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BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp

Related threads:
BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway? (223)
BS: security concerns about Norway shooting (142)


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Subject: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:03 PM

What a nightmare. Reports are of multiple deaths at both locations and people trapped in buildings in downtown Oslo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: ranger1
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:06 PM

Two deaths in the bombing, five injuries at the camp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:32 PM

Seven in the bombings, and the police have the shooter in custody -- he was wearing a police uniform.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: maeve
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:37 PM

Here's a link- Oslo bomb/shootings


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:53 PM

The BBC is reporting that witness saw "20-25 bodies" on the shore of the lake where the youth camp shooting occurred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:55 PM

It appears that Islam does not recognize Norway's right to exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:58 PM

I haven't heard or seen any reports about who or what did the attacks. No information, no judgements. Norwegian police say that there has not been any "claim of responsibility" yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bassen
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:01 PM

So many GSWs from the youth camp that hospitals in southeastern Norway have called for type O blood donors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:07 PM

1.5 Billion Muslims, before any "claim of responsibility" pdq blames all of Islam.

Who says right wing media does no harm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bassen
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:07 PM

Footage from right after the bomb blast here


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:09 PM

There are actually claims:

A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (the Helpers of the Global Jihad), issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at CNA, a research institute that studies terrorism. The message said the attack was a response to Norwegian forces' presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the Prophet Muhammad. "We have warned since the Stockholm raid of more operations," the group said, apparently referred to a bombing in Sweden in December 2010, according to Mr McCants' translation. "What you see is only the beginning, and there is more to come." The claim could not be confirmed.

- copied from live reporting in the Guardian.

To say

'that Islam does not recognize Norway's right to exist'.

is ofcourse simplistic bloody nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

Fucking extremists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: OldPossum
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 04:08 PM

It is reported that the man doing the shooting on the island has also been seen near the site of the bomb blast. He is described as a tall blond Scandinavian type, who speaks with a dialect from Eastern Norway.

Let us not jump to any conclusions, but await further information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM

It was a Labour Party youth camp...the shooter was a Norwegian man dressed in a police uniform...according to the BBC, authorities are thinking the attack is politically motivated, instead of religious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:39 PM

My thoughts and support go out to all of the injured, their families and those others involved in this tragedy, but esp. to Skarpi, one of our own. May he and his family be safe.

Before pointing any fingers it would be good to get all of the available facts. Whomever is responsible will be dealt with, I am sure.

May Peace Prevail on Earth,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:59 PM

I greatly wish that people could find something to do with their time besides harming other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:10 PM

seems to me that the Muslim are attacking the old viking s , well I say this attack on Norway is an attack on Iceland ..we are from Norway so
just blew the old Viking horns and well weapon up and clean up the
Scandinavia from this beast .

all the best Skarpi but again not all Muslim are bad , we may never
forget that .


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:17 PM

Right now, my thoughts go out to the people harmed in both attacks and their families. If this is anything like September 11, many are still trying to locate loved ones. The young people who were attacked at the camp are terrified of the police - given they were attacked by a policeman. Very well thought out attack.
Stupid as well. Those young people are the likeliest hope of future understanding and acceptance.

So very sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

It's early days and few facts, but this is starting to sound more like Tim McVeigh than Bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:33 PM

well I am angry , but also my thoughts are with them all , I have have friends there and I hope they are ok .


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:40 PM

It seems the bomber is a local man. His motives will come out over the next few days. I am sure.
I am not angry, skarpi. Just sad. I am sick of reading about babies microwaved to death, mothers and fathers murdered in senseless attacks, people starving while others die of obesity.
I think I am getting odd in my dotage.
FUCK that! I think I am right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:59 PM

Local ? yes he may be local does not mean is not foreign ...he may have lived for many years in Norway ...

yes , there are things going on in this world everyday that are sad .

we the human are killing our self slowly hour by hour ..until we all die
strange to see this evil predator wipe it self out of this world .

thoughts and pray over the ocean , my friends are ok ..

kv Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 08:59 PM

A "police source" told the Associated Press that this appears to be a home-grown terrorist attack by one man. Also, a bomb has been found in the Camp and is being deactivated by the police and the Army.

Nobody knows anything yet, really. The death toll is at 17 and expected to rise.

Skarpi, I hope that everyone is well and this greatly saddens me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 09:15 PM

Love to you, Skarpi, and to those in Oslo and at the youth labour camp.

And to echo Kat, May peace prevail on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM

I agree with AllisonA(Animaterra).


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:09 PM

Turns out the guys name is Anders Behring Breivik.
Said to be a 37yo 6" tall blond Norwegian.
Current reports claim no connection to muslim jihad, in spite of some jihadist groups taking credit on their web sites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:23 PM

The Associated Press is reported 7 dead in Oslo and at least 80 at the Camp. The police are saying that the man acted alone.

This is sickening. My heart goes out to the people of Norway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:31 PM

I'm horrified and shocked on their behalf, and a large part of me is immensely relieved that it wasn't Al Q'aeda or their ilk, which I feared with the two fairly simultaneous attacks... Somehow this makes it a horrible aberration and not yet another horrible attack from the same amorphous enemy... and I feel bad for feeling any relief in the face of their tragedy.

I wish I could express that this does not detract from awful anguishing loss-cum-affront a la 9/11. This is a huge event far out of proportion to the number of dead for such a civilized nation, no?

And the gunman (note, +gun man, how did that happen in Norway, you can't exactly find one at every street corner) is still alive, so we may actually find out what he was thinking, or if.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: MarkS
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:37 PM

Apparantly the guy is in custody. I suspect we will be getting details about motive and opportunity over the next few days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bfdk
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:27 AM

This is just plain horrible, I lack words. When I went to bed last night the reports from Utya were already speaking of 25-30 dead, but when I got up this morning it's now 'at least 80'..

This is the man held by police for questioning about the bombing in Oslo and the shooting on the island of Utya. The article states that he's lived right outside of Oslo all his life and a friend of his is quoted as saying he turned right radical in his late 20s. Hitherto unknown by the police except for a minor traffic violation some years back.

Reportedly, there were about 560 young people on the island at the time of the shooting, and a search is still going on on Utya and in the lake surrounding the island. I have been unable to find a figure saying how many young people are still unaccounted for.

Incomprehensible!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:55 AM

80 dead in the shooting, according to the New York Times. What a horrible, horrible day.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bassen
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:22 AM

Police press conference now saying 84 confirmed dead, water around the island being searched by divers. Flags to fly at half mast today.

The perpetrator describes himself as a Christian fundamentalist on websites "One man with beliefs is worth 100 000 with interests" - his own words. A sad day for my country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:30 AM

Not any sort of Christian I recognise, even among the ones I don't like. Not very pagan Viking either - very heroic to take an automatic weapon to unarmed children.

The really chilling thing is the way he shot all the fallen bodies in the head with a shot gun, to make sure that no-one was faking dead - which some were.

This wasn't political, and certainly not religious. He looks very like a psychopath.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: billybob
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:49 AM

So sad, lighting a candle, for my friends in Oslo I send all my love.
Wendy


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:00 AM

It's at times like this that we need to think carefully about what terrorism is all about. When terrorists brutally kill and maim people, those deaths and injuries are, to the terrorists 'merely incidental' and 'just' a means to an end (let me hasten to add that, to people like you and me, they are foul crimes). What the terrorists hope to achieve is a gross over-reaction and a de-stabilisation of a whole society. We should not forget that when Al-Quaeda attacked the USA in September 2001 they got just the reaction that they had been hoping for. Up to now the US Government has spent around $4 trillion (!) on two futile wars and this will impact severely on its future prospects as a world power.

