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BS: Wall Street Protesters...

Related threads:
Occupy Wall Street Songs (33)
a song for Wall Street (6)
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Max 10 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM
beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM
Max 10 Nov 11 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,TIA 10 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM
beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM
Greg F. 10 Nov 11 - 02:44 PM
Greg F. 10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM
beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 02:28 PM
Max 10 Nov 11 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 02:06 PM
Greg F. 10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM
Bobert 10 Nov 11 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Nov 11 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Nov 11 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Nov 11 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,jts 10 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,999 10 Nov 11 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 11:12 AM
Bobert 10 Nov 11 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,beardedbruce 10 Nov 11 - 09:50 AM
GUEST 10 Nov 11 - 09:49 AM
dick greenhaus 10 Nov 11 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Nov 11 - 11:54 PM
Bobert 09 Nov 11 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Nov 11 - 11:02 PM
Bobert 09 Nov 11 - 10:02 PM
dick greenhaus 09 Nov 11 - 09:53 PM
Bobert 09 Nov 11 - 07:14 PM
Suffet 09 Nov 11 - 06:49 PM
Greg F. 09 Nov 11 - 06:47 PM
Lox 09 Nov 11 - 06:02 PM
dick greenhaus 09 Nov 11 - 05:36 PM
Lox 09 Nov 11 - 05:29 PM
Bobert 09 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM
Suffet 09 Nov 11 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 09 Nov 11 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,jts 09 Nov 11 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 09 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM
Greg F. 09 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 09 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM
Greg F. 09 Nov 11 - 01:52 PM
Stringsinger 09 Nov 11 - 01:50 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM

Gotta do it guys, its getting stupid. Thread closed. Keep your heads next time will you?

Greg and Bruce, if I find that the two of you are chasing each other around the threads bashing heads, I will have to get involved. Take it to email or meet in an alley somewhere, NOT MY SITE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM

Good post, Guest TIA. I agree with all of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:54 PM

I support freedom to believe and freedom to express.

Bruce, you're proving my theory that given enough time and words you can lose the favor of those who are agreeing with you.

Personally, I wouldn't let my mind go to "type of person" let alone write it into the historical record and sign it as you just did here. That's getting mighty close to argumentum ad hominem and an indication that you are running low on ammunition.

Then again, if this is the type of person who wastes their time in BS threads...


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM

From OccupyWallStreet.org:

{Note that this is not an official statement since we don't have officials. It is the opinion of one, but well spoken and widely endorsed and acted upon}

"The Occupy Movement has stated that it is Non-Violent. While this has remained overwhelmingly true, there is, undeniably, a violent element that is using OWS as a place to hide. Smashed windows, paint on buildings, and even horrifically violent stories of rape are coming out of the encampments.

The truth of it is that once any kind of violent element emerges from the movement, the movement ceases to be about stopping corruption and greed and becomes a movement about stopping violence. This simply must be the case. People will look at the violence within our movement and point to it in order to damn us. Therefore, when violence happens from the movement, we must pause and deal with it before we do anything else.

What this means is that there must be an expectation of self enforcement. We have little difficulty standing in front of a police barricade and shouting "Shame Shame Shame" to Police officers who overstep their bounds, and abuse their power. What we haven't come to realize is that we too have power that we can abuse, and some of us do abuse that power.

The moment a person engages in a violent act, they are no longer part of the movement. They are part of the problem. Even more then that, they are the most important problem. If you have gathered in order to protest a banking institution, or a government official, that protest ceases and you should begin protesting against their violent act, instantly. You should be accepting that the protest is capable of changing in this regard, as internal violence is even more dangerous than external violence.

If you see someone spraying paint on the side of a building, you should stop and begin crying "Shame Shame Shame" at them. Whip out those video cameras. Condemn their Violence. Do not allow them to hide in our numbers.

Go even farther. Give the videos of the individuals who do violence to the Police. Report the violence to the media outlets directly. Show those institutions how hard we are working to destroy violence internally. Build a trust between yourselves and those who enforce and report on these things.


Go even farther. Publicly condemn all violence done by your movement, and by others to your movement. This should be topic one in all General Assemblies; to create a statement that you can give to all media outlets condemning the violence done. This should be done every single time a violent act happens that is even remotely connected to the movement. We must show the world that we are entirely intolerant of violence, in all forms. We must show the world that we are more then willing to work with them in order to shine a light on our own internal violence.

