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Public concerts in 'churches' ?

GUEST,Suibhne Astray 13 Oct 11 - 05:12 AM
Joe Offer 13 Oct 11 - 12:20 AM
Jeri 12 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM
John P 12 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM
Deckman 12 Oct 11 - 06:10 PM
Don Firth 12 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM
Joe Offer 12 Oct 11 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Oct 11 - 12:38 PM
Deckman 12 Oct 11 - 09:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 12 Oct 11 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,glueman 11 Oct 11 - 09:06 PM
Deckman 11 Oct 11 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,999 11 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM
Deckman 11 Oct 11 - 07:02 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 11 Oct 11 - 05:28 PM
MGM·Lion 11 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,999 11 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Oct 11 - 02:47 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 11 - 02:13 PM
GUEST 11 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Oct 11 - 10:13 AM
John P 11 Oct 11 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 11 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM
Don Firth 11 Oct 11 - 01:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Oct 11 - 01:31 AM
Effsee 10 Oct 11 - 10:19 PM
Suegorgeous 10 Oct 11 - 07:29 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM
ripov 10 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM
Stewart 10 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM
Richard from Liverpool 10 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 11 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 10 Oct 11 - 10:57 AM
DrugCrazed 10 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM
DrugCrazed 10 Oct 11 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Oct 11 - 06:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Oct 11 - 06:09 AM
Mick Tems 10 Oct 11 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,glueman 10 Oct 11 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,glueman 10 Oct 11 - 03:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 05:12 AM

there are as many spiritual truths on this planet as there are individual human beings.

I think that's the one thing any of us can be certain about and why, essentially, I'm an atheist, but insist on being all accommodating if a little evangelistically so at times, but only by way of a greater sense of inclusion. In discussion these things are always more straightforward and polemical, especially on-line; I don't even debate the issues with door-to-door canvassers anymore and though many of my friends & family are deeply religious (my sister-in-law is head of religious studies at an RC high school) we get along famously.

Earlier on I figured that the only truly sacred buildings are our homes - in terms of sanctuary, sanctity and a more vivid sense of 'Holiness', the violation of which is quite unthinkable. This sacredness is at once common to all (all who have homes anyway) & entirely subjective, just as spirituality is subjective, just as life experience is subjective. We have our joys, sorrows, loves, losses, and in our homes we mark these with seasonal rites and anniversaries, Folklore, Customs and Traditions which are also strictly personal, totally objective and unique from one family to a next even though they might just happen to share superficial similarities to what may or may not happen next door.

In England, Churches are an integral aspect of our urban and rural landscapes; big, small, old, new - they are loved of all & cherished by the religious and the atheist alike. In many cases they are iconic to our regional ID - like Durham Cathedral, which exists on any number of cultural levels. For some, it's all about the incorrupt corpse of a celebrated Northumbrian Saint, and of the Venerable Bede who collected his hagiography together in terms of enchanting Folk Tales full of humour, exciting miracles, enchanting animals and a richer humanity that makes Saint Cuthbert a fascinating figure to this day. For others Durham Cathedral will be sacred because to Jimi Hendrix it was fairy-land; something I bear in mind everytime I look at that famous view from the train window as you cross the viaduct...

In terms of wider Folklore, perhaps the most enduring memories of music in Durham Cathedral is the times I've been in there during the Miners' Gala and the acoustics come alive as a colliery band plays Gresford - or something suitably solemn, but not overtly sacred - only in the hearts that are stilled to a tremor in the presence of something that awesome, but essentially unsayable, however so common the cause which now exists in terms of a raw cultural emotion. Other times I've watched operas by Peter Maxwell Davies (the Martyrdom of Saint Magnus back in 1977 - ostensibly religious but Max concentrated as much on contemporary persecution as he does on saintly themes; the cathedral was ideal space for both) and Henry Purcell (Dido and Aeneas is as pagan as it gets, but Durham Cathedral accommodated it, wanton sailors, witches & all, with good grace).

During the York Early Music festival it would be hard to avoid music in churches - sacred, secular, solemn, sensual. I've seen Jordi Savall's Hesperion XXI up by the high alter in the Minster playing Spanish secular Folias, Villancicos and Canarios - and I've seen Esther Lamandier playing medieval love songs on harp and portative organ in a fine old church back in 1981 (can't remember which). We missed Emma Kirkby's recital in Ss Peter and Paul at Salle a few years ago, but in our travels (which always includes historic churches) you'd be amazed at the variety of musical performances happening in the most far-flung parishes. People - artists & punters alike - warm to the cultural & historical resonance of an old church. The spiritual dimension is always subjective; that's a personal thing, but one thing we can all share in is the beauty of place and a more communal appreciation of its place in our wider community, history & folklore both local and national. Anyone who owns Simon Jenkins' England's Thousand Best Churches will know what I mean; just as they will also know that it barely represents the tip of the iceberg.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 12:20 AM

Well, Jeri, I'm insulted because it's people here that I like who are so closed-minded to religious thinking, that all they can see is fundamentalism, judgmentalism, and prejudice among religious people. It's very evident that fundamentalism, judgmentalism, and prejudice exist among some religious people, but that's far from the norm.