Before pdq even knew who was responsible for the carnage in Norway he felt moved to write: "It appears that Islam does not recognize Norway's right to exist." Thus playing straight into Osama's dead hands! pdq you're an idiot!

I hope and pray that the people of Norway have more sense. I also extend to them my deepest sympathy at this dreadful point in their history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:26 AM

BBC News has just had someone point out that the children were from all over the country, and so the impact, had he killed more on the island, would have been nationwide. It will be widespread as it is.

"Deliberately designed to spread fear and so political change."

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:31 AM

Eyewitnesses on the island now report two gunmen, not confirmed by police.

This would explain why one witness felt relief at the appearance of the one in disguise, if there had already been shots elsewhere.

If he was also in police uniform, he could have got off without being noticed.

I have just been reading Terry Pratchett's Carpe Jugulum - Granny Weatherwax defines evil as being when one treats people as things. By this definition, yesterday's doings were evil.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:47 AM

It would appear that this lone attacker has thought very carefully about his attack on the Norwegian Labour party organisation and he must have been planning it for some time.

- Four guns two of which were "legally held" (The fully automatic weapon and the automatic shot gun were not - Automatic weapons in Norway are strictly illegal and automatic self loading shot guns in Norway have to have restricted magazines of two or three shots IIRC)

- He had a flat in Oslo but had bought a small farm supposedly to grow vegetables which gave him access to purchase the fertilisers used to make his explosives without raising suspicion

- He apaprently parked his car bomb and then drove to Tyrefjord an inland freshwater lake where Utoya is located. The bomb having gone off in Oslo at 15:15hrs he appeared in Police Uniform and presented himself to those controlling access to the island, saying that he had to brief those on the island on security matters, the Norwegian Prime Minister who is from the Norwegian Labour Party was due to speak to the youngsters on Utoya today.

- He arrived on the island and called all the youngsters to gather round for the briefing then started shooting. As the children and youngsters ran for cover he started hunting them down. Appeals went out on Norwegian television and radio not to call children on the island as the ring tones from their mobile phones would give their positions away.

- People on the island ran into the water to escape, the lake is up in the mountains to the west of Oslo (about 50km), fresh water even at this time of year is very, very cold. He shot at those in the water trying to escape.

- He planted explosives on the island to kill any rescue parties

- Diving teams are now searching for bodies that may have sunk, there are still people missing the body count may not be finalised yet.

Speaking to former work colleagues over in Norway the country is in shock.

A double attack by a lone right wing nutcase, as bad, horrific and as terrible as this was, is a far better in prospect to an attack by a group that yesterday's events may have signalled only the start of a concentrated campaign.

With the undoubted feelings running as they are I do not give much for this guy's chances. And like Rhett Butler "I don't give a damn". Norway is a country with a small population, the summer camp was attended by youngsters from all over, the ripples of this will extend far and wide, my thoughts are with the victims, their friends and their families.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:51 AM

"Deliberately designed to spread fear and so political change."

The Norwegian Prime Minister was very clear in his press conference yesterday

"Whoever did this. They will not destroy our democracy"


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 05:59 AM

It seems to me that he may have acted alone but that he probably had accomplices in the preparation and planning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:08 AM

Latest reports on BBC TV are 7 dead in Oslo, and 84 on the island, but they say there are still some youngsters unaccounted for.

A horrendous act, deserving of capital punishment, which I'm afraid he won't receive.

The effect upon the population of a country where the streets are among the safest in the world is incalculable, and the loss of all those children is so awful that words just aren't capable of expressing how one feels about such crimes.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:14 AM

"A horrendous act, deserving of capital punishment, which I'm afraid he won't receive."

If they change their laws for him, become more brutal, that is a victory for him. Lets hope that the Government of Norway is less cowardly than George W Bush and the Congress under him, and sticks to its principles.

Though they will have to rethink their security protocols.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:17 AM

He must be a total psychopath in the true sense of the word. But what reasons did he formulate in his head for these acts? What did he hope to achieve by this wicked carnage? I can't see his 'logic', was it political, personal vindictiveness, pleasure in killing? He must have planned it for weeks, so it wasn't an impulsive act. I find it completely chilling. The poor bereaved families, my heart aches for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:27 AM

"A horrendous act, deserving of capital punishment, which I'm afraid he won't receive."

No way - he deserves to live with this for the rest of his hopefully very long life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:13 AM

Some blame must surely go to the right wing media, which targets and relies on vitriol and invective for influencing fragile intellects.

I was in Norway (in Oslo in fact) a couple of weeks ago. The Norwegians are really nice people, and their country is very beautiful. it a really relaxed sort of place. Very expensive. i guess when you have a cost of living so high - there must be an awful lot of very resentful losers somewhere in the landscape.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:43 AM

Here are some of the writings of the killer. A hater of Muslims A lover of Zionism


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:55 AM

Lovely Norway, I am so sorry for your terrible loss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:06 AM

"A hater of Muslims a lover of Zionism"

A fundamentalist Christian, a lover of Christ.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:12 AM

Christian in name only, bobad. This is a insane, evil person.

Regards,

Maeve


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:15 AM

A crackpot extremist, a lover of extremism...


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:15 AM

Read what he has written.

He is a bigot who voices his hate. I've read six of his articles thus far. I see promotion of Israel and hatred of all Muslims, no mention of God or Christ, no hint of Christian values.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:20 AM

"Norway killer a fundamentalist Christian
Norwegian police say the 32 year-old who gunned down at least 84 youths attending a camp is a right-wing Christian"

http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/Content.aspx?id=149068


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:29 AM

Hate manifests itself in humans of all relgious beliefs.

the same can be said for the madness of revenge and the hypocrisy of finger pointing.

I'm am sickened and repulsed at it all.

can we ever find peace?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:36 AM

I read a bit more. He has some odd opinions on science and history that he seems to have a need to express. Such as "Why Asians didn't invent space travel." He often berates Western governments for not doing enough about the "Muslim threat." "Muslim" immigration seems to be a main concern. But he doesn't like Mexicans either.

He may or may not be a fundamentalist Christian, but that is certainly not the direction of his writing of the websites he wrote for.

He also wrote an article about "Terrorist" groupies. No doubt he is a psychopath but it is hard to deny that the attacks were in response to what he believed was excessive tolerance of Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:43 AM

I believe that Number 6 is right.

But I look a 1.5 billion Muslims, all but a small few are peaceful. I look at the about the same number of Christians and most or them are peaceful too.

I think to understand this man, to understand this motivation, we must look at the hate he expresses and how he expresses it.

I think the security forces of the West will be taking a closer look at a lot of right wing bloggers and posters to Zionist blogs.

Perhaps the myth that Muslims have some special kind of hate that "Christians" and "Jews" do not will finally be put to rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:45 AM

So appalling it's hard to express. Makes me think of many youth conferences I went to--the beautiful tiny island location made it a death trap for this politically motivated psycho. I am still thinking there must have been more than one shooter (consider how the death toll suddenly, dramatically rose last night as more bodies were discovered), which news reports have only hinted at.