Go Even Farther. Set up a working group to educate people about what Non-Violence is. Create a Library filled with works that show Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Make us the primary source of Non-Violent Education.

This movement cannot become perceived as a violent movement. That should be the number one goal, before anything else. Violence is catalyzing and shocking. We need to respond to it with equal fervour, while remaining entirely Non-Violent. We must be able to stand our ground and say to those who detract "We have worked hard with Police Officials and Media outlets to destroy our own violence. We have released statement after statement condemning each individual act of violence. We have turned violent offenders over to Police Officials, and made those people known to all. What more would you like?"

If we are to say we are Non-Violent, we must fight to prove it."


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM

Your apology is NOT accepted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:44 PM

APOLOGIES TO BEARDIE!

I CONFUSED HIM WITH HIS FELLOW-TRAVELLER PDQ, and I freely admit my error.

HOWEVER, his comparing OWS with the KLAN is STILL idiotic and uncalled for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM

For Max and Beardie's benefit, from the archives:

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:28 PM

Very well, Max. But Gred F has crossed the line, bigtime. This is an outright lie, as can be seen by the thead in question THAT I DID NOT POST TO until today.


If this is the kind of person who encourages supporting OWS, I fail to see why ANYONE should give them any support whatsoever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Max
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:23 PM

Elves don't like to be told what to do, just an FYI, especially by folks that are not logged in. Gets them cranky.

And why would you want it removed? It so clearly shows what he is, so I feel like we should leave it as a warning for the next person that engages him. Truly, though, I would hope it would convince them NOT to engage him.

I just popped in because I its getting around that the klan was being discussed in the Wall Street thread and I just had to see how that connection was made. As a student of thread creep this one intrigued me.

I see now. You know, anything is possible when you inject some idiocy. I'm disappointed because I assumed that 2 out of 3 of you folks here were bigger and better than being drawn in like that.

Carry on, just know that these such flammable topics are aloft and to tread lightly so we don't have so much work to do back here in the shop. It's tiring to clean up all that spilled garbage, and idiots always clog our shop vac.

We have to watch this stupid thread now, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:18 PM

sorry, computer went haywire.

Bobert, I suggest you curb your dog, Greg F. If he continues to make such false claims, it will detract from the purpose of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:13 PM

Greg F's comment is an out and out lie, and shows what kind of a person he is.

MUDELF= Please remove Greg F.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:06 PM

"Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er."

Care to show that, or do I ask you to removed from Mudcat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM

BB, comparing the actions of the KKK with the actions of OWS indicates that your 'sense of proportion' seems to be a bit outta whack...

"Bit outta whack", Bobert?? Hardly. It shows that he's a complete and utter frackin' IDIOT to propound somethindg so absurd.

Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er.

Gimmie a break.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:43 PM

Bobert, AS I POINTED OUT,

The OWS is being co-opted by small groups that ARE NOT NON-VIOLENT!!!

I am sure there were segregationists that were non-violent- Can YOU remember any? THAT is what the OWS will become, when you propose intimidation of those you disagree with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM

Bobert

Here's the score:

YOU blame the right for lynchings- "Y'all"

YOU call the Tea Party Racist.

YOU are proposing the same kind of actions that the Klan used- thus YOU have the problem, not me.

If you blame me for lynchings, I will blame you for YOUR OWN CALLS FOR ACTION in violation of the law.

Cappish?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:38 PM

Okay, bruce... Here's the deal...

The Klan has a 130 year history of violence and murder...

OWS is non violent...

Any more illogical arguments???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:33 PM

CORRECTION!: Corzine 'lost' $663 Million, not $600 million.(besides corruptly screwing the people of New Jersey out of BILLIONS, while he was governor)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:08 PM

OH!!...and there's a lot more!!!...but to minimize this bullshit down to the 'Klan' vs. the treatment of the OWS crowd, is a best, absolute asshole nonsense!! The 'so-called left' will shift the REAL issues into these microbial 'hate' and emotional topics...then try to slam you, with rhetoric, portraying those who have their fingers on the pulse, with being 'socially unjust'!!! WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 12:50 PM

Bearded Bruce: "...I consider that BOTH the Klan and the SEIU , when they overstep the boundaries of the law, should be arrested and charged. If either stays within the law, they should not be arrested, no matter how I disagree with them. Intimidation in support of something I agree with is still intimidation.

