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Help: houlihan? - Old Paint

DigiTrad:
GOODBYE, OLD PAINT
I RIDE AN OLD PAINT


Related threads:
Lyr Add: Rebel Soldier (cf. Old Paint) (23)
(origins) Origins: I Ride An Old Paint (99)
I ride an old paint - houlighan? fiery & snuffy? (35)
Old Paint: What's a hoolian? (60)
Hoolian??????? (44)
old paint and goodbye old paint lyrics (3)
Lyr Req: Goodbye Old Paint (6)
Song Title please ?-I Ride an Old Paint (21)
Lyr Req: Riding Old Paint and Leading Old Ball (22)


GUEST,coberly@peak.org 17 Jun 06 - 02:17 AM
Slag 28 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Jul 06 - 04:40 PM
katlaughing 28 Jul 06 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,Nerd 28 Jul 06 - 11:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jul 06 - 12:45 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 29 Jul 06 - 12:56 AM
Barry Finn 29 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM
Mark Ross 29 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM
katlaughing 29 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM
Sorcha 29 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,Akuhn 18 Feb 11 - 02:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Feb 11 - 02:59 PM
GUEST 13 May 12 - 07:23 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 May 12 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Lighter 13 May 12 - 07:22 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 May 12 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Lighter 14 May 12 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,miguel obrien 10 May 13 - 07:55 PM
Rapparee 10 May 13 - 08:58 PM
Lighter 11 May 13 - 08:38 AM
NormanD 18 May 13 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,leeneia 18 May 13 - 10:16 AM
Rapparee 18 May 13 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Sheila 29 Jun 13 - 08:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Jun 13 - 12:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,coberly@peak.org
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 02:17 AM

what an amazing site. since it's all about etymologies of cowboy words i wonder if you would put up with my speculation that "cowboy" has nothing to do with cows or boys. you have to imagine someone from new england going out west in the early 1800's where he would encounter mexicans who called themselves caballeros. since that sounded like cah - bay with -ero tacked onto the end like a lot of spanish words, our gringo greenhorn just naturally assumed it meant cow boy, rather than horseman or even gentleman.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Slag
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM

What an interesting read. My Dad always wanted to know what throwing the hoolihan meant and now I can tell him authoritatively that I don't have an idea. Near as I can figure the word here is really "Hooligan" and the cowboy riding Old Paint (obviously a horse that was vandalized by said hooligan) is tracking him down to somewhere in Monatana. He decided to ride Old Paint even though the hooligan tagger defaced him because he says his dogies was barking. Well, that his misfortune and none of my own. Nonetheless, when he catches the hooligan I imagine he WILL throw him.. I would!


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 04:40 PM

Interesting speculation, Coberly, but 'cowboy' goes way back. In the UK it literally means a boy who tends cows (Oxford English Dictionary) and is in print from 1725.
The name 'cowboy' was applied to some barbarous tory partisans during the Revolutionary War (in print in 1775).
In 1849, Jenkins, in "Hist. of the War U. S. and Mexico," wrote of Texas cow-boys attacking Mexican 'rancheros' who crossed the Rio Grande, perhaps the first reference in print to the 'cowboy' as we know him in America (OED), thus indicating earlier use of the term.

In Spanish used in North America, vaquero (cowman) is the word for a cowboy.
Donald Gilbert y Chavez, in his excellent "Cowboys - Vaqueros, Origins of the First American Cowboys," (Univ. New Mexico Press, and internet- http://www.unm.edu/~gabbriel/index.html )- says "Cowboy - a transliteration of the Spanish word vaquero (cowman) into the English cowboy, widely applied term used to refer to men who tended livestock..., also cowhand, cowpoke, or cowpuncher." He doesn't believe that American usage of 'cowboy' is descended from English and British Isles usage.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:11 PM

And then there were ranch owners like my granddad and my dad who called themselves "cow men." I wonder did it have more to do with them owning land and livestock instead of being men for hire. Certainly they had nothing against being called "cowboys" and hired plenty of them to help with roundup, etc.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 11:29 PM

Also, Vaquero, with the characteristic hard V in Spanish (sounds much like a B), became Buckaroo. (Although some do claim descent from an African word, which sounded much like "buckra," any oldtime Nevada Buckaroo will tell you it's from Vaquero.)