Don't forget, early news reports about a crisis like this are notoriously inaccurate--and not just the first hours, often the inaccuracies continue for days once they're fed into the media amplifier. Eyewitness accounts are important but not often inaccurate as well--we as a species are not good at dispassionate observation of confusing and terrifying events.

My guess is the "Helpers of Jihad" which claimed to have launched the attack are none other than Anders Breivik and his accomplices. Just an early disinformation component of their plan, both a red herring and an attempt to provoke action against Muslims.

Terrorizing the next generation of moderate liberals and their parents--who will think twice about the next time their kids are invited to a political event. This is so very disgusting.

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

No death penalty in Norway and the maximum possible prison sentence to impose is 20 years. He can however be classified as a danger to society and held under review and that could possibly mean that he will never be released.

The "immigrant muslim community" of Oslo amounts to 25% of the population and right from the start of reporting this incident the authorities were a pains to recommend restraint until facts were known. The fact that the shootings were being carried out by a native Norwegian was very quick in being released.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:07 AM

Teribus, Are you saying that 25% of the people in Oslo are Muslim immigrants?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:19 AM

Wikipedia: (Total population is approx 5 million)

Among non-Christian religions, Islam is the largest with the population of about 150,000.[114] It is practiced mainly by Somali, Arab, Albanian, and Turkish immigrants, as well as Norwegians of Pakistani descent.

The article also notes that although the Church of Norway is the official state religion which includes 79% of the population, Norwegians are among the least religiously adherent people in the world, 20% consider their religious faith important to them and under 5% attend church weekly.

Even under present circumstances, I think I could enjoy spending some time there...
W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:53 AM

The Man Who Believes He Is Right


The shock and denial of the waiting parents is hell incarnate, waiting for word of their child as police stand before a curtain.

They already know that the odds of thier child being murdered or gravely injured is not 1 in 4 but virtually certain.

The pain and guilt is unbearable. If only I... What if I... Why?
Who? What if they...What if you.. What if I... and they break down and cry.

The opinions of all of us turn to anger. We yelled the killer is Muslim, no the killer is Jewish, no the killer is Christian, no the killer is right wing extremist. And we are lost, bickering among ourselves.

With all the reflection of research with science and religious study, justice will never satisfy; we fall into a loneliness and depression, and feel we can no longer cry.

His guns can light up the world. When he shoots he does not feel powerless. Still he feels every insult that's hurled. He thinks he has everything to gain if you could feel his pain and that is why he is so dangerous.

We will point to patterns of hate and we'll try to accept our fate but no one or thing will change the fight of the bestial proud predator in the man who believes he is Right.






Don Hakman 7, 2011


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:59 AM

Jerusalem post 7/18/2011


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

Thanks for posting that link Jack. Potentially ties a lot of threads together.

For those who didn't look, it is an article describing Norwegian government support for the impending introduction to the UN of a proposal for a Palestinian state.

Like the Norwegian government, (which has and/or is participating in military actions in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq), nothing particularly radical.

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:12 AM

Can someone please explain how Moslems and Islam are relevant to this discussion?

Any factual connection would be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:19 AM

Sure lox.

It seems clear to me that his motivation was hatred of Islam. He was punishing the Labor government for not taking up the fight.
The killer wrote this...

Hagen said that if Israel loses in the Middle East, Europe will succumb to Islam next. He felt that Christians should support Israel and oppose Islamic inroads into Europe. In an unprecedented step, a group of Muslim ambassadors to Norway blasted Carl I. Hagen in a letter to the newspaper Aftenposten, claiming that he had offended 1.3 billion Muslims around the world. Other Norwegian politicians quickly caved in and condemned Hagen. Maybe Norway, "the country of peace" and home to the Nobel Peace Prize, will get along just fine with Islam, "the religion of peace."

Although some political leaders such as Mr. Carl I. Hagen have a clear understanding of what's going on, they are unfortunately few and far between. Most European media commentators are hostile to the Jewish state of Israel, partly because they get angry with anybody defending themselves against Islamic Jihad instead of surrendering, and partly because they want to project their own feelings of guilt from the Holocaust onto Israel by recasting the Jews as villains and the Palestinians as victims.

French filmmaker Pierre Rehov made the film Suicide Killers where he interviewed the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. He warns that we are facing "a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization," a "culture of hatred in which the uneducated are brainwashed to a level where their only solution in life becomes to kill themselves and kill others in the name of a God. I hear a mother saying 'Thank God, my son is dead.' Her son had became a shaheed, a martyr, which for her was a greater source of pride than if he had became an engineer, a doctor or a winner of the Nobel Prize. [...] They don't see the innocent being killed, they only see the impure that they have to destroy."

Rehov believes that we are dealing with "a new form of Nazism" that it is going to spread to Europe and the United States, too.

Spanish journalist Sebastian Villar Rodriguez claims that Europe died in Auschwitz: "We assassinated 6 million Jews in order to end up bringing in 20 million Muslims!" Yet in 2007, Ciempozuelos, a small Madrid suburb, refused to commemorate Holocaust Day and opted instead to commemorate the 'Day of Palestinian Genocide.' In Britain following Muslim pressure, the Bolton Council scrapped its Holocaust Memorial Day event. The Muslim Council of Britain asked for a Genocide Day to protest the Israeli "genocide" against the Palestinians. The secretary-general of the MCB, Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, has earlier compared the situation of Muslims in Britain to Jews under Hitler.

We thus have the absurd situation where the Nazis of today are presented as Jews while the Jews are presented as Nazis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:19 AM

It doesn't matter one whit if he's a run-of-the-mill psycho or a fundamentalist Christian follower of Odin.

Well over 80 children are dead and 7 more are dead in Osolo. How many are physically wounded isn't yet reported. How many are mentally wounded, well, what's the population of Norway?

Every kid and adult who was on that island should be in counseling right now, because PTSD has already set in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:19 AM

Through the idea of extremists who kill people to prove their point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:23 AM

Lox, it seems that Breivik holds strongly anti-Muslim views, which (even though Norway has recently been in NATO military actions against certain Muslim factions) he feels the governing party of Norway does not support, in particular vis-a-vis the question of Palestinian statehood, and probably Norway's immigration policies (I'm guessing on that one).

But your point is well taken. There is no apparent involvement of Muslims in these terorist events, either as attackers or victims. As I mentioned, I believe the hitherto-unknown "Helpers of Jihad" group is a fabrication of Breivik and his cronies.

W-P


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

Norwegian news from Thursday

This is certainly an indication that the attack was not an Islamic Jihad.

Quite the opposite, I would think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:41 AM

Thank you Jack.

You have presented us with some interesting viewpoints on the subject of your opinion of the Israel/Palestine question and on your opinion about the motivations of people who sympathize with Palestinians.

All very interesting.

However, my interest is in the recent atrocities in Norway, which is the reason why I am posting to this thread.

I noted lots of comments about Moslems.

I would like to know how Moslems are supposed to be connected to the Atrocities in Norway.

So far nobody has provided a connection, except that the Tall Blonde Norwegian guy who was caught, allegedly hates Moslems.


ie - we have a wacko Islamophobe venting his hatred on kids.



So I'll repeat - why are we discussing Moslems? When on this issue, we should be worrying about Islamophobia?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:50 AM

Sorry Jack,

I appear to have made a mistake in responding to your post.