Yet it seems many here do not agree with that."

I fully agree!..Not only that, the FAILURE or 'purposeful ignoring' of looking at the 'Corzine Corruption' where $600 MILLION was 'lost'; the Solyndra fraud, $535 million, and Solyndra executives were awarded quarterly bonuses worth up to $60,000 apiece earlier this year as the California solar-panel company headed for bankruptcy, Beacon Power Corp. @ $43 million; Jeff Immelt, being named 'Jobs Czar', and given $550 Billion to start jobs in CHINA!.. (as he dodges paying taxes here, 'Fast and Furious' to supply guns for the administrations drug buddies;....while 'funded protestors' march around the country wanting their 'debts forgiven'(Though I do agree that SOME attention has been called to the Wall Street/political corruption abuses); The Fed passing out TRILLIONS of taxpayer backed loan handouts all over the world, and NOT disclosing where, or to who; corporate bailouts, in the TRILLIONS(by both parties;........and people who 'like' THIS administration because they are Democrats make stupid lame excuses for them, WHILE ALLEGEDLY 'supporting' their bitches!!!????....
What a bunch of LAME, hypocritical, phony, bullshitters!!!!!!

It's time to get to the root cause, folks!...and quit making asses of yourselves!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM

." In fact there are tens of thousands of examples of them getting away with much much worse."


Which YOU imply , by claiming special rules for those you support, would be ok as long as you agree with their goals.



MY point is that in order to apply the law to others it has to apply to YOU as well. If you want to have exceptions for what YOU like, you have no right to complain when others get those exceptions because someone supports what THEY like.

Not a matter of MY like or dislike, but one of fairness. Would YOU like the KKK to decide what is or is not intimidation? I WOULD NOT- Therefore, I do not want YOU deciding that the law only applies to those you dislike.

As to my choice of the Klan as an example, it was Bobert who declared ME responsible for lynchings- so when you get him to apologize, I can stop comparing what he advocates to the Klan. Until then, when he advocates the same tactics, or allows them to be used to support HIS cause without complaint I will call him on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 12:31 PM

jts,

How many of YOUR relatives have had their homes or stores burned out by a racist mob, and then been told that they had the wrong skin color to get any government aid to rebuild??


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM

Bruce, I can't ever recall an example of a Klan member ever being arrested and charged for just standing on someone's lawn. In fact there are tens of thousands of examples of them getting away with much much worse. Do you think that boy was in danger of a lynching? Was there property damage from a burning cross, with the treat of lynching? Was a rock thrown through the window with the implied threat of lynching? Were little girls firebombed in their church? I didn't think so.

Don't immediately end this line of argument because it is racist and offensive. Which it is. Knock it off because it makes you look like and insensitive idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM

The arrest of the two OWS was IMO wrong.

The FAILURE to arrest the SEIU who intimidated the 14 year old son of a BoA VP in his home is also, IMO wrong.

999, Are you saying that there should be one set of laws that apply to those you agree with, and another that apply to those you disagree with???

I consider that BOTH the Klan and the SEIU , when they overstep the boundaries of the law, should be arrested and charged. If either stays within the law, they should not be arrested, no matter how I disagree with them. Intimidation in support of something I agree with is still intimidation.

Yet it seems many here do not agree with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 11:45 AM

"The problem here is one of changing an entire national conversation and without the OSW movement a billion letters and door knocking won't do that... OWS is out here loosening up the propaganda filled minds and that is long overdue..."

Well said, Bobert.

#########################################

BB, comparing the actions of the KKK with the actions of OWS indicates that your 'sense of proportion' seems to be a bit outta whack I think. It's just a slur and not a comparison. Address instead the photographers in the street without permits to be there and the arrest of two OWS supporters who by accident put foot on the street. Don't that seem just a bit more outta whack to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 11:12 AM

Bobert,

So, if the Klan decides to demonstrate around someone's house and family because they do not like what someone in that house is doing ( such as civil rights work) YOU would think it ok???


