stupid Mither wither newname, she was evil.

I wish her to suffer before death until she has suffered as much as the many she caused to suffer. And to twist in the fires of hell thereafter. In eternity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 07:27 PM

Yes of course. When the British do it, it is reasonable. When Americans do it is because they are stupid. Sounds like Mather blather to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Tiger
Date: 07 Aug 12 - 09:01 PM

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:52 AM

British Coal £250 per ton
Australian open mined coal delivered to the UK £8 per ton

Which do you buy if you wish your industries to be competitive?

British Coal, Steel, Shipbuilding, Automotive Industry - all were on their knees long before Margaret Thatcher came along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:48 AM

She and her offspring are arrogant blots on the landscape.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:55 AM

No Bridge, she wasn't evil she was given free rein to act out her fantasies. That's why opposition has the longer title of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. Because all those centuries ago, it became recognised that policies require scrutiny. Th*tcher was given an easy ride by honourable principled but ultimately weak Michael Foot and well meaning modernising but not trusted by the people Neil Kinnock.

Hello Sailor! Goodbye Sailor! Come back when you have read and understood the study paper.

Speaking however as a dirty rotten stinking capitalist, er.....    Actually, it was better for the economy to subsidise British Coal and British Steel. Even good old all American yee haa! McGregor who she brought in to close them accepted that the knock on effect of keeping the coal and steel communities in work more than covered the cost of subsidy.

But as I said before, in her eyes there was no such thing as society. So as the pits closed, government investment in the areas could be seen not as pump priming communities but building new and larger courts, prisons and police stations. Oh, and saving money by putting benefits offices and job centres together. Always a bit suspicious of peverse incentives.......

So, as I said above. So long as her tomb has a sprung dance floor I'll be happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:39 AM

Good Heavens. A post from Bozo and a post from Mither with which I agree!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:00 AM

Doctrinaire (Blind) socialists are a very unforgiving lot, it would seem ;)
Surely to feel superior to your opposition, it is not necessary to hate them?
Or is it an innate inferiority complex that drives such derision?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:10 AM

You agree with most of mine, which I do find somewhat disturbing Bridge....

John, not only blind doctrinaire socialists but dirty rotten stinking capitalists like me too.

I suppose by the logic of your post, European Jews a couple of generations back had a similar inferiority complex that could be pointed out by your argument?

(There, you can't beat a subject such as Th*tcher to bring out the Godwin principle....   )


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:15 AM

Teribus, it had fuck all to do with the price of coal, it was Thatchers paranoid hatred of trade unions, she deliberately set out to destroy the NUM, she paid that wanker McDonald more than it would have cost to settle the dispute in the unions favour.

As right wing and as wrong as ever teribus.



Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:24 AM

We simply let history judge. In fact it already is. Maybe you should try reading some, John, such as 'Ill Fares the Land' by Tony Judt, hardly a left-wing firebrand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:30 AM

Did not the NUM in particular, and the Trades Unions in general, not set out to destroy her, and her government?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:31 AM

"Are you saying the people who DON'T live in a dumbfuckistan elected a beast like Thatcher? LOL!!

How could that be????"


Well Jack, the same way you dopey buggers elected bastards like Reagan and Dubya (twice each, IIRC). Welcome to Dumbfuckistan.

People in glasshouses, my friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:44 AM

Maggie wanted revenge on the NUM for the winter of discontent that got Edward Heath out of office , and Bloody Scargill was just as Pig Headed as she was with his Hard Left views ! BOTH of them were wrong , but wishing death on an old woman is pointless.
I will NOT celebrate when she dies , nor will I mourn her ! And the same goes for Arthur Scargill .


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: banjoman
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 06:54 AM

Totally agree with Leadfingers. I worked as a Trade Union Officer during the Thatcher period and lost my job directly as a result of actions taken by her government. I had to spend years trying to get another job,
I could go on at length. However, I would never wish illness or pain on another human being regardless of how much I disagree with them. Let the old lady die in peace.
Comments above go for Scargill as well
I wont mourn their passing


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:09 AM

All right thinking people should hate the rich who steal from the poor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:29 AM

She was a very vindictive person as Leadfingers says above, she also punished the Scots for not returning any Tory MPs by inflicting the poll tax on them first, it caused her downfall eventually but I too would wish her no harm now.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:39 AM

took quite a lot of creative accounting to make up that £250. Building useless new facilities, paying consultants like Macregor, training teams of accountants - also English coal was deep mine coal. English miners used to have a word they dig from open cast - they called it shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:42 AM

she deliberately set out to destroy the NUM, she paid that wanker McDonald more than it would have cost to settle the dispute in the unions favour.
But if she had caved in, it may have cost less then, but the unions would have come back for more.

As Kipling expressed it:

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:53 AM

If anyone has a party to celebrate her death, I'd welcome an invite!

It's not like it can hurt her, after all she will be dead and the dead don't know too much. But just like the function funerals perform, it would be a ritual of catharsis for the living.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 09:43 AM

"it would be a ritual of catharsis for the living"

Her spectacular fall from grace when her own party colleagues stripped her from power - then later their own eventual crushing at the 1997 UK wide election should be ample catharsis! Thatcher's legacy in Scotland was that the Conservative Party went from being the main opposition in Scotland (and it hadn't been so long since it was the only party to actually gain a majoroty of the vote in Scotland)to a party who won no seats at all in one election! Jumping with glee on someone's grave, especially when they have long ceased to be significant, isn't really dignified. Just saying...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:04 AM

She remains the lady who befriended a mass murderer, helped him escape justice and would have adopted his techniques if she thought she could have got away with it.
She helped make Britain what it is today - a divided nation and a haven for avaricious bankers, financeers and incompetent and corrupt politicians.
I thank her for the pleasure she gave me to see her drive away from Downing Street for the last time, in tears, like a child deprived of its favourite toy - a treasured moment
May she enjoy the rest of her days - somewhere where she can do no more damage.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MikeL2
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:14 AM

hi

Maggie Thatcher ??? Who is she..????

Move on for Christ sake !!

Cheers

Mikel2


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:30 AM

I've grown up and matured sufficiently
not to care any more about partying & pissing on her grave.

But I am definitely looking forward to the sheer joy
of watching Cameron and Clegg writhing in torment
through the final terminal diseased days of their squalid coalition....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Silas
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 10:51 AM

Just wish she would get on with it - I'll be gone before her at this rate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:01 AM

Gordon Brown removed the control of banking. It was one of his first acts as chancellor. That has a lot more to do with the financial mess we are in now, than anything Thatcher did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:08 AM

True, John. But don't spoil their innocent fun. Blaming poor old Mrs T for everything that has ever gone wrong from the Fall Of The Roman Empire to Wotsit's failure to get Bronze in the final of the You-know-wot the day before yesterday is their hobby, dontcha-kno! Don't be a party-pooper, now!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:13 AM

"Jumping with glee on someone's grave, especially when they have long ceased to be significant, isn't really dignified."

Well, I don't plan on jumping or indeed pissing on her grave wherever that may be. But if I actually cared about what other's believed constituted dignified behaviour, then I would no doubt have to quit most if not all of my favoured pastimes!

Fortunately for me, I don't give a flying one about other people's prudish meddling injunctions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:34 AM

Going to buy a new pair of dancing shoes, as it happens. They will look good sat next to the champagne all ready for action.

The NUM didn't set out to defeat any government. Scargill, Capstick, McGahey and other "leaders" may have wanted something other than a democracy but they were ignorant idiots who thought they were Che Guevara on a mission, as the electrorate can't be trusted. After all, they reported that every Yorkshire area pit voted to strike. Interesting as the one I was at voted by a huge majority to carry on the overtime ban as the stock piles were too high and the overtime ban was getting McGregor back to the table, till he thought he could push us out on strike.

They weren't The NUM. The members were, me included. Even if our delegate did do a wicked thing and say we voted differently to the way we did. The NUM had its funds sequestrated for that. Despite everything, I thought it was right too, as the leadership couldn't be trusted with the votes of its members.

Rather than represent the electorate, Th*tcher used the stupidity of the donkeys leading lions above to destroy communities.

MikeL2 asks why everybody doesn't move on? Most of us have, but as the old bitch is about to kick her clogs according to many reports, it is a fitting time to remind us of her contribution to distrust in democracy, example of why ideology should never dictate policy and proof that we need competent leaders because she demonstrates it is Jim Hacker, not Sir Humphrey who can make or break peoples' life.

Anyway, if we wait for her to pop off before we remember her wickedness, we'll be accused of not respecting the dead. So I have no issue with disrespecting the dangerous would be Napoleon now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:47 AM

The NUM didn't set out to defeat any government. Scargill, Capstick, McGahey and other "leaders" may have wanted something other than a democracy but they were ignorant idiots who thought they were Che Guevara on a mission, as the electrorate can't be trusted. After all, they reported that every Yorkshire area pit voted to strike. Interesting as the one I was at voted by a huge majority to carry on the overtime ban as the stock piles were too high and the overtime ban was getting McGregor back to the table, till he thought he could push us out on strike.

They weren't The NUM. The members were, me included. Even if our delegate did do a wicked thing and say we voted differently to the way we did. The NUM had its funds sequestrated for that. Despite everything, I thought it was right too, as the leadership couldn't be trusted with the votes of its members.


So the Tories then insisted in bringing in secret ballots for unions so that you, the rank and file members, might actually regain control of your own unions.
Until that point the government dealt with the officials that the members elected, such as Scargill, Capstick, McGahey.
Why blame the Tories for the mendacity of the leaders you elected?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:17 PM

BTW, we presume she will be buried with full pomp & state honours
in a prominent public cemetry...

So who's gonna foot the bill for permanent protective security presence and surveillance of her memorial tomb ????

Maybe it would be more cost effective to consider quietly disposing of her remains
in a secret unmarked grave somewhere remote and inaccessible..

Like what ended up being done with Gaddafi...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:02 PM

An ex-firefighter friend of mine (who's from Scotland) said he was very proud about throwing an egg at her car when she was visiting the land to the north of hers. He was five years old at the time. I doubt he'd cross the road to spit or piss on her grave because he'd deem both to be a waste of time and body substance. Fact is, we all have to stop voting for glitz and promises. In the words of George Bush, "I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office."


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:24 PM

Had a look up the threads and can't see where anyone was blaming the Tories for the trade union issues? Especially not me.

I was in full agreement with Tim Egger (think that was his name?) the energy minister who pushed the secret ballot vote through Parliament. I may not be a Tory but even then, I like to think that like more people than politicians are comfortable with, I agreed with good policies even if the party would never overall get my vote.   Anyway, the Labour front bench agreed so not sure anybody other than disgraced Trots like Scargill disagreed.

Mind you if Th*tcher liked ballots so much, what price The GLC?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:21 PM

The Big Bang took place in 1986. Thatcher was not overthrown until 1990. Brown's formalisation of deregulation with the FSA took place against a background of intensive and frenetic lobbying by bankers for less regulation (and howls of cuntservatives to the same effect).

The death of sensible banking was not because of Gordon Brown but because he was not strong enough to resist the conspiracy against the public interest rooted in capitalism (and the Greenspan theory).


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:00 PM

Most of us were culpable....how many can honestly say they did not jump aboard HMS Credit?......I can, for money means almost nothing to me, I want or need very little materially, I have a very basic house, an old second hand car.....as I live in a remote area.
If I lived in town I would not own a car at all.

I have the good luck to have lived in the same place all my life, it is extremely beautiful....I love music, poetry and books.

Who needs lots of money?......I count myself blessed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 12 - 06:57 PM

well bully for you Ake. but most of us were in the position of living within our means or having no cream buns for a period of about thirty years.

And you may well decide that you don't need cream buns, however what gives you the moral authority to decide that your family will go bunless?

Bugger it. flash the plastic, and bite the bullet at some later date. No use saying - I would have been a genius guitar player if I could have afforded that Gibson guitar. Find out by buying the bloody guitar. then at least you've been a man who once owned a Gibson guitar.

Sod prudence, and financial probity - in the long run we're all dead. Grab what's going - while you still have blood coursing through your veins - it doesn't last for ever. Nothing does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:30 AM

Hi Al... didn't mean to sound superior.
But I think the simple life might suit most people better than the rat race?
I've got an old kiso suzuki which I bought for a tenner years ago, and it still looks and sounds great.....I mean the tone, not the poor attempts I make at playing!

But being able to play a few tunes which are recognisible, is one of my joys. I am always amazed that I can manage it.

One things for sure the template of the last few decades is broken and we all must change our outlook on life.
We have to start dismantling the wasteful....and criminal capitalist system now. but we are still being assured by politicians and "liberals" that it can be fixed!

Perhaps we need another Thatcher....hopefully of a different political persuasion....   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:46 AM

Perhaps everyone isn't as lucky as you ake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:40 AM

I think you were lucky with that guitar - I ahve seen many Suzuki guitars (not all the same maker) and most ahve been delights to hear. But you do have a computer...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:48 AM

I agree with Ake. Growing up a poor kid (council house, single Mum on benefits) in a highly affluent Tory area, I learned not to aspire after the consumerism and materialism of my peers. Instead I learned to despise the empty shallowness that such lifestyles represent, and I still do. I read Marx at sixteen during my A levels, and still believe he had the right of it.

My home is filled with hand me downs and second hand finds. The only valuable items I own, were saved for. My Mac took me a year. My camera took me two years!

I don't believe in credit unless it's needed to pay the rent, and if credit is needed to pay the rent then there's something wrong - probably with the high rents imposed by property owners that the working poor can't afford.

I loathe the materialism Thatcher issued in and Blair consolidated. I'm very much tempted to get away from Daily Mail England and move to Scotland before the Scots gain independence and it become harder for us sassenachs to gain entry!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Cs
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 08:00 AM

As for grabbing whats going. Probably not a bad idea, copy the banks! Max out the credit card then scarper (as the previous tenants of our current home appear to have done, at least if the debtors letters we receive for them are anything to go by!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 01:42 PM

Richard....if it wasn't for Mudcat and another couple of forums, I would have binned it long ago......still might, if I get any more aggro!

Cost £80 on ebay.....dont know if it was a bargain :0(


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: sapper82
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 03:56 PM

To cut and pates from a post of mine elsewhere on the net:-

The Steel Industry in 1979 required a bailout of £1.8billion from the taxpayer to cover losses. Given that the price of a pint of ale was about 25p to 30p and is now well in excess of £3.00, that is the equivalent of over £20billion today.

The steel industry had VAST over production problems no one was previously prepared to face. Most of the production at plants like Ravenscraig was going into storage in open air stockyards and either waiting up to 24 months for dispatch to Vauxhaul, BL or Fords, or being scrapped and going back into the smelters.

That habit of sending steel sheet out to the customer that had been stored for so long was one of the causes of the poor reputation the British Car Industry had for rust.

Going to alternative suppliers, who were rolling to order, during the 1980 steel strike opened the customers eyes to the poor quality product British Steel was providing because of the stockpiling policy and was the death knell of large parts of the industry.

What was left was a much smaller, but much healthier steel industry more matched to it's market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: sapper82
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:11 PM

And to comment further, despite the Left's hatred of Margaret thatcher and the Tory's tag of being called "The Nasty Party," it's ironic that, amongst the drivers, cleaners, table servers and other support functions at No.10 and Westminster, Tories tend to have a better reputation for showing a great deal more respect and consideration than their successors.
Lady Thatcher herself was very well liked by the staff at No.10 in stark contrast to Gordon Brown!

Perhaps the Tories are viewed as being "nasty" in the same way that a dentist, having to carry out painfull treatment to remove or repair a tooth after years of neglect and misuse can be viewed as nasty?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 09 Aug 12 - 07:20 PM

sounds like one or two gross generalisations here - some tories are probably quite good to their servants. but them bullingdon club types seem a bit rude. and beer is not well over £3 here - a pint of jennings bitter -£2.70


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 02:49 AM

Out drinking in Mansfield with my sons last Saturday. (Celebrating that I am to become a Granddad,) and was drinking a nice hand pull of something or other for £1.80 a pint.

The barmaid was nice, polite and courteous. Wonder if she used to work at No.10?

zzzzzzzzzzz

(CLANG!!!). Just pointing out I have been to No.10 a few times, receptions and once to a meeting. The staff under Bliar certainly seemed happy. They didn't flinch if I raised my arm too quickly or seemed impoverished? Presumably they were the same people employed by the same department and managed by the same system as under any ruddy Prime Minister. They don't work for the PM, they work for the civil service. Ministers and advisors are the ones getting the likes of Broon's hair dryer. Newspapers may report staff attitudes to ministers but staff are bound by The Official Secrets Act and a contractual code of conduct, so whilst views will out by heresay and indiscretion, I wouldn't use them myself to judge how a PM ran the bloody country.

Not too sure of the relevance of your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 03:25 AM

Where now...though?

Perhaps we cou;d form a social club and have outings to Blackpool on the bus. On the back seat we could have a sing song - Which side are you on, Glad to be Gay, Things Can Only get Better, that sort of thing.

As we are all socialists, we could have crates of champagne, and frequent stops for having a wee.

We could have fancy dress nights - The general Galtieri costume being particularly popular. A quiz night called 'On Yer Bike!'. An Irish Reconciliation night with the IRA, where we tell Frank Carson jokes about thick paddies. A race night, where we suck up to the BNP.

Really hating Thatcher has so much more mileage in it - its a bit like the UK coal industry used to be - two hundred years of supplies just waiting to be dug up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 03:58 AM

Don't dig the bugger up!

You'll ruin the sprung dance floor Al......


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 05:59 PM

In some ways she [Thatcher] reminded me of Golda Meir. Heartless bitch, but very smart gal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM

Naah, Bruce- she's more like Ronnie Reagan without the senile dementia.

Making her a lot more dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 08:19 AM

Thatcher was never really clever, the right wing tends to eschew people who actually think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 08:48 AM

I believe she was the first, and so far only PM to hold a science degree.
That was gained, long before the recent dumbing down of education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 08:53 AM

She bade us rejoice over the outrageous deaths of hundreds of young men on the General Belgrano, for which she was personally responsible. She gave succour to a vicious dictator and friend of hers, General Pinochet, who was responsible for tens of thousands of deaths of his "opponents". There is plenty of reason to hate, and hate is not always misguided. I don't care whether she's alive or dead. That's worse than wishing her dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 08:57 AM

Is "Where now Thatcher haters?" sung to the same tune as "What Now My Love" ?

Scansion's a bit tight, but it's doable.
So what are the rest of the lyrics ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 09:07 AM

I know she was a scientist and that she invented Mr. Whippy ice cream, in my view about the only thing she deserves credit for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 09:29 AM

"the right wing tends to eschew people who actually think."
.,,.,.

Whereas the left is peopled exclusively by intellectual giants...

teeheeteeheeteeheeteeheeteehee·hahahahahahahahaha......


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM

i'm not quite sure how to respond to the furiously intellectual point above.....however. maybe the right or well-connected don't need to be that clever to succeed, they may reach the top with a bit of charm and a lively social life. not so easy for the left who - while we are past the days of workers' reading groups and pedalling to kinder scout trespasses while discussing marx and cuba in a cloud of pipe smoke, do need to work harder and be brighter than the tory types. relatively easy for a young graduate to live and find work in london if they can rely on their parents' money - otherwise its a struggle. once you realise that the rules are grossly unfair - to be 'left' is only natural for anyone with half a brain who isn't directly benefitting from the indulgence of friends of daddy.
despite asking -genuinely- for a reasoned argument from the right in favour of the current system of global capitalism and its gross injustice and inequalities, i've never seen one on here any more intellectual than 'well it's better than mao or stalin' - not good enough you twerps!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 10:35 AM

See ya later! Thatcher Hater!
In a bit! Tory Git!
See ya later! Thatcher Hater!
In a bit! Tory Git!
Can't you see that the alliance
Is nothing more, its just the same old shit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 10:53 AM

What Shimrod. And Leadfingers.

Correction T'bus: Australian coal £8.00, UK coal £0.00.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 11:17 AM

Where am I now? Right where I've been since May 1971. Just a itchin' and a scratchin' and a bustin' these goddammn' britches to dance on her grave and kick the headstone to bits.

"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope." At the end of the barrel of a gun no doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM

"That was gained, long before the recent dumbing down of education."

What dumbing down are you referring to? What evidence can you supply to support this statement. Would it be sufficient to gain you at least a 2.1 in a degree course?

Having closely followed my son through a History and Politics Degree course I can tell you that there is no dumbing down in education at this level. (He got a high 2.1, incidentally.)

Do you think that you have the intellectual capacity to gain a good degree today? You certainly have never demonstrated this on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 12:43 PM

Ah yes, lets get personal, it's the last refuge of those lost for a decent riposte.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:17 PM

"it's the last refuge of those lost for a decent riposte."

Perhaps you'd like to supply some evidence to back up that statement. Or is it, like your previous one, simply you trying to put across your opinions as fact?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:25 PM

Oh, and I suppose your implication that anyone today can achieve an academic qualification without a lot hard work and a substantial intellect isn't incrediby insulting to people like my son. Logic obviously isn't your strong point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:39 PM

i have to confess, when it comes to thatcher logic is not my strong point. from the moment she first opened her gob in public i have had an irrationally intense hatred that overrides any rational judgment. when she was leader she was an embarrassment - shrill, ignorant and proud of the fact that she was unable to change her mind or consider the merits of any other argument other than those put in front of her limited understanding by the likes of sinister goons like friedman, joseph, pinochet and reagan. i know there are others who are equally culpable - notably bliar- but they just don't get me in the guts like she did. that gove though - he has something of the same certainty/stupidity/ridiculousness about him. and he seems like a right little tory boy creep. where now? just waiting for the party


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 01:58 PM

Sorry it's from the Telegraph:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 02:00 PM

From the Grauniad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 02:09 PM

I thought I knew what detestment of a politician meant back then. But it has taken latest crew to teach me the true meaning.

I was in the NHS back in Thatcher's reign (am I right in saying she was the first UK politician to have a brand of politics named after her? Thatcherism?). I was certainly aware what happened in the NHS and mental health back then. Community could not care less was more the branding.

But this latest lot have reached the depths of anything that could be called uncaring as I have witnessed in my life time. Daily I see what the cuts are doing to vulnerable people and our aged population. Tragedy does not come close as a descriptor. Compassion has been taken from the system with a vengeance.

Thatcher may have been wrong over certain factors to do with the Falklands. She should have been honest about the Belgrano. It was a threat: we sunk it. End of. Sad but very true. As for the loss of life. Well that is to be regretted on all sides and can never be justified. But we have been in far worse places morally since.

What happened to the miners is probably the most bitter non war scenario this country has seen in some years. Families and friends torn apart with a divide and rule strategy that caused so much death and hatred. The vestiges are still with us today. I cry when I see the end of "Brassed Off" every time because in my opinion Pete Postlethwaites words are bang on as to how the miners got treated and not just by the government. The taunting by the Police on picket lines was a very low moment in this countries Police history. It served it's purpose though in the divide and rule conditions. It was not right what some miners did but it was equally not right what some of the police did. No Police ended up in jail though. For me it was not Thatcher's war with the Falklands that ruined her image (it likely got her re-elected) it was her poll taxing compassionless war on the miners. I wonder if she ever lost one wink of sleep over the hardship she brought about to all those families?

Just like I wonder if this present crew lose any sleep over those struggling to survive now?

Hate as a word can never adequately cover the emotion that they are generating in caring people over the harm they are causing to innocent folks who have worked all their lives only to have it robbed from them now, their money, their health, their dignity. The rich get richer seems all they care about and it's all so very sad indeed :-(

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 02:13 PM

"when she was leader she was an embarrassment - shrill, ignorant and proud of the fact that she was unable to change her mind or consider the merits of any other argument other than those put in front of her limited understanding"
.,,.
Quite unlike Cockercunt, then, who is obviously a shining intellect capable of instantly evaluating objectively any argument or situation and coming to an infallible judgment.