This is because it isn't clear how much of what was written was taken from the killer, or if any of it was added by you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:51 AM

"we should be worrying about Islamophobia"

I am discussing hatred of Muslims and support of Zionism as the likely motivation for the crimes. I am sorry that I do not know how to do that in a way that pleases you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:52 AM

Earlier in the tread I posted a link to the man's writings. If you read that, I think that you will see where I am coming from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM

Have done so Jack,

Position clarified :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:00 AM

Yes I read a number of his blogs, which is why I wrote the lyrics which apply to me, you and him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:03 AM

I was asked a question:

"Are you saying that 25% of the people in Oslo are Muslim immigrants?2

Something like that, I know that about 14 years ago it was just below 20% and initial commentators when asked to speculate mentioned the 25% figure. Oslo is the largest centre of population in Norway with about 600,000 people but they are very spread out (Oslo holds two characteristics as a Capital City it has one of the smallest populations but in terms of size and area is one of the largest in Europe)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:21 AM

According to the CIA fact book 1.8 % of Norway is Muslim.

1.8% of a total population of 5 million is about 90,000

25% of 600,000 is 150,000. So even if every Muslim in Norway was an immigrant and they all lived Oslo, you would be off by more than a third.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:50 AM

Jack is telling us that it is his support of Zionism that motivated him to commit this atrocity. By implication he is saying that this is the type of thing that supporters of Zionism are disposed to doing. What proof does he have of this? It can just as easily be said that he was motivated by his belief in Christianity or his support of a right wing ideology. I think this tells us more about Jack than the perpetrator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM

OK Jack as long as you are happy, I mean WTF would the guy being interviewed know, he has after all only lived and worked in Norway all his life most likely born and brought up in Oslo. - You tell it like it is Jack.

CIA Fact Book if I used that as a reference in any of our discussions you'd laugh me off the planet.

CIA Fact Book will be how far out of date?

CIA Fact will only detail and mirror official figures handed them by the Norwegian Government, any illegal, unregistered aliens where you live Jack? Here in the UK we do not have the foggiest notion of how many illegal aliens are within our borders.

1.8% Muslim only known IF THEY HAVE REGISTERED THEIR RELIGION

Your CIA FACT BOOK only has an estimated population for 2010

My biggest concern at the moment is keeping in touch with a friend whose daughter and friend were on the island.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:58 AM

Teribus, I used CIA fact book, because I thought it would be a source you would respect.

When you have something more concrete than "I heard some guy say it on the Radio" I'll listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:06 PM

>>Jack is telling us that it is his support of Zionism that motivated him to commit this atrocity. By implication he is saying that this is the type of thing that supporters of Zionism are disposed to doing. What proof does he have of this? It can just as easily be said that he was motivated by his belief in Christianity or his support of a right wing ideology. I think this tells us more about Jack than the perpetrator. <<

I am implying no such thing. I am talking about this man's motivations. If you can point to one place where I implicated Zionist in general please point it out.

I think this tells us more about Bobad than we would like to know. And it saddens me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

"If you can point to one place where I implicated Zionist in general please point it out."

Ha, ha....I was waiting for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

Then obviously you are ready.

Point it out.

The implication was an but an inference. It is in your head only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:45 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM

When I first saw the photos of the bombing and heard all of this, I thought it was like Tim McVeigh and David Koresh rolled into one. I deleted it out of an earlier post because it seemed to soon to give any characterization, but it still feels like a germane reading of the events. I wonder how much of what happened there was influenced by homegrown terror activities like we had in the US?

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:50 PM

Can't pass up any opportunity for a little Jew bashing, can we Jack?
Oh, I know it's not the Jews, it's the State of Israel or it's the government of Israel or it's Zionism, right...nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Of all the possible causes this deluded individual had for his actions you have declared it to be his support of Zionism.

You have an obsession Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:52 PM

You said that I implied something on this thread. Back it up or reveal yourself to be a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:28 PM

There are many broken people in the world, historically and currently.

Some one said in early post "amorphous enemy." That enemy is every broken person, bred from ignorance and fed on fear and hate.

Sadly the media does play a part in the broken person's ideologies and actions.

I am more inclined to atheism now, but I still think the idea and example of Christ is right. Just as the idea and example of Allah is right. It is the broken person's misapplication that is the problem.

So what is the cure? I take my cue from deities in which I do not believe. Love and forgiveness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:32 PM

7.5 % Muslims living in Oslo county (source: Wikipedia with links to Norwegian statistics office). The percentage in Oslo town is likely to be higher.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM

According to an article I just read, the most he can receive for this crime is 21 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:44 PM

A day before the atrocity on the island of Utoya , Labour Youth delegates at the summer camp had held a Palestine solidarity event there.


http://mondoweiss.net/2011/07/the-norway-massacre-and-the-nexus-of-islamophobia-and-right-wing-zionism.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 01:58 PM

One of the pictures released of Breivik shows him wearing an odd outfit with blue-and-white sash and apron, vaguely Masonic in style (but not elaborate enough to actually be Masonic).

That must be the insignia of some organization. Anybody know what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:03 PM

Thank you Mayomick.

Mr. Weiss in that article has said what I have been trying to say. He is a lot more eloquent on that topic than I. And since he is a Jew, and NOT a Zionist, perhaps he is a source that Bobad will more readily accept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:04 PM

A lot of conspiracy sights are saying that he is a mason. The masons I know are good people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:28 PM

My prayers are with the families of those lost in both attacks. Also with the survivors who will relive the day sometimes when they least expect it.
Such a tragedy.
Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:21 PM


Here are some of the writings of the killer. A hater of Muslims A lover of Zionism
(JtS)

According to the information in the German news this statement is wrong. B. has quoted some of these writings approvingly but isn't the author.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM

Are you saying he is not Fjordman?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM

He may have been anti-moslem but he attacked liberals, and he went after their children. Old school, that.

Thanks for the bullet point info!

Man alive. Those poor, poor families. That poor King and on down who will feel responsible when there was nothing to be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:22 PM

There seems to be far too much material linked to by "Fjordman" for it all to have one author.

The BBC just said his Facebook page used to list his interests as bodybuilding and Freemasonry, so the regalia probably were Masonic after all.

The Beeb also says Facebook took his page down. I wonder if they've shredded his friend list as well.

The BBC's coverage this evening was some of the most disgusting stuff I've ever heard them come out with. Dredging up right-wing ideologues to say that Norway needs to impose immigration controls to stop this happening again. I didn't hear the media saying the US ought to have just given Al-Queda whatever they wanted after 9/11, did you? But when a blonde Nazi perpetrates a massacre, they blame the victims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM

"There seems to be far too much material linked to by "Fjordman" for it all to have one author."

What i linked to is supposed to be all of his stuff, just a few pieces a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Little Robyn
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:13 PM

I believe one of the missing is a Kiwi girl who has dual citizenship.
The kids were not only from all over Norway but all over the world.
One angry, misguided individual can harm so many innocents.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:27 PM

Being left- or right- leaning politically makes it no more excusable than Hitler or Stalin was...or Timothy McVeigh or the Provos or the mob who killed Joseph and Hyrum Smith in Carthage, Illinois or the state militia gunning down strikers in the Pullman Strike or the Peterborough Massacre or....