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 12:45 AM

Nerd, Gilbert y Chavez (link above) would agree with you. Also Ramon F. Adams ("Western Words"), who adds the perversions baquero, buckhara and buckayro from "The Cowboy," by Phillip A. Rollins.

Kat, that is the way we (in my family) understood 'cow men'.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 12:56 AM

DAMN! These broken threads.

It appears that Gargoyle is asking for HELP and answering his own request.

Come on folks cough up a little of that mid-western phlem to help keep the Mudcat's server cool again.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM

Subject: RE: Hoolian???????
From: Barry Finn - PM
Date: 15 May 98 - 10:23 PM

Had an old copy of Goodbye Old Paint as sung by Sloan Mathews, (also playing a lone fiddle-that's by himself-all alone) in the notes (don't know where they came from) I have "Hoolian" a form of bulldogging, where the snout of the calf or steer is seized & pressed, forcing the head to the ground & thus throwing it, rather than twisting it's head in the common practice of todays rodeos.

Dogies; "an orphan calf, whose mammy had died & whose daddy had run off with another cow, sick & feeble, their young bellies would swell from to early a diet of grass & be left with a gut full of dough (the short definition, a young or small yearling). Barry


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Mark Ross
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

Hoolihan is a thrown flat loop, thrown clockwise, with minimal twirling, used to catch a horse in a corral. Otherwise the spinning loop would spook the animal. Got this from Glenn Ohrlin, who would know.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 11:35 AM

Thanks, Q.

What's the matter, Greg. Didn't you have a happy birthday?


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM

Many cowboys couldn't spell, leading to confusion among non-cowpokes. Among themselves, words were used in context, so it made no never mind- they understood each other. I think al this has been covered before, but Here, in their entirety are the definitions (from "Western Words," Ramon F. Adams, 1944, Univ. Oklahoma Press).

"Hooley-ann- [mis-spoke as hooligan, hoolihan, etc.- see post by Mark Ross; in common lingo the original term is becoming lost].

A roping term. This throw can be made either from the ground or on horseback. The roper carries the loop in his hand, and when the chance presents itself, he swings one quick whirl around in front of him toward the right, up over his head, and releases the loop and rope in the direction of the target. As it comes over, it is turned in a way to cause it to flatten out before it reaches the head of the animal to be roped. It lands straight down and so has a fair-sized opening.
"It is a fast loop and is strictly a head catch, being especially used to catch horses in a corral. It is thrown with a rather small loop and has the additional virtue of landing with the honda* sliding down the rope, taking up the slack as it goes." (W. M. French, "Ropes and Roping," Cattleman XXVI, no. 12, May 1940, pp. 17-30.
(*Honda- From Spanish Hondon, the hole or slip ring end of the rope used to catch the animal. Gilbert y Chavez, Ch. 9, Vaquero/Cowboy Lingo, http://www.unm.edu/~gabbriel/chap9.html. (or from the publication- see post above.)

Additional on Hooley-ann - "The rope has not been slung over the horse's head, for to sling it would cause even the steadiest old horse to become excited. Using the hooley-ann, half a dozen men can rope mounts at the same time without exciting the horses." John M. Hendrix, "Roping," Cattleman, XXII, no. 1, June 1935, pp. 17-17.

"Hoolihaning- The act of leaping forward and alighting on the horns of a steer in bulldogging in such a manner as to knock the steer down without having to resort to twisting him down with a wrestling hold. This practice is barred at practically all recognized rodeos

"Also to throw a big time in town- to paint the town red."

"Hooligan wagon- A wagon used on short drives to carry fuel and water in a country where these commodities are scarce."


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM

What have I been saying all along?????? See about a gazillion posts up.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Akuhn
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:27 PM

Thanks to all who commented on this thread. My students have enjoyed cowboy poetry and songs along with the historical research on the Old West way of life. It has been fun. A great way to knock off the poetry, research, public speaking, response to literature standards! Their projects were fantastic- comic strip interpretations of current country music, chuckwagon cookbooks, wanted posters for some of the Old West's most colorful characters, history of cowboy apparel, women of the Old West...on and on. Really was a fun unit to do with sixth graders. I appreciate having this information to read and relate to them.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 02:59 PM

Akuhn- good for you! A fun topic students can relate to.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:23 AM

Houlahan is the celebration at the end of the cattle drive. They were going (trailing ) to Montana. Which at the time of the song was the trailhead for the distribution of cattle ( meat ) to the west coast.
they were probably driving from Colorado or Wyoming as New Mexico was driving into California and old Mexico. In case you were wondering "fiery and snuffy " refers to Lightening and Thunder!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 May 12 - 04:48 PM

As our knowledgeable guest says, a "celebration at the end of a cattle drive" or other excuse for a wingding, unfortunately confused with the rope maneuver (hooleyann), even by some who should know better.

