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Occupy Folk Music! (USA)

Suffet 26 Nov 11 - 03:21 PM
Brian Peters 26 Nov 11 - 03:26 PM
Suffet 26 Nov 11 - 04:06 PM
Micca 26 Nov 11 - 04:06 PM
RTim 26 Nov 11 - 05:00 PM
Suffet 26 Nov 11 - 05:06 PM
Dave Ruch 26 Nov 11 - 09:52 PM
dick greenhaus 26 Nov 11 - 10:50 PM
Suffet 27 Nov 11 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 Nov 11 - 07:13 AM
Howard Jones 28 Nov 11 - 08:10 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Nov 11 - 08:15 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Nov 11 - 08:41 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Nov 11 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 Nov 11 - 09:24 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM
Howard Jones 28 Nov 11 - 11:31 AM
Vic Smith 28 Nov 11 - 11:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 11 - 11:45 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Nov 11 - 11:59 AM
Suffet 28 Nov 11 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 28 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM
Suffet 28 Nov 11 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 Nov 11 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 Nov 11 - 01:04 PM
fretless 28 Nov 11 - 01:42 PM
Mavis Enderby 28 Nov 11 - 01:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 11 - 02:08 PM
dick greenhaus 28 Nov 11 - 02:16 PM
Suffet 28 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 28 Nov 11 - 02:43 PM
dick greenhaus 28 Nov 11 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Bob Mould 28 Nov 11 - 02:56 PM
Suffet 28 Nov 11 - 03:10 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Nov 11 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Jon 28 Nov 11 - 03:23 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Nov 11 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Jon 28 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM
Richard Bridge 28 Nov 11 - 04:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 11 - 05:42 PM
Jeri 28 Nov 11 - 06:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 11 - 06:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 11 - 06:16 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Nov 11 - 06:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 11 - 06:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 28 Nov 11 - 06:59 PM
Jeri 28 Nov 11 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,Jon 28 Nov 11 - 07:20 PM
dick greenhaus 28 Nov 11 - 08:23 PM
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Subject: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:21 PM

Occupy Folk Music!

1% of the folkies control nearly all of what is heard in folk music clubs and societies. It is time to stand up to the dreaded Folk Police.

Open the doors and the floors to those who bring new life to old songs, and to those who create new songs of their own.

Let's make folk music dangerous once again.

We are the 99%.

Click here to visit us on Facebook.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 03:26 PM

Who are the 1%?


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:06 PM

Brian,

While the statement "1% of the folkies control nearly all of what is heard in folk music clubs and societies" may be rhetorical and the percentage may not be precise, the questions of access, openness, and diversity are very real concerns. So whether it is 1%, 2%, or 5%, it refers to a disproportionately small number of people who use their positions as program directors, bookers, society officers, etc., to limit the range of music that is heard based upon their own personal tastes.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Micca
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 04:06 PM

Steve, In many ways and for many years Folk music has Occupied me!!


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: RTim
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:00 PM

I agree with Micca!!

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 05:06 PM

Micca,

I know just what you mean. Touchι!

Anne Price and I will be back in the UK this coming May, along with our respective spouses, and I hope we get a chance to see you again. This time we will be on a very tight schedule, just a fortnight and a day in country, and eight of those days will be spent in Cornwall or else traveling there and back. Our only featured guest performance in London proper will be at Islington Folk Club on Thursday, May 16th. Perhaps you can stop by?

We haven't even asked Liz the Squeak to arrange a pub sing this time around, although I guess that is still possible if I can convince Anne and her hubby to spend one more day in London and one less in Cornwall. That will prove to be hard to sell. Let's see what develops.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 09:52 PM

Steve,

In my experience, for what that's worth, program directors/bookers as a whole seem to spend a great deal of time thinking about what kinds of artists their audiences will like, even if that means selecting some that are not to their personal tastes. What have you been seeing?


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 10:50 PM

Well, you could always pitch some tents at the concert site, and dtart beating drums.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 27 Nov 11 - 11:30 AM

Dave,

In some instances that's true, but not in all cases. There are other times when program directors say things like "Our members would never come to hear [such and such]" when they have no basis for making such presumptions. For example, I once played a cut from the Bruce Springsteen Seeger Sessions CD for the program director of a folk club without saying who it was. The PD's reaction after only a few seconds was "Yuck. Take it off." Of course, if that club could have miraculously booked Springsteen, its members would have come in droves.

