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BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp

Related threads:
BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway? (223)
BS: security concerns about Norway shooting (142)


Lox 25 Jul 11 - 09:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jul 11 - 01:08 PM
Penny S. 24 Jul 11 - 12:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jul 11 - 12:43 PM
Rapparee 24 Jul 11 - 12:21 PM
akenaton 24 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM
Mrrzy 24 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM
akenaton 24 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Allan Conn 24 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM
GUEST 24 Jul 11 - 06:33 AM
Lox 24 Jul 11 - 05:49 AM
mg 24 Jul 11 - 02:57 AM
katlaughing 24 Jul 11 - 02:37 AM
bfdk 24 Jul 11 - 02:12 AM
Bill D 23 Jul 11 - 09:32 PM
Donuel 23 Jul 11 - 08:47 PM
Rapparee 23 Jul 11 - 07:27 PM
Little Robyn 23 Jul 11 - 07:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM
Jack Campin 23 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM
Mrrzy 23 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie 23 Jul 11 - 04:21 PM
SINSULL 23 Jul 11 - 02:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 02:04 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 02:03 PM
Jack Campin 23 Jul 11 - 01:58 PM
mayomick 23 Jul 11 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,josepp 23 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie 23 Jul 11 - 01:32 PM
VirginiaTam 23 Jul 11 - 01:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 12:52 PM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 12:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 11:58 AM
Teribus 23 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM
bobad 23 Jul 11 - 11:50 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM
Teribus 23 Jul 11 - 11:03 AM
Donuel 23 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM
Lox 23 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 10:52 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM
Lox 23 Jul 11 - 10:50 AM
Lox 23 Jul 11 - 10:41 AM
Jack the Sailor 23 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:46 AM

McGrath,

A psychopath is a person who is defined roughly as someone who is disconnected from any sense of empathy or understanding of the emotions of others.

Psychopaths are often intelligent and appear otherwise balanced, though they are without exception deeply narcissistic and motivated by selfish interests.

This guy fits that profile pretty comfortably.

The right wing connection aspect is a concern, but his behaviour clearly goes beyond the bounds of a healthy mental state.

All those who wish to excuse or to explain his actions via political considerations are deluded in the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:08 PM

On which basis much of Europe for much of the 20th century have to be judged as mad. Just for as start.

Possibly true. But not really a useful definition of madness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:59 PM

Logical, maybe. But in my book rationality demands a recognition of the realities of the world, and of the reality of other people.

He is clearly intelligent. He is capable of planning something effectively. I don't think that makes him not-mad.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:43 PM

What does "deranged" mean? And how is it relevant? This was clearly a very well planned action carried out by someone who remarkably well organised, highly articulate, and completely rational. Like so many other Nazis before him - and others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:21 PM

The mad, like the poor, will always be with us. The poor are far easier to identify and do something for than the mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM

Sorry wrong thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM

There is an open thread on the Who did it part. I'd like to bring this thread back to how awful it is for the Norwegians, and see how they will become more open in response to this atrocity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

I think Teribus has it about right. To start with, the guy must have been seriously deranged to perpetrate such an atrocity.

Secondly he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt.
(Please dont try to mis-represent that statement)

As western economies worsen and living standards, pension rights, public services come under further attack,expect to see a backlash against the policies pursued by goverments in Western Europe over the last couple of decades.

Perhaps we may yet see Mr Powells "rivers of blood".....I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

Even at that the you are being a bit gentle on his figures. The CIA figures actually give the population of the country as only 4.691 million and Oslo at 875,000 (not the 600,000 originally quoted here) so at 1.8% of the country's population that gives a maximum 84,6000 Moslems and if they all lived in Oslo it would make it only 9.66% Moslem. If the figures quoted by the CIA site are correct of course.

The BBC seemed to initially be making a big thing about Islam being the second biggest religion in the country. It was stated more than several times. I imagine if we treat all the different forms of Christianity as one religion then Islam will be the second religion in virtually every European country. Something so normal doesn't seem to be so newsworthy!

SORRY THAT WAS ME


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:33 AM

"25% of 600,000 is 150,000. So even if every Muslim in Norway was an immigrant and they all lived Oslo, you would be off by more than a third."

Even at that the you are being a bit gentle on his figures. The CIA figures actually give the population of the country as only 4.691 million and Oslo at 875,000 (not the 600,000 originally quoted here) so at 1.8% of the country's population that gives a maximum 84,6000 Moslems and if they all lived in Oslo it would make it only 9.66% Moslem. If the figures quoted by the CIA site are correct of course.

The BBC seemed to initially be making a big thing about Islam being the second biggest religion in the country. It was stated more than several times. I imagine if we treat all the different forms of Christianity as one religion then Islam will be the second religion in virtually every European country. Something so normal doesn't seem to be so newsworthy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:49 AM

Right mg

Norway (and Britain) should Arm their police, like they do in your country, and our murder rate would be more like yours right?

