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BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp

Related threads:
BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway? (223)
BS: security concerns about Norway shooting (142)


Jim Carroll 06 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 11 - 04:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 11 - 03:43 PM
Teribus 06 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 11 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 11 - 04:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 11 - 04:01 AM
akenaton 05 Aug 11 - 08:34 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 11 - 04:10 PM
Joe Offer 04 Aug 11 - 06:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,English Martyr 04 Aug 11 - 05:26 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM
akenaton 04 Aug 11 - 03:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 11 - 12:04 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 12:03 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 11 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 11 - 11:07 AM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 11 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 11 - 09:05 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Aug 11 - 07:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 11 - 06:46 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 11 - 04:57 AM
akenaton 04 Aug 11 - 04:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 11 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 11 - 04:10 AM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 10:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 11 - 09:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 11 - 08:07 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 11 - 03:53 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 03:44 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 11 - 03:39 PM
Penny S. 03 Aug 11 - 02:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 11 - 02:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 12:25 PM
Ebbie 03 Aug 11 - 12:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 12:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 11 - 11:56 AM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 11 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 11 - 05:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 03 Aug 11 - 04:55 AM
Penny S. 03 Aug 11 - 03:44 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM

"in touch" with like minded fanatics."
Like I said, the authorities aren't taking any chances; why encourage thm to do otherwise; especially as one racist fanatic has just accounted for rather a lot of young people in the name of anti-immigration - a cause not a million miles away from some people.
I was doing electrical work in the pub in Dean Street, Soho, a few weeks before the nail-bomber made his feelings known about homosexuals, so please don't say "it can't happen here" - it can and has.
I wonder why some people are so keen to quote "experts" on the one hand, and try to tell them how to do their job when it goes against the grain of your own particular philosophies - funny that!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:30 PM

In the reports I have found, Ray only thinks that his blog may have inspired Breivik.
How much credence do you give to this twat in armour Jim?
He claims to have rejected Breiviks approaches and is not claiming to have knowingly inspired anything.

What difference does it make if he was or was not inspired by all the nuts on the net?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

It would be truly surprising if he had not been "in touch" with like minded fanatics.
All fanatics of all their multitudinous, varied and strange beliefs find soul-mates via the internet.
Also folkies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:43 PM

"Please correct if I am wrong "
OK - you're wrong:
Paul Ray of The Knights Templars and ex member of the English Defence League has not only claimed that he was in touch with Breitvik, but also said he (Ray) provided the inspiration for the bombing - can't get any closer to a claim of responsibility than that.
On Brit who has been in contact with Breitvik via a psuedo-military chat site on the Net, in one memorable quote, says "he seemed like a nice bloke.
"why have there been no claims from the racists who wish to bring this topic to the fore and see an end to immigration from muslim countries?"
"Leader of the league, Tommy Robinson condemns the killings "but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up"
That's a show of solidarity if anything is - it's even been echoed on this thread.
The authorities are taking these contacts seriously enough to have shown disquiet as to whether Breitvik's call to action has been heeded - I'd rather see them err on the side of caution than allow are home-grown nutters have another go - wouldn't you?
"this guy is a fantasist"
Aren't most racists who belive their national origins, culture, complexion, religion, whatever makes them superior to other races "fanaticists" to one degree or another?
"....name of "GUEST English Martyr"
Might have agreed with you if I didn't find many of the Mudcat adopted names odd - to say the least.
Terribus has always struck me as being somewhat pretentiouly militaristic... but there you go; it takea all kinds...
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

Just a casual observation but the contribution of anyone, considering the subject of this thread, who chose to join it under the name of "GUEST English Martyr" was always going to be highly suspect.

1: "As to why there is a need to (seek to) divert this particular thread into a discussion of "islamist jihadists" as Keith appears to want to, well I can only guess."

2: "Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A."

Nothing whatsoever to do "as Keith appears to want to be". Please correct if I am wrong here but an Islamist group very early on in the passage of events did attempt, rather pathetically, to claim responsibility for the bomb in Oslo. On the other hand NO right wing extremist group has sought to claim responsibility at all.

That being the case, and IT IS THE CASE, if publicity is the sole objective in raising their concerns with regard to immigration, why have there been no claims from the racists who wish to bring this topic to the fore and see an end to immigration from muslim countries? One simple, rational, explanation could be that Breivik DID ACT ALONE.