I hope that we can learn from this individual what makes him tick and in that way hope to prevent such carnage in the future. Unfortunately, I don't believe can prevent such, not in this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:47 PM

The opinions of all of us turn to anger. We yelled the killer is Muslim, no the killer is Jewish, no the killer is Christian, no the killer is right wing extremist. And we are lost, bickering among ourselves.

With all the reflection of research with science and religious study, justice will never satisfy; we fall into a loneliness and depression, and feel we can no longer cry.

His guns can light up the world. When he shoots he does not feel powerless. Still he feels every insult that's hurled. He thinks he has everything to gain if you could feel his pain and that is why he is so dangerous.

We will point to patterns of hate and we'll try to accept our fate but no one or thing will change the fight of the bestial proud predator in the man who believes he is Right.





Stilly river sage, you were exemplary in witholding characterizations so kudos to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:32 PM

It pays to follow some links before assuming and speculating too much!"

http://kleinverzet.blogspot.com/2011/07/thought-and-prayer.html


"[UPDATE001] There is a vicious rumour going around that Fjordman is the Oslo shooter named Anders Breivik. Sites like LGF are gleefully running with this.

IT IS NOT TRUE!

From Gates of Vienna:
I was in conversation with Fjordman all day today, starting before the shootings, during the slaughter, and afterwards. If he was shooting up Utya, he was doing an amazing job of communicating with his friends the whole time, even after he was thrown in a jail cell."


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: bfdk
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:12 AM

Twisted mind


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:37 AM

Donuel, well written. Thanks for sharing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: mg
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 02:57 AM

Sorry..but one thing could have stopped him and that would have been a sniper's bullet before 85 or 98 or however many people died. And granted, it was an island, and they couldn't find a boat (in Norway? Near an island?). But they say most police in Norway are unarmed. That is what happens. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:49 AM

Right mg

Norway (and Britain) should Arm their police, like they do in your country, and our murder rate would be more like yours right?

Thanks you can keep it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:33 AM

"25% of 600,000 is 150,000. So even if every Muslim in Norway was an immigrant and they all lived Oslo, you would be off by more than a third."

Even at that the you are being a bit gentle on his figures. The CIA figures actually give the population of the country as only 4.691 million and Oslo at 875,000 (not the 600,000 originally quoted here) so at 1.8% of the country's population that gives a maximum 84,6000 Moslems and if they all lived in Oslo it would make it only 9.66% Moslem. If the figures quoted by the CIA site are correct of course.

The BBC seemed to initially be making a big thing about Islam being the second biggest religion in the country. It was stated more than several times. I imagine if we treat all the different forms of Christianity as one religion then Islam will be the second religion in virtually every European country. Something so normal doesn't seem to be so newsworthy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM

Even at that the you are being a bit gentle on his figures. The CIA figures actually give the population of the country as only 4.691 million and Oslo at 875,000 (not the 600,000 originally quoted here) so at 1.8% of the country's population that gives a maximum 84,6000 Moslems and if they all lived in Oslo it would make it only 9.66% Moslem. If the figures quoted by the CIA site are correct of course.

The BBC seemed to initially be making a big thing about Islam being the second biggest religion in the country. It was stated more than several times. I imagine if we treat all the different forms of Christianity as one religion then Islam will be the second religion in virtually every European country. Something so normal doesn't seem to be so newsworthy!

SORRY THAT WAS ME


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:12 PM

I think Teribus has it about right. To start with, the guy must have been seriously deranged to perpetrate such an atrocity.

Secondly he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt.
(Please dont try to mis-represent that statement)

As western economies worsen and living standards, pension rights, public services come under further attack,expect to see a backlash against the policies pursued by goverments in Western Europe over the last couple of decades.

Perhaps we may yet see Mr Powells "rivers of blood".....I certainly hope not, but action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM

There is an open thread on the Who did it part. I'd like to bring this thread back to how awful it is for the Norwegians, and see how they will become more open in response to this atrocity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM

Sorry wrong thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:21 PM

The mad, like the poor, will always be with us. The poor are far easier to identify and do something for than the mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:43 PM

What does "deranged" mean? And how is it relevant? This was clearly a very well planned action carried out by someone who remarkably well organised, highly articulate, and completely rational. Like so many other Nazis before him - and others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:59 PM

Logical, maybe. But in my book rationality demands a recognition of the realities of the world, and of the reality of other people.

He is clearly intelligent. He is capable of planning something effectively. I don't think that makes him not-mad.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 01:08 PM

On which basis much of Europe for much of the 20th century have to be judged as mad. Just for as start.

Possibly true. But not really a useful definition of madness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:46 AM

McGrath,

A psychopath is a person who is defined roughly as someone who is disconnected from any sense of empathy or understanding of the emotions of others.

Psychopaths are often intelligent and appear otherwise balanced, though they are without exception deeply narcissistic and motivated by selfish interests.

This guy fits that profile pretty comfortably.

The right wing connection aspect is a concern, but his behaviour clearly goes beyond the bounds of a healthy mental state.

All those who wish to excuse or to explain his actions via political considerations are deluded in the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Lox
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 09:48 AM

Correction,

"someone who is disconnected from any sense of empathy or understanding of the emotions of others."

should really read:

"someone who is disconnected from any sense of empathy or understanding of the humanity of others."


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:41 AM

"...someone who is disconnected from any sense of empathy or understanding of the humanity of others."

There's an awful lot of that around. At the heart of our society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:52 AM

Initial reports deem him to be sane. Regarding his motivations, it seems to reflect a growing feeling shared by many throughout Europe at present, only difference is, he took it to the extreme. Governments must take some responsibility when individuals act in such a way. They ignore the silent voices at their cost it would seem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:52 AM

""...someone who is disconnected from any sense of empathy or understanding of the humanity of others."

There's an awful lot of that around. At the heart of our society. "

Are you saying that the killer's psychopathy is common and "At the heart of our society."

I see a lot of greed and apathy and defeatism. Not as much homicidal psychopathy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 10:55 AM

I think most of Europe is pro-tolerance and sanity. I think that appeasing the homicidal bigots would be a grave overreaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: open mike
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 03:28 PM

this is so sad...I had not heard til last night....glad to hear the perpetrator is in custody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 11 - 11:09 PM

Now are they saying a terrorist cell, or is that just US hype?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 12:10 AM

When you gather a bunch of repressed men with xenophobic tendancies and love the allure of secret societies that hold guns sacred, you get Right Wing militias who know they are always right. They will fight for thier right to show the world how right they are. That usually requires acts of horrific destruction. Remember they don;t have tools, they have guns.

It is the same old story and evolution of madmen like Hitler and his cronies.

Scandanavia has its share of dark hearted fascism under the banner of Nationalism. Its been that way for a long time. The propoganda we here is about a democratic utopia, but people being irrational, thereis a dystopia lurking in the crevices of Scandanavia.

What is odd here is that that they did not target the Muslim "invaders" but instead, the children of the Democratic party.
I guess they a thought a forward thinking plan to rid Norway of liberals in the future was preferable to killing Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 12:38 AM

I assume that they did kill Muslims. One of the young victims had a name that could be associated with that religion, or could not..of course a girl named Peggy O'Toole could be a Muslim or a girl named Fatma Izbuk could be a Presbyterian. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:43 AM

Some clarification on figures (11th January 2011):

Oslo district contains about 950,000 people

Oslo (the city) has a population of 596,973 people

Innvandrer (Immigrants) most live in Oslo (the city) 170,204

That amounts to 28.5% of the population of Oslo (the city)

"Registered" as being followers of Islam are just over 95,000, or 16% of the population.