That being said, I have to say that there have been some very good and very tolerant things said in this thread, even by atheists. Here's something from Suibhne that I liked very much:
    I merely meant that established religions - be they RC or Anglican - tend to comprise mostly civilised individuals who recognise the folkloric realities of religion (i.e. they can't all be right but they can all be wrong) and treat their entirely subjective faith accordingly and refrain from proselytizing because, deep down, that faith is gratifyingly accomodating of the fact that there are as many spiritual truths on this planet as there are individual human beings.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM

Joe, you feel insulted because you're on one "side" of the issue. The law of the land here is to fight about anything that suits your fancy, even if that fight has happened to the point where anybody with a brain is actually bored by it.

It's the internet. 4% of the people on the internet are either assholes or morons, and another 1% is just batshit crazy. Unfortunately, that 3% writes 99% of the posts, and the only thing they care about is having an audience for their shit.

Are we having fun yet?


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: John P
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM

I have felt insulted by almost every religion thread at Mudcat.

Joe, would it be more accurate to say that every religion thread has had individuals on them who write insulting things? The threads themselves, from what I've seen, have MOSTLY not been started as insults, and many people are perfectly polite, even if they disagree with religious belief in general. I hope I've stayed in that category; please let me know if I ever cross a line for you.

Anyone who paints all religious people (or all atheists, or all anything else) with the same brush are just garden-variety losers. I'm especially tired of the incessant review of religious atrocities from the past. Stupid and pointless! But I've also had several really good discussions with fair-minded people on these threads.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:10 PM

Well Joe ... I'll apologize to YOU, but only to you. And I apologize to you because of my great respect for you.

When I started this thread, I was sincerly wondering if anyone other than myself had difficulties entering a church for a folk music concert.

I certainly wasn't trying to start a fight, but I guess I should have known better. STOOOPID ME! eh?

I'm outa' here. bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM

Be warned before you start. This screed is pretty long.

I wanted to say something on the particular subject that Deckman addressed in his opening post. And this, if you will indulge me, is a test run. I have just loaded the latest version of Dragon NaturallySpeaking, a voice recognition and dictation program, on my laptop and I wanted to give it a workout. So here we go:

####

I've gone to churches to hear musical performances a number of times, and I've also sung in churches from time to time. For the most part, these were performances that had nothing to do with the church itself. The church was merely the venue.

Most of my early experiences with churches were reasonably pleasant. I can't say that my father was not a religious man, but he was not in the habit of going to church with any regularity. I think he found his religious experiences in nature. He loved to get out on a body of water such as Puget Sound in the small boat and just cruise around, under the guise of fishing. He never talked much about things religious.

My mother, on the other hand, was a "seeker." She recalled a time in her early twenties when she and a friend went to church of a Sunday morning and heard the same droning, boring sermon she had heard off and on every Sunday morning for most of her life. As they were leaving the church, her friend heaved a heavy sigh, and said, "That just wasn't enough food for my soul!" Mom said that was exactly how she felt. She read a great deal, often in Eastern religions, and dipped into the occult from time to time. Whenever we went to church, it was usually on a religious holiday such as Christmas or Easter. Then sporadically there would be periods where we would attend one church or another with some regularity, such as the Christian Science church a couple of blocks from where we lived, or a Unity church near downtown. Also, for a period of time, she attended the Vedanta Center (genuine Hindu swami presiding) on the north side of Capitol Hill on Sunday mornings. As I said, she was a "seeker."

My own religious beliefs (if any) are a slumgullion composed of a mixture of skepticism and speculation, liberally spiced with both ancient and modern philosophy, and fairly solidly anchored by my love for and fascination with science and cosmology.

Do I believe in God? Well, yes and no. I have a hard time buying the image of the big, muscular Father Figure dressed in a nightshirt, with the stern visage and long beard, who keeps careful accounts of who's naughty and nice, hurls the occasional thunderbolt, marks the fall of every sparrow, and who cobbled this whole, immense Cosmos together in seven literal days a mere 6,000 years ago.

On the other hand, I also have a hard time buying the idea that it's all just a random, mechanical construct with no underlying purpose or meaning.

I figure that if the Cosmos was purposefully built by someone or something, then that someone or something is so far beyond our understanding and ability to comprehend that for someone to seriously say that he or she knows the Mind of God, they either have to be a con-merchant or seriously bewildered.

Who knows? We all may be little bits of fungus growing in some celestial Petri dish, and what we think of as God is merely a lab technician in some Universal Laboratory.