I rarely use such locutions on this forum; but, even here, I rarely come across quite such crass conceited cuntishness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Sugarfoot jack
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM

Nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 03:32 PM

"Cockercunt,"
"In 1973 Augusto Pinochet joined a coup d'état which overthrew Allende's elected socialist government. In December 1974 the military junta appointed Pinochet as President by a joint decree, with which Air Force General Gustavo Leigh disagreed.
During his seventeen-year military regime in Chile, his security forces were responsible for the murders of 3,197 Chilean citizens. Of those, 1,100 were "disappeared" bused to death and buried in still-secret graves, or thrown from military helicopters into the Pacific Ocean. An estimated 30,000 Chileans survived imprisonment and severe torture by agents of Pinochet's secret police electric shock, beatings, near-drowning, and rape in secret detention facilities. In the mid-1970s, the Pinochet regime also organized a network of secret police agencies (given the code name Operation Condor) that coordinated the repression of groups and individuals who had been identified as opponents of the military governments of the Southern Cone (Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, and Uruguay). Condor's methods included secret surveillance, kidnapping, interrogation, torture, and terrorist attacks. International efforts to hold General Pinochet legally accountable for human rights atrocities in Chile and acts of terrorism abroad led to his arrest for crimes against humanity in London in 1998.
During his 18 months house arrest he was befriended by Mrs Thatcher – this is a description of the 1999 Conservative Party conference:
…… was a packed meeting on Wednesday evening addressed by former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, entitled "General Pinochet: the only political prisoner in Britain".
In a hall bedecked with Chilean flags, Thatcher was flanked by two Chilean senators, former chancellor Norman Lamont and Pinochet's son, Marco Antonio. Met by rapturous applause, she decried the extradition proceedings against the former dictator as "international lynch law", She described his arrest as "judicial kidnap" and the equivalent of a "police state".
Her description of Pinochet:
"I'm also very much aware that it is you who brought democracy to Chile, you set up a constitution suitable for democracy, you put it into effect, elections were held, and then, in accordance with the result, you stepped down."
General Pinochet said it was an honour to have Lady Thatcher there at the "simple house" on the estate, and thanked her for her "kindness.

There but for the grace of…. Whoever, nearly went Britain.

Thatcher's legacy:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/articles/2009/03/02/lesley_boulton_orgreave_photo_feature.shtml

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 04:02 PM

mauvepink. "But this latest lot have reached the depths of anything that could be called uncaring....."

I'm not sure what to make of that one. The years of the Thatcher regime were the most vicious I can remember in all of post war Britain. On the other hand, this latest lot are to some very limited extent constrained by the Lib-Dems. I seriously hope we never find out what can happen if Cameron and Co are ever able to govern with a tory majority.

BTW. The best thing to do with MtheGM is to ignore him. The man is incapable of saying anything beyond stringing together a load of unjustified and unjustifiable petty insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 04:43 PM

call me what you like (though it is an awkward and ugly word you have chosen) but it seems a little bit unfair to accuse me of being 'objective' -the whole point of my post (ok, rant) was to say that i was not objective or logical in my irrational feelings towards thatcher (and her friends) just how it is.....on the other hand i am quite willing to read a defence of the current system from anyone who can make one......still waiting


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 05:57 PM

Owen W: Noted. I have copied & pasted your comment to the file I keep of comments made on threads about me, favourable & otherwise. Some have called this a vanity: I prefer to think of a well-kept filing-system as a mark of efficiency.

Just for the record, here are one or two previous ones which might just demonstrate [if you are not too closed-minded to be convinced of the truth of the assertion] that your view is not entirely universal ~~~ all are fully documented by thread & contributor so their genuineness can easily be checked:~

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod - PM
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 02:52 PM
MtheGM, your posts on here (and on other threads) are shining beacons of dispassionate reasoning and fact in the midst of a sea of (mostly) fuzzy waffle.
Long may you contiunue to post on Mudcat.
=====
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 01:36 AM
Michael, your calm, reasoned and rational post is like a breath of mountain air in the fetid atmosphere of this thread.
Thank you.
==========
Subject: RE: BS: Racial stereotypes in retellings?
From: GUEST,999 - PM
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM
Michael (MtheGM) has much depth in matters folk. He's an accomplished writer and researcher, as a btw.

========
Regards ~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 07:16 PM

Quite unlike Cockercunt, then, who is obviously a shining intellect capable of instantly evaluating objectively any argument or situation and coming to an infallible judgment.

I rarely use such locutions on this forum; but, even here, I rarely come across quite such crass conceited cuntishness.


You're a disgrace, old boy, and a hypocrite to boot. I seem to recall your high-minded "righteous indignation" a few weeks ago arising from far milder criticism of your good self than this. I recommend a cold bath and another bottle or two of the cheap whisky that brought about this tirade. You never know - it might just keep you quiet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 07:25 PM

Thatcher may have been wrong over certain factors to do with the Falklands. She should have been honest about the Belgrano. It was a threat: we sunk it. End of. Sad but very true. As for the loss of life. Well that is to be regretted on all sides and can never be justified. But we have been in far worse places morally since.
With respect, you seriously need to review this. The Belgrano was not a threat when Thatcher ordered its sinking (an event which she encouraged us to rejoice over - remember?) And you sound just like the most cynical of cynical politicians when you "regret" the "loss of life" (aka "needless slaughter??"). Every one of those hundreds of young men had a mother, you know. Your final sentence of the above quote would be a challenge to enlarge upon too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 07:26 PM

Only the first two lines of the above should have been in italics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 08:54 PM

Yes, I understood the accidental italics Steve. That's fine

Well you make of my words as you will but they were heart meant and not cynical like politicians. Any loss of life on any side is always bad and I never see war as a justification. It's never the politicians sons is it? Yes, I am aware they all had mothers on all sides.

At that time I enlisted to join the Navy as a medic. Passed all the tests. Was only then told I was too old. I did not want to fight but I considered I had skills that could have been used to save life (on either side). I do not consider that action cynical like the words of politicians. I was fully aware men were dying.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 09:12 PM

I can't see that anyone knew what Thatcher knew at the time.

And, seriously now, what decisions are made and what decisions are dictated?

My Prime Minister tells me in the newspaper that Canada is in Afghanistan to "fight the Taliban'. What a load of fuckin horseshit. Yet he says it in the newspaper and on radio and on TV... with A STRAIGHT FACE... LIKE IT'S TRUE!!! Of course, that begs the question, "Who is stunned as me arse?" It ain't Harper. He is just a lacky. It's the Canucks that allow the bullshit at the polls.

Sooo, give Maggie a break eh? She didn't pull trhe trigger without some "help". Yes, it's far more complicated... IF ya know everything from hindsight ad ya don't understand or believe in field testing weapons and battle training troops (something the Brits and her allies have been at for well over a thousand years to ensure your safety and standard of living).

Are thee actions right and good in a strict moral sense? Maybe not. I am just glad Beth ain't pissed at me. Your mileage may vary. Good luck with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Aug 12 - 10:22 PM

most of us were not culpible for the banking crisis. the culpible are the neo con free marketeers who sold the pie in the sky and thatcher was the most prominent of those.

in canada we had the liberals in power and the finance minister paul martin (briefly prime minister) and the pm jean chretien refused the banking and neo con lobby to deregulate. surprize none of our banks needed bailouts and none went bankrupt.

the present conservatives lobbied for the deregulation, and got the gift of a stable economy which they are wasdting on the two largest deficits in canadian history. that'[s the double think of the noe cons. the liberals ran eleven surplusses in a row.they paid down out debt by twenty per cent and the present government has pissed that away on fighter jets and prisons.

more inportantly though thatcher authorized torture in northern ireland. she was a monster in power from a long line of british governing monsters who allowed torture ethnic cleansing and starvation to be used as political tools. her minions developed the water boarding techniques and taught them to the americans. the noe cons abandoned a holistic view of society in favour of the rich and powerfull and they brought us back to inhuman abused that were briefly internationally outlawed.

in addition her economic success was only possible due to oil revenues that are now running out. then the problems of the real economy will become apparant to all. she was the first of the neo cons to sacrifice the manufacturing economy to create a financial sector dominated parasitic economy. now the parasitic economy is done and the manufacturing is gone.


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Subject: The best thing tRE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:24 AM

"The best thing to do with MtheGM is to ignore him. The man is incapable of saying anything beyond stringing together a load of unjustified and unjustifiable petty insults." Owen Woodson
.,,,,,

A real challenge there. Have been agonising all night to think of an insult petty enough for the fatuous Owen Woodson. Call him a Spurs supporter, perhaps? Or accuse him of thinking Thomas Mann a greater novelist than Jane Austen [assuming him ever to have heard of either]? Or perhaps just call him Gogglehead or Lollylegs?

But I have just thought of the perfect one.

Owen Woodson is an even more stupid and vindictive nonentity than Steve Shaw.
And ~ to avoid drift ~ neither of them fit even to be allowed to breathe the same air as Margaret Thatcher.

There!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 01:39 AM

100
Belgrano WAS a threat to the UK service people who were Thatcher's first responsibility.
I would not like to be faced with such a decision.
It was based on the advice of the military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:10 AM

Re the necessity of sinking the Belgrano ~~ what is the saying, just remind us, beginning "He who fights & runs away..."?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 03:16 AM

Mike, you've obviously got something going when it comes to blondes....Ruth Ellis, and now Margaret Thatcher.

I understand totally..... with me it was Barbara Windsor and Dusty Springfield, Mary Travers...andto a certain extent Jet Harris.

I don't like to think of you calling people cunts. You'll be shouting at people in the park as you eat your pasty, and going round with a dog on a piece of string - not the way to go at our age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 03:31 AM

"It was based on the advice of the military"
With a little help from her friend.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/sinking-the-belgrano-the-pinochet-connection-7609047.html
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 03:48 AM

Actually, Al ~~ I make it a policy & a principle to avoid expletives far more than almost anyone else on this forum. Must have been peculiarly incensed, but hard now, even after so short an interval, to recall quite why. I do occasionally suffer from pain from a bit of inflammation left by an otherwise long-cured gastric ulcer I suffered from 30 years ago, which always has a baleful effect on my irritability-factor: maybe that was bugging me. Sorry all...

Re blondes: my wife Emma is a blonde, and my first wife Valerie was of lightish complexion; funny really because my ideal physical type has always been slender very dark brunettes ~~ Audrey Hepburn or Sophia Loren or Jane Russell rather than Marilyn Monroe. Neither Thatcher nor Ruth Ellis [whom I met but once, after all] had any physical attraction for me.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:21 AM

Somebody once said "It's the economy stupid".

All things political are done in its name.
Mrs Thatcher served the system well and provided us with a few years of faux prosperity, her policies were continued by messers(not a typo) Blair and Brown, but most of us knew where the credit boom was leading......now we have it in spades, all the horrors described by MP, and far worse to come....beleve me!

Every set of politicians from the sixties onwards have been labouring to ensure not the wellbeing of the British people, but the survival of a system which is completely unsustainable in the social world of "entitlement" which "liberalism" has created.

Forget the hate figures of the past, there is nothing new to learn there.

We must go back to the drawing board....it will be hard...i reckon a couple of generations and there will be no time for "liberal lunacy"

Unless of course.....you have an alternative?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:58 AM

Well I often call people cunts (usually in my car). But somehow - i don't like to think of you doing it, as I feel that you're a much nicer person than I am.

with great affection

al


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:11 AM

Well, thanks, Al. Don't quite know what to say...

As one of the Nat Service generation, that sort of verbal obloquy comes fairly instinctively to me. And when I first joined the Cat I adopted much of the contentious obscenity that so many posts were couched in. Then it occurred to me that this was both unworthy, and weakening to one's argument; so I explicitly forswore it in a post 3 years back at least, and have stuck to this resolve since [tho not, of course, like you, Al, necessarily when driving!]. Sorry again that a bit of my nerve-pain should have knocked me off the self-chosen course whereby "scoundrel" or "rascal", of at worst "swine" or "rat", would be the lowest level of abuse to which I would permit myself to sink.

Apologies to all again ~~ esp to pete cockermouth. Very sorry, pete!

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:44 AM

"Owen Woodson is an even more stupid and vindictive nonentity than Steve Shaw"

Like I said, "The best thing to do with MtheGM is to ignore him. The man is incapable of saying anything beyond stringing together a load of unjustified and unjustifiable petty insults".

Of course I've heard of Thomas Mann and Jane Austen, and read both of them. I read a biography of Beethoven once as well. He called a critic a double barreled arsehole. MtheGM used to be a critic, did he not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:08 AM

Still a critic, dash-it, even at my advanced age ~~ google emls [Early Modern Literary Studies], for which I still do a column for each issue on renaissance drama [Shax &c] in Cambridge. But denouncing critics as a race rather beneath even your usual standard of invective, surely? Esp quoting so notoriously touchy an authority as old Ludwig Van.

Of course I really knew you had read Austen & Mann, Owen. I detest what Julian Fellowes described in one of his fine novels as "The kind of person who insults you and then says, Can't you take a joke", but don't push that particular bit of backdoor evasion too far. Doesn't do for you to be too touchy, you know, or you will knock all the sweetness out of the joke, my duckling. After all, you are not Beethoven, nor were meant to be...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:28 AM

Will someone tell me what MtheGM has been smoking? I want some of it.

I never said I was Beethoven. He was after all rather better at knocking out the odd symphony than I. Nor did I denounce critics as a race. They are not. Nor are they a species, although I understand a fair number of them have been stuffed and mounted in their time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:35 AM

I should have added that I never insult anyone unless I mean it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 07:02 AM

I smoked my last small cigar on 3 April 1975. Have not smoked a thing since. So you're welcome to all I smoke.

Of course you don't, Owen my dear chap. "Spiteful" was the word I used before, which seems to describe you well enough. Can't imagine why you take such pride in making yourself so obnoxious; but I suppose we all have our hobbies.

Not even as if your views are even general. Take a look at Eliza's post of this very morning on the currently going on 'BS:People's Impressions' thread. You are, of course, as entitled to your opinions on any subject, including that of me, as anyone else. But they are somewhat restricted to you & Shaw, is my [I think not entirely self-conceited] impression.

So groove on, my dear fellow. Go on long enough &, in the poetic old phrase, I expect you'll ultimately poison yourself with your own sour spit.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 07:13 AM

Gosh, "Michael," you do sound scared. Just walk away slowly from the thread. No-one will follow you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 09:48 AM

Jim, your Independent link is compelling evidence that Belgrano was a very real threat to the task force.
Perhaps you would have sacrificed thousands of British sailors just because the Argentine Naval communications were intercepted by Chile, but an elected PM would never have been forgiven by the British people.

"a member of the War Cabinet has revealed how Argentine orders intercepted by Chile convinced the British that their enemies' prize cruiser had to be sunk"

"It was unanimous that if we had let the Belgrano go and it had sunk a carrier, we would all have been finished. We would all have had to stand down, if we had presided over the death of hundreds of British sailors and had the chance to avert it.

"What we didn't realise [was] the Argentinian destroyers took off immediately and they didn't search for survivors. They thought they would all get sunk..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:46 AM

"compelling evidence that Belgrano was a very real threat to the task force."
I was pointing out the liason between Thatcher and a fascist butcher - whatever I might think of the sinking of the Belgrano it is irrefutable evidence that Thatcher's friendshhip with a mass murderer and her turning a Tory Party conference into a mini Nuremberg Rally was an indication that she was a wannabe fascist dictator herself.
Thatcher was a politiical thug who sucked up to political thugs guilty of extreme human rights abuses, and that is what those who still brown-nose her are defending - albeit with their silence
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:58 AM

I now see a man smaller but more conceited than I thought - one who collects and stores everything said about him - even comments on an internet forum. That's really rather sad. Even sadder than my finding that I agree in some respects with Olly and Ake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 11:08 AM

The Belgrano...

If you shoot someone in the back, it isnt easy convincing the police he was attacking you. They may work on the idea he was running away from the confrontation. We werent at war with Argentina by the way. Our rules of engagement were defensive, and unless and until Parliament are informed otherwise, preemptive attacks are, by our own laws, war crimes. Doing dirty deeds on behalf of a bloodstained dictator over the border is not a legitimate defence measure.

But like I said, so long as her tomb has a sprung dance floor and so long as she doesn't die the same day as Scargill, (I don't like champagne THAT much) I'll be content.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 11:59 AM

Doesn't Bridge keep files? Why, what an efficient professional he must be!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:33 PM

Our rules of engagement were defensive
No they were not.
I was pointing out the liason between Thatcher and a fascist butcher
Galtieri was a fascist butcher, and Thatcher went to war against him, and he is gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 12:49 PM

Are we nearly there yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 01:09 PM

I always feel a little sorry for folks who use women's genitalia as terms of abuse....without c****s we would not be here?.....a very useful, multi-purpose piece of apperatus in my opinion.

Using the word as a term of abuse, often says more about the abuser than the abused.

I'm sad that you continually view me through one distorted lens Richard, I find most of your input very witty, often insightful, and find myself in agreement with much that you present here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 01:12 PM

"Galtieri was a fascist butcher,"
Which makes two fascist butchers and a wannabe fascist butcher who befriends war criminals, helps them escape justice and even puts her party at his disposal to respactabalise his butchery - what's your point?
"and he is gone. "
So are the 3,197 victims of Thatcher's friend's regime. Luckily the "30,000 Chileans who survived imprisonment and severe torture by agents of Pinochet's secret police electric shock, beatings, near-drowning, and rape in secret detention facilities" hung around long enough to provide ample evidence of Pinochet's war crimes - and Thatcher's idea of "democracy". Are you really suggesting she was right ('right' being the operative word) to cherry-pick her favourite fascist buther as a role model?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:14 PM

Keith,

With respect;

You can say our rules of engagement were not defensive as much as you like, but on this; repeating it doesn't make it true.

The rules of engagement were under "green card." This is the same set of rules as used in Northern Ireland at the same time. If you accept The Falklands as being offensive, you have to say that Northern Ireland was too.

And that generates a whole concert of new songs.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:34 PM

without c****s we would not be here

Crunts? Counts? Clunts? Chairs? Cheers? Chains? Crisps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 02:50 PM

Re the Belgrano. My thoughts on this are, had it been the other way round, the Argies would have done the same to one of ours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 03:19 PM

Sorry Steve....my old eyes are not as good as they were...but I'm sure you know what I meant?

Re Belgrano....I think John is probably correct....I used to get all fired up about what i saw as a war crime.....but look at the even greater atrocities that were to come, under subsequent governments both Labour and Conservative.

We dont even blink an eye wnen the Chief of Staff kills thousands from his chair in the Oval office.

and this is only the beginning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM

well whatever she did, is did.

If history teaches one thing, its that the past is always open to re-interpretation.


Thomas Cromwell has always been a nasty git to the story tellers. But the historians have always had a good word for him - even the story tellers are coming round nowadays.

Historians of the future will be able to see from this thread that she was a controversial character - lots of shades of opinion.

I think maybe you had to live in a mining area to really hate her. They will never put it right, what she did. Whole communities gone. Families rent assunder. Children you thought would grow up in trade ,paying a mortgage, having a family - living on the streets, heroin freely available in every small town.

There again, I guess the Boleyn family wouldn't have had much good to say about the hero of Wolf Hall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM

The use of the 'c' word is absolutely abhorrent at all times and in all circumstances.

Michael Grosvenor Myer is an obnoxious, anally-retentive toad.

Steve Shaw, were you referring to the famous actress Diana Dors (née Fluck)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:19 PM

Very philosophical Al....and very true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 04:31 PM

When I were a lad, both General Custer, and Bonnie Prince Charlie were heroes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:04 PM

Aye...an' whit aboot "Bufflo bill" he wis a hero tae...the kin'a hero ye nivir hero.
Ma gran faithur seen him an' Sittin Bull at Fa'kirk Tryste 1911!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 05:22 PM

this has all gone a bit strange while i've up been up in edinburgh - still hate that thatcher ch*p though - some things don't change


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:46 PM

MGM is not obnoxious in the ordinary way of things. He has explained he was poorly, and apologised.

he is a nice person - we don't agree about much. But Mike and i agree that he is very nice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 06:52 PM


The rules of engagement were under "green card." This is the same set of rules as used in Northern Ireland at the same time.


The rules of engagement are decreed by the government.
The task force was dispatched to retake the Falklands by force of arms, as the Argentinians had taken them.
The Conqueror sought and was granted permission from the government to engage.
The rules of engagement were to sink her.
Belgrano was under orders to sink a British carrier.
That is all established fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 08:44 PM

MGM is not obnoxious in the ordinary way of things. He has explained he was poorly, and apologised.

he is a nice person - we don't agree about much. But Mike and i agree that he is very nice.


OK, let's compromise: he's a very nice utterly self-obsessed self-serving egotistical puffed-up twat. I've been poorly too on many occasions, but I still don't resort to calling people cnuts whilst acting all offended when someone calls me something much milder. Do not defend the indefensible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:07 PM

'he's a very nice utterly self-obsessed self-serving egotistical puffed-up twat. I've been poorly too on many occasions, but I still don't resort to calling people cnuts whilst acting all offended when someone calls me something much milder.'

So in the bronze medal postion is me, who isn't very nice - calls people cunts all the time.

The silver goes to Mike, who only calls people cunts when he's poorly and is nicer than me.

But in the gold medal position for niceness, comes Steve who does not resort to calling people cunts - but calls Mike 'a very nice utterly self-obsessed self-serving egotistical puffed-up twat.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Aug 12 - 10:36 PM

"The use of the 'c' word is absolutely abhorrent at all times and in all circumstances.

oh no it's not.....!!!

it can be a very funny, affectionate and cuddly word in the right context and company...


..but then I've never been much of a fan of sanctimonious miseries [whatever their political persuasion]
imposing their petty narrow minded absolutes on all us scruffy unruly uncouth plebs....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:07 AM

Keith;

The established facts have not been established yet and are still locked away. It may well be that procedures had been followed, although it can hardly be offensive when the ruddy thing was effectively running away. It is an established fact that The Belgrano had orders to destroy British shipping and perhaps in the moral overview of 20/20 hindsight it averted a much larger carnage..

But she didn't know that, neither did her Ministers. One thing we do know is that the decision was not taken by local commanders assessing their situation but by No.10. She said as much at the time. The look on her face when a reporter questioned her at the time said it all. "How the hell did you know the decision was made here?"

If she asked us to rejoice the shooting gallery sitting duck murder of poor conscripts I can rejoice when she can no longer influence politicians through being alive. I lost a good mate in The Navy in that conflict, and allowing for single deaths being a tragedy and multiple deaths being a statistic, there were many statistical tragedies. I applaud her concern for a small farming community but wonder where her support for communities went a couple of years later?

I suppose when you have a sanction busting husband and a gun running son, you get a little confused over morals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 04:26 AM

It was a strategic decision and rightly taken by government and High Command.
The Argentine Navy would not and did not run away.
They were maneuvering, and we have it from their Admiral that she was indeed out to get a carrier.
I'm off for a couple of weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 05:03 AM

Richard Bridge. "I now see a man smaller but more conceited than I thought - one who collects and stores everything said about him - even comments on an internet forum."

Richard, are you saying that there is someone on this forum who collects and stores everything said about him, and that this even extends to comments on an internet forum? Whoever could this person be? We have to find him and subject him to psychiatric examination immediately.

It seems to me that there could be only two possible explanations for such bizarre behaviour. Either he suffers from a massively overbloated ego which could burst at any minute, or he is the victim of an outrageous inferiority complex. Either way, I'd have thought there is a serious risk of him saying 'boo' to anyone who might just turn out to be cleverer than he.

It sounds like the sort of thing Stalin would have done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 05:14 AM

OCD?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 05:31 AM

I didn't deserve the gold, Al, as I now realise how inaccurate I was apropos of the "very nice" bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 06:21 AM

"and we have it from their Admiral that she was indeed out to get a carrier."
There is no certainty about this; it has been denied as having never been said.
The sinking of the Belgrano was, at best, a marginal war crime - the British government became so bogged down in defending it that they retreated into refusing to answer questions on "security" grounds.
'Security' surfaced again with the murder of Hilda Murrell.
The sinking was comparable to the machine-gunning of shipwrecked sailors by U-Boat crews on the grounds that they might "prove a future threat by returning to action".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 08:37 AM

Paranoid. That was the word I was searching for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 12:25 PM

OCD - Orrible Chinese Doughnuts (thought everyone knew that!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 01:59 PM

The eyes of Caligula, and the lips of Marylin Munroe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,guko
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 03:46 PM

Marylin Munroe

Who she?

Marilyn Monroe I know, but who's this other bint?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 12 - 04:08 PM

She's a ringer


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:27 AM

Which tower does she ring at?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 04:42 AM

The bell tower of course


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Elmore
Date: 14 Aug 12 - 03:50 PM

If you need someone to hate, try Paul Ryan. He makes it easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 12:08 PM

Chongo says that if you had to deal with his downstairs neighbour, Mrs McGillicuddy, you wouldn't have enough time left in the day to hate Margaret Thatcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 01:37 PM

Oh, I'm still around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Aug 12 - 01:41 PM

"Paranoid. That was the word I was searching for."

