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The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band

JHW 18 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM
Noreen 17 Apr 14 - 01:01 PM
Jack Campin 17 Apr 14 - 11:47 AM
Mr Red 17 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM
Noreen 16 Apr 14 - 08:50 PM
Mr Red 16 Apr 14 - 09:44 AM
Dave Hanson 16 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM
Mr Red 16 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM
Howard Jones 16 Apr 14 - 08:17 AM
Manitas_at_home 15 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM
GUEST 15 Apr 14 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Jabez Clegg 15 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM
The Sandman 15 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM
Dave Hanson 15 Apr 14 - 05:54 AM
GUEST 15 Apr 14 - 04:57 AM
treewind 14 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 06:10 PM
Mo the caller 14 Apr 14 - 05:57 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM
Howard Jones 14 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM
GUEST 14 Apr 14 - 10:17 AM
treewind 14 Apr 14 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Peter 14 Apr 14 - 09:33 AM
Mr Red 14 Apr 14 - 07:06 AM
Mr Red 14 Apr 14 - 07:01 AM
IanC 14 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Andy Growly 14 Apr 14 - 04:05 AM
Noreen 06 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM
Dave Hanson 06 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,rudog 06 Mar 13 - 08:38 AM
Silas 19 Dec 11 - 11:32 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM
Howard Jones 19 Dec 11 - 10:21 AM
Silas 19 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM
Darowyn 19 Dec 11 - 04:42 AM
Howard Jones 19 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM
GUEST 19 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM
Les from Hull 22 Nov 11 - 02:22 PM
Mr Happy 22 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM
Howard Jones 22 Nov 11 - 08:34 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Nov 11 - 12:00 PM
Peter C 17 Nov 11 - 11:52 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Nov 11 - 06:39 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Nov 11 - 02:49 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Nov 11 - 03:04 PM
BTNG 01 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM
greg stephens 01 Nov 11 - 02:12 PM
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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: JHW
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

Whitbread (remember them?) did Trophy real ale all over the country but it was a different beer brewed by their nearest brewery, depending where you were. Greenall Whitley did something similar.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:01 PM

Mr Red, sorry, was that a reply to me? Are you saying Kidlington has a Fleadh? I'd be interested to hear more about it.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:47 AM

The standard modern spelling is "Kayleigh".


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

tell that to the Irish diaspora in - say - Kidlington eg. More display dancing that ceili but again tell that to those there.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:50 PM

Dave H: it's actually spelled "Ceili House"
RTE Radio 1 Ceili House
in line with the usual Irish spelling.

Mr Red, "Fleadh" in recent times refers to a music festival, mostly music and singing often with an element of competition, usually taking place over several days, rather than an evening.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:44 AM

FWIW language is for communicating concepts and if people understand it it is the right word. the word police have no jurisdiction with teenagers ! Neither the marketing fraternity. & Don't even mention estate agents!

Now which meaning and era do you want for "hot" or "cool"? Or:
gay - heterosexually promiscuous, happy & outgoing, or homosexual? Pick your era (give or take 100 years).

Language isn't static, the French know that (in actualité).


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Ceilidh is a word well used in Ireland, there is a programme on RTE Radio one every Saturday night called Ceilidh House, presented by banjo wizard Keiran Hanrahan, that's good enough for me.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

actually the Irish diaspora prefer ceili even for Irish Set dancing, as well as the "Saturday evening dance". And sure, don't they call them Fleadh as well? an evening of artistic merriment of many kinds.

An Irish ex-girlfriend I had been coaxing to go to a ceilidh, and she (protestant NI) had been saying "what is this ceilidh you talk of?" When we got there she said "sure it is just like a Saturday evening dance!"

As I said on EC - if I think I have been taken for an idiot I usually say "NEXT!"


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:17 AM

Dick, 'ceilidh' is the Scottish Gaelic spelling. Whenever I've seen the word in an Irish context it's been spelled 'ceili'. However you live there so you will know better than I whether the 'dh' spelling is used there too.

In both cases, the modern usage within folk music is different from the original usage.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM

It may not be the modern usage in England but I'd be inclined to believe Dick on this as regards the other parts of these islands as he is resident in Ireland and gets about a bit.

There is an e-ceilidh internet group for discussions of English ceilidh dance but I doubt they would claim there is only one meaning of the word - there's a reason they add the 'e'.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:15 PM

"modern usage, a céilidh or ceilidh /ˈkeɪli/ is a traditional Gaelic social gathering, which usually involves playing Gaelic folk music and dancing"

That is defintely not the MODERN usage. But then a fictional Czech character wouldn't be aware of that.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Jabez Clegg
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM

I know of a few musicians that have been involved in the Ship Band over the years and they have all been of excellent players and I have no doubt that the ceilidhs they put on are of a good standard.