I have an emotional prejudice against the idea that it's All Meaningless, and that when I come to fall off the twig, my awareness (Soul? Whatever.) will simply wink out. But—who really knows?

Nobody, that's who. No matter how hard they pound on the Bible.

But I'm cool. My mother was kind of into the idea of reincarnation a bit. I figure that when my time comes, if there IS an Afterlife, it will be a whole new adventure. But if not, I will have no "awareness" with which to be disappointed. So, no sweat.

I have been "assaulted" by a variety of weirdos who were hell-bent on saving my soul (I think their minister gave them a quota or something), but due to a course I took at the University of Washington back shortly after the Big Bang, "The Bible as Literature," I was well armed against such assaults. In the class there was absolutely NO religious discussion allowed. What we read was to be discussed as literary works, short stories, poetry, et al, and the prof stepped heavily on anyone who wanted to discuss any possible religious interpretations. Therefore, when someone started slapping me around with verses from the Bible, I was able to interrupt them and say, "Wait a minute! That isn't what that verse means!" then quote it back to them in context and point out what it really meant.

I could be a real pain in the ass to self-appointed soul-savers! (Fun!!)

My wife was raised in the Lutheran church, and went to church regularly all of her life, so when we got married, I started going with her. Despite the fact that she went to a main-line church all her life, she's an independent thinker, and she thinks very much the way I do. We're both members of Central Lutheran Church on Capitol Hill in Seattle. The pastors have all been cool, and the pastor who was there when I first joined, and all of the subsequent ones, were people I could have long, philosophical discussions with. They were open to all kinds of speculation and were not at all dogmatic.

In fact, one of them once held up a copy of the Bible and said, 'This is NOT the Boy Scout Manual! It's full of questions, not answers! And that's what we're here to discuss."

I can get thoroughly disgusted with some of these people who claim to be "Christians" (displaying a great deal of Pride—which is one of the Seven Deadly Sins—in the idea that they are saved and you, undoutedly, are not) who espouse ideas and principles that, according to the Bible, anyway, Jesus specifically preached against! Plenty of examples of this. Compare what Jesus says in Matthew 25:35-40 to the current crop of hard-charging evangelical "Christian" Right-Wingers who want to obliterate such things as Social Security and Medicare and eliminate all social programs—and then rant that they're trying to turn the United States into a "Christian" country as the Founding Fathers intended, thereby displaying their ignorance of the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights as well. Bloody hypocrites!!

And I get equally disgusted with the kind of "Christians" who do little but dwell on other people's sins, are dogmatic and dictatorial, and emphasize the "Thou shalt nots" rather than talking about anything positive, such as forgiveness and redemption-- which, incidentally, is what Jesus talked about most of the time. It's this kind of negative mentality that will generously allow a kid to practice his lessons on the church's piano during off hours, and then, when he practices some scales and tries to work a bit on a piece by Fredric Chopin, they yank him off the piano for playing "that sort of thing" (was Chopin a Rastafarian or something?) and not "Christian music." With that sort of intimidation and general repressive atmosphere, no wonder the kid develops a life-long aversion to churches and religion in general.

To me, church buildings are bricks and mortar, and most of them have very good acoustics. They're intended to be that way, obviously. I have no qualms about going to a church to hear some non-affiliated musician or musical group perform. Nor do I have any qualms about performing in most churches provided I'm free to perform what I what (keeping in mind such things as good taste. I would not be inclined to sing "Sam Hall" with a stained glass picture of Jesus smiling benevolently down at me).

In the church to which Barbara and I belong, I have heard a number of concerts, including a couple of lutenists doing duets (very suitable setting for the Renaissance music they were playing) and I also heard an "early music" group who did several songs from D'Urfey's "Pills to Purge Melancholy" (from which Ed McCurdy got most of the songs he sang on his "When Dalliance was in Flower and Maidens Lost their Heads" albums). Nobody complained.

I have also performed in this church, taking part in periodic social evenings within the congregation (singing programs of folk songs and ballads), and at one Christmas Eve candlelight service, I played the guitar and sang a duet of "Silent Night" with one of the choir members, duplicating the first time the carol was sung—duet with guitar accompaniment. I also sang John Jacob Niles's "I Wonder as I Wander," and then provided guitar accompaniment for my wife and another woman as they sang, in duet, the "Coventry Carol" and "Down in Yon Forest." Most appropriate for a Christmas Eve candlelight service.

But—there ARE churches—self-styled "Christian" churches like the negative ones I talk about above—that I would not enter under ANY circumstances.

Major point: Since Barbara and I are members of the church, for the concert on October 14th, 2007, we got the use of the church without charge. Just as a courtesy, I slipped a few bucks to the custodian because he had to hang around 'til the concert and reception were over and do whatever tidying up might be necessary. None of it went into the church funds.