Today in schools on the east side of Oslo Fjord 95% of the pupils come from minority non-Norwegian speaking homes. This figure is so high because "native" or indigenous Norwegian parents take their children out of these schools because of the slow rate of learning due to poor language skills of the bulk of the class who only use "norwegian" while they are in school.

By 2025 the projection is that 4 out of every ten people in Oslo (the city) will be of immigrant descent.

Immigration in Norway is the "elephant in the room", a massive silent majority is extremely concerned about it. While France, Germany and the UK are secular Parliamentary democracies, Norway is a Christian Society, religion is still extremely important to the population, no political party would ever challenge the role of the church and expect to survive the next election.

Norway only became a country in 1905, the people are very proud of their country and are very "nationalistic". If you go and live in Norway - YOU MUST become Norwegian, Norway DOES NOT CHANGE to accommodate you irrespective of your language and culture. You live by their standards and you do not introduce your own. There have been massive reactions to such practices as "arranged marriages" and "honour killings" both totally unacceptable in modern Scandinavian society. The message from the majority is fairly clear, if that is how you want to conduct your lives - do so elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:49 AM

Teribus, further clarification

96 k is considerably less than 25% of 596 k


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 07:53 AM

I think I may have mentioned this elsewhere and it answers why the gunman targeted who he did.

He may have been against a perceived Islamic "invasion" of Europe (& Sacndinavia) but his target was the political party he associated with allowing and even encouraging this to happen.

mg asked why he had not been shot by a sniper. Had that political rally not been held on that island (owned by the Worker's Youth League), if it had been held in any rural community on the mainland the gunman would not have lasted 15 to 20 minutes before someone would have shot him. The country is awash with guns and people who know how to use them (Hunters; Bi-Athletes; Target Marksmen; Home Guard & Army Conscripts - all of whom, except the last mentioned, have guns and ammunition immediately available at home)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 08:01 AM

That's registered Jack.

You live in the USA correct? How many immigrants live in the USA according to official figures? Now how many immigrants live in the USA more? Less? The same?

Years ago I had to have my Passport renewed by the British Embassy in Oslo. I was asked to register my religion as the Anglican Church got a tax break on number of members. As I am not an anglican I refused. Lots of Muslims from the former Yugoslavia, from Turkey, from Palestine and other Arab countries come to Norway and hide their real nationality and their religion as they affect their employment prospects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 08:04 AM

mg

"of course a girl named Peggy O'Toole could be a Muslim"

Ehm No - If you convert to Islam you take an Islamic Name


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 08:10 AM

"Lots of Muslims from the former Yugoslavia, from Turkey, from Palestine and other Arab countries come to Norway and hide their real nationality and their religion as they affect their employment prospects. "

Teribus,

Admit it, you pulled that figure from your ass, and even if were so, 5 million people in the country, 170 k Muslims, all conveniently in Oslo city as you say, hardly a tsunami of immigration. If by 2020 as you say, they are 40% the still won't even have a majority vote for city council.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 08:48 AM

Now are they saying a terrorist cell, or is that just US hype?

You mean U.S. paranoia, don't you? Today Oslow, tomorrow Los Angeles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:04 AM

Breikvik himself talks of cells.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

My "enemy" is right on the button here.

Read and learn!

Well said Sir!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:07 AM

a "terrorist cell" by definition is simply a very small group of people, not directly in contact with any others. That is about the least scary thing in this whole discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 09:10 AM

But I'd not put too much credence on anything he says. Wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, and it should be investigated, and makes it sensible to isolate him - but he's all the hallmarks of a fantasist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 11:30 AM

"Teribus,

Admit it, you pulled that figure from your ass, and even if were so, 5 million people in the country, 170 k Muslims, all conveniently in Oslo city as you say, hardly a tsunami of immigration. If by 2020 as you say, they are 40% the still won't even have a majority vote for city council."


Do you work at being so deliberately obtuse? Or is does it just come naturally?

1: I told you where the figure came from an interview and the immigrant population of Oslo (the city) is according to figures published by the Kommune 28.5% (The guy in the interview stated 25%) - Admittedly not all Muslims only about 55% of them.

2: If that 170,000 is camped right next door to you and you lived in f**kin' China it would still appear that you had been "invaded" albeit "locally". In the good ol' US of A I dare say that the native Americans did not think that the Pilgrim fathers would be much of a problem - How many Palefaces to how many Indians?? - How did that pan out for the indigenous population Jack? Multiculturalism at work.

Oh you never did pay me the courtesy of answering my question about the declared number of immigrants living in the USA compared to the actual number including illegals. But come on Jack admit it you could probably take the official figures and triple them (how many amnesties have you guys had to have now?).

3: Your last sentance there Jack is breathtakingly stupid - they would politically own central and the eastern districts of Oslo - Then just wait for the next election.

Hells teeth I can see why people might be getting worried, what I completely and utterly fail to see is why 100-odd people the vast majority of them youngsters between the ages of 15 and 19 have to die just to attract attention of the nation in order that this twat could voice his concerns in a court of law.

By the bye, the sentencing available under Norwegian Law, is that if he is considered to be a continuing danger to society he more or less in theory can be held indefinitely - he goes up for review as his term comes to an end and he is just returned to prison until the next review. He more or less guaranteed himself that when he came out with the "Not criminally responsible bullshit".


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 01:19 PM

"From: Teribus - PM
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:05 AM

The "immigrant muslim community" of Oslo amounts to 25% of the population"

"I told you where the figure came from an interview and the immigrant population of Oslo (the city) is according to figures published by the Kommune 28.5% (The guy in the interview stated 25%) - Admittedly not all Muslims only about 55% of them."

55% of 28% is a little under 15% As I said before, even allowing for all of your hyperbole, you are off by more than 1/3.

Rather than continuing to restate the same stupid statement why don't you simply admit that you misstated the facts? That should not be so hard since you have already attributed the error to hearsay. Hearsay from some TV interview which you have obviously misinterpreted or misremembered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 01:38 PM

Jack I misunderstood and mistated what was reported - Happy??

Meanwhile, the situation remains very much the same and people in Norway are extremely worried about it and so they should be. The concerns voiced by the person interviewed are not rendered meaningless or irrelevant because he muddled his percentages.

While measures taken against a terrorist organisation as Bush did with Al-Qaeda and their Taliban hosts can halt that organisation dead in its tracks and get everybody muttering about asymmetric warfare. The lesson thrown out by last Friday's rampage shows what one person with a modicum of knowledge, a bit of training and a great deal of planning can do.

Through the strands of the intelligence communities web it is possible to detect the preparation and planning being undertaken by a group. It is virtually impossible to detect the likes of Breivik because his "security" is rock solid right up until he acts and by then it is too late.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM

"Meanwhile, the situation remains very much the same and people in Norway are extremely worried about it and so they should be. The concerns voiced by the person interviewed are not rendered meaningless or irrelevant because he muddled his percentages."


No I am not happy. I am not happy because you are not only careless and ill informed. You are expressing horrible bigotry. You are misstating and exaggerating to do so. My only comfort is that, ill informed and careless with the facts as you are, you have nearly no credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

And you have lived and worked in Norway for how many years Jack??