Their online marketing is a bit cheeky (in so far as you could get the impression you were supporting a local band) but how many people booking them would actually care?

To call them a fraud is certainly unfair. Anyone that booked them would get what they paid for.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:07 AM

"The Board Minutes they started publishing suddenly stopped as a result"

It's amazing how someone with internet access can write such bollocks.

A quick google reveals that EFDSS board minutes are freely available up to Nov 2013. http://www.efdss.org/efdss-about-us/governing-board

Since the meetings are quarterly the latest meeting has probably only recently happened, so the minutes are probably not ready for web publication.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM

Ceilidh is a gaelic word
modern usage, a céilidh or ceilidh /ˈkeɪli/ is a traditional Gaelic social gathering, which usually involves playing Gaelic folk music and dancing. It originated from Ireland and Scotland, but is now common throughout the Irish and Scottish diasporas.
Howard Jones please note, it is irish and scottish.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:54 AM

They don't even exist in Yorkshire.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:57 AM

Hate to say so, but they have failed to get the Heritage funding they were counting on: those funds were specifically for the projects in question. The Board Minutes they started publishing suddenly stopped as a result, December 2012's were not happy reading. A year ago they were begging the Choir for £50 000 to replace the curtains in Kennedy Hall, for example. That's desperate, in my book.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: treewind
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM

"funding the EFDSS, which is something they desperately need."

The EFDSS have done remarkably well in the last 10 years at getting Lottery and other funding at a time when arts budgets are being cut everywhere else.
How do you think they managed the Full English and Take 6 projects?
I'm sure they could use more, but desperate is hardly the right word anymore.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:10 PM

Ah! The Good Ole English Primary School Song Society! Explains it all...(flees to the Welsh Hills)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:57 PM

No, we did Country Dancing at primary school.

I describe myself as a traditional dance caller - and then offer all the options, 'barn dance', 'ceilidh' etc.
Though the experts might know the difference, when you are calling for a wedding there's no difference, it's what works on the night.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 02:38 PM

That's what people did at infants school


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM

Erm, Folk Dance, anyone?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

"Ceilidh" is a Scottish word, but for reasons which have been discussed exhaustively elsewhere the word has been adopted for a particular style of English folk dancing. South of the Border ceilidhs are very seldom Scottish, unless specifically advertised as such. Of course you sometimes get people turning up in Highland dress, but if you call it a "barn dance" they will turn up in cowboy hats and toy six-shooters, so you can't win.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 10:17 AM

Where's the problem? Ceilidhs are Scottish, and when ths Scots vote to go their own way, they will become as relevant as Irish dances and the rest.
Now then, if some of you decided to get the EFDSS to act as cover for a replacement operation playing English folk from inside the tradition, and trademarked it, you might get somewhere, as well as funding the EFDSS, which is something they desperately need.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: treewind
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:36 AM

"They are monopolising the web, preventing any other ceilidh band getting gigs, and thus slowly strangling the ceilidh band scene."

A bit of an exaggeration, though I'm no apologist for their marketing methods.
Anyway, I tried ceilidh Band Cambridge on Google and the Ship band only appeared as the second of two paid Google adverts, under London-based Licence to Ceilidh. My own band appeared third in the proper listings under the adverts, and we get enough work without having to pay Google for the privilege. (insert smug grin emoticon here)

Interestingly about half way down the page was an outfit described as "Cambridge-based band... drawing from a large pool of local talent". At least they are honest about what they do. The Cambridge University Ceilidh band is similar, being capable of pulling together two or three separate bands on the same night if lucky.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:33 AM

I few test Google searches of "Ceilidh band" + county name. They seem to rank well in some counties but have been pushed off the first page in others.