But even if it had, that would not have particularly bothered me, knowing this church as I do. The pastor insists on taking a much smaller salary than is usual for pastors, and most of the church funds, provided by the Sunday collection plate and various contributions and donations from the congregation, go for such programs as providing nourishing meals in the large meeting room in the parish house next door for people down on their luck (without their having to "pay" for the meal by listening to a sermon). The church is also involved in an ongoing program of finding or providing safe and comfortable housing for the homeless or those with low incomes.

They "preach" service, taking their lesson from the text in Matthew 25:35-40 as mentioned above, and they practice what they preach.

Don Firth

Note: all of the above done by dictation, including additions and corrections and general editing and tidying up, without having to touch the keyboard.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:17 PM

Well, if there are people still wanting to talk, it doesn't make sense to close down a thread just because somebody asked. We accept requests for thread closure, talk about it, and then make a decision.
This thread has been distasteful to me from the very beginning - even the enclosure of the word 'churches' in quotes rubs me the wrong way.

But hell, anti-religious bigotry is the law of the land at Mudcat. After all, says the Conventional Wisdom, it's only right to insult people who practice religion, since they're such a horrible blight on humankind.

Bullshit.

I have felt insulted by almost every religion thread at Mudcat.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM

No one's saying a thread can't be closed by asking (as I've heard say) - but I'm sure there're other factors involved than a petulant OP just needing a little help to get over himself and his irrational phobia of Churches. There's been secular music in Churches going back hundreds of years - and lots of secular elememts incorporated into the liturgy, from Pagan Roman Chant that (allegedly) formed the basis of early Xtian plainsong to the sort of ghastly Fun 'n' Folk Mass certain clergy feel the need to inflict on their flocks in more recent times. Indeed, I remember one idiot priest playing REM's Everybody Hurts over his ghetto blaster during Holy Communion. I had to leave the church for fear of pissing myself, but no one else was amused I'm sure & the stunt, fortunately, wasn't repeated.

The situation is oddly reversed in the UK Registry Office where couples are denied even a hint of religion in their state marriage ceremony - even Robbie Williams Angels is a no-no. We got round this by sneeking in an In Nomine by Willian Lawes which is essentially a secular piece of music using a sacred ground. My wife's Mother Church wouldn't marry us on account of me being still married (although long divorced). Whilst this sort of mushy-mouthed medievalism irks me greatly, I'm pragmatic enouigh in my atheism to take it in good grace. Indeed, I tore up the papers our local priest gave me necessary to annul my first marriage. As said priest said, it's all a Godless lot of crap anyway.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:38 PM

m ay be not quite accurate that a thread cant be closed just by asking.
a post i was contributing to was closed following a proposer and a seconder.
maybe thats how its done?
no explanation given.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:07 AM

Thanks fellows ... I appreciate the lectures. Maybe, at some time in the future, I'll check in again and see how mudcat is doing. Best wishes ... bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:59 AM

I suppose we can tend to feel possessive or at least protective of threads we start - but we don't own them, and can't just wind them up. Like having a child, as Suibhne said, or lighting a fire. (If you start a tune in a session and you can lift up your leg to mark an end, but that doesn't always work.)

When drift gets in the way of a discussion that can be annoying - but in this case that hasn't happened. The original point has been tossed around and explored pretty extensively, and the discussion has moved on. That's what discussions do.

If the discussion has moved on to stuff Deckman isn't interested in, well there are plenty of other threads, and its easy enough to pull up an old one or start a new one if need be.

I've always quite enjoyed it when a thread I've started keeps on going and veers off into strange territory. Even if I stop contributing I like to drop in and see how things are going. Perhaps Deckman might do that, if this one keeps going.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:03 AM

I'll say it again, just because you start off a discussion doesn't mean you OWN it; just because you start off a thread, doesn't mean it's YOUR THREAD or that you have the right of termination. Think of it as a baby. You've brought it into this world, it takes its first steps, it grows, it matures, it makes its own mind up and it goes where it likes. It time it might come to despise everything you stand for. Such is life.

Just because you don't like it or agree with it doesn't make it CRAP. Everything on here stems from the notion of MUSIC in CHURCHES - where's the problem? It's been a great thread, great fun and any emerging differences (ahem) have been solved in fine old style with recourse to The Good Wine of Life & Conviviality - though I might add, Don, that most Catholics of my acquaintance take Christ at his word and are total pissheads as a result!

On the subject of which, here's a Medieval song collected by those venerable monks of Benediktbeuern into their 13th Century Codex Buranus which sums up much of the above discussion & echoes my own feelings on the subject.

IN TABERNA QUANDO SUMUS

In taberna quando sumus,
non curamus quid sit humus,
sed ad ludum properamus,
cui semper insudamus.
quid agatur in taberna
ubi nummus est pincerna,
hoc est opus ut quaeratur;
si quid loquar, audiatur.