I see an attempt to frighten and intimidate in BOTH cases Klan and OWS. And BOTH are wrong, when that line ( of property) is crossed. The difference between the SEIU actions and those of a Klan mob are in the color of the costumes. I recall several cases in the 60's of Klan being escorted by local ( sympathetic ) police to rallies intended to intimidate those that they disagreed with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 11:06 AM

It's not really about that at all, bruce...

In law there is a concept of "proportion"... It's used all the time in plea bargains where charges are dropped because they are very minor compared to the larger ones... That's why the law isn't this "black and white" institution where every discretion must be prosecuted to the fullest extent... Lawyers and prosecutors alike fully understand this concept...

Here in Charlotte we had an example of misuse of the "letter of the law" where two OWSers were arrested for accidentally stepping off the sidewalk and their feet touched the gutter below... They didn't mean to do but the crowd was so packed that it kinda inadvertently pushed them off the sidewalk... At the very same time there were dozens of news photographers in the street taking pictures of the demonstrations who had no permits to be in the streets who were not so much as asked by the police to get out of the street???

Yo, dick...

I do both... I have worked campaigns in the past and will again... I write my letters to newspapers and congressmen... The problem here is one of changing an entire national conversation and without the OSW movement a billion letters and door knocking won't do that... OWS is out here loosening up the propaganda filled minds and that is long overdue...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 10:58 AM

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150501128491978&set=a.10150486879871978.457516.705211977&type=1&theater


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:50 AM

sorry, above was me




Bobert,

If you violate the law, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. If it worth doing, that should not stop you- BUT don't complain when the law is applied.

As I keep saying, the vast majority of OWS are well meaning, peaceful, concerned individuals- BUT there are those that will take advantage of them to advance their own agendas- ON BOTH SIDES. Your continuous bitching about he right, and your unreasonable statements about lynchings will do more to reduce support for your point of view than to encourage it.

How many of YOUR relatives have had their homes or stores burned out by a racist mob, and then been told that they had the wrong skin color to get any government aid to rebuild??


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:49 AM

Bobert,

If you violate the law, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. If it worth doing, that should not stop you- BUT don't complain when the law is applied.

As I keep saying, the vast majority of OWS are well meaning, peaceful, concerned individuals- BUT there are those that will take advantage of them to advance their own agendas- ON BOTH SIDES. Your continuous bitching about he right, and your unreasonable statements about lynchings will do more to reduce support for your point of view than to encourage it.

How many of YOUR relatives have had their homes or stores burned out by a racist mob, and then been told that they had the wrong skin color to get any government aid to rebuild??


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:34 AM

Bobert-Go ahead. Drum them into capitulation. I'd rather round up votes and help regulate the greedy bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 11:54 PM

That's what you get for thinking down, all the time!!!

I'm fine.....and not taken in by all the bullshit...you should have known that, by now!..

GfS

Maybe you can imagine a life without the political bullshit....(yikes!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 11:12 PM

More "Life sucks, get over, there is nothing you can do"...

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 11:02 PM

What a BIG distraction from the REAL story! The OWS crowd has everyone siding with their antic, instead of getting to the root of the source..and of course, the 'politicos' are tying to make such big 'hay' over it....and the story really boils down, and lays at the feet of the 'Fed', Goldman Sachs...and the corrupt bullshit foisted on the American people, either side, and both, to convince them of reasons how to rifle every buck they can steal from the taxpayers...even to the extent of fucking the economy....to be evenly paired with the poorest of nations...while the guys in charge,(a corporate/political cabal) live like kings, and dictate to their loyal followers to look, and blame every one else but them!..............SUCKERS!

GfS

Oh, and P.S......when asked to participate....all I can say is This
Enjoy!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 10:02 PM

No, dick.... Wall Street is the perfect "Bad Guy"... It is responsible for how American business works and it ain't working for average Americans... It's working for the rich and the rich only... Wall Street and their buddies are sitting on $2T in cash that they won't invest in America... They use every excuse except "My dog ate my homework"... Reality is that this $$$ is going to open new businesses overseas and dump more American worker's jobs...

No, dick... Wall Street is the correct target...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 09:53 PM

What the popular movement did in Ohio worked. Looking at Bobert's list of objectives, I applaud them all, but nobody on Wall Street (which is what OWS is occupying) is either willing nor capable of advancing those objectives. Sort of like screaming at your mailman because you got fired from your job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 07:14 PM

there is a reason why OWS isn't going to put forth 100 page "white papers" of policy, dick...