Personally I will wait and see what such investigations as are ongoing turn up. My gut feeling is that they will conclude that he did act alone and that there is no link to any "movement", its very seldom on this forum that I whole-heartedly agree with MGOH, but Kevin is right in what he stated earlier - this guy is a fantasist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:16 AM

Just an analogy Jim, thanks all the same.
Have we discussed racism?
Certainly no member has expressed racist views.
Your opinion of my beliefs is flawed because you are totally wrong about my beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:50 AM

Sorry to take up this thread with nonsense of this sort, but this will be my last comment on it here.
Whether or not I am "the worst offender...." may or may not be the case; on a subject as serious as racism I expect there to be strong - often over-the-top discussion, especially when racist statements are made in the course of that discussion - I am prepared to give and take as much as people feel the subject merits and am happy to accept as much stick as I give.
All of which is beside the point here.
I think, and said so, that Joe over-reacted to what I believe was a fairly subdued offering by a guest - I certainly have made my opinion of Keith's beliefs clear in far stronger terms.
I don't know if you have been told you have cancer Keith, or if you were using it as an analogy; if it is true, you have my deepest sympathy, but it in no way alters my opinion of your ideas.
Nothing more on this from me here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:01 AM

Thanks Joe.
Jim, I did not bother to point out the personal attack, and I answered all the points.
You do not like the weather analogy?
OK.
A doctor tells me I have cancer.
I believe him, but it is his opinion not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 08:34 PM

Jim...thats a laugh, your own posts are full of personal insults and attacks....In fact you are the worst offender on this forum, with perhaps the exception of Lox, who is completely beyond the pale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:10 PM

Sorry Joe,
I can't see too much of a personal attack in English Martyr's posting.
"Personal attack" has now become a knee-jerk defence for arguments Keith is unble to answer, making it extremely difficult to elicit reasonable and honest responses from him.
Give us a break - I don't believe the weather forcast too often - do you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:31 PM

I'll let it go this time, English Martyr. You say it's not a personal attack, but you coulda fooled me. Please address issues, not persons. If you can't do that, I'll have to start deleting your messages.

Seems to me that if you want to hide behind anonymity and not register with a real name, then fairness dictates that you should have no right to address other posters by name. Anonymous near-insults just aren't welcome here.

-Joe Offer, moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM

EM,
"The fact remains that the Oslo crimes need to be treated on their own, the relationship of the perpetrator to far-right European fellow travellers is a legitimate subject for consideration."
I agree.

"Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A. "
I think it reasonable to make comparisons.
Many commentators on the day described this attack as having the "hall marks" of Islamic terror, and Breivik consciously aped their terminology.
As Jim says, there is a cause for concern that there may be more attacks by the Far Right.
This was not the first after all.

I do tend to assume that tomorrow's weather will be as forecast.
That does not make it my opinion.
I have neither the knowledge, data or training to provide weather forecasts.
Is that an unusual position?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,English Martyr
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:26 PM

I never cease to be amazed by the sophistry and dissembling whih Keith applies - and this is NOT a personal attack.

One of the most ridiculous post I have read refers to the fact that he Keith "believes the weather forecast " .....and so "does not have an opinion of (his) own" as weather forecasters are experts and so we should believe what these experts say..... Oh dear, oh dear!

As to why there is a need to (seek to) divert this particular thread into a discussion of "islamist jihadists" as Keith appears to want to, well I can only guess.

The fact remains that the Oslo crimes need to be treated on their own, the relationship of the perpetrator to far-right European fellow travellers is a legitimate subject for consideration.

Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A.

"I believe the weather forecasters. I have no opinion of my own".

Quite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

"If he acted alone,"
As your own examples have made clear, whether he acted alone or not is so far a matter of opinion, and couldn't be anything else given the short time since the incident took place. I have no idea whether he had help within Norway and have no opinion on the matter.
I have pointed out that he has claimed to have been in touch with groups outside Norway, including Paul Ray, ex-English Defence League and The Knights Templars, and that his statement has been confirmed by Ray, who has been questioned by the British police - presumably because they believe it to be possible.
Perhaps today's Daily Telegraph might help understand why the "implications are greater than for attacks by lone Jihadists?".
Jim Carroll