Quidam ludunt,
quidam bibunt,
quidam indiscrete vivunt.
sed in ludo qui morantur,
ex his quidam denudantur,
quidam ibi vestiuntur,
quidam saccis induuntur;
ibi nullus timet mortem,
sed pro Baccho mittunt sortem.

Primo pro nummata vini;
ex hac bibunt libertini;
semel bibunt pro captivis,
post haec bibunt ter pro vivis,
quater pro Christianis cunctis,
quinquies pro fidelibus defunctis,
sexies pro sororibus vanis,
septies pro militibus silvanis.
octies pro fratribus perversis,
nonies pro monachis dispersis,
decies pro navigantibus,
undecies pro discordantibus,
duodecies pro paenitentibus,
tredecies pro iter agentibus.

Tam pro papa quam pro rege
bibunt omnes sine lege.
Bibit hera, bibit herus,
bibit miles, bibit clerus,
bibit ille, bibit illa,
bibit servus cum ancilla,
bibit velox, bibit piger,
bibit albus, bibit niger,
bibit constans, bibit vagus,
bibit rudis, bibit magus,
Bibit pauper et aegrotus,
bibit exul et ignotus,
bibit puer, bibit canus,
bibit praesul et decanus,
bibit soror, bibit frater,
bibit anus, bibit mater,
bibit ista, bibit ille,
bibunt centum, bibunt mille.

Parum sescentae nummatae
durant cum immoderate
bibunt omnes sine meta,
quamvis bibant mente laeta;
sic nos rodunt omnes gentes,
et sic erimus egentes.
qui nos rodunt confundantur
et cum iustis non scribantur.


Translated:

When we are in the tavern, we do not care about what earth is (i.e. what we are made of), we set about gambling and over that we always sweat. We must investigate what happens in the tavern where money is the butler; pay attention to what I say.

Some gamble, some drink, some live without discretion. From those who spend their time in gambling, some are stripped bare, some win clothes, some are dressed in sacks; there no-one fears death, but for the wine they throw dice.

First, for the payment of the wine (i.e. who pays for the wine). Then the boozers start to drink; they drink once to those in prison, after that, three times for the living, four times for all Christendom, five times for the faithful departed, six times for sisters of loose virtue, seven times for soldiers of the forest, eight times for brothers in error, nine times for scattered monks, ten times for those who sail, eleven times for men quarrelling, twelve times for those doing penance, thirteen times for those on journeys.

For pope and king alike all drink without restraint.

The mistress drinks, so does the master, the soldier drinks, so does the cleric, that man drinks, that woman drinks, the servant drinks with the maid, the fast man drinks, so does the slow, the white man drinks, so does the black, the stay-at-home drinks, so does the wanderer, the fool drinks, so does the scholar.

The poor drink, and the sick, the exile and the unknown, the boy, the greybeard, the bishop, the deacon, sister, brother, old woman, mother, that woman, this man, they drink by the hundred, by the thousand.

Large sums of money last too short a time when everybody drinks without moderation and limit, even though they drink with a happy heart; in this everyone sponges on us and it will make us poor.

Damnation to those who sponge on us! Put not their names in the book of Just.


*

Some of you will no doubt recognise this from Carl Orff's famous setting, but here it is on YouTube sung to its original Medieval melody in fine old style by the Clemencic Consort.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMYyQS3CefU

Also in the Codex Buranus we find the blasphemous Gambler's Mass, which echoes the Asinaria Festa in much of its anti-clerical sentiments. Without doubt such secular shit-slinging (literally in the case of the Asinaria Festa) took part in Churches, Monasteries, Abbeys and Cathedrals throughout medieval Europe and the UK. It was all part of the general crack of the thing - jovial, human, inclusive, earthy, obscene, carnal, divine - the very concerns we see echoed in the songs of the Codex Buranus and Misericord carvings.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM

Deckman: " I know that I have probably invited more personal attacks with this posting. Let me leave you with an honest thought ..."

You are right!

I posted this originally, which was a respectful post, then the usual argumentative 'thread hijacker' went berserk, and did what he always does.


"Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 02:16 AM

If you are Catholic, it would bother you...if your Protestant, not so much. If you're REALLY into good music, and can play it(well), churches are as good as a place as any.
BTW, did you know that the Church(Catholic, at the time), banned Bach's music from being played in their churches, or rituals...."

Respectfully,
GfS


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

Bob, why is it a "church"? Do you describe places that sell beer as a "pub", or the place that you live in as your "house", or your workplace as the "office"?