I admit that is an extreme example, so here are four more common ones:

• Not considering young, up-and-coming performers until they have made it big -- and then claiming that those same performers have become too expensive. I actually saw this happen when the Carolina Chocolate Drops first appeared. Then after the CCD played Lincoln Center, I heard one member of a program committee complain that they were rather ordinary, and that there wouldn't be so much fuss if they weren't black!

• Not considering performers whose music is of certain ethnic genres. For example, I have seen a traditional folk club which routinely presents international music (e.g. French, Scandinavian, Balkan) dismiss out of hand suggestions that they present traditional Latin American music (e.g. Puerto Rican bomba y plena, Mexican corrido, Brazilain fado). The reasons? "They have their own clubs." "Our members don't like that stuff." "There's too much of that crap on the radio."

• Taking such a very narrow view of what is folk music, that that a club cuts itself off from anything new and exciting. If you mention Brother Sun, Uncle Earl, or Gathering Time to these program directors, they have no idea whom you are talking about.

• Saying they are not interested in singer-songwriters, unless it is singer-songwriters they personally approve of! These are the people who tell you that their club is strictly for traditional folk music, but then present Bill Staines. "Well," they explain, "he writes in the tradition." Oh really? What exactly does "writing in the tradition" mean? Most of the time I believe it is simply another way of saying, "I really like the stuff he or she writes."

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 07:13 AM

Suffet. I'm assuming that you have taken the steps to get permission to use/modify the Folk Against Fascism logo? ......No??....Didn't think so. I'd remove it pronto, If I were you.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:10 AM

Any club which doesn't take account of the tastes of its audience won't last long. You can't afford to be self-indulgent when you're running a folk-club, if you want it to stay in business.

As for Springsteen... a folk club that managed to put him on would no doubt be packed out, but I suspect many of its regular audience would stay away in droves.

If you don't like what the folk clubs are providing, then why not start your own?


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:15 AM

This is complete rubbish.

Put your money where your mouth is and fourwall it.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:41 AM

Steve - you are a visionary and man after my own heart. go for it!


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:53 AM

Oh, I admire his political stance, and I like the continuity from "the protest song" - but whining because he doesn't get booked is just juvenile.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 09:24 AM

Speaking as someone who hasn't any bookings in my diary for the next couple of years, I certainly wouldn't complain about people whose diaries are full. Maybe It's because they are talented and popular? Maybe the OP and one other should look in the mirror sometimes. It might all become clear if they did.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM

Steve, these people have got to have their shins kicked black and blue - not for any advantage to you or me.

Just to stop them buggering up another generations lives with thinly veiled self interest masquerading as an artform.

that's what Ralphie and richard don't get. Too late for me, but how I hate to see them getting away with another era of total bullshit and mediocrity - usually with their kids.

'In the tradition' of total bullshit. the utter shallowness and intellectually threadbare nature of that bloody tradition!

Theres creativity, and there's crap. End of....


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:31 AM

I'm sure that there are plenty of clubs which are guilty of the practices the OP complains of. But is there really a cabal preventing anyone else from filling the gap by starting clubs which do what he asks? If not, then his argument is nonsense.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Vic Smith
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:44 AM

There have been some very silly, badly thought out opening posts on Mudcat threads - but the one that starts this thread must surely be a contender for the all-time silliest.

Please fill us in with details of where and how you are going to stage your protests and just how you are going to defy health & safety regulations to make folk music dangerous; I really am in need of a good laugh.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:45 AM

I think you have to understand that this is a distinct USA viewpoint. It has been disproved over and over that any such thing happens in the UK.

The only UK minority that have any voice here on mudcat are a minority of two who will not believe that folk club organiners here do everything in their power to encourage new talent, book anyone and, basicaly, run the clubs on a very free reign. I find it very likely that this happens in the USA but, I cannot argue because all the club organisers I know are UK based.

I would hope that some US organisers will do whatever they can to shed themselves of the image that Steve is creating of them. Just as we in the UK have had to correct the lies spread about us.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 11:59 AM

Complete Bollocks, Al.

You are a great writer and entertainer and I wish you every luck, but there is no 1% stopping folk clubs from booking you and you probably get paid more in working men's clubs (which is where, sadly, the great Emile Ford finished up, with backing tapes) - or pub gigs (which is where, sadly, Chicory Tip finished up, with backing tapes) - or doing marketing promo (which, sadly, is where the little one from "It ain't 'arf 'ot mum" finished up, with backing tapes).