Norway attacks: Is the man who inspired Breivik a Briton?
After killer Anders Breivik claimed that he had a mentor in Britain, fears are growing that terrorism from far-Right extremists is becoming a real threat here.
By Gordon Rayner and Matthew Holehouse
7:30AM BST 30 Jul 2011
Could it happen here? From the moment it became clear that the gunman who carried out the world's worst mass shooting was a white supremacist, the question facing every political leader in the West was whether they had been blind to the threat of terrorism from the far Right.
Anders Behring Breivik may be "insane", as his lawyer put it, but he is certainly not alone in his paranoid hatred of multiculturalism, nor is he the first extremist to believe that murdering his countrymen would make him, in his own words, "a hero".
David Copeland, let's not forget, murdered three people and injured 129 when he detonated three nail bombs in London in 1999 during a 13-day campaign targeting the black, Bangladeshi and gay communities. Since then a stream of British fascists has been convicted of plotting similar bomb attacks they believed would trigger a race war aimed primarily at the spread of Islam.
So it should have come as no surprise, perhaps, that Breivik was in regular contact with supporters of the English Defence League (EDL), the latest far-Right group to crystallise around a hard core of anti-Islamification extremists. The EDL is mentioned 29 times in Breivik's manifesto. He claimed to have 600 EDL supporters among his Facebook friends. Almost inevitably, London was the city where he claimed to have embarked on his "crusade" after joining a secret society of anti-Islamic "martyrs".
His description of the inaugural meeting of the "Knights Templar", originally a medieval Christian order that is now a symbol for far-Right extremists, appears to have been written by someone who has swallowed a Dan Brown novel: there are rituals involving skulls, candles and signatures in blood; ancient noms de guerre (Breivik's was Sigurd the Crusader) and a Masonic hierarchy for members."

PS
Ake:
"Just be careful what you wish for Jim."
Sorry - don't follow you - threat - promise - what?
I do understand that your responses so far are remarkably similar to those of the EDL - surprise-surprise!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM

Jim, you said "the implications reach far beyond the events and those directly affected."

If he acted alone, why are the implications greater than for attacks by lone Jihadists?
If he did have support from some group, why are the implications greater than for attacks by Jihadists supported by Islamic terror groups?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:28 PM

Just be careful what you wish for Jim.   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

When there is no news, gossip and speculation fills the space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:04 PM

Random selection Jim.

Police are increasingly certain that Anders Behring Breivik acted alonehttp://itn.co.uk/world/25055/Norway+police+Breivik+acted+alone
Breivik Acted Alone, Says Norway Intelligence Chief
http://www.businessinsider.com/norway-bomb-anders-behring-breivik-oslo-shootings-2011-7
Norwegian domestic intelligence chief Janne Kristiansen has told the BBC no evidence has so far been found linking Anders Behring Breivik with far-right extremists in Norway or elsewhere.

But Ms Kristiansen said she thought he had acted completely on his own.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14303363


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:03 PM

No I think the actions are proof enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:47 AM

Or indeed the secret adopted son of Osama bin Laden avenging his father's death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:07 AM

Just as referring to him a deranged lunatic before he has even been given a psychiatrist, let alone having seen one, is premature, do you mean?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM

So associating his actions in this thread with English Defence League and with The Knights Templars, simply because the deranged lunatic claims links with these groups is, at best, premature?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:35 AM

Backwoodsman
"Another one bites the dust.... "
You are of course right, this squabbling over inanities is certain to wreck yet another thread - apologies.
This enquiry has only just started - nobody knows anything for certain, whether the killer acted alone, if he had support from within or outside the country, whether he will be charged with murder or, as has been suggested, crimes against humanity, or will be declared not fit to plead due to insanity.
We cannot possibly know if his "wake-up call" will meet with any response; it is far to early to make definitive statements and it is both irresponsible and/or agenda-serving to make them.
This mornings press announced that the Norwegian police have launched what they estimate will be a year-long international enquiry into how he financed himself with money salted in bank accounts all over the world; the enquiry will involve the police forces of Britain, America and the Nordic countries.
At the present time we know nothing definite and that is how it will remain for a long time to come
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:05 AM

"it is believed he acted alone"!
Where?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:25 AM

Another one bites the dust....


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:46 AM

Jim,
"your insistence that the investigation into whether he acted alone is complete"
"My insistence"!!
Why do you say this stuff about me??!
What I actually said was, "it is believed he acted alone"!
What is your objection to that true statement of the current situation Jim???


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:57 AM

"I somehow doubt that my posts will influence them much"
I'm sure it won't - just look upon your insistence that the investigation into whether he acted alone is complete as confirmation of an earlier opinion of you.
Ake;
"Jim...you never seem to tire of posting quotations out of context."
Your statements have made position quite clear - perhaps you'd like to expand on them?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:48 AM

Jim...you never seem to tire of posting quotations out of context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:45 AM

And Jim,
" fits in perfectly with everything you have argued on racism so far!"