Then it turns the turf over the oligarchs who will us their vast wealth to twist details and then movement is over... Don't look for that... We are telling you what is wrong... Ya'll come up with some ideas that ya'll can argue over... If after ya'll fight over the meaning of the word "is" is then put your ideas out...

Here are the major beefs that OWS has:

1. Public financing for elections - no exceptions, no loopholes, no PACs, no Citizens United...

2. Income disparity - 10% can't control 90% of the wealth... That is not healthy...

3. Accountability (arrests and imprisonment) of Wall Street crooks...

4. Jobs, jobs, jobs (in the United States)...

5. Affordable college education...

Thems is just the basics...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 06:49 PM

Heard today at Occupy Wall Street, Zuccotti Park, New York City:

Mic check!

Mic check!

See this man.

See this man.

He is the one.

He is the one.

Who has been stealing.

Who has been stealing.

From the donation box.

From the donation box.

Remember him.

Remember him.

He is not to be trusted.

He is not to be trusted.

Thank you.

Thank you.

OWS security volunteers then escorted the man from the park.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 06:47 PM

Come on, bruce... You are smarter than this argument...

Obviously, NOT.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 06:02 PM

Dick - they're talking- they're discussing ideas - and they are responsible for a global discussion on these issues that is completely unprecedented.

Ideas are the key.

We rely on ideas.

Money is just a shared idea, as is law, and democracy, and human rights, the existence of nation states, property etc etc.

Ideas, like videos and songs, can go viral if they resonate with people.

There is an idea taking hold in popular consciousness that we don't really live in a democracy, but that our lives are dictated by a small bunch of reckless and selfish oligarchs.

People are talking about how to deal with it.

At some point a critical mass may be reached and for all our sakes lets hope that the sanest ideas win the battle of natural selection in peoples minds - because the list of alternatives could include disorder on a scale that makes the london riots look like a school trip.

This isn't about what you or I think is ideologically sound, or what you and I agree is a more or less effective tool of change.

This is about recognizing that something is different about the way people are behaving.

They are not content to just protest and go home after receiving a few shallow assurances - they are going to hang on while the idea slowly takes root that we can and must change the status quo and reassert our right to genuine democratic power, and they are going to hang on until the inevitable gravity of a sustained protest draws enough people so that a critical mass is achieved - at which point something will happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 05:36 PM

Frank--
I get it, though I'm not at all sure you do. THe Ohio protests were about something that could be remedied ---and was. OWS is very effective in letting people know that they're angry and unhappy; I can't really see what else they're accomplishing. All that anger, and all those people should be able to make changes if they direct their energy toward making those changes, rather than bitching about how unfairly they're treated (which they definitely are.)
Since we're not going to see a real revolution in the US in any of our lifetimes, developing political muscle is apt to be the only effective way to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 05:29 PM

The simple fact is this.

Nobody, ever in the history of the world, ever gave away political power.

Power has always been won in some sort of struggle, whether through non-violent non-cooperation, Unions and strikes, wars of independence, or revolutions.

Right now it can be said that the power lies in the hands of those with the money and their friends in congress, who coincidentally have money.

This is called corporatocracy - in the old days it was called feudalism.

The people want an equal share of power and they want proper remuneration for helping venture capitalists to build their businesses.

These things will not be given to them freely, they will have to be taken.

The tea party poses no threat to the ruling class of America, so there was no suppression.

OWS represents a threat to the ruling classes monopoly on power and resources and it is being resisted violently.

The fact is folks that this is about the people taking their political power back.

It will be a struggle. The power and the money will be guarded selfishly by those who possess them and they will do whatever it takes to protect their assetts.

The US government has shot its own people before on numerous occasions and chances are it will happen again. Native Americans, African Americans, Union activists, anti vietnam protesters, LBJ - how many kids have you killed today ... etc ...

But this time things are different.

This time there is social media - it undermines the propaganda machine and it undermines attempts to keep us divided and isolated.

"You will not be able to stay home brother,
you will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out,
you will not be able to lose yourself on skag
and skip out for beer during commercials because
the revolution will not be televised brother".


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM

Wall Street buys US government = Protester stepping on someone's lawn???