What is it with the inverted commas? Enlighten us, "pray" do.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:06 PM

To be fair Deckman, you never said 'why' you thought having concerts in church was such a bad idea. It could be because you think Christianity is misguided, you may not like the company religion keeps, or you might feel the acoustics are lousy. Without that kind of detail people will guess, which is what they've done and reached their own conclusions.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 08:50 PM

I already have.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:07 PM

Bob, request that the thread be shut down. You started the thread, so that's a reasonable request.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:02 PM

HEY ... YOU GUYS ... KNOCK IT OFF! I started a serious thread about my reluctance to attend a concert of folk music in a "church." Early on, some posters caught my drift and posted thoughtful and respectfull answers. I appreciate that. If I take the effort to start a serious thread, I appreciate it when mudcatters respond in kind.

But you guys ... GEEZE LOUISE ... what in the heck does any of this crap have to do with my original question?

I know that I have probably invited more personal attacks with this posting. Let me leave you with an honest thought ...

If every time I post a thoughful question to the mudcatters and I run into this CRAP ... I obviously will leave Mudcat. I will miss it, because there a lot of thoughtful and knowledgable people here. But ... I'm ready to quit Mudcat. Life is too short and I've got more important things to do. Respectfully ... bob(deckman)nelson


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM

A fairly reliable way to get some hard-charging, tee-totaling evangelist to consign you to the depths of Hell is when he or she starts honking annoyingly about the Evils of Drink, point out that Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine at the wedding feast.

They usually come back with something really lame, like "But that was not wine! That was really grape juice!" Then you respond with, "But in the Bible, it clearly says 'wine.' Are you telling me that the Bible is NOT the Inerrant Word of God?"

At that point, they usually turn a lovely shade of purple and say, "I will pray for you!"

Don Firth

P. S. And then, if you are a real sadist and want to do them in totally, say, "Gee, thanks! Now—would you care for a snifter of really fine brandy? I'm going to have one."


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:28 PM

and when the wine runs out, Jesus performs his first miracle by turning water into wine.

As an old mate once said:

'Gentle Jesus, Lord Divine, who turned the water into wine;
Please forgive we lowly men who wish to turn it back again.'


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM

---"One should strive to grasp the distinction between pedantry and accuracy."---
,.,.,.,
Why ~~ I am accurate
       You are pedantic
       He is a fussy old bugger


               SIMPLES


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM

In the Gospel of John, the story is recounted that Jesus and his disciples are invited to a wedding at Cana in Galilee, and when the wine runs out, Jesus performs his first miracle by turning water into wine.

There are folks on this thread who should understand that their ability to turn beer into urine does not mean they have Divine Powers.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM

I saw many stacked fifths in the liquor store a few days back. So, I know THEY exist.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM

Found in a fortune cookie:

"One should strive to grasp the distinction between pedantry and accuracy."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 02:47 PM

Yes.








:-) :-)


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 02:13 PM

I think there is a bit of confusion on someone's part as to who, here, is consistently, from thread to thread, attacking whom ("Whom." Pedantic enough for you?).

A Google search turned up some information on "stacked fourths." It seems we're talking JAZZ here, not Baroque liturgical music.

No, GfS was two or three centuries off if he was under the impression that J. S. Bach sitting there at the console and whippin' off a few cool riffs on the Flentrop organ was what made his music unwelcome in Catholic churches at the time.

Suibhne Astray, I'm afraid you might be somewhat humor-impaired. Among other things, I took Lynne Truss's book as satire. Whether she did or not.

Ye Gods, there are some humorless people here on these threads!

(Or should that be "humourless?")

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM

"...the come-all-ye Mudcat ethos which is meant to be a friendly & understanding sort of place."

I must have missed that era.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM

The simple version: Stacking in fourths, is mostly used by 'jazzers', though it is found it LOTS of music. Polyphonic is multiple notes at once, as opposed to the Gregorian Chant, which were common at the time.
Did I pass?

GUEST,Suibhne Astray, I got a kick reading your post!
GfS


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:13 AM

A different concern about music in houses of worship here:


http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-happens-when-music-enters-house-of.html


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: John P
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:09 AM

I think Keith Emerson made a career of playing fourths on top on each other. I've done it a fair bit myself. What does it have to do with anything, or are you guys just having a pedant fest?


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM

Stacking Fourths notwithstanding, this whole business amounts to a pedantic savaging reminiscent of another perpreted by the saintly Mr Firth on one of Mudcat's oft-derided (and now, sadly, erstwhile) members. In a pragmatic sense what GfS makes perfect sense, though I don't know enough of Bach's music to say if he used it or not. He's refering to Quartal Voicings more typical of Jazz, though it would surprise me to find them employed elsewhere - even in Folk. Indeed, there are examples hinted at in medieval secular music which survive in Traditional Karadeniz Kemence music and Turkey (and Pontic Lyra music of Greece) which are based around fourths rather that fifths or thirds. It sounds strange to Western Ears, but if you start stacking up Perfect Fifths & Thirds in such a way then that sounds strange too, all the more so in an otherwise monophonic / modal context, such as the early polyphony of the medieval church (Organum), which was seemingly quite different from what Leonin and Perotin were up to at Notre Dame. Anyway, erudition notwithstanding, it's the pedantic pomposity of these attacks (and of those who cluster around like sheep) that most offends the come-all-ye Mudcat ethos which is meant to be a friendly & understanding sort of place.