That's what the voices said, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 06:03 AM

No Mr 999 troll. Paranoid I said and paranoid I meant. You're thinking of schizophrenia, which Wikipedia defines as "a mental disorder characterized by a breakdown of thought processes and by poor emotional responsiveness". It does, I believe, sometimes manifest itself as a tendency to assume multiple identities and social roles. As such it probably explains that strange characteristic of the Mudcat troll; a tendency to log on as a guest, but using using multiple aliases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 06:38 AM

when she dies the song I'll be singing is 'Happy days are here again


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 06:39 AM

sad old woman


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:41 AM

I shall lead the mass choirs of everyone who suffered under Thatcher in a rousing chorus of "Ding Dong The Witch is Dead". (From the Wizard of Oz).


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 08:58 AM

"Ding Dong The Witch is Dead".
Understand your sentiments, but much better to keep her memory alive by reminding people what she was, what she did to whom - and who supported her, and still do. Seems to have worked wonders with the shrinking-violet Thatcherites on this thread who have all leapt back into their closets at a rate of knots.
I'm not sure she'll ever die anyway - bloodsuckers like her have a nasty habit of turning up when you least expect them. Pity Bram Stoker isn't alive to do a follow-up to his masterpiece.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 10:23 AM

Jim, Stokers nephew J Sheridan Le Fanu wrote a story about a female vampire called ' Carmilla ' based on the real life Countess Elizabeth Bathory, perhaps someone could adapt it.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 11:10 AM

Err... I know! That's it!

She stopped children having free school milk so they would drink each other's blood instead.

Dog eat dog. It's what she meant when she said there is no such thing as society.

Which means there can be no such thing as compassion. Hence the comments on this thread. Hence the delicious irony.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 12:54 PM

DRACUMAG (1985)
Ewan MacColl

Margaret Thatcher's reign can either be dated from 1975 when she was first elected leader of the Tory Party or from 1979 when she became Prime Minister. The latter was heralded as a great achievement: she was the first female leader of Britain. Thatcherism, however, was characterised by aggressive nationalism abroad and divisive economic policies at home. Put crudely, under Thatcher the rich got richer (advantageous tax breaks, privatisation of public utilities and services, etc.) and the poor got poorer (vicious education cuts, benefits kept low or changed or scrapped, continual attacks on trades unions, etc). She favoured authoritarian centralised government, as was witnessed by her abolition of the Greater London Council and other Metropolitan authorities. She also insisted on centralised personal power and was known for consistent marginalisation and callous exploitation of her own cabinet ministers. She was often depicted in the media as a female Dracula.

There's a bloke in Transylvania who's said to have a mania,
He's under the impression he's a bat. (A vampire bat!)
But this feller they call Dracula's not nearly so spectacular
At sucking blood and draining off the fat
As you know who,
You surely do!
She's working up an appetite for you.
She'll make a stew,
A barbecue—
She'll eat you, bones and all, before she's through.

She doesn't think that your old granny should be sitting on her fanny;
Sheltered housing is a luxury, she feels. (A luxury we can't afford.)
It's a drain on our resources and it doesn't help the forces,
For it's missiles that we need not Meals on Wheels.
And you know what?
It's got to stop!
Old people should be taken out and shot.
Shoot the lot, | Stop the rot—
Welfare's just another bolshie plot!

When she rises from her coffin she's surrounded by her boffins,
By her ministers they call "the living dead." (Allgood chaps, really.)
And they sing their merry ditty as they fly above the city,
Yes, and Countess Thatcheratoo's at their head.
So watch your step!
They're very good
At tearing out a throat to drink the blood.
Their appetite
Is very great—
Thev'll eat you in the interests of state.

She is filled with indignation at the thought of education
Being subsidised and bolstered by the rates. (It just isn't fair!)
Nursery schools and swimming classes, leisure-centres for the masses:
Yes, and dustbins emptied free the lady hates.
Do you know why?
Because they're dopes!
(They proved it when they handed me their votes.)
So cap the rates
And cut their throats!
(Time to bring back flogging and the rope.)

When Count Dracula is lurkin' in the shadows he's a-workin'.
One by one his victims fall to tooth and claw.
But the lady's had instruction in the use of mass-production
And she sucks your blood protected by the law. (Splendid law!)
So be alert,
And watch your back!
It's when you least suspect her she'll attack.
Don't let her fit
You with a cap—
Her policies are just a load of crap!

So—when you hear the vampires yappin' with their talk aboutrate-cappin'
Then it's time to load your double-barrelled gun.
When the councils they are sacking and communities are cracking
Then it's time to send them back from where they come.
And drive a dart
Right through the part
Where there would be a heart if she'd a heart.
Now don't delay!
Do it today!
To deal with vampires it's the only way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 01:37 PM

"No Mr 999 troll."

Owen, I have been using the name 999 for more than a few years now. I was joking. I am sorry you took it personally. However, please take this personally: fuck you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 03:45 PM

Hey, let's have some respect here. This is the woman who invented aerated ice-cream. No Thatcher - no Mr Whippy vans, and no '99'. It really is that simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 05:55 PM

GUEST,Blandiver

"Hey, let's have some respect here. This is the woman who invented aerated ice-cream. No Thatcher - no Mr Whippy vans, and no '99'. It really is that simple."

Yep, sums up Tory policies: puffed-up, tasteless crap with no real substance and only made palatable by balancing it out with something else (raspberry sauce or a flake).


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 06:21 PM

Steve Shaw - 11 Aug 12 - 08:53 AM

She bade us rejoice over the outrageous deaths of hundreds of young men on the General Belgrano


Did she now Steve?? Got any references to back that up??

The "Rejoice" bit by the way was for the recapture of South Georgia

Here is what she said about the Belgrano - in the House of Commons 4th May 1982 -

"We all regret the loss of human life in the South Atlantic, but our first duty is to protect, and to minimise the danger to, our own forces in the South Atlantic, who are there because we all agreed that we should send a task force—— Source: Hansard HC [23/14-18]


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 07:24 PM

"One thing we do know is that the decision was not taken by local commanders assessing their situation but by No.10. - Musket

This is a quote taken directly from his book "One Hundred Days", it appears on page 114:

"From CTG [Commander Task Group] 317.8, to "Conqueror", text priority flash - Attack Belgrano Group"

CTG and the author of "One Hundred Days" was Admiral Sandy Woodward - about the most senior local commander you could get down in the South Atlantic at that time. He sent that signal knowing full well it could not be acted upon as the three SSN's the UK had down in the South Atlantic were not part of his formation and were under the operational command of Northwood. But in sending that signal he knew damn well that it would succeed in doing the following:

1: Alert those back home of the severity of the situation

2: Let those back home know exactly what "their man in charge" on the ground wanted doing

The result was that the threat posed by the Belgrano and the Carrier Group to the North of the islands was recognised and Chris Wreford-Brown's Rules Of Engagement WERE changed to allow him to attack the Belgrano Group.

Here is something else Woodward says:

"My own case is simply stated, because it comes from the same folklore as that followed by Admiral Nelson, Admiral Jervis, Admiral Hood, Admiral Jellicoe and Admiral Cunningham. The speed and direction of an enemy ship can be irrelevant, because both can change quickly. What counts is his position, his capability and what I believe to be his intention"


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 07:36 PM

Just as an add-on to my last - Had Woodward actually been given operational command of the SSN's in the South Atlantic his preferred dispositions of the three submarines would have put at least one of the boats operating to the North in contact with the Argentine Carrier Group and both "Belgrano" and the "Vientecinco de Mayo" would have been sunk that day - and guess what?? - He would have been right to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 12 - 07:54 PM

Yep, you got me there. Thanks for the correction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Bugsy
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 12:26 AM

If she invented "Mr Whippy" style Ice cream, she must have done it a bloody long time ago because I can remember buying "Softa Freeze" from Pelosi's Ice Cream Parlours in Ramsgate in c1952.

I am forever grateful that I emigrated to Australia in 1972 before she got her hooks into the government.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 12:54 AM

was it a yank mod who deleted the daft innocuous quote
from Cliff Richard's "Devil Woman" lyric ???


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 04:28 AM

Teribus,

War memoirs by someone puffing up their importance is at least as reliable as the leaked documents I was referring to, I suppose. But no more reliable either.

One day, the truth on that matter shall out and either your stance or mine will be vindicated. But in the meantime, we can both put forward which we would believe to be the most credible.

I have been told her reaction to the reporter's question at the time is available on Utube, if anyone knows how to search it. Must admit, I know how to get to Shaun the Sheep doing Flock Dance but thats about my limit.

Mind you, despite the impetus of defending the task force, I find your describing a scenario that never happened and then saying "Guess what? He'd had been right to sink it" to be grasping at straws. Let's deal with the death and carnage that happened, not that which an old warrior wished for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 04:55 AM

we all agreed that we should send a task force——Source: Hansard HC [23/14-18]

well I had doubts about the wisdom of it.

The royal 'we' - maybe. I suppose in a way Woodward was right, if you're in a war - you don't piss about. They're there to kill you, you're there to kill them.

It was a sad business for England. the SDP pretty much had the tories by the throat. Whatever you thought of Williams/Owen/Steele - it was THE one chance England had of the electoral reform it needs so much.

Of course once Maggie had done the can can in Union Jack knickers, the chance had gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 05:20 AM

Musket, Teribus is well known for being a long standing Thatcher apologist.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 05:45 AM

Teribus = Land of Death


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 08:52 AM

The legatees of the Thatcher blitzkrieg are curently closing down Remploy factories all over the country. That's one place us Thatcher haters will be heading to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 03:48 PM

GUEST - 16 Aug 12 - 07:54 PM

Yep, you got me there. Thanks for the correction.


I am assuming that the "GUEST" here is Steve Shaw not wishing to lose "street cred" by admitting in person that he was in error.

Dave Hanson - 17 Aug 12 - 05:20 AM

Musket, Teribus is well known for being a long standing Thatcher apologist.


Dave H is of course in error Musket Teribus is well known for challenging the many myths, misrepresentations, half-truths and downright lies trotted out regularly by the rabid left and champions of "socialism - as practised" who will do anything other and cast blame on anyone rather than admit that it is normally the ones they support that keep dumping us in the shit, as lately demonstrated by such scions of "Labour" as Blair & Brown - Oh I know they weren't real socialists, but there again after each and everyone of them fail that is always how they are described - doesn't alter the fact you all voted for them time and time again does it?

I cannot help but being mildly amused by "champagne socialist" Musket with his wine cooler holding serveral bottles of champagne no less. Must have developed a taste for it whilst working for the Union eh?

Of course the Unions in the UK needed taking on after almost a decade of holding the country to ransome and contributing to the destruction of our industrial base. Thatcher was the only politician in the country to provide the leadership to do it - and for that to her I am eternally grateful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 04:05 PM

Now as far as the whys and wherefores go with regard to the events that took place in the South Atlantic thirty years ago I can either believe the ill-informed suppositions of someone who was not there, or I can believe published accounts by those responsible for directing operations, accounts that are in the public domain and open to professional critique and challenge. It is a no brainer really isn't it Musket I'll take Woodwards account and his reasoning over yours any day.

"I find your describing a scenario that never happened and then saying "Guess what? He'd had been right to sink it" to be grasping at straws."

Never happened?? What utter rot you spout. To the North of the Falklands the Carrier force's radar coverage extended only 40 miles beyond the position of the Type 42 Air Defence Destroyers. The Argentine Carrier Group escorted by Argentina's own two Type 42's had been detected by radar intercept from aircraft launched from Illustrious. Woodward (a very experienced Submariner himself) disagreed with our SSN's, particularly those stationed to the North, operating as they would have done in the Northern Atlantic. He would have assigned them differently (again taken from his book). The disagreement as to who controlled the submarines is matter of recorded fact as is the timing of those discussions so the charge of 20 x 20 hindsight does not enter into the equation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 06:24 PM

Yes, teribus you twat, guest was indeed me, Steve, temporarily and unavoidably on the wrong computer. I'm always more than happy to admit my errors, thanks. One day you'll admit the error of all your ways. Maybe not hiding behind a pseudonym either, hypocrite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 08:16 PM

If it hasn't appeared here before....who remembers the chant that built up a syllable at a time to ' A long strong black pudding up mar grit thatcher ( sideways). A mainstay of the Blackheath Morris 'Apres' in the eighties!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 12 - 08:29 PM

when she dies,I will not be sorry.
A corrupt small minded ambitious shopkeeper who had no understanding of anything other than her parochial up bringing, some christian


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 02:52 AM

Teribus, is it true that you walk round in circles because you totally refuse to make any left turns ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 03:05 AM

HMS Teribus sinks the whole fleet of leaky canoes with one broadside, and sails off majestically....leaving the survivors as shark fodder!

Isn't it strange how history keeps repeating itself?

Just goes to show that left wing "liberal" ideology is a very poor base on which to build an argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 03:16 AM

The tragedy is, that when the revolution comes....as i'm afraid it will, it will be people like me and Teribus who will have to liquidate one another, while the "fluffy bunny's" peek out from the safety of their holes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 03:17 AM

"Now as far as the whys and wherefores go with regard to the events that took place in the South Atlantic thirty years ago"
Pompous eejit.
Once again one of Terry the Termite's military arguments take on the air of a pub discussion five minutes before closing time.
The fact is that we still know very little of the whys and wherefores of the sinking of the Belgrano, and probably never shall.
We only know what little we do of the incident because a heroic civil servant, Clive Ponting, passed on information to an opposition Member of Parliament, who then made it generally known that (a) The Belgrano had beeen sighted a day earlier than officially reported, (b) It was sailing away from the scene of battle and (c) It was outside the officially agreed exclusion zone.
Ponting risked his liberty by passing on this information, which, he argued, was "in the public interest"; Thatcher decided we had no right to to such information and had him charged with a criminal act and and then tightened up UK secrets legislation by introducing the Official Secrets Act 1989.
Despite the judge's ruling that "the public interest is what the government of the day says it is", Ponting was acquitted.
To put as 'evidence' the somewhat bombastic ramblings of a then involved combatant "or I can believe published accounts by those responsible for directing operations", is typical of Terrytoon's somewhat Colonel Blimpish, bar-room brigadeerism and his past defence of the indefencible.
The fact is that we don't know, and can only base our judgement on what little we have been told.
My attitude is that it would come as no great surprise to learn that a British prime minister who admired and supposted a fascist dictator who allowed and probably directed acts of mass murder, wholesale torture and illegal imprisonment, was capable of anything, including war crimes.
I still have fond memories of Thatcher taking part in a radio phone-in and being totally humiliated by schoolteacher Mrs Diana Gould, who exposed her dangerous ignorance and dishonesty on the Belgrano to the world. Thatcher committed one of the cardinal sins of politics, going public before she had got her story straight.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 03:37 AM

I don't know why we are concentrating on one of Thatcher's few pragmatically correct decisions. As I long ago argued - Thatcher's decision to order the sinking of the Belgrano was technically a breach of international law because no war had been declared but it was probably the right thing to do. In her shoes I would also have sent the taskforce to defend England's legitimate colony attacked by an illegal invading force. I would also have sunk the Belgrano and as many other Argentinian vessels as possible. If we had destroyed the entire Argentinian navy perhaps the ridiculous and opportunistic colonial ambitions of Argentina would not now be again asserted.

I'm not sure I would have intentionally provoked the entire Falklands incident for the purpose of electoral credibility however.

The disgusting and evil woman committed so many other wrongs.

I do find it amusing how even now I am on the other side of the argument from Mither, even when he is being assailed by our local colonel blimps and the Pharaoh fascist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 04:30 AM

"I don't know why we are concentrating...."
You might be right Richard.
Why has it become an issue here? Because it is a straw that has been grasped by Thatcherites like The Chocolate Soldier and Ake the phobe in an attempt to salvage what little dignity might be remaining to those defending one very vicious politician who all but brought Britain to her knees and the effects of whose policies of 'sending the weaker to the wall' are still being felt - "closing down Remploy factories all over the country.".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 05:44 AM

Ah well Bridge, keep the grey cells turning and who knows?

Hey Teribus. Me a champagne socialist? Wow, I like that. Bridge, take note, I love being called a champagne socialist, (as opposed to the many armchair socialists here...)

No, I didn't get my wine cooler when I was in a union. I was only ever in one union, The NUM up till just after the strike when I buggered off to plough my own field. I possibly got the idea for a wine cooler when I was chief executive of a group of manufacturing companies and giving talks to CBI sponsored events and even once to The Adam Smith Institute. But there again, by mentioning my wine cooler, you have done a little research. Do some more and you will find I am a dirty rotten stinking capitalist after all.

In order to believe in supporting a social program through capitalism, don't make the mistake it means you also believe in greed, warfare, class or obnoxious right wing bullshit.

Ken Dodd got it right, (other than his tax affairs...) He said if you are not a socialist when you are 20, something is wrong. If you are still a socialist when you are 30, something is wrong.

And you're still bloody wrong 30 years after the "conflict" (as opposed to "war.")


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 06:02 AM

I think, Mither, you misquote and misattribute George Bernard Shaw. Dodd was put into a bad place by Lance Blackstone (with whom I used to do work for some other clients - but I was a big man then... now I'm just a short fat old grumpy one, which I much prefer).

Capitalism is inseparable from greed selfishness right wing and/or libertarian shit, and the oppression of the poor by the rich. You should have learned that by now.

Assuming that Tatcher did in fact invent "Mr Whippy" (nothing to do with "Miss Whiplash"), although I thought Carpigiani were making the machinery before any English food machinery manufacturers (and my late father owned one, Hamilton Perryn and its offshoot Hamlyn Engineering) it fits with all I know of her. Make an inferior product and charge people more for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 06:37 AM

Yay! Teribus, here's one left-wing, delusional fat scruttock who's glad to see you back at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 07:32 AM

Aye and socialism is inseparable from Stalinist pogroms and oppression by your weird argument.

GBS has credibility, so it sounds far better attributing it to Ken Dodd, who at least said it as I quoted it. Bugger credibility. Your comments rarely have any, so why should I be any different?

Capitalism and socialism are both tools or enablers. It is the finished product you should be interested in. If capitalism can raise the funds for a social programme, or socialism can coerce the funds for a social programme, you get a social programme. I may denounce Bliar for being starry eyed with Republican Americans, I may denounce Broon for fiscal incompetence in his early years, but the philosophy, spearheaded by the Dark Lord Mandy, is a sound one. Have a welfare state, equality etc etc but be honest about how you fund it.

Th*tcher however liked the enabling bits about capitalism, but wished to destroy the society that could have benefited from it. I'm not sure this lot are much more enlightened for that matter. Benevolent charity is not the same as equal opportunity, but she tried to use it as an alternative and this lot carry it on.

But for a businessman such as yourself to decry capitalism, all I can say is that the British self loathing syndrome is alive and kicking in Kent....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 07:57 AM

Complete bollocks as usual Mither. The basis of capitalism is self interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 09:35 AM

(Ovalteenies theme tune)

We are the Thatcher haters
Little reds and trots
We hate the rich and powerful,
All their privilege and money
All their private jets and yachts.

Margaret Thatcher was a stinker
And all her tory chums
Kenneth Clark, and Kenneth Baker
And Keith Joseph
They were bums.

If you you vote for unemployment
the usual tory plots
I suppose it is a shame
but you've got yourself to blame
So join the reds and trots!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 10:00 AM

Not in my book and I suspect not in the books of anybody other than confused self appointed authorities on matters.   

if you work and give a percentage of your earnings to a government to fund their public sector social programme, that's capitalism. if you work and the government give you back something to live on, that's totalitarianism.

As you remind us so often of your job, welcome to the fact you are capitalist too. Come on in, the water's lovely.

Mind you, unlike you, I've never called myself a Tory, so perhaps you should be giving me lessons as the Tories (mistakenly) think they own the word, whereas they give the impression that ultimately, they only own the vision you reckon anybody who disagrees with you owns.

(And that is a hell of a lot of people, luckily. Normally enough to dismiss such tosh at election time.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 10:31 AM

Al, see me after class.

Ken Clarke is not a Tory any more than Bliar was a socialist..

I joined the reds and trots and all I got was this lousy Che Guevara T shirt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 12:03 PM

"Come on in, the water's lovely."

Yeah, it's working a real treat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,WB Lad
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 02:02 PM

Musket, if you think Ken Clarke's not a Tory, then obviously you don't have him as an MP (as I do).


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 03:44 AM

Just noting the difference between Tory and Tory. Same as labour and socialist.

All MPs really. He is the sixth lib dem in the cabinet though and come the reshuffle we will all know that. I have had dealings with him and yes, he is a one nation Tory but as such is ideology free, unlike the inexperienced dogma suffering idiots calling the shots.

Mind you, I'm not starting a love campaign for the bugger. I still disagree with a hell of a lot he stands for. Would I vote for him? Only if, as is at the moment, he was helping prevent a goverment from lurching to polarised policies.

And that would also mean voting Tory which I have never done and based on present form am never likely to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 06:03 PM


Why has it(Belgrano) become an issue here? Because it is a straw that has been grasped by Thatcherites

Wrong Jim.
The first several Belgrano posts were all from your Lefty mates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 06:13 PM

2oo!

"and we have it from their Admiral that she was indeed out to get a carrier."
There is no certainty about this; it has been denied as having never been said.

The Independent, 3rd April 2012
Rear-Admiral Walter Allara, in command of the Belgrano battlegroup, said: "The entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, felt it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano." Admiral Enrique Molina Pico, head of the Argentinian Navy in the 1990s, said the cruiser was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force and that she was holding off from carrying out an attack for purely tactical reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Bugsy
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:35 AM

Musket, "One nation Tory" is a title that interests me. Downunder in Aus, "One Nation" was like the Australian version of your BNP.

To quote One Nation's founder, (with tongue firmly in cheek) "Please explain"

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:11 AM

"The first several Belgrano posts were all from your Lefty mates"
And the've been taken up by your ultra-right mob to gloss over Thatchers fascist tendencies and the Conservative Party's allowing her to turn her/your party into a rallying call for a mass murderer and the British police force into a private army to be used againt the miners ("The Enemy Within" in her own words) - among the many other atrocities she committed while in office.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:24 AM

How about, if for a lark
We voted Tory - for Kenneth Clark?
That man with a protruding tum
Who inflicted the National
Curriculum -
On every school
Throughout Britain.
He's the best....!
You must be shittin'!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:31 AM

Bugsy: "Please explain"

One Nation Tory is the acknowledgement that there can be 'two nations' within a country: the haves and have nots, or rich and poor.

The idea of 'One Nation Toryism' is to bridge any inequality with obligation from both halves to each other. The obligation of the rich/powerful/elite was to acknowledge that whilst a class structure/hierarchy might be somehow 'inevitable', those at the bottom should also benefit from that hierarchy (not just those at the top) through paternalism and social reforms.

This all went out of the window back in the 1970s, which is why it's relevant to Thatcher and Thatcher haters. David Cameron talks about 'One Nation Toryism' now but it's hard not to see this as part of the the drive to portray the Tories as no longer being the "nasty party". Current Tory politics don't exactly back-up this talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:36 AM

"The first several Belgrano posts were all from your Lefty mates"
And the've been taken up by your ultra-right mob to gloss over Thatchers....

No they have not.
The false and ludicrous statements about it were merely refuted by Teribus, Richard and me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Bugsy
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:47 AM

Thanks for enlightening me wyrdolafr.

Obviously (and thankfully) very different to Pauline Hanson's One Nation.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:21 AM

No problem, Bugsby. I could have probably explained it better but I think that's the gist of it. In some ways 'One Nation Toryism' represents the left of the Conservative party with the post-Thatcherite free-marketeers and 'individualists' representing the right of the party.

Yes, it's a slightly different political battleground than the Pauline Hanson 'One Nation'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:24 AM

Just a reminder that the concept of The Two Nations came from the subtitle to the novel Sybil [1845] ~~ by - er - one Benjamin Disraeli.

A Tory, if memory serves...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM

MtheGM, we're actually talking *about* Tories. One Nation Toryism was, not that surprisingly, a Tory-specific take on a problem recognised by all politicians during the 19th Century. Surely the clue is in the name?

No one is disputing that Disraeli didn't put together that the concept of 'Two Nations' or that he put forward a 'One Nation' political strategy in response. Although, at the said time, it was also opportunistic ragging on the Whigs, in the same way that modern politicians do today with all political opponents.