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:21 PM

I am an immigrant jerkwad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 02:30 PM

What a thoughtful memorial for those who died.
Well done, gentlemen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:15 PM

A lone obsessive like Breivik could have just about any kind of belief system, and be just as dangerous. Seeing him as somehow representing anything and anybody other than himself is to miss the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:34 PM

The horrible atrocities committed by Breivik must be condemned by all rational people.

However, that does not mean that there is not a problem with excess Islamic immigration in many countries, not just Norway.

Having an unassimulated minority in someone else's country will eventually cause problems. Likely lots of bloodshed or civil war.

All immigrants should ask to be accepted. Those who just show up uninvited are asking for trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:36 PM

You are right Sinsull, the moral should be small minded bigots reinforcing the purpose of the crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 03:59 PM

On radio Glen Beck said "The kids in Norway at that political camp reminds me of the Hitler Youth, who does that? Thats disturbing."

How can this man get it backwards everytime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:06 PM

I believe it's what he does for a living. Apparently there are lots of Americans who enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:10 PM

A lot of people on this forum who I hope would be disgusted by that statement admire and defend him as a "friend of Israel." Is Israel better off with or without such "friends?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:21 PM

Most people agree that the killer/killers are deranged, however I have pointed out time and again that they are inately as normal as you and I.

The conditioning inside a secret society combined with a near worship of guns and a like minded group of people feeding each other xenophobic fears until bigotry comes out thier ears is potent enough for normal people to join the darkside in surprisingly little time.

The social science experiments of assigning pretend prisoner or guard status shows the turn around to take only 3 days.
The experiments of normal people given a task of torture of another human will do so 80% of the time.

When children are put in competitive situations against a rival team conflict can be great.

Where there is hope for normal people resisting such social pressure when the opportunity for altruism exists. Altruism has a slight advantage.

Conforming to a group and its ideosyncracies is far more powerful for people who are repressed and lonely. Of course mudcaters being non conformists for the most part, singing protest songs and love songs gives them an advantage in being thier own person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:36 PM

I read a recent article on "hate crimes" in the US.

It said the 67% of all "hate crimes" are directed at Jews (2 % of the population) and only 2 % were directed at Muslims (3 % of the population).


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

I can believe that coming from a Jewish household, but the definition of hate crime might be leaving out many more "crimes of hatefulness" along racial lines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 11 - 04:42 PM

I think that is more telling about the "articles" you read than anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:08 AM

I think giving credence to this man`s hatred of a particular religious group is achieving exactly the outcome he wanted.

He represents a tiny group of extreme rightwingers (not so many of them in Norway) and to somehow make Muslims responsible for this atrocity is very manipulative.

A better way would be for all of us to look at our own bigotries towards any group and think how dangerous those feelings can be when they turn into generic hatred.

One answer is further restricting gun access, as we did in Australia after the Martin Bryant shootings. Our gun crime rate dropped considerably, and has stayed down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 06:10 AM

ps I've been planning a visit to friends in Oslo since early this year. One works in another government building, very close to the one that was bombed. He's grateful he wasn`t at work that day. I'll be interested to see what their views are when I get there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:37 AM

Stepping back to gain some perspective on this tragedy is, like stepping back into an abyss.

The bloody work of this home-grown fanatic will, no doubt, impact Norwegian society for years. No longer will people feel safe in their homes or in their towns, or even at a youth camp. It's hard to regain a sense of social sanity once it is challenged like this.

Racism, anti-Simitism, anti-Islamic sentiments, anti-immigrant paranoia all continue to challenge our own society's guiding principles.

I hope that the 10th anniversary of 9/11 passes as boringly uneventful but like all too many I dread what may happen.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:43 AM

"I think giving credence to this man`s hatred of a particular religious group is achieving exactly the outcome he wanted.

He represents a tiny group of extreme rightwingers (not so many of them in Norway) and to somehow make Muslims responsible for this atrocity is very manipulative.

A better way would be for all of us to look at our own bigotries towards any group and think how dangerous those feelings can be when they turn into generic hatred."

How can anyone take this view? This guy is obviously mad,and his actions inexcusible, but it seems clear that his rage was directed towards governments which operate an "open door" policy to immigration.
Most Western governments are presently being forced to start closing the door as the idiocy of this policy becomes apparent.

Being against unrestricted immigration has nothing to do with hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:49 AM

The biggest problem with "liberals" is that they like everything tidy and taped into little boxes.

Life is no moe like that, than it is equal or democratic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:52 AM

A previous poster stated that, "This guy is obviously mad, and his actions inexcusible"
Fair enough, he killed over 70 innocent civilians. But, wait a minute, the body count for innocent cilivian deaths as a result of the Iraq war is over 100,000! Does that make the British and American governments - and the armed forces - all "obviously mad" too?
And, if not, why not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:54 AM

"Being against unrestricted immigration has nothing to do with hatred. "

Bringing it up in this context has a lot to do with bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 09:03 AM

Jack...I was responding to Freda's post.

Many "liberals" here equate all opposition to immigration as "hateful"

You were quick enough to jump in an label me a bigot(above), when you should know very well that I am not.

This is symptomatic of people who define themselves by their labels,
I stated before that opposition to unregulated immigration is not confined to "right wingers"


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM

"On radio Glen Beck said "The kids in Norway at that political camp reminds me of the Hitler Youth, who does that? Thats disturbing." (Beck)

How can this man get it backwards everytime. - (Donuel)


Oddly enough Norwegians listening to the news reports on BBC World News actually made comments about this.

I believe the BBC described the Camp on Utya as being a "Youth Labour Camp"

One of the Norwegians on hearing this said, "That sounds terrible put that way it sounds like Nazi Germany in the 1930's, I hope people realise what sort of camp it really is and what sort of organisation was running this week-end rally."

So I don't think he (Beck) was that far off but it was a comment he should not have broadcast. Youth political organisations are all a bit suspect and should be viewed with great scepticism.

"I am an immigrant jerkwad." - Jack the Sailor

Question for you Jack are you a legal immigrant jerkwad, or illegal immigrant jerkwad, living in the US of A as you do having moved South from Canada?

Figures for legal immigrants to US compared to figures or estimates of illegals in the country? I still say that the illegals figure will far and away be greater than the figure for legals. Now tell me why any other country's statistics should be any different?


Some more figures for you. A bit out of date (2007) but indicative none the less:

- Immigrants in Oslo who registered their religion as being Muslim was about 7.5%

- Actual percentage of the immigrant community in Oslo who were muslim but who had not registered their religion was just over 11%.

Translate that to todays figures about 90,000 registered uplifted by a factor of 1.47 gives you? 132,300 so not too far short of the 150,000 stated by the guy I heard being interviewed on it.

Unless you can come up with a way to explain why someone who did not register his religion in 2007 suddenly wants to do so now for both himself and his family? So that you have a disparity in 2007 yet come 2011 you do not - it does not make sense.

Akenaton is right:

"Being against unrestricted immigration has nothing to do with hatred."

Breivik attacked the Governing Political Party, infrastructure (Government Offices) and their organisation (Youth Organistaion - the latter in the hope that he would kill a prominent Member of the Arbeiderpartiet Gor Harlem Bruntland), who he blamed for unrestricted immigration into Norway he did not attack any group based on their race, colour or religion.