I can't recall the when or the where of the orginal attack, but it came about when said Erstwhile 'Catter said Could Of instead of the more gramatically correct Could Have. On that occasion Mr Firth referred to that noxious arch-pedant and anti-linguist Lynne Truss as being delightful. What place Pedantry in folk or folklore? Much less in the constantly evolving world of language? The desperate may cling to correctness as a buoy in the rising tides of ever increasing inventiveness consequent on the living dymanic of folk & feral intercourse, but the true lover of Folk will sit back and marvel at the ingenuity of it all.

And it's got feck all to do with Humpty Dumpty either - as those in the UK will know if they've been watching the truly delightful Stephen Fry on his Sunday night programme on BBC2 (Fry's Planet Word, 9pm). Hopefully American viewers will get it before much longer.

*

[come inside my parenthesis of hypocritical shame: Earlier on in this same thread I made a similar corrective post regarding Medieval Pagan Imagery; my excuse was it was first thing on a Saturday (or was in Sunday?) morning after a particularly rough night, and no man is without his passions and the desire to share them. I hope I didn't come across as too corrective on that occasion - my sincere & cringing apologies if did.]


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 01:52 AM

GfS, I think that YOU don't know what "stacking in fourths" means.

If it means anything at all other than an attempt to sound erudite, then kindly explain it to us.

And how does it relate to polyphony?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 01:31 AM

I stand corrected, in one sense, it was 'polyphonic' music, not stacking in fourths.

Come on, you know what stacking in fourths are. I think, without scrolling back you said it earlier.

Thanks Anyway....
(Well, at least this time you were at least 'half right'.....)

GfS


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Effsee
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:19 PM

ripov..."A well known example in Scotland is the Stacked Forths of Firth."...not something I've heard of...please elucidate!


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:29 PM

Drugcrazed - like it!


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM

Good one though, Ripov!

"Stacked Forths" ain't mine. I'm just curious. I've had music theory and history classes up the ziggy and I've never heard of "stacked forths" until now. I'm trying to visualize what this would look like on a music manuscript and imagine what they would sound like.

My local liquor store has whole shelves of stacke fifths, but that's a different ball game.

(I have visions of some ancient Viking sailing his longship up the Firth of Forth and calling out the line from the old car commercial, "It's a Fjord!!")

Oh, well.....

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: ripov
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

A frequent occurence is for as river to be accopmpanied by an underground stream following the same course. These are said to be "stacked". A well known example in Scotland is the Stacked Forths of Firth.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Stewart
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM

Two musical highlights of mine were singing with a small Pomona College vocal ensemble a Josquin des Prez (pre-Bach) polyphonic mass in Old St. Mary's Cathedral in San Francisco and in a Catholic cathedral in Tijuana, Mexico. These were regular church services with all the mystique and mumble-jumble of the RC Church liturgy (I had strong agnostic leanings even back then, but no harm was done). Cathedrals are fantastic spaces in which to sing.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM

I hope Guest from Sanity isn't suggesting there was no Catholic Polyphonic music in the time period prior to Bach. If so, the poor thing has missed out on Allegri, Palestrina, Byrd, Tallis, etc. Which is a terrible shame! Some wonderful music within a very sophisticated tradition of counterpoint.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 02:37 PM

You will note, GfS, that I said:

"If Bach wasn't 'flavor of the month' in many Catholic churches during his own lifetime, it was because he was a Lutheran. Not because he 'stacked forths.'"

The operational word that you pointed out is "eventually." Almost all of the older, mainline churches of various denominations use Bach's music in their sevices from time to time. That does not contradict anything that I said above.

Polyphony? Of course. J. S. Bach raised the art of the fugue and other polyphonic forms to intricacies that amaze musicians even today, especially in the fact that, even with their mathematical complexity, they retain, and often gain aesthetic quality.

By the way, every Sunday evening, Saint Mark's Cathedral (Episcopalian), about ten blocks north of where I live, conducts a Compline service, which is broadcast on KING-FM, Seattle. The music consists of a male choir singing Gregorian chants.

Also, in anticipation of forming a "Medieval Men's Choir" here in Seattle (there is already a Medieval Women's Choir here), Nancy Quensé, a long-time friend who sings with the women's choir told me about the new group forming and suggested that I might join it. I did, and attended several workshops on Gregorian chant and medieval music in general. In addition to singing in a choir, which I enjoyed when I attended the U. of W. School of Music, I learned a great deal in those workshops that could be applied to the singing of really old ballads. Unfortunately, due to time conflicts among the men in the group, the Medieval Men's Choir never got off the ground. Too bad! But it was a great learning experience for me.