Thanks you can keep it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:57 AM

Sorry..but one thing could have stopped him and that would have been a sniper's bullet before 85 or 98 or however many people died. And granted, it was an island, and they couldn't find a boat (in Norway? Near an island?). But they say most police in Norway are unarmed. That is what happens. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:37 AM

Donuel, well written. Thanks for sharing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bfdk
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:12 AM

Twisted mind


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:32 PM

It pays to follow some links before assuming and speculating too much!"

http://kleinverzet.blogspot.com/2011/07/thought-and-prayer.html


"[UPDATE001] There is a vicious rumour going around that Fjordman is the Oslo shooter named Anders Breivik. Sites like LGF are gleefully running with this.

IT IS NOT TRUE!

From Gates of Vienna:
I was in conversation with Fjordman all day today, starting before the shootings, during the slaughter, and afterwards. If he was shooting up Utřya, he was doing an amazing job of communicating with his friends the whole time, even after he was thrown in a jail cell."


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:47 PM

The opinions of all of us turn to anger. We yelled the killer is Muslim, no the killer is Jewish, no the killer is Christian, no the killer is right wing extremist. And we are lost, bickering among ourselves.

With all the reflection of research with science and religious study, justice will never satisfy; we fall into a loneliness and depression, and feel we can no longer cry.

His guns can light up the world. When he shoots he does not feel powerless. Still he feels every insult that's hurled. He thinks he has everything to gain if you could feel his pain and that is why he is so dangerous.

We will point to patterns of hate and we'll try to accept our fate but no one or thing will change the fight of the bestial proud predator in the man who believes he is Right.





Stilly river sage, you were exemplary in witholding characterizations so kudos to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:27 PM

Being left- or right- leaning politically makes it no more excusable than Hitler or Stalin was...or Timothy McVeigh or the Provos or the mob who killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith in Carthage, Illinois or the state militia gunning down strikers in the Pullman Strike or the Peterborough Massacre or....

I hope that we can learn from this individual what makes him tick and in that way hope to prevent such carnage in the future. Unfortunately, I don't believe can prevent such, not in this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Little Robyn
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:13 PM

I believe one of the missing is a Kiwi girl who has dual citizenship.
The kids were not only from all over Norway but all over the world.
One angry, misguided individual can harm so many innocents.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM

"There seems to be far too much material linked to by "Fjordman" for it all to have one author."

What i linked to is supposed to be all of his stuff, just a few pieces a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM

There seems to be far too much material linked to by "Fjordman" for it all to have one author.

The BBC just said his Facebook page used to list his interests as bodybuilding and Freemasonry, so the regalia probably were Masonic after all.

The Beeb also says Facebook took his page down. I wonder if they've shredded his friend list as well.

The BBC's coverage this evening was some of the most disgusting stuff I've ever heard them come out with. Dredging up right-wing ideologues to say that Norway needs to impose immigration controls to stop this happening again. I didn't hear the media saying the US ought to have just given Al-Queda whatever they wanted after 9/11, did you? But when a blonde Nazi perpetrates a massacre, they blame the victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM

He may have been anti-moslem but he attacked liberals, and he went after their children. Old school, that.

Thanks for the bullet point info!

Man alive. Those poor, poor families. That poor King and on down who will feel responsible when there was nothing to be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM

Are you saying he is not Fjordman?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:21 PM


Here are some of the writings of the killer. A hater of Muslims A lover of Zionism
(JtS)

According to the information in the German news this statement is wrong. B. has quoted some of these writings approvingly but isn't the author.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:28 PM

My prayers are with the families of those lost in both attacks. Also with the survivors who will relive the day sometimes when they least expect it.
Such a tragedy.
Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:04 PM

A lot of conspiracy sights are saying that he is a mason. The masons I know are good people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:03 PM

Thank you Mayomick.

Mr. Weiss in that article has said what I have been trying to say. He is a lot more eloquent on that topic than I. And since he is a Jew, and NOT a Zionist, perhaps he is a source that Bobad will more readily accept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:58 PM

One of the pictures released of Breivik shows him wearing an odd outfit with blue-and-white sash and apron, vaguely Masonic in style (but not elaborate enough to actually be Masonic).

That must be the insignia of some organization. Anybody know what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:44 PM

A day before the atrocity on the island of Utoya , Labour Youth delegates at the summer camp had held a Palestine solidarity event there.


http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/the-norway-massacre-and-the-nexus-of-islamophobia-and-right-wing-zionism.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM

According to an article I just read, the most he can receive for this crime is 21 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:32 PM

7.5 % Muslims living in Oslo county (source: Wikipedia with links to Norwegian statistics office). The percentage in Oslo town is likely to be higher.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:28 PM

There are many broken people in the world, historically and currently.

Some one said in early post "amorphous enemy." That enemy is every broken person, bred from ignorance and fed on fear and hate.

Sadly the media does play a part in the broken person's ideologies and actions.