Disraeli might have been a Tory, but it's worth pointing out that he wouldn't be Tory enough for a lot of the current Tories. And, possibly, for some of the tin-foil hat wearing far right, a touch too Jewish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:44 AM

That last post was me, sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:58 AM

"The false and ludicrous statements"
Neither false nor ludicrous.
At the time the sinking of the Belgrano was at best, controversial, many nations, even Britain's allies treated it as a possible war crime.
Thatcher was uneasy enough about its legality to lie and claim that the ship was within the agreed restriction line, and was fordced to withdraw this after she had been humiliated by a schoolteacher on a phone-in
The sinking of a ship outside an agreed restriction zone and steaming away from battle remains unresolved: Thatcher was forced to say at her public humiliation that "One day the truth will be known" - that definitive "truth" has yet to be revealed and it continues to be a matter for argument.
What is ludicrous is that a pair of tossers like you and Termite should have some sort of "refutation" - no such exists, no matter how many quotes our shootist friend comes up with from British Commanders, the killing of a ship-full of men not involved in battle is at best an extremely dubious act - every bit as dubious as machinegunning shipwrecked sailors because they might prove a future threat.
Personally, as I said in the beginning, I really don't give a toss one way or the other. If, as Richard said, it was one of the few things Thatcher got right, so be it, it doesn't alter the fact that her government was the nearest thing Britain ever got to an extremist fascist dictatorship and if you want to use a possible war crime as a diversion from that fact - feel free.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:05 AM

Must admit, The Belgrano has had too much debate, considering we are talking the lingering existence leading to inevitable death of someone who thought she knew how to run a country

The fact is, the legacy of her incompetent style and extreme policies is still affecting us now and shall do for many more years to come.

Yes, we shall one day know how much The Belgrano was a threat and whether the suspicion of many, myself included, is correct and it was a political decision made at No.10 or a tactical military decision after all. In the meantime, we have enough reasons to hope, as I keep repeating, that her grave has a sprung dance floor.

I am put on the left or the right by others on threads, neither of which would describe me. However, she called the likes of me "the enemy within" so by that standard, she wants me to think of her as the enemy. Considering her legacy is still a threat; "Sink the old bitch."


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:19 AM

many nations, even Britain's allies treated it as a possible war crime.

No they did not.

Musket and Jim,
The Independent, 3rd April 2012
Rear-Admiral Walter Allara, in command of the Belgrano battlegroup, said: "The entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, felt it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano." Admiral Enrique Molina Pico, head of the Argentinian Navy in the 1990s, said the cruiser was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force and that she was holding off from carrying out an attack for purely tactical reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:33 AM

"her government was the nearest thing Britain ever got to an extremist fascist dictatorship" ~~~
.,,.,..,
Well then, aren't we the lucky ones!

Some of you try living [or ultimately not living, like a lot of my quite close relations ~ haven't counted how many of my father's aunts & uncles & first cousins] some time, under a real one of those. And count your blessings, you ignorant selfrighteous fools. You don't know you're bloody born!

& you think you might be better off under the sort of socialist paradise that ass Woodson has just been drivelling on about on the Prince Harry thread, do you? Hohoho...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:40 AM

And ,
Galtieri's Argentina was an "extremist Fascist dictatorship."


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:58 AM

"Galtieri's Argentina was an "extremist Fascist dictatorship."
So would Thatcher's Britain have been had she got her way - no doubt she could have called on her Chilian friend for help
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:13 AM

M. Einstein proved the theory of relativity; Newton proved the existence of the laws of motion; a dedicated team of physicists has just proved the existence of the God particle; and I have just proved that it is impossible for you to debate the existence of anything with anyone on this board without resorting to ignorant childish abuse.

Grow up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:38 AM

Talk about Pots & Kettles - in ♠♠♠


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:43 AM

See what I mean. Michael Grosvener Myer can't debate the existence of anything with anyone on this board without resorting to ignorant childish abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM

As I might just have said once before -

Talk about Pots & Kettles - in ♠♠♠

(& I should be fascinated to learn what is abusive about that...)

This one could run and run.......................


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:28 PM

e.g. ~ Woodson wrote on the Harry thread

"What a tosser."

When I wished above to question his intellect I called him "an ass" [&, to clarify, not in the US, "Americans-can't-spell-bottom", sense].

Which of us, I leave it to all fair-minded readers of this exchange to assess, is the more prone to posting 'ignorant childish abuse'.

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 12:40 PM

Mike if you think ANY of us are going to wade through all your posts and this Welsh blokes to divide the honours....words fail me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM

I expect no such thing, Al: was simply referring to the two examples in my last post as reasonably typical.

Still, I don't know quite why I have let myself be drawn back into a battle of words with this exceptionally unintelligent young man. Shall just leave it here and not bother with this thread any more.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:36 PM

I will, though, because I am genuinely curious, cite the following posts ~~

From: Owen Woodson - PM
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:43 AM
See what I mean. Michael Grosvener Myer can't debate the existence of anything with anyone on this board without resorting to ignorant childish abuse.


The opening four words can only mean that it is written in direct response to what I had just posted, which was -

From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:38 AM
Talk about Pots & Kettles - in ♠♠♠


Now, I am greatly exercised as to where, in that post he is responding to, Mr Woodson finds anything to justify the accusation made in his post. All I have said is that he has just made an accusation against me which could apply equally well to himself -- which is what the saying about the pot and the kettle means; did he really not know that?. I really would like to know what is supposed to be 'ignorant childish abuse' about that? And I ask because, I say again, I am genuinely curious as to what anfractuous convolutions of thought can have led OW to that conclusion.

And my contention, that his 'tosser' is a far better exemplar of ignorant childish abuse than anything I have posted recently, still holds.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:47 PM

yes its not an elevated level of debate - could almost be the House of Commons in the Yahboo Years.

Never mind. Let not thy self be troubled....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:06 PM

the House of Commons in the Yahboo Years.

Have there been any other sort?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 07:46 PM

I always think of the Yahbooo years as the Kinnock ones. Kinnock always struck me as a thoroughly decent chap, who couldnt string two words together when sixteen or seventeen words could be squeezed into a sentence.

he achieved the impossible of making Thatcher look good. Thatcher herself was a very wooden speaker, but after Neil had done his bit - she seemed the model of adroit pithiness.

How did we ever arrive a having those two as the leaders of the government and opposition...? There really were so many more able, intelligent, and articulate people available on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:16 PM

yep, here we go again...

distracting and divisive petty ego fueled middle brow squabbles about fuck all that really matters
to most peoples difficult daily financial survival....

How the tory ruling class desperately depends on "Divide and Rule" to maintain a strangle hold on political & social power..............


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:46 AM

Aye, but punkfolkrocker, there is no such thing as Tory and no such thing as Labour. Each cling desperately to what they hope is the middle ground in order to be electable, whilst giving a nod to their fundamental "principles."

If either were given free rein for long enough, power corrupting and all that, the divide and rule would be a feature of Labour too. And guess what? You still wouldn't be on the successful side.

And neither would I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:59 AM

wise words ian!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:49 AM

Overheard in the opub last night. "I don't think she should be given a state funeral. I think the coffin should be hauled around every street in the land so that everybody can have the chance to spit on her".

I leaned forward and said to the man (whom I had never met before) "You have just got to be talking about Margaret Thatcher".

He said "That's the one."


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 09:04 AM

I wonder if the same amount of hatred would be expressed had Thatcher been mnale.
I feel the shadow of mysogyny in so many of the posts knocking her.
Tony Blair in some ways was worse, especially whem you consider the number of people who were killed in a US inspired war, based on a false premise. Which he sanctioned.
Yet he doesn't seem to attract a similar amount of opprobrium.
Are the left afraid to dis their own kind?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 09:50 AM

John your comment reminds me of a time I was singing my song, The Day Delaneys Donkey had Sex with the Pope. And someone said, you wouldn't be singing that if the Pope was a Muslim.


Life is full of these imponderables.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps so. She had her faults and her virtues in her time in office - like most. But what are we to make of a normally intelligent regular poster on this forum, a stalwart of a fine period of the folk revival, who goes on & on around these threads about how his happiest memory is of seeing her on tv weeping as she left Downing Street after being backstabbed by her own? Or of an apparently in general not particularly abnormal person, whom you can hear practically creaming his underpants in unbridled joy as he writes of overhearing a drunken ranter in a pub fantasising about desecrating her corpse after she dies? Isn't all this, honest now, a bit pathetic?

"Where now Thatcher haters?" indeed. Good question. To which "Up their own unpleasant anuses" seems to me to be a possible answer.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:51 AM

Hardly surprising coming from you Michael, she probably didn't set out to destroy your job and living like she deliberately did to the miners, steelworkers and the Trade Union Movement in general.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 11:07 AM

Arthur Scargill destroyed mor miners jobs than Thatcher ever did. Sadly.
Was he perhaps a forerunner of TB?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:13 PM

M. It isn't the least pathetic. It's you who are pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:32 PM

MtheGM. Just for the record, the man wasn't drunk, although I wonder what state of inebriation you're in when you post some of these messages.

Did you honestly think I was "creaming my underpants", as you so revoltingly put it? He held a point of view very similar to mine and which would be endorsed by the vast majority of people who suffered under Thatcher.

In any event, where, in my posting is there even the faintest suggestion that he was drunk or that I was in some of heightened state of sexual excitement?

Perhaps it is you who are the wanker?

And no, I don't think theres's anything mysoginistic about hating Thatcher. John McKenzie seems to have forgotten that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan and Michael Grosvenor Maybe were or are male.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:12 PM

Twat!

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan
Each with the blood of millions on their hands.

MtheGM is right that you people lose all rationality when her name is mentioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:56 PM

Waxing all pholosophical. like wot I do in moments of weakness, I am struck by the similarity, to me, between the (old)IRA, and the Labour Party (sic).
In both cases while I am in sympathy with their aims, I totally disagree with their means of achieving them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:10 PM

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan

they were foreigners....you expect that sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:14 PM

Boadicea? ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:20 PM

Better not be too roguish, Al, with the likes of some of these-here about. You'll find yourself in the Gulag along with Ivan Denisovich if you don't watch out.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 02:58 PM

Or safely ensconced within the straitjacket. What size do you take, M
?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 03:21 PM

LoL, OW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:33 AM

quite some time ago on this thread i explained that my hatred of thatcher was not just objective - i know that bliar (never a socialist -please stop this nonsense of calling him of the left or whatever) is in many ways worse - he betrayed the labour movement while she did what her side wanted. bliar's craven acceptance of george bush's iraq adventure was shameful and embarrassing for the uk. but she was embarrassing in a different way- there is something about her that got right under my skin - the superiority, the manifest ignorance, the loving of her own image -whipped up for her by a load of besotted tory-boy admen, her dismissal of anyone with a bit of brain or humanity as a useless 'wet' - i could (and occasionally do) go on. i don't think it is anything to do with her being a woman but maybe.....this hatred of mine is not entirely rational.
when she won the election against michael foot (who i rated as being intelligent, decent and humane) so decisively, i felt it said something very sad about our country. that his many qualities (and anyone with the capacity to consider more than one point of view (well...i might be for turning on that point, he mused.....))could be derided by a jeering mob of brain-dead, jingoistic bigots who seemed to be (and have remained) in a majority...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:45 AM

Do you think of yourself as a democrat, Pete?

Well then...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:52 AM

... and that is not a mere debating point. The trouble with you of the left is that you cannot reconcile yourselves to the fact that what you want is not what the vast majority of the people of this country want. So in your self-righteous frustration you turn aggressive and abusive and unmannerly. A minor example ~~ Owen's suggestion that I should be in a straitjacket because I won't accept the world-view which seems self-evident to him. Maybe he has left himself a backdoor of "Can't you take a joke?" to escape the accusation of disproportionate rudeness; maybe not. But my point holds.

I don't mean to be rude to you lot. I just wish you wouldn't be so perpetually self-righteously unpleasant.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:57 AM

...and the fact that to Pete we can be denounced, in all seriousness, as a chorus of brain-dead jingoistic bigots. Doesn't seem to me a phrase to give much confidence in the brain-aliveness of its perpetrator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:47 AM

i am accepting that i am not entirely rational on this subject. she affects me in a very negative way but i am quite confident that she had an equally strong - positive-effect on others that is also not entirely rational. she did have a way of exciting positive and negative emotions in many people. 'brain-dead, jingoistic bigots' - i would say is -maybe- a slight exaggeration of the way some folk reacted in the excitement of that time -and maybe some people have never calmed down.
democracy? of course. i just wish we could have a more reasonable choice, when the world is being destroyed by an aggressive, rampant capitalism we need to be able to have a way of changing this that is more meaningful than choosing between the identikit politicians we have now -operating on a very narrow political plane and all enthralled by the mythical benefits (beyond the 1%)of big business and perpetual growth. there is a class war raging and only one side fighting it - capitalism has not the slightest interest in democracy. we may cherish it, but it is a useless protection of what is left of our rights in the current climate. (this topic is about the uk -though i am well aware that the effects of global capitalism have been far worse, devastating- in many parts of the world)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 07:08 PM

thatcherism was never a majority choice - never mind your 'vast majority.' some things remain ever popular - NHS, tolerance, BBC decency and fairness- all routinely attacked by tories or opponents of what the americans call 'big government' and the rest of us regard as society. i've lived nearly all my adult life in scotland and the north of england -and never met half a dozen people who were seriously proposing that thatcherism was the way to go. of those who express an opinion -she is overwhelmingly loathed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 01:35 AM

No PM has been a 'majority choice' for years, Pete. Fact is, she won more elections on the trot, & stayed longer in office, than any other British PM of the C20. Anyhow, my 'vast majority' didn't refer to specific party support, but to more general left-right orientations. The things which eg Owen & JimC get their knickers in such a twist over because we won't all share their perceptions of whither we should be heading, was my point in using the phrase. Not a matter of party: fact remains that we didn't, & don't, most of us, want to be governed by the likes of Scargill & have our present Head of State replaced by an elected one who would still go on like the present Italian pres who can't keep his prick in his pants so how much better off would we be after all the upheaval? So the likes of Owen & Jim get all wounded & priggish about it and resort to rudeness & abuse: like your 'derision' from the 'jeering brain-dead mob'; which a pretty mild example of the sort of locutions you lot resort to for want of being able to convince the rest of us.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:06 AM

in assuming an alternative way of running things would be worse -scargill, berlsconi etc you seem to be advocating sticking with the status quo. there is no reason why-especially if all of us take a more active role in the democratic process -that things could not be improved. for example, following the mess of the reforms to our NHS -we could have doctors standing for election against that bill's main architects in our next election. often, people seem to assume that say a presidential system would inevitably lead to some finished politician like prescott, scargill or bliar in post -but it doesn't have to be that way. given a choice between that lot and say steven fry, jo brand or joanna lumley -who would get your vote?
there are many things wrong with the current system - the left will always seek to change them, the right to maintain -conserve- the system. even when it is 'conservatives' -(here and the usa) who are engaged in radical change -selling up and discarding all the things generations have fought for to make life a little better for ourselves.
i'd guess you relate to scargill in a similar way to my response to thatcher - but in reality, now, we should ignore them and deal with the damage that is currently being done against the wishes of up to 99% of the world's population. i am still waiting for anyone outside the 1% to say why they continue to support the system that works against their own interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 04:18 AM

We are rather at cross-purposes, Pete. I do not disagree with much you say.

But I have had no answer to my point that those on the left seem incapable of 'fighting their corner' without making an actual fight of it: they cannot discuss, ever, in a rational, mannerly fashion, but resort constantly to abuse, insult, obscenity, and general unpleasantness.

Socialism, I have always understood, to be based on a concept of love and respect for one's fellow-men. But it has always led in practice to aggressiveness, intolerance...; and where it has succeeded in winning power, to Stalin & Pol Pot style massacres of the opposition, Moscow Trials...

Alas!

Couldn't we make a start here with some of the Owens & Jims & Steves trying at least to be civil occasionally?

I won't hold my breath.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:06 AM

But, MtheGM, you serve the cause of those whose credo is self-interest (sorry, Mither, still the essence of capitalism, go back and do economics 101 again), who actively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich. In what way should you be exempt from abuse?

On another tack, Kinnock was an excellent public speaker.

"If Margaret Thatcher is re-elected as prime minister on Thursday, I warn you. I warn you that you will have pain – when healing and relief depend upon payment. I warn you that you will have ignorance – when talents are untended and wits are wasted, when learning is a privilege and not a right. I warn you that you will have poverty – when pensions slip and benefits are whittled away by a government that won't pay in an economy that can't pay. I warn you that you will be cold – when fuel charges are used as a tax system that the rich don't notice and the poor can't afford.
I warn you that you must not expect work – when many cannot spend, more will not be able to earn. When they don't earn, they don't spend. When they don't spend, work dies. I warn you not to go into the streets alone after dark or into the streets in large crowds of protest in the light. I warn you that you will be quiet – when the curfew of fear and the gibbet of unemployment make you obedient. I warn you that you will have defence of a sort – with a risk and at a price that passes all understanding. I warn you that you will be home-bound – when fares and transport bills kill leisure and lock you up. I warn you that you will borrow less – when credit, loans, mortgages and easy payments are refused to people on your melting income."


It says it all. It was right in every single respect, and Cameron continues the path (while pretending he does not).


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:25 AM

. In what way should you be exempt from abuse?

We are a forum of folk with a common interest.
Almost friends.
Why can you not point out perceived faults, misunderstandings and false doctrines in others, or challenge such accusations against yourself, without the abuse?

If you had a good case there should be no problem.
(Or is that the problem?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 09:52 AM

Richard ~~ I should be exempt from abuse as a matter of courtesy ~ an attribute in which those of the left seem lamentably deficient. I can't follow your reasoning at all - do you really believe that anyone who differs from you politically should be subject to the kind of obloquy & insult so unhappily current in these parts?

I do not believe, if I actually met you or Owen or Jim or Steve as fellow guests on a social occasion and we found ourselves in some such disagreement on various issues as we do on this forum, that such terms would be exchanged as are common on here: out of respect to our hosts, if for no other reason. I fear it does Mudcat little credit that such usages are common herein. I admit I have been known to resort to such myself, in something of a Cet animal est très méchant reaction; such is induced by the predominant ambience: which just goes to reinforce my point.

"Civil words, Bill," Fagin requested of Bill Sikes. They were a pair of villains. But he was right that once.

So civil words, please. Less about 'tossers' & 'twats' and straitjackets, eh?

~M~

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 10:56 AM

And less about cunts and people creaming their underpants.

Honestly, can you believe this guy? He spreads pompous, arrogant, opinionated, irritating drivel all Mudcat, insults everyone who has the brass necked cheek to disagree with him, and intersperses all this with infuriatingly silly, childish baby-talk.

Then, when I react and give him some of his own back, he carries on like a big soft kid, even to the extent of attacking me on threads I haven't contributed to.

Not to worry. Just in case I ever meet him at this coven of witches, sorry, social gathering, I shall make sure I have can of insecticide with me.

You know the one. It says on the label "Kills Pests Stone Dead".


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 10:59 AM

See what I mean?

Many thanks for your co-operation, OW.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:48 AM

"I should be exempt from abuse as a matter of courtesy
~ an attribute in which those of the left seem lamentably deficient."


.. of course, us polite civilised moderate self-disciplined lefties
are only too aware that we are constantly surrounded & ambushed
by belligerent pig headed abusive arseholes from all ends and tangents
of our terminally dysfunctional political & cultural spectrum.....

[punkfolkrocker - Grammar school & Polytechnic educated son
of a mild mannered conciliatory & compliant factory trade union shop steward...

Poor Dad never suspected he was a Bosses'stooge and being played for a fool by management,
until the factory our council estate was built to serve and depend on
suddenly closed down to preserve stockholders wealth
and he and all his workmates were made redundant - circa 1983]


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:48 PM

(i wrote a long and detailed reply on here this morning and have just sent the last 6 hours wandering around loweswater and crummock - when i get back my message ain't here -d'oh!)

anyway, the gist of it was that socialism does not inevitably lead to rule by stalin and the rest of those guys. i think it's power corrupting that leads to the abuses produced by such dictators- no matter what they may claim their original motivation was. we have working examples of democratic socialism in the more progressive countries in northern europe (inc. scotland) and all democracies have some element of socialist thinking in their aims. also there is some hope in southern america where countries are increasingly rejecting the shock doctrine ultra-capitalist 'remedies' insisted upon by the usa, and trying to have a government that is more responsive to the needs of the ordinary citizen. my own personal favourite description of a desired socialist state is at the start of orwell's 'homage to catalonia' - but other than that and positives that have come from cuba- it does seem to be an elusive goal.

anyway, currently we are dealing with a rampant and ruthless capitalism that has no interest in democracy or a common humanity. the 1% wage class war on the rest of us and we roll over and take it. bad government is the fault of the people who let it happen - we are all too busy with the bread and circusses served up for our 'benefit' (like squabbling on the internet) to seriously challenge a system where a minority laugh at us poor sods, while handing each other huge amounts of unearned income. (again) -does anyone think that the current system is sensible or fair? why do we continue to vote for the interchangeable (in uk and usa at least) parties who offer us slightly modified more of the same?

mgm - re name calling etc. it is not just the left who do this -we are all equally guilty of getting over-heated at times. as a general rule, i would think that folk on the left should have more respect for each other. we know that capitalists like to divide and rule, to encourage fear and hatred of the other - but our (red!) standards should be higher than that.

and it is quite rare that we answer each others' points -it is quicker and easier to mock or insult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM

I mean ~~ he wants me in a straitjacket. Stone dead...

And why? Doesn't like my politics. That's all he's got.

Well, I don't like his. But he can walk free, for my part, and continue living. Just hope it keeps fine for him, knowing all these things whose absence provoke him into such furies aren't going to happen. It's all a conspiracy by ... well, not quite sure who, apart from poor little me...

Richard came clean. Doesn't like my politics, so declared explicitly that that laid me open, without question, to all the abuse going -- just 6 posts back: scroll up.

Oh, they are a fragrant lot, aren't they? Scream & yell for freedom & equality ~~ for everyone who agrees with their fatuities. The rest of us deserve their abuse just for not agreeing with them.

I mean, dontcha love 'em! Aren't they just too priceless! Ought to be in some sort of museum.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:00 PM

might be an idea just to ignore any insults - surely the topic should be more interesting than pointless 'he started it' comments. if it is just about the insults then it looks as if we have no coherent answers for each others' points

and lets face it-most of us have a history of being less than courteous on many other threads here. indeed some of us go back to the old bbc 2 chat room days.

(what a bunch of idle, pathetic, childish moronic tossers we are!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:42 PM

Let's try that again. MtheGM, you serve the cause of those whose credo is self-interest, who actively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich.

You have earned the abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM

Abuse right back to you, Brige, you simplistic naïf booby.

So how much further are we? And who do you take the great Richard Bridge to be, to decide who deserves what? What are his qualifications for such august decision-making?

Booby. Droopy-drawers. Snotnose. Lollilegs.

Or, if you prefer, I consider your Weltnschauung to be jejune and unintelligent and unacceptable.

Under my hand and seal this -- day of -- 20--.

Your indisputable superior


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 02:49 PM

That is


Bridge



I beg your very pardon


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:08 PM

... & are you certain your name is Bridge & not O'Brien ~~ you would make an expemplary member of the Thought Police...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 05:29 PM

Capitalism makes us all Tories.
I've been a communist/Socialist all my life, but as I near the end I have come to understand that these are only labels......it is the system which is the real enemy, it turns us all into hypocrits.

I remember Mrs Thatchers masterstroke....the right to buy ones council house. I saw people who had cursed her as a political witch, fall over themselves to take advantage of the huge discounts, regardless of the damage it was to do to society.
Regardless of the time and effort given by the founding fathers of the Labour Party to ensure the poorest adequate housing.

I think Mthe GM is right, tho' he is quite capable of being nastily abusive himself....in saying that the Lefties here are more vicious in their language than the conservatives and I think the reason is that we know our message is flawed.
No one wants to sacrifice themselves in this system, our principles have been eroded, we are simply consumers....the bottom feeders of the Capitalist system....we are phoneys....angry, nasty phoneys who cling to our last bastion....equality, when we know only to well that equality and capitalism are completely incompatible.

But we can fix it!.......can't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:26 PM

I think you've been drinking, MtheGM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:30 PM

Interestingly, Richard Bridge aka O'Brien, I do not drink. I stopped drinking alcohol completely over 10 years ago because I suddenly realised that I have actually never liked it - and look at the money I save! Can't imagine what, among the justified animadversions I made against you, can have provoked such an accusation ~~ unless it be the calculated and deliberate childishness of some of the epithets I aimed in parody of your approach to supposed argument. Still, this is a barren exchange which I propose to pursue no further.

Regards

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:45 PM

Ake ~~ I admit that I do occasionally allow myself to be provoked into responding in kind to abuse: but, I hope, infrequently, and I always make a point of apologising after. My principle is to avoid the use of what is conventionally regarded as objectionable vocabulary ~~ the "strong language" which tv programme makers issue warnings about at the beginning of transmissions.