I do however take offence if you are calling my daughter's singing "total bullshit and mediocrity". It would be a flattering description of mine, but she's all right.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:10 PM

Greetings:

In response to some of the issues that have arisen, let me state that this is essentially an American discussion, which is why I called it "Occupy Folk Music! (USA)." It has now become clear me that the situation on one side of the Atlantic is different from on the other side. Let us all keep that in mind.

Second, let me point out again that I am using the term "1%" in a purely rhetorical sense, and whether it applies to 1%, 2%, or 10% doesn't really matter. It certainly does not apply to all the people who do the booking and programming for folk clubs. However, at least in the USA, we do have a problem of a small number of folkies who make others feel unwelcome. I have given several examples, and I am sure others can provide some as well. The purpose of the OFM community page on Facebook is to provide a discussion forum for people interested in making the folk community as open, diverse, vibrant, and welcoming as possible. All points of view are welcome, unless they are completely off-topic or involve personal attacks.

As far as the logo goes, I haven't heard any complaint from FAF, and I haven't hidden it from them. In fact I linked the OFM page to FAF on the first day. However, if it will make people happier, I will change the logo because it is not the issue, anymore at Zuccotti Park is the issue in Occupy Wall Street.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:18 PM

which, sadly, is where the little one from "It ain't 'arf 'ot mum" finished up, with backing tapes

Last I saw him he was running a zoo on a roundabout in Royston Vasey, though reports also have him busking in Portsmouth (or somewhere).


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 12:23 PM

Note: I just changed the OFM logo. Please click here to see what the new one looks like.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 01:01 PM

Suffet. Thanks for changing your logo. It was really annoying for people here in the UK.
I personally disagree with your posture that 1% of organisers control everything folkie...Maybe that'd true in the US (Tough for you)
It certainly isn't true here in the UK.
There are hundreds of organisers, both on a local and national level here in the UK.
Mostly hard working, normally hard working. The best artists always rise to the top.
I'm not one of them, but....Hey! Does it matter?
(Locate shoulder.......Remove chip!)


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 01:04 PM

Woops ! That should have said...
"Mostly hard working, Mostly unpaid"
Edit!


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: fretless
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 01:42 PM

It's been nearly a generation since I was responsible for bookings at folk music clubs in the US. In one instance it was a volunteer gig; the other got me a percentage of the gate altholugh that amount wasn't ever sufficient to make the money the sole driver in by booking decisions. The choice of which acts to book was predicated on a mix of what the audience liked, what I liked, and what was available. I didn't make the bookings in consultation with any 1% detatchment of Folk Police, although for the volunteer post I ostensibly worked with a committee that helped make the decisions. I had friends who ran clubs in other US cities, but we almost never discussed booking practices, nor did we coordinate on scheduing. If anyone had described us as an elite class of musical overlords or Folk Police, we would have found the assertion laughable. Perhaps things have changed, but the "evidence" I'm seeing here isn't sufficient to convince me it has.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 01:58 PM

the little one from "It ain't 'arf 'ot mum"

Bit of respect please: Don Estelle


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 02:08 PM

Steve, thanks for the explanation but you stated quite categoricaly in your opening post -

1% of the folkies control nearly all of what is heard in folk music clubs and societies. It is time to stand up to the dreaded Folk Police.

Now you are telling us that this is not the case. I understand that it is probably a simple case of tabloid-esque hyperbole but hopefuly, as a resonable person, you will fully understand why, in the presense of such extremes, people will rail against you. We have a regular poster on here who is prone to such exaguration over and over again. The last thing we need is another!

Now, the percentage has changed and, if I read It certainly does not apply to all the people who do the booking and programming for folk clubs. However, at least in the USA, we do have a problem of a small number of folkies who make others feel unwelcome. correctly you are now saying it is not the people who run the clubs either.

From 1% of people who control folk music we now seem to be saying there is an unkown number of people who attend folk clubs who make people feel unwelcome. That I would certainly accept. But I doubt if the percentage is any higher than those in any community who are generaly unpleasant!

I am not nitpicking or being pedantic here - Your standppoint does seem to have drasticaly changed over the course of a few posts - for the better I would say!