I have only ever argued that it is abhorrent, as is your ongoing desperation to smear me with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM

Jim,
"The investigations have hardly started when you are suggesting that the police call off the hounds"

I somehow doubt that my posts will influence them much.
I am confident that they will explore the possibility of accomplices.
It really has been widely reported that he is believed to have acted alone.

His contact with far Right groups, as I keep saying, is what you would expect.
Even if he did act alone, others could be convicted of incitement, as happened with the female Jihadist I referred to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:10 AM

"It has been widely reported that he is believed to have acted alone."
I'll take that as a "no" then.
The investigations have hardly started when you are suggesting that the police call off the hounds - I wonder why?
You have been presented with evidence that links this massacre with two racist groups in Britain - you have the public response to one of those groups, which you haven't even bothered to acknowledge, so here it is once again for you to ignore:
".....but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up".
There are other such groups scattered all over Europe and the stated aim of this guy was to stir such groups into action.
There have already been violent racist incidents in some of the former communist states, attacks on Roms and on immigrant workers.
And in the light of these attacks the governments concerned should sit on their hands - yeah, right, fits in perfectly with everything you have argued on racism so far!
"....accusing him of NOT acting alone"
Not accusing him of any such thing SJ, I am suggesting that until we know whether he was or not, and if his wake-up call has had any effect, you don't take chances, racism is too near the surface in Britain and elsewhere to ignore any possibilities, especially when you get statements like this that pass for serious debate on the subject of mass murder - not unsimilar to the reaction of the English Defence League:
"This guy is obviously mad,and his actions inexcusible, but it seems clear that his rage was directed towards governments which operate an "open door" policy to immigration.
Most Western governments are presently being forced to start closing the door as the idiocy of this policy becomes apparent.
Being against unrestricted immigration has nothing to do with hatred."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 10:02 PM

Jim, Accusing him of NOT acting alone in the Mudcat is doing nothing to fight crime. It is eroding your credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:02 PM

The attempted bomb attack in Exeter was by a lone deranged jihadist with links to extremists.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5619151.ece
Another lone Jihadist with links to Islamic extremists.
She stabbed an MP in stomach.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11682732

Neither their nor Breivik's crimes should be used as evidence in reasoned political debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:07 PM

"Do you have an impeccable source for that?"

It has been widely reported that he is believed to have acted alone.

He has made links with far Right groups and individuals, as you would expect in the age of the internet.
A lone, obsessed Jihadist would have established links with extreme Islamist groups.
What would be the difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

"My understanding is that Norway believes he acted alone."
Do you have an impeccible source for that?
The British police think both his and Ray's statements are serious enough to be acted on - he claims links with the English Defence League and with The Knights Templars, his actions were aimed at "waking up Europe"; god knows there are enough nutty racists around for some to possibly have heeded that call (we even have evidence of appeasers on this thread).
"I would not, as you have done include any other group or individual with him until concrete evidence is provided that others are involved."
What evidence do you want, another massacre? Surely you act on the side of caution where behaviour such as this is concerned?
I suggest you re-read Tommy Robinson's statement "the slaughter might wake Europeans up" fairly close to Breitvik's own.
As I said, early days; too early to take chances.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:53 PM

He was a far Right fanatic.
Of course he made contact with far Right individuals and groups.
Of course he had conversations with them.
My understanding is that Norway believes he acted alone.

Please do not start suggesting again that I have ever posted a racist idea, or that I am racist.
I have not, and am not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:44 PM

OK how about a deranged psychopath who may or may not have acted in accord with other lone, deranged psychopaths.

Other than a full and thorough investigation of the man, his actions and associations, which I assumed was self evident, the proper response remains the same.