I am more inclined to atheism now, but I still think the idea and example of Christ is right. Just as the idea and example of Allah is right. It is the broken person's misapplication that is the problem.

So what is the cure? I take my cue from deities in which I do not believe. Love and forgiveness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:52 PM

You said that I implied something on this thread. Back it up or reveal yourself to be a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM

Can't pass up any opportunity for a little Jew bashing, can we Jack?
Oh, I know it's not the Jews, it's the State of Israel or it's the government of Israel or it's Zionism, right...nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Of all the possible causes this deluded individual had for his actions you have declared it to be his support of Zionism.

You have an obsession Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM

When I first saw the photos of the bombing and heard all of this, I thought it was like Tim McVeigh and David Koresh rolled into one. I deleted it out of an earlier post because it seemed to soon to give any characterization, but it still feels like a germane reading of the events. I wonder how much of what happened there was influenced by homegrown terror activities like we had in the US?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

Then obviously you are ready.

Point it out.

The implication was an but an inference. It is in your head only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

"If you can point to one place where I implicated Zionist in general please point it out."

Ha, ha....I was waiting for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:06 PM

>>Jack is telling us that it is his support of Zionism that motivated him to commit this atrocity. By implication he is saying that this is the type of thing that supporters of Zionism are disposed to doing. What proof does he have of this? It can just as easily be said that he was motivated by his belief in Christianity or his support of a right wing ideology. I think this tells us more about Jack than the perpetrator. <<

I am implying no such thing. I am talking about this man's motivations. If you can point to one place where I implicated Zionist in general please point it out.

I think this tells us more about Bobad than we would like to know. And it saddens me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:58 AM

Teribus, I used CIA fact book, because I thought it would be a source you would respect.

When you have something more concrete than "I heard some guy say it on the Radio" I'll listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM

OK Jack as long as you are happy, I mean WTF would the guy being interviewed know, he has after all only lived and worked in Norway all his life most likely born and brought up in Oslo. - You tell it like it is Jack.

CIA Fact Book if I used that as a reference in any of our discussions you'd laugh me off the planet.

CIA Fact Book will be how far out of date?

CIA Fact will only detail and mirror official figures handed them by the Norwegian Government, any illegal, unregistered aliens where you live Jack? Here in the UK we do not have the foggiest notion of how many illegal aliens are within our borders.

1.8% Muslim only known IF THEY HAVE REGISTERED THEIR RELIGION

Your CIA FACT BOOK only has an estimated population for 2010

My biggest concern at the moment is keeping in touch with a friend whose daughter and friend were on the island.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:50 AM

Jack is telling us that it is his support of Zionism that motivated him to commit this atrocity. By implication he is saying that this is the type of thing that supporters of Zionism are disposed to doing. What proof does he have of this? It can just as easily be said that he was motivated by his belief in Christianity or his support of a right wing ideology. I think this tells us more about Jack than the perpetrator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

According to the CIA fact book 1.8 % of Norway is Muslim.

1.8% of a total population of 5 million is about 90,000

25% of 600,000 is 150,000. So even if every Muslim in Norway was an immigrant and they all lived Oslo, you would be off by more than a third.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:03 AM

I was asked a question:

"Are you saying that 25% of the people in Oslo are Muslim immigrants?2

Something like that, I know that about 14 years ago it was just below 20% and initial commentators when asked to speculate mentioned the 25% figure. Oslo is the largest centre of population in Norway with about 600,000 people but they are very spread out (Oslo holds two characteristics as a Capital City it has one of the smallest populations but in terms of size and area is one of the largest in Europe)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM

Yes I read a number of his blogs, which is why I wrote the lyrics which apply to me, you and him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM

Have done so Jack,

Position clarified :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:52 AM

Earlier in the tread I posted a link to the man's writings. If you read that, I think that you will see where I am coming from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM

"we should be worrying about Islamophobia"

I am discussing hatred of Muslims and support of Zionism as the likely motivation for the crimes. I am sorry that I do not know how to do that in a way that pleases you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:50 AM

Sorry Jack,

I appear to have made a mistake in responding to your post.

This is because it isn't clear how much of what was written was taken from the killer, or if any of it was added by you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:41 AM

Thank you Jack.

You have presented us with some interesting viewpoints on the subject of your opinion of the Israel/Palestine question and on your opinion about the motivations of people who sympathize with Palestinians.

All very interesting.

However, my interest is in the recent atrocities in Norway, which is the reason why I am posting to this thread.

I noted lots of comments about Moslems.

I would like to know how Moslems are supposed to be connected to the Atrocities in Norway.

So far nobody has provided a connection, except that the Tall Blonde Norwegian guy who was caught, allegedly hates Moslems.


ie - we have a wacko Islamophobe venting his hatred on kids.



So I'll repeat - why are we discussing Moslems? When on this issue, we should be worrying about Islamophobia?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

Norwegian news from Thursday

This is certainly an indication that the attack was not an Islamic Jihad.

Quite the opposite, I would think.


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