A different band has some keyword stuffing in very small type at the bottom of their home page:

Top Ceilidh Band in all the following areas: Hertfordshire, Herts ,Hertford, London, Hemel Hempstead, Welwyn, St Albans. Also available in the following areas the 1st choice for Ceilidh bands in Buckinghamshire, Bucks, High Wycombe, Aylesbury, See the impressive list of venues where we have performed in FAQ's. Including: Ceilidh bands Oxford, Oxfordshire, Oxon etc. We are one of the top ceilidh bands in the UK. High energy and lots of fun. See video. Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, Top Ceilidh bands St Neots. Weddings in Bishops Stortford, As Professional Musicians we perform in all areas including: Chelmsford, Colchester, Essex etc. Ceilidh band playing sparking jigs and reels in the following areas: Ceilidh bands Berkshire, Berks Reading, Wokingham, Maidenhead. Windsor etc. Also venues in and around the Bedfordshire, Beds and areas, including: Milton Keynes etc. The is no travel cost in these areas.
Looking forward to 2014/15


I can't work out if this is a repeat of the Ship Band format or just some dodge web design.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:06 AM

My list of bands does not include Oxon bands but nearby, if it is any use try cresby.com ceilidh bands


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:01 AM

I contributed to the discussion on E-Ceilidh. I have danced to "a" Ship Band at Sidmouth. The driving force is an excellent fiddler and comes from a folkie/morris family. My problem with the concept is that you don't know who will be in the line-up. In effect they are a band of deps - effectively.
They were danceable in the open on the sloping tarmac at the Anchor, Sidmouth- a (sort of) free dance event. But in an auditorium with a sprung wooden floor & a band full of deps - I am not so sure. They would have to prove it to me. And they will get their chance at Stroud Ceilidhs next year. I will spot any Gloucestershire members (if any). I don't choose the bands only publicise "Stroud Ceilidhs". Which start on Fri Sept 26 at Stroud Folk Festival with GB2H a local band with national credentials (Paul Burgess & Martin Brinsford are the B2 - eg)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: IanC
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM

This is clearly in breach of Advertising Standards so I have submitted a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority who will be investigating the search.

If you'd like to complain, the site is here.

http://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain.aspx

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,Andy Growly
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:05 AM

Let me explain what the ship band is, for anyone who doesn't know.

It was started by a guy who knows his Google, and put work into getting a Google monopoly on "ceilidh band" anywhere in the country. So if you Google "ceilidh band Bristol" "The Ship Band, Bristol" come up as the top hit. If you Google "ceilidh band Manchester", "the Ship Band, Manchester" comes up as the top hit.

There is a video on their website that shows a good band, and they market themselves as The Top Ceilidh Band in the Country.

They they get bookings around the country, and create a band out of local musicians to do the gig. Sometimes an area will have a fixed "Ship Band", which explains why the band that someone has seen was the same band every time. Sometimes it will be a shifting band selected out of a pool of musicians. Meanwhile, the founder takes a cut on every gig, and lives luxuriously off the proceeds without doing anything.

Sometimes the band will be good. Sometimes they are terrible. It depends on who they get.

How fraudulent is this? I certainly don't like it. They are monopolising the web, preventing any other ceilidh band getting gigs, and thus slowly strangling the ceilidh band scene. Their founder is acting as a classic capitalist - living off unearned income based on exploiting a web monopoly. Their bands aren't always bad, but they sometimes are. And either way, they aren't the band in the video on the website. There is a difference between using the odd dep, and being a totally different product. Most bands need to put effort into creating something good as they get gigs on the basis of having a good reputation. The ship band don't. They get them on the basis of their dodgy advertising.

To be fair, it's not hugely different from what many big companies do. They monopolise the market through aggressive, rather dishonest marketing and drive everyone else out of business. They have some capitalist at the top who lives richly while doing nothing. The thing is that in the music scene, people generally treat each other a bit better than that.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 05:44 PM

Strange that, rudog. GUEST, The Ship Band said different on 26 Oct 11 - 05:32 AM (and in a rather offensive manner):

Of course we use deps, everyone does, we just do it more efficiently and we regularly book musicians that would otherwise be performing in some of the UK's top performing folk bands and acts

The idea that a group of musicians that get together to rehearse the Rochdale Coconut Dance and compare notes on the beards hanging below the bottom rim of their short shorts once a week are more qualified as a band than the "scratch band" of professional / semi-professional musicians that we put together is laughable.


Considering the bad feeling generated BY spokespersons of the band in this thread, you would probably have been better advised to let sleeping (ru)dogs lie...


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 09:46 AM

Fan Club President I presume, you waited over a year to tell us you like them ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST,rudog
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:38 AM

wow - everyone is jumping to conclusions here - The Ship Band is not a franchise, they do not subcontract performers. They are all based in the South West - same musicians play each gig. Occasionally they have brought in a drummer or caller when another member hasn't been available to gig (they all have full time jobs).

They've played our events dozens of times, not only as performers but also running dance workshops and instrumental workshops, they also played our staff training weekend each year

Great performers, fixed band, original music as well as quality covers - perhaps a little over zealous in marketing- But its fair considering they play all over the UK

Highly recommended.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:32 AM

Well Don, I do a lot of charity work myself, but I would not dream of asking perfect strangers to give their services for free.