Now, if I am correct, I will suggest what I did on the group page on FB - How about making room for the very curmudgeons who do put a damper on things? Maybe they feel isolated? Maybe they really do enjoy folk 'as it was'. There is room for them - after all they are a tiny percentage. Let them have a bit of fun too :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 02:16 PM

Attendees vote with their feet


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM

Ralphie,

I am not talking just about the organizers (program directors, bookers, whatever), but about all the Big Boys and Big Girls of Folk Music who seem to go out of their way to make people feel unwelcome. I hope it is only 1%, but I suspect that it is even more. I also suspect tat their behavior is not intentional, but rather just part of their personalities. And yes, I admit that most of them are both hardworking and unpaid, but that does not excuse them.

Here are several actual examples, all from the USA, that I have either seen myself or have first hand knowledge from the people to whom it has happened.

• A young woman just out of college goes to a weekend retreat sponsored by an established folk club. When no one else is making any music, she takes out a penny whistle and starts to play Soldier's Joy. A long-time officer of the club immediately tells her to stop because she is playing the tune in thew wrong key, G instead of D. What a way to make a newcomer feel welcome!

• At a different weekend retreat, during an open jam, a singer-guitarist starts to play Hesitation Blues in a major key. One of the leaders with a bigger guitar and louder voice feels he is doing it wrong, and proceeds to drown him out by playing the same song in a minor key.

• At yet a different weekend retreat, a banjo player starts to take a seat in the inner circle of an open jam. He is told he cannot sit there because "that seat is reserved for good musicians" and he is instructed to sit in the outer circle.

• At a club sponsored pub sing, a woman from the neighborhood who is not a club member comes with a double bowed psaltry and plays a couple of simple tunes the best she knows how. And what does the organizer say? "She should learn her tunes better." The woman got not even a thank you, let alone a comment on what an unusual and fascinating instrument she brought.

• At a folk society sponsored forum on folk music held in an urban high school with many students in attendance, a speaker talks about how much of the topical and protest music today comes out of the hip-hop genre. The next speaker, a well known folk musician, follows up by saying "You know what I call rap music? I call it crap music." That will surely win over the young ones, won't it?

• At another event held in a high school, in a workshop on using music for community outreach, a leader in the folk music community makes a joke about always pronouncing "New Age" so it rhymes with "sewage."

• After a mostly traditional folk club presents Joe Jencks, a very accomplished singer-songwriter, a long-time officer of the clubs says, "I would sooner shut the club down than have that kind of music." By the way, no one in the audience complains about Jencks or his music.

• A person comes to a folk club for the first time, and mentions that she loves folk music. When asked what kind, she replies, "Oh, stuff like Nanci Griffith, Kate Wolf, and Lauro Nyro." A club officer then tells her, "That's not folk music." I guess the only thing worse would have been if she said she likes Peter, Paul, and Mary or the Kingston Trio.

• A woman who has never previously heard Jack Langstaff goes to a talk he is giving. Afterwards she approaches the moderator and asks a few very basic questions. Instead of answering her, the moderator brushes her off saying in a sarcastic tone, "You mean to tell me you don't know who Jack Langstaff is?" (Jack, by the way, is a perfect gentleman and he later answers the woman's questions.)

I hope that behavior like this does not occur in the UK. It is bad enough that it happens in one country.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM

Steve - All the examples above are examples of pratts. They occur anywhere and everywhere. For every example you give of this kind of behaviour I could personaly quote ten in the opposite vein. I suspect most people who regulary attend, run and support folk clubs can. I will not though - What is the point if your mind is made up? If folk music is so bad - Do something else. Start your own movement. Ban the pratts and idiots. You could even attract some of your own I'm sure (How about the peron who goes to a new folk music club and is told they cannot sing unaccopmpanied because that is not how Dylan does it? :-) ) If folk music is indeed so full of plonkers then it will die a death eventualy. It hasn't yet!

Oh - And behaviour like that occurs everywhere. In Folk Clubs. At open Mic nights. Jazz clubs. Football matches. Classical concerts. Wine appreciation societies. You name it. They do it. Peopel who think they can run things act like that. Peopel who realy do run things don't.

Hope that helps.

DtG


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 02:43 PM

Big Al. I haven't heard your work...(and you probably haven't heard mine....No Matter,)
If you get 2 gigs in 2012, then you will have twice my bookings! Hope you enjoy them. Sadly I'm busy on both nights. My loss.
Back to business.
Glad that the OP has changed their logo. Wish them luck in their campign, but it has nothing to do with us over here in the UK.
It's all "Tickety Boo" over here!