I apologise again for my occasional failures to conform to this principle of mine.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:56 AM

MtheGM, you serve the cause of those whose credo is self-interest, who actively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich.

Richard, that may be your view, but it is not that of MtheGM or others who are not of the Far Left.
"oppressing the workers" is not one of their aims, and they believe their path will lead to a better life for all.
They might be right.
Coal miners in the Soviet Union "workers paradise" had much worse conditions, longer hours and shorter lives than British ones.
Coal miners in Communist China are worse off still.

Explain why you disagree and hold the abuse.
You may think they deserve it, but it only makes you look incapable of supporting your case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 04:22 AM

"I have come to understand that these are only labels......it is the system which is the real enemy, it turns us all into hypocrits."

I agree ake. I'm not worried about MGM's name-calling, it betrays the vacuity of his arguments as it does with anyone else. We were having an interesting debate on the royal veto thread until the usual old bilge started about the 'lefties'. Yawn. It's tiresome, intended to goad and provoke a reaction and it's not surprising some respond rather, er, directly.

For what it's with, I think the absolutism that threatens UK politics is a real worry. The drift towards more free-market economics simply doesn't make sense when there is no evidence that it works; Blair et al took it to it's logical conclusion and we now know unregulated capitalism is utterly incapable of reigning in it's worst excesses and leads to inequality, environmental disaster and the creation of a politico-corporate elite that essentially run the country in their own interests.

A socially responsible form of capitalism is the only way forward, with the infrastructure, NHS and education being held for the nation by the state, and the free-market made to serve the interests of the country as well as generate profit for the shareholders.

Oh yes, and we need to start making things again. Soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:06 AM

Not much one can disagree with there, SF. But "Lefties" seems to me a useful term for those with certain views which are unquestionably towards what is is conventionally thought of as the left-wing of the political spectrum, resulting in predictable attitudes to matters under discussion --

"Lefty may refer to ...
an adherent of left-wing politics" (wikipedia)


: simply a useful term, with no necessarily intrinsic pejorative overtones, to summarise a certain mindset ~~ one which I make no secret of disagreeing with in general, but factual rather than hostile in use and intention.

If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:18 AM

Sorry; not sure how, but part of that last post vanished in transmission. Here it is in full ~~

Not much one can disagree with there, SF. But "Lefties" seems to me a useful term for those with certain views which are unquestionably towards what is is conventionally thought of as the left-wing of the political spectrum, resulting in predictable attitudes to matters under discussion --

"Lefty may refer to ...
an adherent of left-wing politics" (wikipedia)

Now, how can that be denounced as 'name-calling? Is it not simply a useful term, with no necessarily intrinsic pejorative overtones, to summarise a certain mindset? ~~ one which I make no secret of disagreeing with in general, but factual rather than hostile in use and intention.

If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 05:56 AM

soviet union was never a 'workers paradise' -this phrase was always used cynically by the dictatorship or sarcastically by the conservatives/capitalists.
in what sense is today's china 'communist?'
lets say, eg, a 'worker's paradise' is a state where we all have reasonably paid employment,a chance to make more without exploiting others, a fair tax system and a state prepared to ensure good education, health and social security. at least in theory, most sensible governments would aspire to this goal if they are working for the benefit of their citizens.
Here we have a low wage, high rent economy. there is rising unemployment, food and energy prices, homelessness, use of food banks etc. people hold on to poorly paid, unrewarding jobs for fear of worse. a large part of our young people have very few prospects -my own with 3 and a half degrees between them can't afford a driving lesson, never mind a deposit for a house -with only bar and retail jobs to be had.
yet this is the 5th richest economy in the world - with the lack of workers rights and general apathy of the people -this is the perfect condition for a capitalists' paradise.
in general terms the labels we put on systems or countries don't really mean much anymore (eg what does 'liberal' mean now-here and in he usa?) it's just free-market global capitalism backed by (awe inspiring) military might against the world. the old labour/tory -democrat/republican games do not mean anything much either - nor do the democratic wishes of the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:54 AM

"If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?"

I'm sorry, I've just found out Jeremy Hunt is the new Health Secretary. I'm speechless, depressed and shocked. For crying out loud.

I need to lie down before I answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:02 AM

Never you mind MGM!

One day you'll be in Marks and Spencer and walk into the ladies changing rooms by mistake - and there will be Margaret - all blonde curls and French knickers!

Oh MGM! she'll say, you can handle my privatisations, and I know YOU won't be a wet...

Trust me! bound to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:08 AM

in what sense is today's china 'communist?

The Communist Party of China, also known as the Chinese Communist Party, is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China.

We have a housing crisis because no government has built enough for decades.
It is not a left/Right issue.
Immigration alone far outstrips the new provision.

Similar answers to your other points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:13 AM

I must admit, I find it hard to discover what socialists like. They are forever going on about what they don't like, and whom.
Two quotes to keep you posting.

"Socialism is the politics of envy"

"Socialism consists, not of raising everyone UP to the same level, but of dragging everybody DOWN to the same level"

;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:36 AM

How many workers flee S.Korea for the Marxist North?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:41 AM

And how many, 20+ years ago in the days of the Wall, fled West Berlin for East Berlin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 07:44 AM

"The Communist Party of China, also known as the Chinese Communist Party, is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China."

It's communist in name only, and we all know that. A totalitarian regime takes advantage of a workforce that's paid very poorly, have no workplace rights, are made itinerant so they can be relocated where needed without regard for the very fabric of society. What you have there is a workforce who are basically slaves, a resource for manufacturing and construction.

The thing is, to compete with these countries is it won't be socialists dragging down everyone to the same level as a Chinese worker, it'll be the political/corporate elite that runs the economy. Of course, they won't be included.

"If you don't like it, what term do you suggest should replace it?"

It's not the terms as such, but the inflammatory nature of them that to my mind fudges the issue by creating barriers instantly. I don't care if people are left or right, I care whether they are for us as a society or for themselves, whether they are fair or compassionate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:00 AM

Oh, come on, SFJ ~~ you made an inaccurate and hurtful and explicit accusation against me of 'name-calling'. When I point out that I was not calling any names [in the pejorative sense of using insulting vocatives], but just employing a succinct and accepted term as a recognised shorthand for a particular instantly recognisable complex of opinions, you immediately change tack and pretend you were just striving for some sort of MOR, non-'inflammatory', expression redolent of compassion and justice.

Well, it won't wash. Justify your offensive accusation or apologise, please.

Go on -- or, in the immortal words of the great progenitor of this thread, are you frit?

Cowardy Custard!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:04 AM

"ctively seek to undermine the welfare state, who actively seek to oppress the workers and those unable to work, who take from the poor to give to the rich"

All fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:08 AM

whether they are for us as a society or for themselves, whether they are fair or compassionate.

?
Who here does that disqualify Jack?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:10 AM

""I don't care if people are left or right, I care whether they are for us as a society or for themselves, whether they are fair or compassionate.""

Just so long as they're not Tory voters, eh!

Not even moderate Tories.

That's the impression that you and almost all of the left leaning UK Mudcatters give.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:11 AM

All fact.

No, it is not fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:12 AM

Do you think of yourself as a worker, Richard? Better stay out of my way, then, hadn't you ~~ or you won't half get oppressed. Why, every member of the working community of this village flees when they see me approach, for fear of my terrible oppressions.

Honestly, Richard, if I were as stupid as you I should keep quiet about it, not go on&on&on&on&on demonstrating the fact the way you do.

Best regards as ever

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 10:05 AM

"Just so long as they're not Tory voters, eh!"

Not true at all. I know many tory voters I would happily have a pint and a tune with. In that respect, I don't care in some ways. But you know, there's a reason for everything.

I was in the Young Conservatives once (co-opted onto the committee by Nick Robinson, now BBC political correspondent), and what I saw went against the grain for me personally. I didn't like the dismissal of huge swathes of the populace as sponging scum, the myopic adherence to nuclear weapons, an appalling sense of entitlement because of wealth and a wider sense of misanthropy that even included the dealings they had with each other. One of the final straws came when it turns out our local MP had set up a bank account into which local business were depositing cash outside of the party itself . . . 'backhanders' was the word on everyone's lips within the association. When challenged in a private meeting he went purple, spluttered and went ballistic - a real sight to see. He protested way too much. No surprise then when it turns out he was one of the many thieving MPs and stood down at the next election.

Eventually, in between the boozing sessions we invited a bloke from Shelter to a debate about social housing and after a feisty exchange during which he totally demolished the arguments of the sons of the local well-to-do. He then declared himself a committed socialist and he'd discuss any subject, an offer that was eagerly taken up. He then proceeded to give a good account of himself of an ever more hostile group, many of whom ended up doing no more than taking the piss and calling him a "leftie" etc etc rather than debating the points. I was impressed. At the same time I was doing an English Lit. O Level and our tutor (another socialist) recommended Pygmalion, which I loved and which demonstrated the problems of inequality and the class system had existed for many years and were still relevant.

I went to the rally in the 1983 election at Wembley where I heard Parkinson, Thatcher and Everett speak (Everett was the best by a country mile) amongst others. I patted Thatcher on the back (true). On the way home we stopped at Watford Gap services where a coach from the people's march for jobs was also halted on the trip north to home. YC's went out and stickered the bus the people were on with pro-tory propaganda, and proceeded to sneer and mock them when they pointed out the damage to the coach. A couple of ladies came on the bus to remonstrate with the yobs but they were shouted down in the most disrespectful manner. That was it. I was disgusted, shocked and decided I wanted no part of this any more, these were not my kind of people. I had heard the party great and good talk about their superior values and in the next breath dismiss people fighting for their jobs and communities as worthless hangers-on. This spurred on the boorish whelps that largely made up and typified the junior association. I then resigned on political grounds (possibly the only YC ever to have done so). I missed the access to beer and the debates, but that was about it.

Next issue: What I hate about the Labour Party (second in a series of three).

"Cowardy Custard!"

Bah! That's it. If you're going to be mean I'm not playing no more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:25 AM

Bah! That's it. If you're going to be mean I'm not playing no more.
The confusing use of double-negatives makes it difficult to extract the meaning from your comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 11:38 AM

It ain't not my fault you talk reet posh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:06 PM

blimey, reminds me of a set essay I had to write for my Ideology & Culture course at Poly 30 odd years ago..

"Knowledge is power, but condescending bourgeois conceits of superior grammar and vocabulary
are a tool of oppression - discuss"



... buggered if I can remember the question title word for word,
but that's near enough to bring back hazy memories of
occupying the student union bar and Girl's Hall of Residence in protest
about something or other Thatcher& her henchmen were getting up to
to piss off us lefty students....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM

See SFJ ~~ GUEST.pfr unselfconsciously uses the term 'lefty' of himself and his fellow-students as a succinct and accurate label; not a 'name-call'. You haven't replied to my indubitable and total demolition of you on this topic, except to take your ball and sneak off home in a sulk.

Cowardy Custard again --- in ♠♠♠ with brass-knobs on. + yah sucks-boo!

Likewise nyyyyAAAHHHHHH!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:43 PM

ahh.. but.. MtheGM, there is a severe distinctionbetween "us" using the term 'lefty'
as a jocular self-deprecating ironic 'nickname';
and "them" using it as a dismissive term of abuse...

noting that other 'oppressed' groups similarly appropriate established terms of derision
as an act of militant empowerment...

eg, 'Cider Heads'....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 12:56 PM

Do you really think the lefties an oppressed minority, pfr? Seems to me that, on this forum at least, they are the oppressive majority and we of the somewhat further right [I wouldn't call myself a 'rightie' exactly ~~ more a sort of floating MOR-er when it comes to politics] the oppressed minority, constantly under self-righteous and priggish attack for having the effrontery to disagree with their arrogant pronouncements. See, e.g., Richard's explicit and barefaced assertion that I 'deserve' to be abused because I won't accept his grotesque premises; which makes me an 'oppressor of the poor' an 'underminer of the welfare state, 'a robber of the poor to give to the rich' [as if ~~ if I could contrive to rob anyone, I should keep it for myself, thanks very much!]. So go on being a lefty - which is not a name, merely an objective category-name which you have acknowledged - and I hope it keeps fine for you.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:16 PM

well.. ermmm.. let's put it this way...

whatever I was in my youth, and whatever I may be now as I approach my mid 50s;

the only certainty I confidently cling to is that I'll never vote Tory;
or ever again vote tactically for the Liberals.

So, it seems I'm stuck with whatever the Labour party has left to offer,
as I can't be arsed with any half baked fringe alternative hippy green parties..

However, if anyone starts up a left of centre "Cider, Electric Guitars and Nudey Mixed Sauna Party..???


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 01:51 PM

well the fact was your section of the country was a robber, Mike. The tory constituencies were 'taken care of' in the Thatcher years and the rest of the country went to hell in a hand cart.

Den's relations living in Suffolk used to say to us - recession, what recession. this in aperiod were nearly every coal mine was closed. When about five mikles of steel mils outside Sheffield shrunk to one factory.

She told you you could build an economy on real estate values and service industries and YOU lot voted for it.

I'm sorry you can't see the facts or attempt to seem them as they were for many people in England. But it was very hard not to feel bitter towards tory voterif you lived in the vortex of all that suffering.

I suppose we're going that shit now about - it was all the fault of wicked working class unions having beer and sandwiches at number 19 with Harold Wison. If you actually worked in industry - you know that was bollocks - the shit leadership and lack of investment buggered our industries. Very few working people did anything except work very hard for not much money.

All one class's fault - and we all know which party is for giving them tax breaks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM

interesting and thoughtful post SFJ -the one about falling out with the tory party- you are a better man than I. i was just reading in the paper about how, come next april, 90,000 disabled folk are due to have mobility scooters, cars repossessed following reductions in government disability allowance. this latest wheeze by the current lot is hardly a surprise though does seem unusually heartless, even by their standards. i'm afraid i am way beyond going out for a pint with an advocate or supporter of such things as this. i look at the prospects for my children in the current climate and won't forgive those who are responsible. I see folk buying the Mail or Telegraph and think 'Aren't you worried people will think like i do - you're a Tory bastard?'

in all other respects though -i am quite a happy chap.really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:36 PM

incidentally - see that picture of jeremy hunt on the bbc news website? would you ever get tired of punching that face? (in the unlikely event you got tired of punching michael gove and were looking for something else to do)

even mild mannered old peace and love hippies can have disturbingly enjoyable violent fantasies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

Michael Gove ? he perpetually looks like a surprised cod.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 02:58 PM

Don't be silly MtheGM. Or Keith.

The conservatives are dismantling the welfare state.
They are bent on demolishing - indeed are demolishing workers rights.
They take from the poor (welfare cuts) and give to the rich (reduction in top rate of tax).

These are facts. Pretending that they are not merely makes you look ridiculous. The immorality of such policies is equally obvious.


You defend the creators and implementers of such policies. Pretending otherwise merely makes you look ridiculous.


You richly deserve all the opprobrium in which you are held.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:03 PM

Don - may I remind you of your words on the "American values" thread? Why don't you apply them to conservative Britain?


"""It was just a reassertion of the basic values of American political culture: self-determination, individual aspiration and genuine community, as opposed to belief in the state as the fount of all social virtue."""

No Sawz, a return to the old Republican mantra, as follows:-

1. The value of a citizen is directly proportional to the number of zeros on his paycheck.

2. A smack in the mouth or a bullet are the answer to all disputes.

3. The poor schmucks who work their socks off to produce the wealth for the valued citizens, if they get sick, can choose. Go without treatment, or starve!!

After all, they're just indolent losers who don't have the ambition to join the seven zero elite.

That's the ""basic values of American political culture:"" you are talking about, and it is nothing more or less than a measure of how far your America is from genuine civilisation.

Thank God most here don't listen to your crap.

Don T."


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 03:49 PM

right enough -people here generally don't listen to that crap. however enough of us do vote in a way that allows governments to pursue policies that are not that dissimilar. republican-lite - tories, with the other main parties not much better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 06:59 PM

I don't have any hatred or opprobrium for Keith and Mike - they aree good men and valued friends.

They obviously disagree with me and you Richard. But so do thousands of other people.

They haven't seen what we have seen, and in a way - they're lucky. I sort of envy them. If you didn't witness what Thatcher did to this country from the bottom in society - you didn't have a ringside seat to one of the nastiest episodes in this country's history.

Not as messy as the Black Death - but quite as many victims, and the country's industrial heart ripped out for corrupt profiteers and asset strippers - as surely as if done by one of Henry VIII's executioners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 08:54 PM

""I was in the Young Conservatives once (co-opted onto the committee by Nick Robinson, now BBC political correspondent), and what I saw went against the grain for me personally. I didn't like the dismissal of huge swathes of the populace as sponging scum, the myopic adherence to nuclear weapons, an appalling sense of entitlement because of wealth and a wider sense of misanthropy that even included the dealings they had with each other.""

So you allowed yourself to be co-opted into the biggest group of arrogant, ignorant opinionated arseholes on the planet, devoid of empathy and compassion and most of all real life experience, and decided that was the measure of Tory voters across the board?

That puts you firmly in the Richard Bridge camp of left wing thought, devoid of empathy and compassion and most of all knowledge of the reasons why people choose not to vote for the long list of Labour crooks, weasels and incompetents who have fucked up everything they touched since Wilson won in 1964.

The last chance we had to vote for a socialist government vanished with the death of John Smith.

I have only the choice of two Tory parties, and I would rather try to make a difference to the real one by getting involved, than join Millipede's ersatz Army of incompetent twerps.

Don T.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Sep 12 - 09:17 PM

""3. The poor schmucks who work their socks off to produce the wealth for the valued citizens, if they get sick, can choose. Go without treatment, or starve!!

After all, they're just indolent losers who don't have the ambition to join the seven zero elite.
""

You just make yourself look stupid by trying to conflate the situation in the USA where the poor are allowed to go without sufficient food or medical care, with the situation in the UK where they are supported and will continue to be so, unless of course you get lucky and Millipede gets into power.

Then you will see the country go downhill.

A coalition is the right government for this country right now, and your friends in the so-called "Labour" party could have been a part of it, but they wanted the Tories to get all the blame for what has to be done, so they scuttled away and now content themselves with hurling shit from the sidelines.

And you have the nerve to tell me I voted for the wrong side.

I can take that with equanimity from Al and Pete, who at least suffered loss from the disintegration of Steel and Mining, though I disagree that Thatcher presided over anything more than the final stage of a long established decline. I can take it from them because I respect their sincerity of belief in what they say, and the comparatively moderate tone of their posts.

What I cannot and will not take at face value are the rantings of a bitter, twisted champagne socialist, who never suffered the loss of the contents of his wine cellar, let alone any real hardship.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 02:58 AM

Don - we are already seeing restrictions on NHS treatment due to budget cuts. We are already seeing privatised parts of the service getting priority over parts still publicly owned. We are already seeing those unable to work being deprived of support. Plans announced only this week allow cuts of up to 71% in benefits if those unable to work fail to adhere to "back-to-work programmes".

Open your eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:03 AM

Sorry I hadn't meant to seem moderate.

Of course British industry was in a tailspin after the war. American capital got off its ass, and recapitalised in turns Europe, Japan, and now unforvivably the Peoples republic of China.

So the SS guards who did foryour family Mike, retired with a better pension than the guys like my Dad who liberated the death camps.

Remember how everybody wanted a a volkswagen and a grundig tape recorder in the 1950's. Whilst in Engand British Leyland factories managed with 60 year old track, and the upper classes fretted about about keeping their estates together and the ridiculous wages domestic servants were asking.

Doesn't mean to say it was right, Don. Doesn't mean to say that a government who colluded and speeded up this process was right, morally untouchable. Doesn'r mean it was inevitable.

As Sir John Harvey Jones said in the year Thatcher sent 28% of manufacturing jobs to the wall - most of those jobs were in good viable businesses.

lets just get its straight. Richard and I are singing from the same hymn sheet on this one. I suspect as a lawyer you get to see all the repossessions and fuck ups that Thatcher and her little short sighted shopping basket have perpetrated. You shouldn't sneer at a man for his profession.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:26 AM

Richard, if a different party were in power or coalition, they would also be cutting.
Labour has cut those same services in the past.
True?
No money. Vast debt. Few options.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 08:41 AM

Raise income tax, and recover the cost of NHS treatment given to those who do not qualify for said treatment.
The NHS writes off thousands of pounds per annum, which it deems unrecoverable. This is unpaid bills for NHS treatment given to non EEC citizens.
There are many things like that, which could be tidied up, which would help our budgetary shortfall
Governments should concentrate of running a tight ship, and leave the social engineering legislation, for less fraught times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 01:18 PM

"So you allowed yourself to be co-opted into the biggest group of arrogant, ignorant opinionated arseholes on the planet, devoid of empathy and compassion and most of all real life experience, and decided that was the measure of Tory voters across the board?"

No - but I had plenty of insight on how the party machine works on a branch, constituency and county level, and we were politically active as you might expect being guided by a chap like Nick (who I really liked, despite being politically miles apart from him). Allowed myself to be co-opted? No way, I worked to being co-opted because I was interested in politics, even at that tender age. Shine on, when you're canvassing for a tory on a rough estate full of angry people being hit the hardest you can either listen and learn or turn the other cheek, and life is for learning.

To think you get a skewed viewpoint of being a branch committee member, activist and someone actually interest in politics at 16 is nonsense; my opinions are based around doing and learning, talking to politically active people and politicians and are not the result of some indoctrination I was helpless to resist.

Shine on, why am I justifying myself to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 03:04 PM

well of course you're absolutely right Keith. There is a disturbing similarity between Conservative and New Labour. However, I do think that Labour has a better record on recognising the human factor when it comes to policies and how they are implemented.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM

""You shouldn't sneer at a man for his profession.""

I don't sneer at him for his profession, but by the same token I feel there is a case to be made that a man who posts extremist views advocating revolution and wishes a long and painful death on another human being is somewhat of a disgrace to that profession.

Added to that, a specialisation in copyright law, would hardly bring a deep and abiding understanding of the problems of the poorest in society.

Richard Bridge, for all his protestations of socialist ethics, is not and never was a member of that section of the population, and is in fact the epitome of the New Labour shit hurling from the sidelines brigade.

I am doing more to try to temper the actions of the party I voted for by constantly challenging my MP, who is somewhat of a rebel, and reminding her that the votes of people like me will be needed in 2015 and will not be forthcoming if we are not listened to.

I don't think Mark Reckless is going to be frightened of losing Richard's vote, which he never had in the first place.

You will no doubt have gathered that I am on the far left wing of the currently ruling party, and doing my best to drag others in that direction.

If there is ever another SOCIALIST party I shall vote for it, but I'm afraid anybody who thinks that party will arise from the current Millipede crowd of incompetent cowards, is definitely backing the wrong horse.

So howsabout all you genuine socialists getting together and producing something I can vote for.



Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 02:25 AM

Well Don - the alternatives are very stark.

As some charcter in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy put it - we are America's street walker. Really that seems to take care of the options on foreign policy. Wilson was the last PM to tell America to get stuffed (over Vietnam remember - Heath wanted a couple of battallions in there, not just cheering from the sidelines (his words)) And economically - we paid for it.

The MI5/MI6, whoever they are, who subverted democracy and got Thatcher elected (remember Spycathcer) - they seem to go untouched , whatever regime is in charge.

I was remonstrating with a young Trot who was doing some kind of protest one time , and he said call it Labour or Conservative, Clap or VD, its all the same!   And after Blair and WMD's - I can see his point.

And keith may be right. Perhaps Labour would have closed all those coalmies, and the steel industry, and every thing that supplied those industries, and left the posh twits in charge of the car industry - I saw that last from the inside. Labour might, okay probably WOULD have done all that, albeit not with such sadistic relish - and crminalising and abusing the working and dependent classes. ( on your bike, and Peter Lilly's Gilbert and Sullivan parody about disabled folk and unmarried mothers - oh how we laughed! - anyone?)

However I can't imagine Labour doing those things without attempting some regeneration of the areas, help for families who had lost a source of income that had held communities together for two hunderd years, some compassion, moving big government offices into the areas - not just tax breaks for cunts like Michael Caine.

I repect your choices Don. But they're your choices. If you had been taking care of a disabled wife since 1976 like I have - I don't think they would have been your choices. The view is different from the bottom of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:35 AM

I think you have that about right Al.

Although the hypocrisy of New labour ....and to some extent old labour was evident, to call oneself a supporter of "real" socialism and then vote Tory, takes a very special twist of mind....or the ability to lie through ones teeth.