Thing that tends to piss them off is the Bar is usually normal prices, yet the licencee is never asked to donate his profits to the charity, the people providing the venue rarely do it for sod all, same with caterers etc, its just the poor bloody band who are expected to perform for nothing, yet if they refuse, or even just ask for expenses, they are considered tight gits.

Way of the world I suppose.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:22 AM

P.S. Those donations were of their time to make recordings, so they were all free gigs.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:20 AM

Really Silas?

The vast majority of charity fundraisers are constantly having to ask total strangers to help out.

If you wanted to raise twenty grand, say, do you have ten thousand friends and acquaintances you could tap for a couple of quid each, or would you contact commercial organisations for a more realistic donation?

The very kind donors to the "Guide Cats for the Blind" project were not in the least put out by the fact that they had, mostly, never heard of Clive and Myself.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 10:21 AM

There website now seems to include more musicians. My guess is they're a collective who put together a lineup for each gig depending on location and availability, as opposed to simply putting together a scratch band of whoever they can round up. I had hoped to have a chat with them to find out more.

My guess is that you might be able to find someone who would most likely participate in a gig in (say) Stoke-on-Trent, but it seems possible that the lineup may vary from gig to gig even in the same town.

This is of course pure speculation on my part, since the Ship Band have declined to explain themselves - not that they're under any obligation to of course.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Silas
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:50 AM

Well, Dave, I think you have a bloody cheek to ask people you don't know to do a free gig no matter that it is for charity.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Darowyn
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:42 AM

So, if I take it that the Ship Band are a random group of people from everywhere, how can I contact the members of the collective based in Stoke on Trent directly in order to talk them into doing an (ideally free) spot in a charity event for St Patrick's day nearby?
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:58 AM

Unfortunately I couldn't attend the Bristol ceilidh - I was due to be down there for a course, which got cancelled at the last minute.

I'm told the Ship Band was very good and it was an enjoyable night. However I don't think it's their ability that has been questioned. The question is, if they were to be booked again, whether in Bristol or elsewhere, would you see the same lineup and would the quality of playing be the same? I can't answer that. I suspect the answer to the first is "No", or at least "Not necessarily" but that doesn't necessarily mean an alternative lineup would be any better or worse.

I think their marketing is misleading and I'd prefer them to be more open about their approach - if they are a collective rather than an established lineup why not say so? They say the customer doesn't really care whether or not a band is local, but the person booking them for my organisation certainly thought they were booking a Bristol band, and promoted it as such. However if they can guarantee consistency and assure their customers of an equally good event no matter who is playing then I can't see any significant harm done. It still leaves a bad taste in the mouth though.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM

@Howards Jones?

How did the party in Bristol go? Were the band any good? Did everyone have good time?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 02:22 PM

Bristol shaped - hmm!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM

.........perh. all ship fashion & Bristol shaped?? 8-)


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Howard Jones
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 08:34 AM

It appears the organisation I work for has booked the Ship Band (or its Bristol incarnation) for its Xmas party. As it happens I'll be in Bristol that evening so I'm going along. I'll report back!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 12:00 PM

I have passed that on to the interested parties thanks


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Peter C
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 11:52 AM

They should be going to the Glosfolk web site, clicking on 'Dance' then 'Dance Bands' and checking out a few truly local (to Gloucestershire) bands!


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 06:39 AM

Refresh


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 02:49 PM

Well, now we've done the downside, how about the upside?

If someone was looking for a good cheap folk-oriented band for a wedding reception in Gloucestershire (note, NOT pronounced "Glue" "Chester" "Shy" "Yer") what/who SHOULD they be looking for?

No I am not getting married.


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 03:04 PM

On the face of it it appears to be a breach of S. 2 of the Fraud Act 2006.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/contents


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: BTNG
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM

the thought of a "corporate" Dubliners does funny things to me, I'll try to forget...LOL Greg I do agree with you and your point about what would or could they be charged with. Do we have any legitimate legal representatives among Mudcatters who could clear this matter up?


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Subject: RE: The Ship Band ; Fraud Ceilidh band
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 02:12 PM

I wonder how much money this pretending to come from different towns actually makes them? Is it really worth the risk of getting done for gaining pecuniary advantage by deception or whatever...what would the offence be? Perhaps a lawyer could elucidate?
The Dubliners should maybe have thought of this(or the Houghton Weavers, or the Oldham Tinkers, come to that). They could have websites calling themselves the Skegnessers, or the Carlislers or whatever, and got lots more gigs.


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