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 02:43 PM

It's not just the right, but the responsibility of a program director to set standards and choose performers. If audiences disagree, they can congregate elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Bob Mould
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 02:56 PM

I'm afraid Steve it does happen here, too. Here are some true examples:

• At a folk music retreat someone didn't like one of my songs.

• At yet another folk music retreat someone didn't like one of my songs.

• At a mostly traditional folk club someone said to me "You're songs aren't even good enough for folk - perhaps you should try calling it jazz?"

• 16 record companies turned down a demo by me because it was too futuristic and far-out for them. I realised I was getting nowhere with it so I decided to go back to my roots and become a folk singer (I'd grown up next door to a guy who once saw a banjo hung up in a bar, so it's in my blood, man). I ditched my electric and got an acoustic and got really angry as no-one liked my songs there either so I decided that I would occupy Folk Music and that would teach them.

• A man walked into a bar and said ooof - It was an iron bar.

I can't believe these people had the temerity to call music Folk Music before we did and then be annoyed when we came in and shat in their swimming pools. Don't we understand that I AM THE NEW JEAN RITCHIE? Just wait until they hear this song about my belly button fluff.

--- Bob


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Suffet
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:10 PM

DtG,

You wrote: People who think they can run things act like that. People who realy do run things don't. [Note I corrected the misspelling of the word People.]

If that were the case, there would be no issue. Unfortunately, each of the examples I cited involved behavior by an club officer, organizer, panel moderator, or leader in the folk community. The "crap music" comment, for example, came from a highly respected and well known folk musician and club officer.

You also wrote: For every example you give of this kind of behaviour I could personaly quote ten in the opposite vein. I completely agree, and that is my point. We are talking about a small minority, whether it is 1% or 10%. But at least here in the USA, some within that minority hold positions of power and influence within the folk music community. I am happy to hear that is seldom, if ever, the situation in the UK.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:13 PM

I think it is creditable that Suffet has changed his logo.

I only know one person who would say that something is in the wrong key - or overplay a different version. She is a berk.

The "folk music" statement is accurate, but what the organiser should have done is explained. Or maybe start by saying "Oh, yes, we have country too".

The rest would be so rare as to be negligible in the UK.

I am very surprised that they happen in the USA.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 03:23 PM

I only know one person who would say that something is in the wrong key

I might and I know several others who might pass comment if it happened in a session where people are there to play together and tunes have established keys.

I'd guess with Soldiers Joy in G instead of D most people would play along and the comment to be something like "we usually play it in D" after the tune had finished.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 04:32 PM

Sometimes its good to do stuff in new keys.

I remeber asking Alex Campbell onetime about a version of railroad Bill he'd recorded. Turned ot Dave Laibman had done the guitar accompaniment for Alex.

Instead of the traditional key of C. Laibman had done it in A.   So when the E change came, it went to Csharp7 chord. That open string (the first) is just exquisite. Try it.

You see that's the trouble. That stuff isn't 'in the tradition'. just jigs and reels til your balls drop off with boredom.

I don't know about Occupy Folk Music. We could do with a Campaign for Real Folk Music.

Its okay but the reason Folk Music has this horrid image is that major recording contracts are going to people who couldn't string two minutes of memorable music together to save their lives, because of who they are, and who they're related to and if they're 'in' with the toffs at the Beeb.

Frankly I think its as bad as it can get in England. Every bugger who is any good works abroad. leaving us with what we are left with....

if you can accompany Soldiers joy in only one key - I'd shut up about it. What the hell are you doing inflicting yourself on the public ear.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM

??????????????????


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 04:43 PM

I think there are some excellent musicians working in England doing almost wholly or at least mainly folk.

The whole of Waterson-Carthy
The various Coppers.
Nic Jones is to some extent back
John Kirkpatrick
Martin Simpson
Jon Loomes
June Tabor
Karine Polwarts
Several threepenny bit players whose names escape me - not my thing but one's jaw drops to hear them


I'm sure I could go on. But it's not necessary.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 05:42 PM

club officer, organizer, panel moderator, or leader in the folk community.

Of those only the club organiser has any influence on what the audience sees. Of the others - A panel moderator only has influence on that panel. A club officer sounds like someone who was given a job to shut them up and a leader in the folk community will not stay as leader long if he or she annoys people.

As to Al's comment about anyone that is any good is working abroad. Well, If that is his view of folk clubs and the excelent acts that they present it is little wonder that some peopel may be reluctant to book him. Sorry Al, but I can imagine the conversation.