So you see, I'm not exactly unacquainted with early liturgical music.

And as to your accusation that I corrected the errors in your post only to differ with you—GfS, you are not that important to me. Don't flatter yourself. But when you post misinformation, it should really be corrected by someone. I don't think anyone should confuse the innocent by posting misleading information just because they'd like to sound knowledgeable.

Now, back to our regular broadcast.

By the way, what are "stacked forths?"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 11:52 AM

Don, As usual, you went on a semi-literate diatribe, just to differ with me, but the fact is, liturgical music used in the Catholic Church, up till Bach, and even used today, up to even now, was the Gregorian Chants, though that has been changed since Bach. The chants were homo-phonic. Also Bach's music had the unique characteristic of having multiple 'melodies' going on, at the same time, which made up the chords. This in itself was quite revolutionary at the time....but I'm 'sure' you knew that, huh?

Also, 'Smexy' as explained is a cool term...sorta like 'sexy' and 'smarmy'...but I'd like to hear from 'DrugCrazed' if that's where is came from.

And one more point, some music, played well, and composed with certain things in mind, is FAR MORE spiritual, then many messages, heard or adhered to in churches!!..even today!


Reference to Bach, and polyphonic music. Note the words, 'The Church EVENTUALLY. ...."

When Jesus started his 'preaching' the FIRST place he went, was to the temples....and in like manner, certain music, done right, as per aforementioned, absolutely SHOULD be played in churches..and in auditoriums, and stereos, and on the street....whatever it takes, to get it into peoples ears, and into their hearts!...besides, a pithy tune, sent with well constructed lyrics, will roll around in someone's head, a lot longer, than a dry, doctrinal, sermon, which is soon forgotten, once the folks leave the church, and head for brunch!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:57 AM

Some say fiddlers should never darken the church door because they are playing the instrument of Saten!
   Proof here:
On the other hand some misguided souls believe that the fiddle is the only instrument that the devil will not touch because it forms the sign of the cross. There is also strong evidence that The Lord dances in time to the beat of the fiddle.
Here:


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

Smexy is a term I coined to denote things that are sexy without being sexual. It came from when me and my friend discovering a chord on the piano which we both decided that we should leave our girlfriends and marry this chord. They weren't particularly happy with that.

I mostly use it for things which are very attractive, but aren't a real person. So [insert attractive model's name here] is sexy, but the Faure Requiem is smexy.

I'M NOT WEIRD!


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM

Is smexy good? (And if that was a typo for sexy, I can't imagine how acoustics to match that description would make for particularly good listening.)


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 08:45 AM

Churches have smexy acoustics. Especially cathedrals. I'd gladly go and play/listen there any day.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:18 AM

I might add that I've performed medieval sacred music in a church as part of a service - if you can call the Cantigas de Santa Maria sacred. At the Morpeth Gathering one year I did a short set of stories of Saint Cuthbert (from Bede) as part of a Sunday service and had the congregation singing along with Gelineau Psalm 109 (110). As an Atheist I see no problem with this whatsoever; indeed, it was an honour to do so. I had the words of Ca' The Horse Me Marra printed up in the Order of Service and the congegation sang along with that too. Awesome!


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 06:09 AM

I take it that the reason it's 'churches' rather than just churches in Deckman's heading for this thread was because the objection is to all places of worship rather than churches as such - synagogues, mosques temples and so forth would all qualify for the thumbs down.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:25 AM

Just to add my 'pennorth: I've toured in America and New Zealand, where concerts in churches are not unusual. The acoustics are out of this world. For myself, I just love looking at churches, taking some unobtrusive photos and contemplating the peace and beauty, and it feels like I'm charging and refreshing my worn-out mental batteries again.

Churches are wonderful works of art wherever in the world they are, especially when you're attending a concert. I'd advise you to unblock your prejudices just a little, free your mind and enjoy!


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:41 AM

The point I was making is puritans and fun police wear many guises, not all of them clerical.


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Subject: RE: Public concerts in 'churches' ?
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 03:31 AM

Interesting stuff Don. The Catholic church specialized in polyphony, which puritans found too seductive for their taste. Who knows what message might be found in those interweaving voices? Like the black magic scares in contemporary rock music where some might hear 'set fire to your underwear' in a Motorhead lyric - that's if you can still find a turntable to play in reverse - the big collar guys knew the devil was in the detail.

Anyway, the reformation eventually bought us the marvel of unaccompanied three and four part harmony in shape notes which was abandoned by the rest of civilisation as 'unscientific' but hung on in the southern states to enlighten us all. For anyone interested in religion/belief's role in schooled singing I recommend Warren Steel and Richard Hulan's book "The Makers of the Sacred Harp".


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