I would not, as you have done include any other group or individual with him until concrete evidence is provided that others are involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:39 PM

"....lone, deranged psychopath?"
Lone, deranged psychopath - do you know something the rest of us don't?
As I have already pointed out, early days yet - we have no idea if Breivik was acting alone - he has already claimed to have been in contact with the English Defence League and their respose has thrown little light on the accuracy of those claims - "Leader of the league, Tommy Robinson condemns the killings (they would, wouldn't they!) "but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up"" Empathy if not active co-operation.
Brevik's and Paul Ray's statements that he has been in touch with and inspired by Ray, ex EDL and now head of the Knights Templars, has been taken serious enough by the police for them to have detained Ray for questioning.
We know that back in the late 1980s there was a European League of Fascists - The Singers Club abandoned its venue at the Cora Hotel in Woburn Place in protest when the hotel manager accepted a booking from Marine Le Pen for a week-end conference there.
Of course, none of this is definite enough to reach any hard and fast conclusions - certainly not a claim of Breivik being "a lone, deranged psychopath" - the Norwegian police are considering whether or not to charge him with "crimes against humanity".
"What should be the correct response to a lone, deranged psychopath" - if that is what he is?
One of extreme caution - the Norwegian police are still attempting to find out if he acted alone; he cerainly has sympathisers elsewhere, if not active supporters, and, as you know yourself, the world is full of racist nutters who would act on their beliefs that, for instance, all Muslims (particularly males) are culturally tainted and need to be sorted out - ah - if only they could find the bottle to come out from behind their computer screens!!!
"Are you perhaps exploiting this appalling crime to push your particular viewpoint?"
Veiwing the situation based on the evidence at hand can hardly be described as "exploiting" and I certainly make no apology for holding the veiws that I do on racism, even if I didn't have the benefit of being handed them by "impeccible sources".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:40 PM

Aaron Nation? Where did he think Aaron came from?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:31 PM

Again I agree Jack (not about your referees.)

The existence of one nut job, far Right or extreme Islamist, should not influence the debate about levels of immigration, multiculturalism, integration, ....

They are both irrelevant to informed, rational debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:25 PM

You know I was wondering why I was getting no job offers.

Here are my references

Axel Murderer
Heddy B. Job
Newt Gingrich


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:08 PM

Speaking of 'Aryan', I came across an unusual name a week ago.

I manage an apartment building and process many applications for tenancy.

One man put down as reference his friend, "Aaron Nation". There is no way I would rent to either him or his friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:00 PM

In response to a lone Jihadist as a blow towards establishing an Emirates in Europe: Step up security. Do not discuss him in the context of politics. Look for manifestos and keep an eye on the authors. Monitor fertilizer and gun sales. Have plastic surgeons to report anyone who asks to look more Aryan. But do not call him a "Jihadist" that furthers his aim. Anti-social lunatic who happens to have attended a mosque would be more to the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:56 AM

Agree Jack.
Jim, had the same crime been committed by a lone Jihadist as a blow towards establishing an Emirates in Europe, would you make the same comment?
He would doubtless have made connections to extreme Islamic groups.

Are you perhaps exploiting this appalling crime to push your particular viewpoint?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

Step up security. Do not discuss him in the context of politics. Look for manifestos and keep an eye on the authors. Monitor fertilizer and gun sales. Have plastic surgeons to report anyone who asks to look more Aryan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM

Jim,
"ignore this and the Breiviks of this world win."

So, what should be the correct response to a lone, deranged psychopath?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 10:15 AM

The "cigarettes" defense?

In the picture shown the killer has that same strange infantile placid look on his face as Osama Bin Ladin has in many of his pictures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 05:37 AM

"Did anyone ever claim responsibility for the Birmingham pub bombings? "
There was no need - the authorities had the information on who actually carried them out years before the Birmingham Six were released - read Chris Mullins' excellent 'Error of Judgement'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:55 AM

I was in Oslo a few weeks ago. It was a sunny day. Young men holiday maker clothes. beautiful young girls in summer dresses. All e-mailing and chatting on their mobile phones in the sunshine. Sad to think some them may now be dead.

Did anyone ever claim responsibility for the Birmingham pub bombings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:44 AM

This morning, while looking for something totally different, I found a report about a murder in a Kent town, involving a family from the Baltic area. There were comments. A lot of them were thoroughly poisonous, ignoring the tragedy in order to express opinions about immigrants. One used the username BNP. Some tried to counter this.

Years ago on a site supposed to be about re-uniting school friends, there were message boards dripping with xenophobia.

Even more years ago, as a teenager, I wrote to my local paper on an issue about a particular ethnic group, and was sent obnoxious mail in response. My mother intercepted some (I don't know how she knew what it was like) but I did read one before it was burned.

I don't know what the solution is about these people. By now, one would hope that there would have been some effect from education, but it obviously cannot counter the home background.

Breivik, I now hear, had had plastic surgery to make himself look more Aryan. That and testosterone suggest serious self image problems, as well as the racist delusions.

Penny


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