Some New Mexico cowboys, Hispanic and Anglo, shied over to make a few bucks and made the drives north as well. Several cattle drives aimed at feeding the hungry Indians who had been herded into reservations in Montana and the Dakotas were paid for by the benevolent(?) government.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:22 PM

See upthread, Sept. 2004.

After nearly eight years, Adams's authority for the definition "paint the town red" is as mysterious as ever, unless he deduced it from the song.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 May 12 - 01:51 PM

Widely known, I thought. No specific published origin for this and other western expressions.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 May 12 - 03:54 PM

I once assumed that too. But I can't find any pre-Larkin examples in Google Books.

I'm not saying the sense is imaginary or "wrong," just that it may have originated in error and have been popularized only through "I'm Riding Old Paint." Certainly the song hasn't been found in print before the late 1920s - though a million times since.

Ramon F. Adams (1889-1976) was a musician, writer, and businessman. Though he became an authority on cowboy life, he wasn't a cowboy. He took copious notes about Western lingo, but as far as I can tell he wasn't very critical of his slang sources. The mere presence of a word or phrase in "Western Words" is no guarantee that it was widely known.

More about Adams: http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fad22


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,miguel obrien
Date: 10 May 13 - 07:55 PM

Just had a thought about 'an old Dan'   A very old term for the debil was 'Dan Patch'. Another way of saying 'a rough bronc'? Might also imply 'dun', a color, with suggestions of 'buckskin' :tough, rugged caballo.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 May 13 - 08:58 PM

Here's how to throw a houlihan from the ground. It's the same from a horse, only a bit more difficult. Practice it from the ground first -- and use a good cow pony. When you get the houlihan down you can try a figure-eight catch.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Lighter
Date: 11 May 13 - 08:38 AM

GUEST, too many lit crit courses?

I have suffered similarly.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: NormanD
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:33 AM

I just came across the second ever reference to "houlihan". Cormac McCarthy uses the word in "The Crossing", the second novel in his "The Border" trilogy. It's used as described extensively above - about a rider throwing a rope over his horse.

McCarthy does use a lot of arcane and obscure language - a lot technical - to fill his wonderful writing.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:16 AM

Thanks for the link, Rap.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 May 13 - 11:07 AM

The language of the "cow business" contains, as does the language of so many other occupations, references which are obscure to those not in the profession.

In my own, librarianship, we might make reference to a "marc record" or to "Sears," both of which might convey information to someone but which information would have little or even incorrect meaning. A "marc record" would mean one in "MAchine Readable Cataloging format" and "Sears" would refer not to the retailer but the the "Sears List of Subject Headings" -- depending, of course, on the context. "I'm going to Sears" could be an equivocal statement!

Likewise, a rancher or cowboy (yes, they still exist, but they're hard to see from the Interstates) might use the terms "sucker rod" (part of a windmill, not a bad car sold to a teenager), "A-fork" (a type of saddle), "wheel line" (a type of irrigation), or "Brangus" (a Brahma/Angus cross-breed of cattle).

Worse, the lingo in every living profession is in constant change or might have multiple meanings. A "throw" in ranchland could mean the toss of a rope or to be tossed off a horse (yes, they're still used).

So if you're spooked or thrown by some term in a genuine Western song -- for explain, when the Devil is headed to a blackjack oak after the guys took their dallies in "The Sierry Petes" -- it's best to look it up. Remember though that the jargon can be different in different parts of the country: an arroyo, a coollee, and gulch may or may not refer to the same thing.

Check out the references in the song "Zebra Dun." Then try to convince yourself to ride a horse.


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 29 Jun 13 - 08:38 PM

What's a "Paint"? A "Dan"?


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Subject: RE: Help: houlihan? - Old Paint
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jun 13 - 12:28 PM

Both are hosses. Or Dan may be a mule.


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