Although I seem to be regarded as being about the bottom of the mudcat "food chain", I never lie(knowingly), nor have I ever voted Tory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 03:54 AM

'
Although I seem to be regarded as being about the bottom of the mudcat "food chain'

you and me kid! I was trying to decide whether to classify myself as contemporary folk music or as a living legend for mahogany folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 04:35 AM

A climate change denier in charge of energy.
A woman who has opposed most equality measures as equality minister.
An anti-abortionist with a proven record of selling out to big money in charge of the NHS.

Oh what a fine upstanding body this government is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 05:45 AM

And a culture secretary whose previous job included closing down Remploy. Jeez.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 05:55 AM

So show me an alternative with clearly expressed policies and some clue as to how they will be funded.

Labour is making all sorts of vague promises to "deal with" this and that, but not a word about HOW, and even less about WHERE THEY'LL FIND THE DOSH!

Put 'em in power and they'll fall back on the old ways and try to borrow their way out of debt. I can attest to the fact that that doesn't work, as can anyone who has taken out a "consolidation" loan.

Bottom line,....Labour will consolidate this country to bankruptcy.

We're better off putting our energy into changing the way the government we've got conducts business, and that can only be done by a sufficient number of us getting inside the system.

So you stand on the sidelines and shout if you must. I'll stay inside and push.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM

Didn't realise you were in the government, Don....? What is it you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: stallion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 04:25 AM

Apologise for not reading all the posts and this might already have been said but wishing a horrendous death on Maggie Thatcher isn't really on my mind in spite of me and my family suffering desperately because of her governments policies. But then I couldn't see the point of hounding an 80+ years old Pinochet and the 80+ year old former Nazis, however we should concentrate on Robert Mugabe's regime, only one should be careful what is on ones wish list as it may be replaced with something worse. I think the answer to the pinochet Nazis thing, apart from the fact they were conspirators to murder, is for people to get closure by apparent justice and the same is for Thatcher, whilst Pinochet and the Nazis killed a lot of people I never knew those people but I did know lots of people who had their houses repossessed and one person that killed himself because of it, we only managed to hang on to our house by a substantial gift from a family member, we lost our business, income, self esteem, we hit the absolute pits, pay dropped by 60%, I was working my arse off with three kids and still getting free school meals. So with the death of Thatcher I will get closure on a difficult, stressful hard part of my life that didn't right itself til labour got in, and was fine until the greedy pals of thatcher threw the spanner in the works.
On this thread I have read people claiming to be capitalists free marketeers, fi I say, they are Fascists. A free labour market to the capitalist/Fascist is the right to fire anyone at will for no good reason, whereas I could probably stomach that if they would accept that the working people had the right to withdraw their labour for no good reason without the union funds being sequestrated, ah you see that is where capitalism falls down it has to rig the labour market, in fact it rigs all markets, libor insider trading, lobbying political figures, do me a favour you defenders of a morally corrupt system admit you're all armchair, I'm alright Jack, fascists!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:06 AM

If you mean me, no.
I agree about the importance of manufacturing.
Which political philosophy would most industrialists and entrepreneurs favour for them to prosper and succeed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: stallion
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:24 AM

Wasn't rounding on anyone in particular,
Nothing seems to have worked effectively, I think the political system has to change. On the one hand a truly free market at it's basest level of supply and demand but there are to many inbetweeners wanting a cut. Rents are too high in the UK, killing high streets, sucking money out of the economy in rent support on dwellings, reducing peoples disposable income, increasing wages. Not the only problem but a large one. On the other the chinese model, it seems to be working (ah but only for a few!) I wonder why that Russia and China took so readily to capitalism without a meaningful democracy? Was it because they had a track record of corrupt dictatorial institutions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 05:44 AM

Rents ARE too high, and property not affordable even for well paid professionals.
There has never been such a housing crisis.
Why are there so many less homes than people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:12 AM

Get out of the EEC. Then we would be free to subsidise manufacturers, in order to provide employment for people. The inability to encourage industry or investment in jobs, by means of financial support, or reduced outgoings, like business rate rebates, among others, is a serious restriction on our ability to increase manufacturing, and thereby employment in the UK.
Many of the closures blamed on Thatcher, and her inheritors have been brought about at the behest of the EEC. The almost total destruction of our fishing industry is a direct consequence of selling them down the swanee, as part of the price paid to join this association of fiddlers, and overpaid bureaucrats. Same organisation hasn't had their acounts signed off for about 10 years. If it was business it would be closed down.
At least Thatcher managed to obtain a rebate of part of our contributions, which TB later gave back. Who then is the betrayer of British industriy, and interests?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 06:57 AM

We have a black card economy where the richest are exempt from tax.

I think its pretty obviious when a socialialist govt. does get elected in England - they get the riot act read to them and told not to do what need s to be done or there will a right wing coup. That Spycatcher book really did lay it on theline who runs England. And democracy doesn't really come into it.

Watergate would never have happened in England. The corrupt bastards are never called to account.

What needs to be done is to give the queen and her mates a salary of a million quid. take their wealth and get those people who sit in the dragons den and and can recognise a decent business idea to invest the money. Run the rotyal estates and art collections as businesses. Provide decent housing and healthcare for everybody.

Should get the economy moving. But will it happen, will it buggery...
You wanted an alternative to kisssing the bums of the toffs, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:00 AM

By buggery, I posted a thoughtful well prosed counter opinion to some of this debate yesterday and it seems to have cocked up as it isn't here.

No matter, I was only taking the piss out of Bridge's hilarious hypocrisy.

On a walking holiday in The Highlands so Internet access is limited to say the least. That said, this thread, whilst a desperately sad indictment of a disgraceful ex politician does manage to throw up the odd chuckle.

1. My dear Bridge, two points. First, a person's view reflecting self interest is not a viable excuse to treat them with contempt. Although someone who prostitutes themselves to defend their self interest in courts may wish to reconsider their earlier stance? Secondly, The NHS has not just started rationing care for reasons. Of cost, they have been doing it since 1948. The budget is the budget, not the budget plus a few pennies. Sad, but other than making savings elsewhere or raising taxes, 'twas ever thus.

2.. Akenaton, I noticed a comment from you that I entirely agree with.

3. Comparing this lot to Th*tcher's tenure is to forget how bad it was, and most importantly, how it was to a plan rather than Camerom's well intentioned but stupid sticking plaster approach.

4. Hunt in charge of The NHS? A friend commented the other day that he had no idea Murdoch had diversified into private healthcare.

Just wanted to get that last bit in before a telly comic takes credit for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:54 AM

""You wanted an alternative to kisssing the bums of the toffs, Don.""

The word you were searching for is "kicking" Al, not kissing.

But at least it shows the weakness of your argument.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 10:55 AM

I always wonder where the self promoting Anthony Wedgewood (Looney) Benn comes in the heirarchy when "toffs" are denigrated by a class warrior. I mean he preaches socialism, he renounced his peerage (Only so as he could stay as an MP) but. I don't think he gave his money to the poor and needy, or moved to a council estate. It's the big fish in a small pond, syndrome.
So as far as I'm concerned he's what I'd call a 'trimmer'. or a right old Vicar of Bray.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,punfolkrocker
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:05 AM

Although easy to be suspicious of the likes of born toff Tony Benn....

Back in the 80's,
a council estate raised polytechnic educated young lefty
respected him for his qualities as an inspiring radical intellect and orator..

likewise, Paul Foot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 11:43 AM

So rich people can't become socialists now? Good to see the class system's intact, and I bet there are some toffs in the cabinet who are very pleased it doesn't work the other way around as the working class tories abandoning the party would mean any chance of re-election would disappear in a puff of smoke.

Tony Benn, whom I met very briefly last year was an excellent chap, an intellectual who realised the injustice of a system he was born into and worked to alter that. He was very interested in what I did for a living and was an engaging and thoughtful speaker.

Of course politicians generally hate people who can think for themselves, the right more than the left in my experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:42 PM

How do the left react to the upwardly mobile working class person then? I bet they are called traitors!
It's OK to elect to be downwardly mobile, but I suspect, not upwardly ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM

No I was being serious Don. You say we can't afford t borrow money to invest in our country -its infrastructure, the education of kids, housing, the health service, etc.

I'm just saying okay - so we don't borrow. We use the resources that are ours anyway - the stuff in thwe tight clammy little hands of class betters - sitting there doing nowt except getting invested in slave labour in the third world by city types. We take it, invest it England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 01:21 PM

"How do the left react to the upwardly mobile working class person then?"

I dunno. I'm one of them chattering middle class pseudo-intellectuals with leanings towards Marxism, environmentalism and traditional Irish music and I believe in the power of science and art to illuminate our world and the human condition, and furthermore I believe compassion to all our fellows should be the motivating factor in creating a better society for all, but realising our own potential can only be achieved through hard work and personal discipline.

I still love a good curry and getting pissed though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MikeL2
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 02:44 PM

Hi

<" Labour is making all sorts of vague promises to "deal with" this and that, but not a word about HOW, and even less about WHERE THEY'LL FIND THE DOSH!">

Thought that is the Coalition and they are the Government aren't they???

Cheers

Mikel2


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,petecockermouth
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 02:53 PM

bloody hell, sugar- you just need to add live music and walking in the lovely wild bits and you are describing my life.

re tony benn - has been a consistent and compassionate voice on the left all his adult life. what's not to like? and what's more, when we invited all the well-known people we like to our wedding a few years back, he was on the only one who got in touch* personally, talking on the phone to mscockermouth for 15 minutes. people like nelson mandela, henrik larsson, jo brand and michael mcgoldrick might appear to be nice guys - but could they be arsed to reply? nor did anyone famous turn up to our 'bring your own lunch box' picnic invitation near a pub near skipton -despite offers of prizes for best box.

* to be fair, kate rusby, hairy bikers and leonard cohen did send apologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 03:01 PM

It's something all politicians of whatever political persuasion do, as a matter of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:44 PM

""We use the resources that are ours anyway - the stuff in thwe tight clammy little hands of class betters - sitting there doing nowt except getting invested in slave labour in the third world by city types. We take it, invest it England.""

Sounds good in theory, but five minutes after a bill was introduced to make that possible, the airlines would be swamped with bookings to the Cayman Islands, or similar, as all those "class betters" leave for parts foreign, taking all that dosh with them.

Scuppered!

(""class betters?"" - what does that mean, by the way, I don't acknowledge any "betters", nor do I claim to be better than anybody else).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 08:50 PM

A couple of hundred Tony Benns in Parliament is exactly what I meant when I talked about a genuine socialist party.

He never was the "red Menace" that some folk claimed, but a genuine socialist, as were John Smith and Bob Marshall-Andrews.

Unfortunately, we have only the one.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 05:11 AM

the problem with your logic Don is that its wrong. the whole point about the black card business is that the funds of the richerst people are in govt. hands already - we wouldn't even have to sequestrate them.

That's how the black card scheme works. they pay no tax, but the govt's got their money, which they invest wisely but amorally.

Look, these people live in one of the best countries in the world. if their flashy health schemes tell them to fuck off cost they cost too much, - the NHS takes care of them; they live securely; they are protected by young poorly paid soldiers and policemen wh will lay down their lives for them; the shops are full; they can afford anything; they have all kinds of wonderful spiritual and political freedom; so much more than than you and I would ever dream of; and the klist goes on; artistic freedom, a beautiful environment....

And it costs. And these guys REALLY are not paying their whack.

These people the Tories that you keep voting for. Its like drinking with some guy who is really shifty, goes to the lav every time its his round. the people you are voting for are cosying up to these people - pretending that they're mates one of the boys. And the're not - they're out for them selves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 07:33 AM

"What needs to be done is to give the queen and her mates a salary of a million quid. take their wealth and get those people who sit in the dragons den and and can recognise a decent business idea to invest the money. Run the rotyal estates and art collections as businesses" - big Al Whittle

Oddly enough Al the Queen does not need the £1 million you offer. The Queen and the whole of the Royal Family do not cost the British Tax Payer so much as one penny, in fact as contributers they pay in a great deal in tax. Amazing display of ignorance on your part Al - particularly liked "Run the royal estates and art collections as businesses" - I think that you find that they already are - and very successfully too in 2011 they put over £242million into the pot. Pity that the Government wasn't as good at running things.

Royal family - pay freeze since 1991 - and they have managed to reduce costs and create a contingency fund of over £31 million in the process.

Don T is quite correct and oddly enough it was Canadian Premier Pierre Trudeau who pointed out that taxing the rich (top 10% pay something like 55% of total tax collected) till the pips squeak (a-lá Denis Healey) means that using the example Trudeau used:

1: You are rich - you can either pay 15% in Canada or 20% in the USA - where do you take your wealth and live?

2: I implement your suggestions - The rich can now pay 25% in Canada or 20% in the USA - where do you take your wealth and live?

If I take your advice and raise taxes and target the rich - we end up collecting less tax than we did before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

Err... I used to be a miner and now I am a dirty rotten stinking capitalist.

Can someone tell me, using the wonderful logic displayed on this thread, whether my 5p I put in a collecting tin the other day makes me a workin class hero or not?

Tony Benn was the MP for Chesterfield when I chaired a local NHS trust. Always got on with him, thought him one of the last of the great orators but to be honest, even when I followed him on stage during the strike, I thought his views unsustainable. Not a problem when you are a bloke in a pub but this guy used to be a minister...

Oh, Paul Foot, as he has been mentioned. Just after the strike, he rummaged in the bins of a neighbour and knocked on our door offering us money to say things against our friend. Ok he got his story albeit without my help. One of the miners who took The NUM to court and got the funds sequestrated for saying we voted to strike when we didn't also happened to be a burglar. So in Foot's view, that made the highlighting of criminal actions by Scargill wrong.

I am not capable of following that logic so perhaps it bars me from joining a socialist utopian outcome to the worries of the world?


Anyway, shouldn't speak ill of the dead eh? Perhaps that is why it is still ok to slag off Th*tcher. On that score, I am at one with armchair socialists and chippy buggers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 05:30 PM

""These people the Tories that you keep voting for. Its like drinking with some guy who is really shifty, goes to the lav every time its his round. the people you are voting for are cosying up to these people - pretending that they're mates one of the boys. And the're not - they're out for them selves.""

IN YOUR OPINION!

Which, I believe, I am free to accept or reject without being called names by either side.

The trouble with you and Mr Bridge (and some others), is that you can't stand the fact that more than 30% of the population vote Tory.

If you took the trouble to examine your figures closely, you would be forced to admit that rich toffs are only a tiny minority of that group. So, what do you think is the reason for more working and middle class people voting Tory than voting Labour?

Could it be the consistent incompetence and dishonesty of successive Labour governments devaluing the currency, allowing the infrastructure to fall into disrepair and allowing the trades unions to run rampant with totally unsustainable wage claims and restrictive practices, which were the true killer of the bulk of British Industry?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 05:59 PM

We disagree. As Dylan said - you're right from your side, Im right from mine....

I knew you'd come up wth all that paranoid shit about labour movement and trade unions who were just trying to stop their members being shit on from a great height, and have probably given you every material advantage that you enjoy. i tried to forestall it - but you've come up with it again.If you have no gratitude or sense of history, or respect for the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the striking miners of Scargill's time- in my eyes you're a bit of fool, and have been taken in by the toffs who write the history books.

You know the drill by now - the battle of Britain was won by Winston Churchill and 'a few decent cheps' who talked like Michael Dennison - not a load of sergeant pilots, many of whom died for us.

As for terribus - there lies, damned lies and statistics. If what you say bears any relation to the truth - why do so may of top rich boys go from the black card tax alternative. Why is English economic life starving for want of investmant funds - all our bright ideas go abroad. Why is there no redistribution of wealth of any appreciable degree. the same lot stay VERY VERY rich. Vote tory and thats what you are voting for.

Of course if you think the Duke of Westminster is entitled to own London. Charles is entitled to own Cornwall. The Queen is entitled to incalculaBLY more. That's okay.

But if you don't believe me, take Jesus's word for it - you either your bury your talents in a field (called the British aristocracy) or you get off you ass and do something positive with the opportunities it offers. the british people has its talent buried deep in that field and you lot are voting for the internment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 01:11 AM

Al ~ I do see where you are coming from; but, like Don, think you mistaken. I remember the 1945 government and the baleful FX from which the country has never recovered; mainly thanks to that sadistic-ascetic would-be do-gooder, The Hon Sir Stafford Cripps, who had all the silly half-digested idealism of Lord Stansgate aka Tony Benn, but, unlike him, had had a charismaectomy which rendered him entirely charmless. I think it worth repeating here FWIW a post I put recently on the 'Reassertion of American values' thread in response to a typical silliness from Richard ···

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 06:24 PM
Oh - and whence the idea that Churchill had any finer principles? Look at his history, and the resounding answer the British people gave him when the right to elections was restored to them.
.,,.,..,
It was the biggest mistake made in our 20C history, the worst and loudest clanger the British electorate ever dropped. So many were fed up with being bossed around by the Officer Class, whom they imagined Churchill to represent, that they elected what they supposed to be his opposite: a party nominally led by Clement Attlee (Winchester & Oxford), but effectively led, as by far the strongest personality, by Stafford Cripps (Winchester & UCL) -- an ultra-puritanical believer in mortification of the body for the good of soul. It was his insistence on the 'austerity' policy of rationing and self-denial, so necessary in the wartime that had just ended, for an inordinate length of time into the postwar period, that enabled the rest of Europe, both the countries that had been occupied by Germany, and, in particular, West Germany itself, to outstrip us in achievement and prosperity. As the saying went, "We won the War but lost the Peace". That would not have happened if Churchill had continued to govern inspirationally as he had from 1940 to 1945. By the time Britain came to its senses in 1951, after six years of Crippsian tyranny, it was too late: he was past it, and his successor Eden was not up to the job. Our nation is still reeling from the dire effect of those six years at such a vital time in what should have been our post-war regeneration but was sabotaged and destroyed by doctrinaire public-school champagne socialists.


~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:21 AM

What is the "black card tax alternative" that you rant on about in this paranoid manner Al?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:08 AM

I've jumped into this thread here and there and not bothered to become engaged as, like many another thread of its ilk, it goes along predictable and unchanging lines. But I thought I might add just a word on Tony Benn.

Benn - whatever you think of his actual political activity and his political stance - is, I believe, one of the few genuinely sincere political figures in this country. People who sneer at him for renouncing his peerage to stay in the Commons should check the facts before writing him off with a sneer.

1. The peerage was awarded to his father in 1941 in an attempt by the coalition government to get more Labour peers into the Lords.

2. The peerage was to have passed to Benn's elder brother Michael - but he was killed in the war (Benn himself served as a pilot in South Africa and Rhodesia).

3. Michael, intending to enter the priesthood, hadn't cared whether he became a peer or not, but Tony Benn genuinely objected to it as it would stop his career in the Commons. He tried to renounce it, unsuccessfully, on several occasions until the law was changed.

I didn't agree with all of Benn's ideas and policies, but he did support British industry as far as he was able, given the time. What I do find interesting is a quote from him which you might apply to our times:

As a minister, I experienced the power of industrialists and bankers to get their way by use of the crudest form of economic pressure, even blackmail, against a Labour Government. Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the IMF secured cuts in our public expenditure. These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is.

Benn also loathed the EEC, calling it bureaucratic and centralised. So - not a crude, two-dimensional man, but one with a range of views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM

2.. "Akenaton, I noticed a comment from you that I entirely agree with."

Sorry Musket, Hope you dont think that I am being discriminatory, but I have no data for your group....the primordial sludge dwellers, for whom the dizzy heights of bottom feeder must seem a giant leap. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:27 AM

""I knew you'd come up wth all that paranoid shit about labour movement and trade unions who were just trying to stop their members being shit on from a great height, and have probably given you every material advantage that you enjoy. i tried to forestall it - but you've come up with it again.If you have no gratitude or sense of history, or respect for the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the striking miners of Scargill's time- in my eyes you're a bit of fool, and have been taken in by the toffs who write the history books.""

Sometimes you're a bit of a twit mate. How young do you think I am?

I'm not reading from history. I WAS THERE!

Having changed direction and taken an apprenticeship to qualify as a carpenter/joiner and wood machinist, it took methree years to get work in that trade. WHY? Fucking trade unions refused to recognise that I was newly qualified, and wouldn't allow me to work, in any of their closed shop domains.

During those three years I worked for Southern Water, cleaning sewers, so don't tell me I owe respect or gratitude to the trade union movement.

I remember the days of the Attlee govrnment when the trade unions dealt fairly with management, and I remember the lies and the intransigent stupidity of your hero Scargill, who led his members by the nose into a strike lasting a year, after which they got exactly what they would have had if they'd ignored him.

Scargill did more to destroy the unions than Thatcher ever could, innocent people died, families were ripped apart, and I should be grateful for that. Dream on laddie!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:46 AM

'the striking miners of Scargill's time'

no mention of Scargill himself. Read more carefully.

Do you really imagine you would have anything like the standard of lving you enjoy wthout the Labour movement in England.

I respect Chuchill's sagacity - the recent series on TV about the influence of John Churchill his ancestor on his tactical thinking in the war, was brilliant. But as my father said, 'people talk about his sacrifices....but the most useless, laziest footsoldier who died in the apalling circumstances that people died in battle, gave more'.

Churchill said after the war that the NHS was unsustainable, unworkable and unrealistic - he wasn't always right. His class believed that and they have believed that throughout history - look at the howls of tory anguish that Shaftsbury had ringing in his ears as he tried to introduce the Ten Hour Bill for children in factories.

How ever bad you think the 1945 govt. was - they were right about some things and had their way about th NHS. Thank God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:47 AM

Big Al

1: Redistribution of wealth? Wealth is earned or inherited - your redistribution is that just another hand-out or is it done the old fashioned way by working for it?

2: If you are fully entitled under law to own what you own and so am I - then it naturally follows on that the likes of the Duke of Westminster is fully entitled to own what he owns - if you wish to "suck your teeth" in envious outrage then more fool you.

In yet another display of complete and utter ignorance you seem to think that:

a: Charles owns Cornwall - he doesn't - He is the Duke of Cornwall

Established in 1337, the duchy was created with the express purpose of providing income to the heir apparent to the throne; thus, it traditionally goes to the eldest son of the reigning monarch. Although the duke owns the income from the estate, he does not own the estate outright and does not have the right to sell capital assets for his own benefit.

In 2010, the duchy generated £17.1 million in income. As the Duke of Cornwall is not a subject of the Queen he is not legally required to pay income tax [18 The National Archives LO 3/467, Duchy of Cornwall – Land Tax and Valuation, 1913, see also My Queen and I, Willie Hamilton, 1975 p. 217]. However, since 1993 Prince Charles has voluntarily agreed to pay income tax at the normal rates (see: Finances of the British Royal Family). Approximately half of this income was spent on public and charitable works.


WOW half spent on public and charitable works eh? what a bastard - More on the tax side of things tax:

"As a crown body, the duchy is exempt from paying corporation tax. Since 1993, the Prince of Wales has voluntarily paid income tax at the normal rates. The Prince paid a voluntary contribution to the treasury of 50% of his Duchy income from the time he became eligible for its full income at the age of 21 in 1969, and paid 25% from his marriage in 1981 until the current arrangement commenced in 1993. Tax is calculated after deducting business expenditure, the biggest source of which is the Prince's staff of about 110 who assist with his performance of official duties, including private secretaries and a valet working in his office at Clarence House and at Highgrove House. Detailed records are kept to determine the split between official and private expenditure."

2: The Queen owns what she owns which amounts to the estates of Sandringham and Balmoral, both bought and paid for by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert - that is right Big Al bought and paid for just as I bought my house - yet you seem to think I should not have that right and that I own my house by some form of theft.

This "black card tax" set you refer to - you mean the likes of comedian Jimmy Carr and other great luminaries of the stage and screen, how do our pop stars and othe so-called celebrities weigh in with regard to tax avoidance schemes - made millions how much tax did John Lennon pay? That great champion of Scottish Independence Shirr Shhawn Connery - took the knighthood and over the course of our working lives I can bet that I have paid more in tax to the UK Government than he has.

Take a good look at the changing face of Great Britain over the last 300 years the ONE single group that has fallen, and fallen mightily, has been the "aristocracy". Still Al don't let facts or the truth get in the way of a "good socialist MYTH", or downright lie.

The contributions of - The Crown Estate - The Duchy of Lancaster - The Duchy of Cornwall - are all a matter of public record and are very, very well scrutinised and audited.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:55 AM

"Churchill said after the war that the NHS was unsustainable, unworkable and unrealistic - he wasn't always right."

Just happened to be right about that though.