Come on, bruce... You are smarter than this argument...

Nice post, Steve...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 03:41 PM

Greetings:

Any movement that seriously challenges the established power structure must be ready to both take and to inflict casualties. Unless you are an absolute pacifist -- and very few people are -- you would consider adopting nonviolence for tactical and strategic reasons, not because it is a way of life. Most people believe there are times when organized violence is both justifiable and necessary. But they also believe those times are few and far between. That is essentially what Jefferson was saying when he wrote these words in the Declaration of Independence:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

What nonviolent activists like Gandhi and King have shown is that there are many options between passively suffering evil and resorting to armed struggle. If we Americans, as a people, accept Jefferson's argument that there are times when insurrectionary violence is justified, then there surely must be times when resistance short of violence is also justified. Such resistance will be organized, sustained, unpleasant, often illegal, but nevertheless nonviolent. That time has already arrived! Fortunately, the time for armed resistance has not yet come, and one hopes it never will. But it very well might.

In the meantime, let's not shed any tears for bankers whose front lawns get trampled. The little bitty "violence" that some union activists have inflicted upon a few blades is grass means absolutely nothing compared to the very real violence they have inflicted upon millions of their fellow human beings by driving them from their homes. Just remember that when the bankers foreclose a mortgage and evict a family, they have the armed might of the state at their disposal to enforce their so-called legal process.

Also remember that many successful nonviolent movements have worked in tandem, either openly or tacitly, with those who rejected nonviolence but who shared the same goals. For example, the nonviolent civil rights workers in the mid-1960s, often received the protection of the armed Deacons for Defense and Justice. Another example is the African National Congress in South Africa, which organized many nonviolent protests against apartheid, both large and small, but which also had an armed wing called Umkhonto we Sizwe, and which carried out guerilla warfare against the South African regime.

For the Occupy movement to organize its own Umkhonto we Sizwe at this time would be a terrible blunder, one that would turn people off and play right into the hands of those who would like nothing better than an excuse to obliterate the movement. But don't presume that the time can never come. And if it does, a lot more than a lawn or two will get trampled.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 03:08 PM

jts,

The SEIU demonstrators, which are what Guest TIA was referring to, WERE given immunity- AND A POLICE ESCORT TO PROTECT THEM. The juresdiction that they went to was not even notified.

I warned Bobert that there were those who had a different agenda, and would co-opt the OWS movement if they could. SEIU has demonstrated that they do NOT abide by the rules that Bobert is saying apply- and WHEN (not if) there are violations, it will be OWS, and not the Union thugs, that get the blame.


"
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 10:27 AM

"surround their houses but stay off their manicured lawns."

And that is within bounds- BUT not what the SEIU did to the BoA VP's family.

As long as the property is not trespassed on, and people physically threatened, I have no problem with protestors demonstrating."


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 02:56 PM

He may or may not be an ass, but it was pretty funny. You clearly implied that the the protesters has the same immunity from the law as the bankers. Ie that they were not being cited for the same reason that the bankers were not prosecuted for fraud. I doubt that was your intent. That is what makes it so funny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM

Greggie,

Are you REALLY stupid, or just an ass?


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM

none have been in the case of the bankers and Wall Street firms

Now, THAT is the most hilarious thing I've read in a LONG time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM

Guest TIA,
No citations were issued, nor arrests. JUst as none have been in the case of the bankers and Wall Street firms- so I take it you object to the OWS complaining since there were no arrests to justify them?????


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 01:52 PM

Asking Beardie to produce citations, references or facts is a fool's errand- as should be patently obvious to anyone with even a limited recollection of his past posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 01:50 PM

Dick, with all due respect, you don't get it. There are many issues that are intertwined and a single issue doesn't mean anything. Leadership is everyone, not just one ego-driven politician or speaker that hops in front of the parade.

If you really dig, you'll find out why this movement is so powerful and why it doesn't need a bumper sticker or sound byte.

The 1% control Bilderbergers, the Military Industrial Complex, the Media, the War Contractors, the corporate control of congress and the senate and the two parties,
the diversionary red-herring called deficit reduction which translated is robbing the public and penalizing the poor as well as the destruction of labor unions. Anybody who is awake knows what the OWS is about.

It ain't about Goldman Sachs or Timothy Geithner. Obama better put on his sneakers.


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