"Hello, club organiser. Big Al Here."

"Hello Big Al, would you like a gig?"

"Well, I would, but you only ever book crap acts. Are you sure you are ready for anyone as good as me?"

"Click. Brrrrrrrrrrr"

"Er, hello? Hello?"

:D tG


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 06:05 PM

Steve, isn't it nice how people in the UK are all flocking to "Occupy Folk Music (USA)? I think they could get a thread for the UK movement, but ours is so wonderful. Come to think about it, we have more similarities than differences, and most of those differences don't matter to the music.

As for 1%ers controlling things... I listen to WUMB, which is better than nothing, but... there I only one show featuring traditional music, and the other shows seem to play the "folk hits". Or, what the programming manager thinks is groovy enough to add to the formulary, and it doesn't seem many new CDs are added. What happens is that you hear the same cuts several times and other folks don't have a chance. It's modeled on top 20 stations. We have shows that are more local to me and feature a wider variety. I think they likely play recordings from their own collections. Luckily, I don't buy records ONLY because someone shoves them in my face.

As for festivals, they can only book less than 1%, but they get more next year and the year after. Folk music is folk music because the 99% sing it, play it, occasionally write it*. What happens on the radio or at festivals or concerts can promote music, ignore it, delight us or piss us off. In the end, it's ours.

We ALREADY occupy folk music. We just maybe have to look around at where we are sometimes, dust the cobwebs out or just knock them off the walls with a great roaring chorus.

* I know what you're thinkin' -- STOP IT. There isn't one traditional song of any stripe alive in the world today that wasn't written by somebody.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 06:14 PM

I think they could get a thread for the UK movement, but ours is so wonderful.

There was one, Jeri - Occupy English Folk Music! But when it was discovered that the whole premise was false and all the allegations were groundless it died the death it deserved. Hopefuly this one will do the same.

It just needs some decent and passionate club and festival organisers from the US, of which I am sure there are hudreds, to refute the premise of this one too.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 06:16 PM

and BTW - Some folk songs were never written. They developed a mind of their own and went their own sweet way :-)


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 06:35 PM

look .......


Mozart, Bix beiderbeck, Django Rheinhardt,

all of 'em got short shrift from the contemporary music scene. le plus ca change....
I bet they played Soldiers Joy in the wrong key for it to be 'in the tradition'.

Do you never suspect 'the tradition' of being a huge conglomerate of complete bumholes?

Surely, in quiet moments, the thought has crossed the mind of us all.

I applaud your bravery steve Suffet, but I suspect you are completely shafted from first base. For every folk legend, theres about about ten thousand sycophants queuing up to crawl up his or her bum.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 06:42 PM

For every folk legend, theres about about ten thousand wannabees who are just not good enough?

Not trying to be offensive Al - I suspect I Just don't understand the issue. Is everyone who doesn't like your music a bum crawling sycophant? Is it corporate bumholes or folk club organisers who will not keep you in a style to which you would like to become accustomed?

There is certainly one thing that Mozart, Beiderbeck and Rheinhardt have in common. They are all dead and get even fewer booking than me!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 06:59 PM

good enough for what......

'Is everyone who doesn't like your music a bum crawling sycophant?'

well if the cap fits. I think you're probably right.

Cheers mate!

if you really are allright. Get angry! Its the only language these over privileged bums understand. It will inspire you to try harder!

did you never get rejected by a woman you fell in love with. Did you decide meekly - oh well I'm not good enough for that wonderful lady.

No - you go out gett pissed, act outrageously, wake up, regret it and say to yourself - bollocks to the bugger! And if you didn't fall in love with folk music - you didn't understand the metaphor.

I mean seriously - do you let these wankers with their pathetic 1954 book of rules, decide what you are going to do with YOUR life! No you bloody don't. You get up and make folk music.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 07:07 PM

Don't expect OTHER PEOPLE to get things done. It's expecting those in the same roles, in the same places, to be kinder one percenters. All I'm saying is that there are no saviors here. MAKE the music you like, go out and find it, and don't expect anyone to hand it to you on a silver platter.

Of course, I think it's quite likely what Steve had in mind.


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 07:20 PM

I bet they played Soldiers Joy in the wrong key for it to be 'in the tradition'.

What are you going on about?


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Subject: RE: Occupy Folk Music! (USA)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Nov 11 - 08:23 PM

Oh, go and occupy Blues or jazz or opera, for Chrissakes. Makes about as much sense.


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