Germany - took it's Marshall Aid Money and built the means to create wealth and prosperity then put the tax income and put that to work

Great Britain - took it's Marshall Aid money and ploughed it into all of the Labour Parties sacred cows and let British industry go hang on a "Make Mend And Do" basis - we can no longer afford the NHS, nothing political in that statement it is simply a reality - We can no longer afford our Welfare State because too many people want something for nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:02 AM

but look at all the peoples lives who have been made immeasurably better. Wasn't that worth doing - better than setting up the bastards who made gas for the concentration camps, IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:03 AM

Will ~~ I have much respect for Benn, a man of true principle ~ principles which I happen not to share, but which I can nevertheless recognise as such. The one I despise, going back a socialist generation, I repeat is Cripps; an austere ascetic who confused socialism with his own peculiar variant of puritanism, and destroyed the 1945 Labour Government as a consequence. Attlee couldn't control him, as he imposed it on a nation who, in the previous 6 years, had cheerfully and patriotically suffered privations, seeing their homes and cities flattened, lived in daily anticipation of the telegram to tell them a loved-one was dead, seen the photographs of the industrialised gas-to-death organisations like Auschwitz & Treblinka or starve-to-death ones like Buchenwald & Bergen-Belsen as a reminder of what all that strife & suffering had been endured to avoid ~~ and then, having just succeeded in this monumental effort, at the moment when we had won & thought we might relax and enjoy things just a little bit, along comes Cripps to decide that what we needed was a few [or more] years longer of "austerity" (his own word), because that is what the Hon Sir Stafford, in his self-righteous abrogation of his own heritage, thought was good for people ~~ whether, like Queen Elizabeth I's annual bath, they needed it or not.

And then people are surprised that the one way any Labour campaign became bound to fail was to go to the Country {including the working class} with anything approaching 'socialism' in its manifesto. It wasn't Churchill who destroyed socialism, it was Cripps. It might even have worked ~~ thanks to him we shall never know now: not since he perversely established in the national consciousness its synonymity with his accursed "austerity".

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:17 AM

"we can no longer afford the NHS, nothing political in that statement it is simply a reality"

Yes we can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM

Agreed, Michael - Cripps was a terrible man. A shame indeed for the 1945 Labour government. I believe Atlee to have been a halfway decent PM, but Cripps was a terror and should never have been appointed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 07:34 AM

I agree with you Terry. I suppose we are at a disadvantage with countries who do 'allow' children to work more than 10 hours a day in factories.

I guess it depends on what sort of society you want to live in. Of the glittering opportunities open to most kid when our education system has finished with them (sixty years of education being a political football) , I think i would rather have them in hoodies taking drugs, listening to hip hop music and nicking stuff from JJB than working in a factory.

Also you have to remember England had more disabled people to take care of - germany had done in many of the families producing disabled people - didn't waste gas on them, as I remember they were hanged -even the kids.

Oh yes, we have our faults, if you wish to consider them as such. We are not the perfect economic model.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM

I'm confused?

Does all this talk of Cripps, Benn et al, not to mention Akenaton's fixation with bottom feeders, which given his views on bowling from the pavilion end... mean nobody is interested in the debate any more?

Are the present contributors Th*tcher haters as per the OP or is it a race to be more noble than the other idiots when it comes to ferret down the trousers flat cap socialism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 09:40 AM

good point - i got bored with this topic a long time ago. what if we just ignored that small sect of south-eastern white tossers? i've decided i never moved back over the border, listen to radio scotland and other stations-and don't watch tv. i regard edinburgh as the capital city - it's great -no tories up here and hopefully, soon, amongst many other benefits-no trident. it's a start. next step to follow the example of the falkland islands and choose to be part of a country a long way away with which they have historic links. i lived half my life over the border and it's only 35 miles away - getting those sado-masochistic bunch of weirdos off my back should be a peace of piss.
anyone wanting to wander off down this track -a tory free zone? - it's on another thread-something about moving a wall.

bye - pete


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 11:54 AM

Ah the late unlamented Sir Stifford Crapps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 02:13 PM

Al, it was not the Labour Party, or even the Labour movement that put a stop to child labour and the transportation of such as the Tolpuddle Martyrs.
It was middle class philanthropists and active Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM

I agree with T, that WE, at this point in time, cannot afford the NHS as it stands.

That is not to say that a publically funded NHS is not viable, under a different social/economic system, with a populace which does not buy into "grab what you can consumerism" ...and which does not believe in a mantra of entitlement to a high standard of living, just for being born.

Capitalism has failed in the West.....even the Americans are coming to believe that...and all the alternatives will mean hard times for us and our spoilt children.
Hard times will mean hard measures, the idiocy of much of the rights agenda will have to be abandoned....when children are starving and the bullets start flying, the rights of religious, sexual or racial minorities will be stuck back in the locker.
Survival will be the only game in town.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 05:13 PM

apocolyptic crap. capitalism will stutter along for a while, but democracy and hope will rise again. we will all shuffle about a bit, get cross and then hopefully settle down to a slightly fairer world. eventually, we should all get off arses and - in a long suffering sort of way, gently tell that 1% to fuck off and leave the rest of us to get on loving the good things about each other and loving our planet. not a lot to ask really - you warmongers have had a decent run. now lock the gates on your luxury estates, count your money, beg for forgiveness- and die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:18 PM

apologies - of course that should have read 'fuck off and die' - just thought that what this thread -as with most other things in life these days-was missing is a bit of old hippy peace and love -pete


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 08:18 PM

INMHO

The Queen , and Charlie, and the Duke of Westminster - own nowt. What they have is the stewardship of enormous publcly owned wealth.

Allright if times were normal - but the great corporations have decided to wage economic against us by bulding huge whizzy factories in places like China, supporting countries that use child labour, and slave labour.

To sit on the crown's resources of wealth in times like these is comparable with Victoria's £5 contribution to the Irish famine fund. Totally missing the point.

Anyway you all seem to have made your mind up otherwise and decided that as usual, confronted by a sea of troubles the best thing is to hope that our feet don't too wet, and put the kettle on.

Who knows - you may be right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 04:26 AM

So they should build their factories in a country where, the moment they get near an important deadline, the unions ask for more money, and threaten strike action.
Like BA staff choosing holiday weekends to hold strikes, tube workers, and others, threatening to go on strike during the Olympics, unless they get a bonus, for doing the same job as they do now!
I'm sorry, but that's not negotiation, that's bully boy tactics, and it is one of the many things that have disillusioned me, and many others, about the aims and ethics of trade unionism.
It seems such a good idea most of the time, then they employ the sort of repressive tactics that they moan about the employers using.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 07:10 AM

Look stop worrying about unions. Start producing goods people want, and they will find the money. Supply and demand. That easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 07:13 AM

as Toyota proved - if you can offer good jobs - you can call the shots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

Don - people like you who support the rich against the poor (when you are one yourself) are fools who have swallowed propaganda from the capitalist press.

Mither - THIS government is decreasing the availability of treatment and drugs in the NHS right now.   - oh, as well as planning to cut the benefits that supported the paralympians they pretend to admire.

War on the workers?

"‎'Employers will find it easier and cheaper to fire people under new laws due to be unveiled this week, the new growth minister has said.

Michael Fallon, a key ally of David Cameron, said the new plans would deal with the "burdensome" and "expensive" problem of getting rid of unwanted staff.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 09:48 AM

Richard - people like you who support the poor against the rich (when you are one yourself) are fools who have swallowed propaganda from the left wing press.


It works both ways Richard ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 10:04 AM

Yes John, but anyone who empathises with the rich against the poor, the strong against the vulneable - well.....they're a bit sad. the biggest bullies in the schoolyard always have hangers on - but you can't really respect someone like that.

well obviously some folk can....


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 10:27 AM

""Don - people like you who support the rich against the poor (when you are one yourself) are fools who have swallowed propaganda from the capitalist press.""

Bollocks! I'll stack my intelligence against yours any day.

All you do is stand on the sidelines hurling shit at anybody who dares to disagree with your sneering, ranting, hatred of Tories.

The best way to make a difference and hope to move things in the direction you want them to go, is to get involved and make a pest of yourself from the inside of the group. If only enough of my fellow Tories would get up off their arses and join in, we would change the direction of the party.

Some of you might do well to think on that, but you won't, because "workin' men votes Labour, innit!"

Well mate, New Labour and you can just keep up the chimp act and achieve f**K all.

Maybe I won't make much of a difference, if any, but at least I'm trying. Anyway I certainly won't do any worse than the sideline screamers.

They say "Two Ed's are better than one", but only if they have a brain apiece and some inkling of what to do with it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 10:48 AM

Well Al, I see much of what goes on in this so called class war as pathetic, not empathetic.
I've been there, slept on station benches, friend's floors and sofas. Been made redundant several times, been treated like shit by employers.
All I did was keep on keeping on, and eventually life sorted itself out.
Do I resent it? No I don't, because I'm not a grudge bearer. Did I ask someone else to fight my battles for me? No I didn't.
Self reliance is the name of the game as far as I'm concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM

Every vote for a conservative enables a parasite like Mark Reckless to parrot the plutocrats' lines - I bet he'll be out to support Beecroft by the back door soon now.

Incidentally Don and Jock, there is a name for the rich who do support the poor. Philanthropists.

Jock - I don't know your current situation. Not all are as resilient as you. By toeing the capitalist line of self sufficiency you condemn those less able to misery. But of course capitalists think that is merited.

Don - I hate bullies. I hate bullies who do it with money just as much as those who do it with clubs. Conservatives enable bullies. If ability was all it was about, why did you not, with your ability and diligence, become wealthy? Things went wrong for you and as a human being you deserved state support. Why deny it to others? You have swallowed a line, a line that kowtows to the plutocrats.

The oppression of the poor by the rich has to stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM

Don - I hate bullies. I hate bullies who do it with money just as much as those who do it with clubs.
How about the bullies who used to stand in factory yards encouraging people to vote for strikes in a sort of "we're watching to see who doesn't vote" manner.
Fortunately a thing of the past since the Tories insisted on secret ballots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 12:59 PM

I know its incredibly hard form prople who haven't been there to understand - but most problems that you encounter in life have been met at sometime by somone else. Getting disabled, having a drink or drugs problem, losing your job....


You make some sort of recovery but don't win as many tricks as you could have done.

Years later, you just wish you could elp other people - because deep down you KNOW there were people who weren't as lucky as you were.- some people just get wiped out by adversity. And you can help people with your know how and insight.

The doctor sends you home with your problem and you have to work out what you can cling on to and what you have to let go. You have to grieve for your old life - its gone. Good friends can help you maximise what is left to you - perhaps even like these paralympic heroes find a whole new better life.

Unfortunately you will meet enemies - people who steal from you as much as they can. people who will erode your rights. you won't know about them until you go to the hospital and find that its been built on top of a hill that disabled people can't climb. Then you will understand the meaning of theft - the contract has been given to some shyster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 01:17 PM

"Fortunately a thing of the past since the Tories insisted on secret ballots."
Perhaps one day they will get around to abolishing the whipping system in Parliament and replacing it with the freedom to vote as your concience dictates instead of the bullying and manhandling that prevails at the present time - stranger things have happened at sea!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 12 - 03:48 PM

Nigel - when considering conservative "reforms" you have to understand what they were trying to do. Thatcherite and subsequent "reforms" to trade union law were about one thing only - to stop workers successfully combining, since only by combining with other workers could workers have enough power to negotiate in meaningful terms with capital. The secret ballot is innocuous enough (so long as it is honest) but in union law secret ballots came with other baggage all with one objective: to give power to the bosses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 10:28 AM

Aye Bridge, and of course anybody other than a Tory would meet discussions in the middle ground eh? That's why you reckon one side has the right to class warfare but the other side doesn't?

Zzzz

Snag is, when the working class Heros get into power they seem to act just like the Tories they deride. How very interesting ..

You see, the thing is, Cameron isn't acting like the Tory bastard he is portrayed as. No, he, just like Broon, Bliar, Minor etc is trying to enact social democracy funded through capitalism. The other thing he has in common with previous Prime Ministers is that he has idealists on his back who swallow and believe their fundamentalist crap. Whether that be Tory or Labour. Oh, and he is personally incompetent but that's another matter. We should be grateful otherwise he might have got even more policies through!

The last Prime Minister who was at one with her back bench nutters was?

Any guesses?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Sep 12 - 10:51 AM

""Every vote for a conservative enables a parasite like Mark Reckless to parrot the plutocrats' lines - I bet he'll be out to support Beecroft by the back door soon now.""

So either do something about it, gather a few others who agree with you. and get in his face and let him know who he'll need to convince to keep his job.

That's what I do with my MP, who must be just about sick of hearing from meand several others.

Otherwise go back to whingeing on a music forum and vote for the Incompetence party as usual.

That'll really help..........NOT!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 04:10 AM

Teribus
We can no longer afford our Welfare State because too many people want something for nothing."

In a sense, you're right, but probably not in the way you intended. Housing Benefit takes up a massive chunk of the 'welfare state'. A huge proportion of HB is claimed by people actually in work. Hardly 'something for nothing'.

The problem with HB isn't the claimants - it's not as if they're setting the rents. The problem is BTL landlords high on 'property porn' TV with expectations ramped up by a media's obsession with property prices. The problem is with the current government actively ramping-up HB costs by forcing Housing Associations to ramp up the rents of 'social housing' so they are 80% of 'market value'. The problem is an artificially created dearth of available/cheap housing triggered by 'council housing' sell-offs.

Bring back rent caps and create a massive 'council house' building programme with councils actually building and maintaining the stock rather than private firms and HB and the over-all cost of the 'welfare state' will drop like a stone. Also, like existing (ex) council stock, they'll pay for themselves many times over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 06:56 AM

Council housing is another ball game.
IF, it was right to let people buy their council houses. Then the monies rised should have been hypothecated, and used to build more council houses, and ONLY for that purpose.
Of those council houses remaining, they should be regulated better. Several thoughts occur. Firstly, where those occupying the house earn over a given amount, surely they should be disqualified from being in need of council housing?
The ability to "inherit" a tenancy should be judged by need, and not by being the child of the previous tenant.
When the number of occupants fslls well below the space available, they should be found smaller, suitable, accomodation, leaving the home vacant for a larger family.
Some of these can be achieved by fixed term renewable tenancies.
In the same way as government grants to councils are regulated by population, so also should the requirement on those councils to build houses for rent.
There is a bloke behind me, living alone in a 3 bedroom council house, which was his parents house. Why can he not be rehoused in more suitable accomodation?
The theory of council housing is great, the practice is crap, and we need to start again with better guidelines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 12 Sep 12 - 08:00 AM

John MacKenzie, if council housing is "another ball game", it's a related ball game as HB takes up some a large chunk of welfare spending.

'Right to Buy' was a complete mess: it was an ideological sleight of hand and the execution of it was ludicrous. Thatcher et al was so certain that the proles could really be affluent, 'arrived' potential home owners, then it should have been possible for them to own homes in the first place without out the need for a 'knock down' housing sell-off. This deceit was the first act of the 'middle-class fantasy' play concluded by the availability of 'easy credit'.

The monies raised from the housing sell-off should have gone into more housing but they didn't and the building of 'social housing' and even new 'affordable' housing is becoming a rarity at a time when there's a chronic housing crisis. Even the idea of 'affordable' housing is a joke when so many people in work are eligble for housing benefit because of rent prices (and not just in the 18 bedroom mansions stories loved by the likes of the Daily Mail).

I agree with the 'judge by need' idea but I'm not sure how would be a realistic or moral way to implement this. The earnings argument is similarly difficult as there's an argument this would hinder the kind of 'aspiration' that the Tories love to talk about. However, talk of "earnings" is all a bit moot considering most people lucky enough to have a job these days are seeing wage freezes, pay cuts: a pattern that's going to continue for a good few years yet. All those part-time jobs with zero hour contracts that the Coalition seem to think are 'good news' aren't going to generate bread-winners with high wages. Cut working tax credits and the conditions needed to get them in the first place only exacerbates the problem.

You might (or not) be glad to know that your neighbour might have to move soon if he's of working age (including disabled people). Housing benefits are being cut to begin with, but the double whammy of the 'bedroom tax' is also being introduced. Tenants with a single 'spare' bedroom (doesn't matter the size) will pay an extra 14% of their rent themselves. Tenants like your neighbour with two 'spare' bedrooms will have to find an extra 25%.

I live in a 1960s-vintage block of flats outside Manchester that was passed on to a social landlord in the mid-1990s. I live in the pilot area for universal credit which means I'll have the universal credit, the reduced housing benefit and an extra 14% or my rent to find to contend with all at once. Due to the chronic lack of 1 bedroom social houses places available for exchange (no private landlords in my area take benefit recipients), my landlord has explained that I'll be homeless myself come April as the rents will be more than I can could possibly receive in benefits (even if I didn't have to pay gas/electric/water; the latter being £10 a week alone).


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:48 AM

David Hannan in Daily Telegraph

did our best to contextualise Thatcherism by describing the calamity that had preceded it. It is difficult, these days, to convey the sheer unremitting awfulness of the 1970s: the pessimism, the rancour, double-digit inflation, price controls, incomes policies, power cuts, the three-day-week, the winter of discontent. It felt as if we were finished as a country. Throughout the 1960s and 1970s, we had been outperformed by every European economy. "Britain is a tragedy – it has sunk to borrowing, begging, stealing until North Sea oil comes in," said Henry Kissinger. The Wall Street Journal was blunter: "Goodbye, Great Britain: it was nice knowing you".



Then came the r̩veil national. Inflation fell, strikes stopped, the latent enterprise of a free people was awakened. Having lagged behind for a generation, we outgrew every European country in the 1980s except Spain (which was bouncing back from an even lower place). As revenues flowed in, taxes were cut and debt was repaid, while public spending Рcontrary to almost universal belief Рrose. In the Falklands, Margaret Thatcher showed the world that a great country doesn't retreat forever. And, by ending the wretched policy of one-sided d̩tente that had allowed the Soviets to march into Europe, Korea and Afghanistan, she set in train the events that would free hundreds of millions of people from what, in crude mathematical terms, must be reckoned the most murderous ideology humanity has known.






Then Evan Harris for the Lib Dems and, even more, the undergraduate speakers, attacked her in personal and aggressive terms, blaming her for everything from human rights abuses in China to the recent financial crisis. (Quite an achievement for someone who left office 20 years ago.)



Where does it come from, this inchoate hatred? Anti-Thatcherites tell you that it's because she closed down the old industries. (She didn't, of course: she simply stopped obliging everyone else to support them.) Yet it must surely be obvious by now that nothing would have kept the dockyards and coalmines and steel mills open. A similar process of deindustrialisation has unfolded in every other Western European country, and the only parties that still talk of "reviving our manufacturing base" are Respect, the Scottish Socialists and the BNP.



No, what Lefties (with honourable exceptions) find so hard to forgive is the lady's very success: the fact that she rescued a country that they had dishonoured and impoverished; that she inherited a Britain that was sclerotic, indebted and declining and left it proud, wealthy and free; that she never lost an election to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM

I read this morning that Jack Straw has blamed Margaret Thatcher for the conduct of the police during and after the Hillsborough disaster.
What a sad silly thing to say. Jack Straw transmogrified from left wing student leadr, to a nasty Home Secretary, who seemed more right wing than Ghengis Khan. The man is obviously paranoid.
To sully such a tragedy, and mass cover up by the police, by dragging in Maggie T, is sick!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:05 AM

Nonsense John - she created the climate where evryone she didn't like was a criminal....a wet. And as such you could kill IRA men, trade unionists, slander, ruin political rivals with abuse from scum sheets that were most definitely on her side.

her and tebbit's rhetoric gave carte blanche to every surburban Mussolini to behave like monsters.

Like Keith said it was the times...but how you remember the times is another thing.

Don't agree with a word Keith, but best wishes old man! Come to Nottinghamshire mine villages and see her proud success.( success my arse!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:59 AM

I suppose that's how it is with history.

Somepeople see it one way some people another.

Take this TV series the Tudors. There is Bluff King Hal roistering and decapitating, enjoying the Field of the cloth of gold - staring the Church of England. Lotsa fun.

But other people remember the 72, 00 people executed in his reign, the extravagance, the disease the poverty, the cruelty.

I suppose it depends on where you were when the axe fell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:40 AM

Thatcher dragged herself into the Hillsborough tragedy by advising against publishing the criticisms of the police (quote lifted from the BBC website):

"What do we mean by 'welcoming the broad thrust of the report'? The broad thrust is devastating criticism of the police. Is that for us to welcome? Surely we welcome the thoroughness of the report and its recommendations - M.T."

Bear in mind Thatcher had turned the police into a tool for imposing her will on ordinary people, and this statement betrays her thinking in this matter.

There's another of her great legacies: Turning parts of the police force into paramilitary units. Making sure they are unaccountable for their actions, and are never, ever convicted even in such blindingly obvious cases such as the death of Ian Tomlinson. The force is a closed shop, institutionally corrupt and Thatcher was responsible for allowing this to happen, primarily during the miner's strike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:12 AM

while thatcher may not have been directly involved in the hillsborough tragedy and cover up, maybe you are forgetting the prevailing climate back then. she was explicity responsible for encouraging the idea of a 'them and us' society and derided anyone not of her liking. from 'wets' in her own party to trade unionists, the unemployed, football fans, scots, northerners and particularly scousers could be labelled 'the enemy within' and their interests discounted. the shocking headlines could not have appeared without the tacit encouragment from murdoch and the government of the day.
we have seen (from successive governments) a tolerance of some very dubious activities by the police on many occasions and i really cannot remember any convictions appropriate to the seriousness of some of the offences - the Ian Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes killings being recent examples. nor should we forget Blair Peach.
in all these and other cases the understanding of what actually happened has only been won after a long, hard fight by the families of the victims. understanding though is still a long way from justice.
thatcher was happy to offer support to her friend pinochet - a proven mass murderer - with no sympathy for the victims of his well-documented brutality who were -of course- not 'our' sort of people. unlike pinochet, murdoch, reagan and the rest of her ghastly crew.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM

Don't forget Boris Bloody Stupid Johnson and his open letter of vilification of Liverpudlians.

And don't forget to marvel at anyone who can describe the Korean war as "detente".


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:45 AM

""maybe you are forgetting the prevailing climate back then. she was explicity responsible for encouraging the idea of a 'them and us' society and derided anyone not of her liking.""

Frigging hilarious!   Also arrant bloody nonsense!

Are you trying to say that the Wilson/Callaghan years were a model of unity and harmony, with workers, unions and employers marching arm in arm into a rosy future of prosperity for all.

Don't make me laugh, mate, the late sixties and the whole of the seventies were a constant series of battles between "them" and "us", with the gutless Labour govrnments wringing their hands on the sidelines, while the unions ruled (ruined) British Industry and the Economy.

You don't need a history book if you lived through it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:18 PM

i lived through it and my understanding of what happened is presumably very different from yours. we cannot both be right -and maybe in some cases there is no absolute truth. but sometimes we can look back and -with hindsight- agree that events that were presented to us in a certain way were not telling the whole story. with the efforts of determined people as in the current case, or for example those jailed for the bombings in birmingham and guildford- a bit more truth can be revealed and we all have to reassess our opinions. and then ask why we were lied to and who benefited from those lies and distortions.

no, i wasn't making any comparisons with wilson and callaghan years-that would be another thread. and of course it's always been them and us - it's just that they have won so i am a bit cross. and it was all part of the plan from back then to shock the world into accepting a vicious and anti-democratic plan for the benefit of the owners of global capital. all came from friedman, hayek and them chicago boys, you know - not very nice men. and thatcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MikeL2
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:43 PM

hi

<" Don't forget Boris Bloody Stupid Johnson and his open letter of vilification of Liverpudlians ">

Today on lunchtime TV News Boris apologized but it neither looked like nor sounded like an apology to me.

Cheers

MikeL2


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM

I think we should let Don have the last word. We don't agree with him - but we aren't rejecting him as a human being, like that bastard Thatcher did with so much of the population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:51 PM

Sorry, but I don't know whether it's paranoia, or an inferiority complex that's going on here.
To blame Maggie for Hillsborough, and mean it, is to me the signs of someone losing grasp of reason.
Up until comparatively recently, the notion of a bent copper was something one read in books. The word of a policeman was always believed beofre that of most people, when it came to evidence in a court of law.
Bear that in mind, when you accuse the police of thinking they were untouchable. Most other law abiding people also thought the police were untouchable, and held them in high esteem.
The resentment of trade unionists against the police for upholding the law during strikes, knows no bounds, but remember this, many of those policemen also thought it was wrong that they had to do what the law required, but they had a job to do, a pension to look forward to, and possibly even a tied house to worry about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:13 PM

to say that anyone is blaming thatcher - solely or even directly - for the tragedy at hillsborough is deliberately simplifying the points that i and others are trying to make. i am remembering the climate of the times -it was confrontational and dismissive of sections of our society. she had a part to play in that -in fact it was a crucial element of her appeal to her supporters as the iron lady.
simplify and change the subject if you like but surely by now you must accept that all is not entirely rosy in the story of your heroine, the police, the press and the british establishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:37 PM

Oh she's not my heroine, I just try to be objective. Which is more thtn can be said about many of those posting in the thread.
What I'm saying is,the police thought they were untouchable, long before Maggie came along. They were taken at their word, and when giving evidence, and were believed before those against whom they gave that evidence. Believe it or not, the police were once respected members of society!
I suspect that such things had been going on long before Hillsborough. Just that nobody thought the police would do anything as dishonourable as tell lies to convict the innocent, or falsify their records to cover their arses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:48 PM

agree with you there john - i think we all have bought the line that the police are infected by a few bad apples. i still believed that they are for the most part good people doing a difficult job - despite everything. today's shocking news has blown that apart. that so many people can sustain such awful lies over such a long time is appalling. surely they couldn't have done so without the knowledge of elements of the governments in office. and murdoch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 04:59 PM

How about the bullies who used to stand in factory yards encouraging people to vote for strikes in a sort of "we're watching to see who doesn't vote" manner.

How do you know it was like that, Nige? Were you there? Or are you fondly remembering reports in truthful papers like the Sun and Mail? You are painting a suspiciously tabloid picture here. Is your middle name Kelvin?

Cheers for remembering my good friend Blair Peach, achmelvich. And I have wonderful, romantic memories of Achmelvich youth hostel in the early 70s!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:49 PM

Idyllic spot, and not too far away from where I sit now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 06:31 PM

thanks for them photies, john. i have nearly always been on my own apart from the divers- when on that lovely beach. i can't complain living in the lakes, cockermouth - but i sometimes feel that every day i'm not up in the north west is a day wasted. you live not far from there? mckenzie?- ullapool?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 07:36 PM

Yeah, brilliant pics that bring it all back. I spent a good few days there in '75 and '76 (I know how to pick good summers!) with the lady who was to become my missus at the end of '76. We're still here after 35 years. The warden's name was Colin Jolly and he never had the heart to turn anyone away no matter how crowded - I'll swear people were sleeping on the roof on one or two nights!! I know a secret place not two hundred yards from the hostel, not in your pics, where we... well, you know! I managed Cul Mor, Cul Beag, Canisp and Quinag, but not Stack Polly or Suilven. Yet!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 04:42 AM

I'm in Lairg, which is about 45 miles east of Achmelvich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 07:24 AM

""I suspect that such things had been going on long before Hillsborough. Just that nobody thought the police would do anything as dishonourable as tell lies to convict the innocent, or falsify their records to cover their arses.""

Damn right John.

Achmelvich just mentioned those who were jailed for the bombings. They were later released because their convictions were considered unsafe due to the way the police handled the cases. They were NOT proved innocent and they probably weren't. But the police acted wrongly in strengthening the case against them.

I believe they were jailed in 1975, just a tad before Callaghan lost his job, and released in 1991 while Maggie still held hers.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 09:09 AM

That is a horrible and unjustified slur on the names of innocent people. They were not proven guilty, far from it in fact, so they are innocent. And they really are innocent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: cujimmy
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 09:38 AM

Just guilty of being Irish


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:14 PM

""That is a horrible and unjustified slur on the names of innocent people. They were not proven guilty, far from it in fact, so they are innocent. And they really are innocent.""

Not at all.

The court did not state that they were innocent, but merely that the mechanism of their conviction was unsafe.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:19 PM

al re: don 'we don't agree with him but we don't reject him as a human being' hmmmm.... human just about, humane certainly not. i've seen some nasty stuff on here but that is taking it to a new low.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:00 PM

steve - are you talking about a small(er than the other small bay) sandy bay here? apparently designed (no, i am not wanting to open another thread here) for the purpose of entertainment for 2 only? i have spent some time above that bay watching divers and working out what i think with an accommodating arctic tern. anyone want to take the appeal of scottish beaches to another thread? see you there. fully clothed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:02 PM

You have a good deal of fact-checking to do, Don. Those people had nothing to do with the bombings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 08:27 PM

Achmelvich, we scuttled over the low hill to the south of the hostel to find a private spot overlooking the sea on that side (we were a lot more innocent than I was lasciviously suggesting in that earlier post!) It was a long time ago. As for Arctic terns, we had "fun" with a colony of 'em on the causeway at Tongue. You were taking your life in your hands walking across unless you had a hard hat! I haven't been to northern Scotland since 1977. I'd love to meet you there, clothed preferably as I couldn't possibly do the trip sans wife!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 07:44 AM

"as Toyota proved"

They set up at Burnaston (Derbyshire) and Deeside (North Wales) in 1989 - OK then Big Al tell us all who brought them to Britain and why did they come here instead of anywhere else in the EU?

Same goes for Nissan UK 1984 - Sunderland, Tyne and Wear. Oh and Al what was their ONE condition and why did they make it?

For those interested to know:

Answer 1 - Margaret Thatcher

Answer 2 - Stability

Answer 3 - Nissan INSISTED that their factory be SINGLE UNION


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:14 AM

don't do that teribus! seeing this thread back at the top of the list i assumed the old witch must have died or something. instead it was just a highly selective and in the great scheme of things, irrelevant note about cars. i do wonder about the sanity or the intent of those still willing to defend the conservative/capitalist way of ripping up everything that is hopeful and positive about our country. come on people, get a grip!

...steve - that's a long time away from the north. i was up there in may and i can't wait to get back, as soon as i can get a few quid together. something to do with the wildness, the space and the scarcity of other people (and particularly tories or any hint of sympathy with their way of looking at life) that makes it exciting and refreshing just to be there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:22 AM

Council Houses

"The theory of council housing is great, the practice is crap, and we need to start again with better guidelines." - John MacKenzie

Agree with you 100% John.

"The right to buy" - the thing that Harold Wilson's Government was so vehmently opposed to. How many houses did Harold Wilson own before he entered politics? He owned five by the time he left - but he wouldn't let Jo Bloggs buy a place where he had been paying rent for decades - how remarkably egalitarian of Mr Wilson.

"Bring back rent caps and create a massive 'council house' building programme with councils actually building and maintaining the stock rather than private firms and HB and the over-all cost of the 'welfare state' will drop like a stone. Also, like existing (ex) council stock, they'll pay for themselves many times over." - wyrdolafr

There was only one thing wrong with that though wasn't there. Because of your rent caps over time it meant that the Councils could not afford to maintain the houses and they became slums. It meant that those who did own and maintain their own houses had to shell out and pay more in rates to cover the shortfall. No council houses never paid for themselves many times over, they eneded up as a millstone around the necks of the Councils who had to adminster them and maintain them.

If you do want Council Houses then you must have uncapped, realistic rents and you also need something else to help pay for them - a little thing similar in a way to what was called called Poll Tax - whereby the rent is paid by the number of those earning in a house.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:24 AM

Wrong about everything there ,I'm afraid Terry old bean.

1) The Derbyshire County Council that pulled off the Toyota deal were the ost left wing in history. Their HQ i Matlock was called locally The Kremlin. All of the area was in ruins with Thatchers stupid policies and the council's policies were VERY expensive for rate payers -as they tried to offset the rolling disaster programme of closing manufacturing industry in mining textiles, and engineering. the inducements Derbyshire councils offered to Toyota were in fact opposed by Thatcher, who tried to aid our common market allies in taking the Labour council to court for unfair competition. Don't know about the other places - didn't live there.

2) Stabilit - there wasn't much political stability around in those days with Tebbit and her ladyship shoooting their mouths off in the most inflammatory way. Derby had IRA bombs. the miners strike. the closing of aLL the good textile employers like Viyella.

3) The unios by and large welcomed the Toyota management's arrangements as enlightened compared to the dozy English toffs they had been dealing with before hand.

Face it Terry - you love the Tories and the woman - but its an irrational love. And infatuation. An impossible dream. They will let you watch them play polo. But you're from the wrong side of the trax, and they will always secretly despise you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 10:25 AM

I think if you look over the history of the project, you will find that Thatcher was still ballsing on about scorched earth monetarism, honest money, and that with her little shopping basket, she couldn't buck the market.


Same sort of argument the tories had for opposing the labour Nottingham council giving Torville and Dean a grant to enable them to give up their jobs and compete.

Like the tories great humourist Jim Davies used to say such investments are 'too wisky'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 10:37 AM

'They will let you watch them play polo. But you're from the wrong side of the trax, and they will always secretly despise you'.,..,.
.,,.

A weeny touch of paranoia? Hooccchhh, perish the thought!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM

Missed the point Big Al - you were asked who brought the likes of Toyota and Nissan and a host of others to the UK.

Once they had agreed in principle to locating and setting up in the UK, where they located in the UK was immaterial - who gives a rats ass about which Councils scrambled over one another to land the fish AFTER IT HAD BEEN HOOKED AND PLAYED.

Answers still remain as before:

1. Margaret Thatcher, sure as F''K wasn't the beast of Bolsover or any of the other Liebour wankers

2. Economic and political stability

3. Trade Unions put in their place and reminded of their purpose - i.e. responsibility to their membership as opposed to dictating to elected Governments and holding the country to ransome.

Example of "responsible" Trade Unionism

Germany - 5 trades unions in the whole of the country
Japan - 3 trades unions in the whole of the country
UK - John Browns Shipyard - 38 trades unions all fighting and bickering with each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 01:10 PM

Teribus, on this one you are slightly wrong

Toyota would not have heard of The Beast of Bolsover, as Bolsover is up North and the Toyota plant is down in The Midlands. I come from and at the time was living in The People's Republic of Bolsover (Shirebrook Cooperative) and if was a bloody long way to the other side of Derby. In fact when I was involved in planning the local NHS we had no clinical links to the midlands, due to no transport links either, so fail to see the link to Burnaston. The Council, under its leader David Bookbinder swung the deal and that pissed off Th*tcher and her mates because Toyota weren't so politically obsessive with socialism.

The mining areas have attracted some inward investment to be fair, but having been involved in such matters in Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and South Yorkshire I can say that what there has been has been little given the available workforce and almost all of it despite of rather than because of her, Minor or the Islington Socialist Tories that followed.

The pit I worked at is long gone. She is still with us. A bit like this morning's glory is long gone but my corn on my foot is still here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 02:01 PM

Re. Teribus.

The eejit can't even spell 'ransom' correctly (unless he's making some dubious point about swallows and amazons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 03:31 PM

the fish ad been far from hooked and played. Every other manufacturer was getting the hell out of England, because of the Economic Nuclear Winter brought on by the heroes of monetarism.

We were facing strong opposition from Spain, which had got the Fiesta assembling job and france - who had many financially depressed areas, and was opening the coffers of the EU as a come on.

It was Bookbinders biggest achievement. But like i say, it cost him what was solid Labour constituencies - rates (council tax) rocketed and there was a row about him stopping a primary school from keeping a pig.

it was one good thing he did. No help from the Toriess usual could think of nowt to be done except the Father Ted solution ( Are y'sure derrs nothing t'be said for another tax break for millionaires?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 08:37 PM

...steve - that's a long time away from the north. i was up there in may and i can't wait to get back, as soon as i can get a few quid together. something to do with the wildness, the space and the scarcity of other people (and particularly tories or any hint of sympathy with their way of looking at life) that makes it exciting and refreshing just to be there.

It was like that in the mid-70s too. I managed to have a brilliant holiday on 22 quid a week, including beer. I'll get to work on the missus. I spent a bit of time in Durness too. I got in league with a bloke from Glasgow and we pissed off the locals at the Smoo with our prowess at darts. Think they'll still remember me if I ever go back? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: cujimmy
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 05:28 PM

When Thatcher came to power and throughout her time in govenment - who were her influences did she aspire to


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 07:57 AM

She was a self made woman, who worshipped her creator.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 09:08 AM

Aye Dave, an the beauty o' livin' in a world o' yer ain, is that everybody knows ye there. ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM

Bolsover is just to the east of Chesterfield in Derbyshire. Burnaston where Toyota set up lies just to the south-west of Derby itself. Both in the same county both in the Midlands.

Neither Toyota or Nissan went to either Spain or France they came to the UK perhaps because in the UK the Government was in charge.

My apologies Guest Sturgeon for my appalling spelling


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 05:53 AM

thatcher's influences? she often said her dad and then there was keith joseph and other right wing tories. further afield? friedman, hayek, reagan and pinochet - all those mad, mad and very dangerous chicago boys who aim to destroy democratically elected states and replace their governments with an aggressive global capitalism for the benefit of the 1%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 06:04 AM

So a benevolent, purely local type of capitalism, can sustain the standard of waste and entitlement to which we have become accustomed?

If not, "THe Beast" should surely be informed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 07:50 AM

I come from just outside Bolsover. it ain't in any bloody Midlands. As Derbyshire stretches North of Manchester city centre, is Manchester in The Midlands? Don't confuse constituency boundaries with cultural or real life ones.


The "city" we used to go to for big hospital appointments, football or shopping is Sheffield for starters. Do you think if Th*tcher thought that either North Derbyshire or North Nottinghamshire was anywhere other than oop North she would have wreaked the disgusting havoc she did?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: goatfell
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:31 AM

there will be few tears shed in Scotland as well when she goes


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:59 AM

Today on the morning tv, there were pundits from all three parties all arguing about ways to reflate the economy. Basically put rubber patches on the inner tube the monetarists poured acid on and kicked the shit out of.

There was nowt clever about closing down industry to make the sums work out.

The huge investment made by a Labour council to get Toyota to Derby was roundly condemned by all the tories. Labour paid the price - villification of Bookbinder in the tory press. And the loss of the support of an electorate - in a place where before him, it was said if you put up a donkey for labour it would have won.

The tories were spending money like water on right wing projects like the national Curriculum in schools and fund holding GPs in the health service - both of which have since been acknowledged as complete wastes of public money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:40 AM

Interestingly, The People's Republic of North Derbyshire had 92% GP fund holding.

Something for economics students to ponder, as Surrey was around (I did know the figure, getting old..) 70%. ish

Granted, that included the well heeled Peak District, but also Clay Cross, Shirebrook, Staveley...

Bookbinder did ask for some of his vilification. His witch hunt of Alf Parrish, the chief constable was questionable and his emphasis on the schools budget spending more on a hot meal for the kids was commendable until you see the academic investment paid for it, which does lead to debate on priorities...

Still, I was happy to work with his legacy once he went. Thinking on, back in my firebellied youth, I shared a stage with him, Skinner and Benn. They were speaking, I was singing. Might had been interesting if it were the other way around........

Oh, the subject? Stuffing Th*tcher of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 09:26 AM

one thing all the above has made apparent is that with thatcher you made your choice very early on - an objective one as well as a lot of subjective. for those of us -like me - in our early adulthood she had a big polarising effect and i doubt that many people have crossed the line between loathing and loving her since. also apparent that in general terms the right are finding it very difficult to find any coherent way of supporting the conservative/global capitalist system in its current manifestation. certainly they wont be attracting any folk from the left these days. so we could go on bickering about her and her successors for ever-but our minds (and our gut instincts)were decided years ago, so none of us will be persuaded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 09:55 AM

What system should be puit in its place? New Labour licked the arses of big business, and toadied to Murdoch and co. I really can't see any difference between any of the parties.
Social engineering is all very well, but when it's done on borrowed money, all you do is store up trouble for the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,A lan Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:29 AM

Her legacy is secure. WE are all plebs. Its been decided at cabinet level.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: ollaimh
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 02:36 PM

thatcher was a classic british militarist, british soldiers have brought war to almost every corner of the globe and she was in that tradition. they continue to take every opportunity to punch above their weight by tagging along with the new militarists running america.. she introduced torture as an official practice, waterboarding and the like, and deindustrialized te country. she was at the start of the financialization of the economy, which has exported manufacturing and allowed he financial sector to run all and everything even the money supply, which makes the financial sector control fiscal policy.

this strategy works so long as others around the world use your financial markets and traders, we are now seeing the beginning of the end of that. the consequence is the loos of skills and plants which could start up if they hadn't been gutted/

in addition thatcher ran real economy deficits. she paid for them with oil revenues. now the oil revenues are in decline and the deficits are back in force.

the whole neo con hayak inspired theory was a crock , a smoke screne to hide the destruction of those who oppose the supre rich, unions, and oh yeah, the people!!

its all about keeping control of governemtn out of the hands of the people


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 03:21 PM

She introduced the internal market into the NHS. Soon we will be back to not having one. Watch TV tonight for what that was like. Only the rich will be able to afford medical care. Bitch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 04:11 PM

Is it that show Master of Money. It is all about Hayek? Uggh. No thanks. I am depressed enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 12:34 PM

I watched it last night and am still wondering how far round the bend you would have to be to dream up such a totally unfettered free market and expect it to work. The Road to Serfdom, eh? Someone should have pointed out the amount of damage which Thatcher's vision of a free market did to personal and public liberties.

(Thinks. Please don't remind me of the damage which has been done by governments since. I know, but she was the one who so enthusiastically embraced Hayek and Friedman's ideas on unfettered capitalism.)

Never mind. Next week Stephanie Flanders is going to condense the whole of Marxist theory into a single one hour programme. The extent to which she will manage it was possibly indicated by the trailer.

Sorry Steph. Marx didn't decide that the way to solve the inequities of capitalism was to get rid of it. Marx predicted that capitalism wouldn't be abolished by offering socialism as a rational alternative, but that it would collapse under the weight of its own internal contradictions. In Marx's eyes, such a collapse was inevitable and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it or particularly to accelerate it. The whole point of Marxism is not to "offer" an alternative to capitalism, but to make the workers aware of their role in history, so that when the time comes, they'll be ready.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:04 PM

Interesting, last night's Panorama showed how removing schools from Local Authority control has allowed fraudsters to rip them off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:17 PM

Marx didn't quite know how the implosion would work though. Neither he nor Adam Smith could foresee globalisation and international events echoing around the globe so quickly.

The Internet age isn't just about a cheap film in California leading to immediate riots across the Muslim world or even just about how The Arab Spring could occur. After all, the iron curtain came down without it.

No, the reason why Marx may end up being partially right is electronic trading. Computers monitoring the market making immediate best decisions. Unfortunately, the best decision is also the worst decision for others. Nothing new there except the speed of trading which is potentially catastrophic.

And catastrophic is a more than tenuous link to Th*tcher. I hope she does life a long and happy life. Long enough to see that her free market ideals have led to no more than showing pure capitalism doesn't work any more or any better than the socialist models she so despised.

She had no intention to hit the middle ground. The boring yet only system that stands a chance. I just wish her successors would make a better job of the middle ground they claim to inhabit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,pizel
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 09:38 AM

I understand that up to 80% of Germans live in rented accomodation. This is given as one of the main reasons why that country has weathered the economic meltdown of the past few years in a much better manner than has been the case here.

If any one of you so called house owners wish to find out who owns your property just renegue for two or three months on your payments to the bank/building society and you will soon find out.

My middle son gave an ex. soldier,not previously known to him, a lift to Aberdeen, during the long drive they talked of many subjects, one of them being the miners strike of the 80s. This man told my son to watch any film of the confrontation between the miners and the police, he stated that those, although dressed in police uniform but wielding longer battons than the others, were in fact soldiers and that he to his sorrow had been one of them.
Perhaps a FOI request could find out if there was any truth in this mans assertion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Musket
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 10:18 AM

Interesting. In business, we bought out a company in Germany and I ran it for a while whilst we installed a new management to take it forward.

Speaking to colleagues there, we decided the main differences were that in Germany, you rented your home but bought your factory but in The UK it was the other way around.

That was 20 years ago. I note that in our case it is still the same today.


On your other point, I was a miner in the strike. There were many officers without any way of seeing their number, rank and force, (a legal requirement even back then.) I often wonder if this had happened and at the time decided it was just so no complaint could be brought against a single police officer. If the bloke your son gave a lift to wasn't pulling his leg, an FOI could sort it, assuming you knew what to ask of where. The cynic in me does think though that if so many soldiers had been involved, there would gave been leaks, press investigations and public outcry before now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 11:08 AM

I've always been sceptical about claims of soldiers being used in the miners' strike, although I certainly wouldn't have put it past the beyond the bounds of possibility, Unfortunately, I doubt an FOI request would yield anything. That's partly because of the length of time that's elapsed since, but mainly because whoever might have been responsible would have made a damned good job of covering up their tracks. You can bet your darned tootin' there would be no paperwork trail for future investigators to uncover.

It is, to this day, common practice among police to remove their badges etc when things get rough. Just watch the news the next time there's a riot and see how many badges you can spot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,pizel
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 02:15 PM

Anyone out there with videos of the confrontation between the police and the miners should be able to check if there is any truth in the claim about the length of the police batons.
Do the police use a standard baton or do the various forces have a choice of length?.

I am sure that the mention of loss of pension rights would prevent most soldiers from talking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:15 AM

Guest pizel - Use the Freedom Of Information Act to establish the facts.

If true it must have involved hundreds if not thousands of soldiers. Too many "actors" to maintain secrecy.

The thing you want to enquire about, having looked at the most likely units involved having discovered who was where (Falklands, BAOR & Northern Ireland will tell you which units were serving at home and where they were based - did this "soldier" tell you what Regiment or Corps he served in? Extremely suspect if he did not.), should be their pay records if there are unnaturally excessive amounts being paid in what was called "Local Ration Allowance" (Subsistance Allowance) then you have proof that troops who should have been in Barracks in the UK being billetted and fed off base without any reasonable explanation - such costs cannot be hidden, and they most certainly would have to have been paid.

Other things that can be looked into - transport (no military transport could have been used) - their clothing and equipment would have to have come from somewhere, so who supplied it??, thousands of extra jackets, trousers, batons, riot shields and helmets??

At the time UK armed forces did not have batons of any description in "Aid to Civil Power" we were issued with trenching tool handles roughly 12" to 18" long if that. "Look at the length of the batons" he said?? What about their footwear - their boots??

My gut instinct tells me your "squaddie" was shooting you a line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:09 AM

There were a lot of rumours around. Itwas weird times to live through. Some parts of England will never be the same - some parts were saying, recession...what recession?

One regiment that I did hear mentioned was the Green Howards. Rumours though...


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,pizel
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:28 AM

Not me Teribus, my son.
As this happened long before the days when we had television in this house I have no idea of the numbers involved, it may be as you seem to suggest thousands were deployed at each incident although common sense tells us that the majority of these would be policemen with, if any, a few forces personel deployed to provide a bit of backbone.
Recent revelations about Hillsborough seem to indicate, that for whatever reason, fear, blackmail, shame or just shear stupidity secrets can take a long time to leak from uniformed and disciplined organizations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 06:17 AM

"My gut instinct tells me your "squaddie" was shooting you a line."

I agree. The fact that no ex-squaddie has ever come forward to confirm this, and the fact that no investigative journalist has (to my knowledge anyway) ever produced any proof suggests that it was never anything more than an urban myth.

BTW. Pizel. It's true that if any soldiers had been involved they would have been sworn to secrecy and made to sign the Official Secrets Act. Even so, I don't think that the threat of loss of pension would be an issue here, simply because of the scandal that would have erupted if any of them had spoken.

CTTOI, an ex-soldier taking a story like that to the newspapers would probably make far more money out of it than he could expect to lose by being de-pensioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:33 PM

Maybe so.....the rumours were very persistent though. And come to that there were very obviously covert operations going on . No news has surfaced about that - but that very obviously the case.

If they could bullshit us about WMDs - they could be lying about anything. and covering up their lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM

Of course there are covert operations going on. Are you telling me that the Labour Party has nobody spying on the opposition?


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Subject: RE: BS: Where now Thatcher haters?
From: ollaimh
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 01:48 PM

speaking of covedrt operation s there is the much more disturbing and damnning decades of cover up by all levels of british society of the murders of irish people on bloody sunday. when you have a culture committed to milartism for five hundred years all levels of society get coopted into the cover up mentality or they are destroyed. that of course is why britain is so class bigoted as well--the sociologocal militasrizaytion of civil society as well. if you do not have rank and class in civil sopciety you can't keep torturing, iv=vading others countries and mufdering your percieved enemies without rebellion.

oh yeah thatcher started the removal of the presumption of innocence fron the criminal law in the uk as well.it got worst with blair but thatcher started the elimination of "the golden thread of british justice"

people like that go to hell, usually before they die with alzheimers and other forms of dementia. live demented, die demented


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