Yet to hear anybody come up with an explanation why Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami claimed the Oslo Bombing? Or is it that something that those discussing these attacks just wish to have conveniently ignored? Why did they want everybody to believe that they had done it? To stoke up racial tension perhaps? And yet they cannot be accused of being racist - ridiculous.

Looking round various countries the following seems to be the pattern:

- In areas with little contact with immigrants there will be higher opposition in principle to immigration

- In areas of higher unemployment there will be higher opposition to immigration

The first is lack of knowledge, the second is economic nothing to do with hatred of race, colour or religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 10:42 AM

What's the point about speculating about the motivations of some Internet nut like "Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami"? Someone out there is always going to "confess" to just about anything that happens.

I imagine there was probably someone who claimed credit for the Japanese tsunami...


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 11:14 AM

"Someone out there is always going to "confess" to just about anything that happens."

Only limited to one per incident is it Kevin?

But no nut confessed to the 1993 attack on the World Trade Centre.

No nutter confessed to the 2001 atacks on the WTC and Pentagon.

No nutter claimed responsiblity for the London 7/7 attacks.

No nutter claimed responsibility for the Madrid 11/03 train bombings

Why did they claim responsibility for something they obviously did not do? It seems to me to be a reasonable question, as it would be proved conclusively to be a load of BS within hours of the incidents taking place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 12:23 PM

Didn't they? If you've checked you might be right, but I'd be very surprised.

Why do people claim responsibility for things they obviously didn't do? I don't know. But they do. "One of the most famous instances was in 1932, when 200 people came forward to claim responsibility for the kidnap and murder of the aviator Charles Lindbergh's baby in New Jersey." (From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7950613.stm">this BBC News Magazine site)

In a way it's the obverse of the coin for Conspiracy Theories. Something to do with wanting to be part of the action when something shocking happens.   Not a million miles from us writing posts here about it, it might be argued.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 07:28 PM

>>But no nut confessed to the 1993 attack on the World Trade Centre.
No nutter confessed to the 2001 atacks on the WTC and Pentagon.
No nutter claimed responsiblity for the London 7/7 attacks.
No nutter claimed responsibility for the Madrid 11/03 train bombings<<

I believe that you are wrong in each and every one of there cases. The Wiki page on 7/7 proves you wrong on that one. I really wish that you had enough respect for us to at least research the obvious before you Bull Shit ud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jul 11 - 08:30 PM

Jack the Sailor you write a lot but say very little.

"I believe that you are wrong in each and every one of there cases."

Should of course read:

I believe that you are wrong in each and every one of those cases.

If so point out where smart ass by the way are you a legal immigrant jerkwad or a an illegal immigrant jerkwad you didn't say.

" I really wish that you had enough respect for us to at least research the obvious before you Bull Shit ud."

Could you possibly rephrase that in English??

Please answer the questions that have been put to you before asking any others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:58 AM

I am unimpressed with advice in communication from someone to lazy to avoid hyperbole that, by comparison makes Glen Beck look fair and balanced.

Here is some plain English.

Put up or shut up.

Prove that no one else claimed responsibility for any of those incidents.

Or be considered a Bull Shitter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:13 AM

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/393042/july-25-2011/norwegian-muslish-gunman-s-islam-esque-atrocity?redirect=true


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 08:25 AM

Daily Show response


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:01 AM

Tell us who Mohammed Atef was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 09:14 AM

Teribus I have no interest in conversing with you. But I will point out your Bullshit. Be a little careful about it, stop insulting our intelligence and you will not hear from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:02 PM

The organisation who claimed responsibility for the 7/7 attacks in London was ......... wait for it ........... Al-Qaeda

Mohammed Atef was while still alive Chief of Operations responsible for the organising, planning and support of all attacks carried out by ......... wait for it ........ Al-Qaeda

The group or faction that took his name after he was killed in Afghanistan by forces attached to the US-OEF mission was part of which terror organisation ........ wait for it ....... Al-Qaeda

By Christ Jack if you had a brain you'd be dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 02:19 PM

I need to call BullShit again.

At least two groups claimed credit. At least one group was obviously a nutter claiming false credit.

It's not rocket science. Unless your world view is that all Muslims, are in the same group or that any people claiming to be part of Al Qaeda are not nutters.


Now please PROVE that NO one besides the perpetrators claimed credit for any or those attacks. Or shut up about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:02 PM

Good heavens Jack are you asking that I prove a negative?

Thought that was impossible. I made a statement you disputed it it is up to you to provide substantiation not me.

Khan tape mentioned Zawahiri, if Khan had received his training from the Atef group then all three could legitimately lay claim to responsibility all for the same organisation and all for the same cause.

The Islamist crowd that claimed responsibility for the Oslo bomb did so for one reason and for one reason only - they hoped to provoke a violent reaction in Oslo and in Norway against the Muslim community - they failed and the authorities were onto preventing that extremely quickly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:13 PM

Good heavens Jack are you asking that I prove a negative?

Good Heavens No! I am asking you to prove your claim. I know it is unprovable that is how I am showing everyone here that you are a Bull Shitter and and idiot. You claimed to know something that is not knowable and had the balls and stupidity to use that unprovable claim in an argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 11 - 07:16 PM

Here is a list of things you have to prove. You said it. Now prove it!

>>But no nut confessed to the 1993 attack on the World Trade Centre.
No nutter confessed to the 2001 atacks on the WTC and Pentagon.
No nutter claimed responsiblity for the London 7/7 attacks.
No nutter claimed responsibility for the Madrid 11/03 train bombings<<


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 01:01 AM

Already disproved your assertion over 7/7

You are saying that somebody else claimed responsibility for the 1993 attack on the World Trade Centre - Should be simple enough for you so who?

You Jack are a bigot and a fool, you are indeed an immigrant jerkwad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:39 AM

Wow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 03:47 AM

Whose turn is it in the barrel tonight?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 05:59 AM

There's something very clumsy about claiming a series of negatives ("No nut confessed to..."), and then, when asked to back-up that claim, responding "...are you asking that I prove a negative?"

"I am not aware of any claims..." might have been a way of avoiding that trap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:23 AM

That's a good point, McG. Unfortunately, when the tension and invective are ratcheted up the way they've been here and on the other 'Norway' thread(s), the concepts of careful construction of arguments and use of polished grammar have a tendency to leave the building.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:41 AM

And that is one reason why careful construction of arguments is important, since it tends to counter that tendency for disagreements to be ratcheted up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 07:07 AM

Right on the button McG.
BTW, hope your health's holding up. Good to have your sagely words around here again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 07:34 AM

The problem is that if he had said "I am not aware of", it would not have made his original argument and it would not have served his main purpose of belittling Kevin's argument. It also would not have pissed me off.

The fact is that Kevin was absolutely correct. There are nutters out there willing to claim almost everything. The Psych wards are full of people convinced that they are Jesus and Napoleon. To state categorically that it did not happen in several well known cases. is very reckless and arrogant. Is it not?

I also remember reports of different "groups" claiming responsibility for the 1993 bombing. Of course I do not remember the details. Such claims even then were common, even then they were little more than background noise.

Teribus has called me a bigot, he says I am a bigot because I am prejudiced against his ideas. That is not the definition I use for the word "bigot" is it yours?

This exchange has convinced me that Teribus, like many of his unfortunate political persuasion, is a Bull Shitter, talking in scientifically measured prose but pulling data out of his arse or out of the arses of the right wing xenophobic arseholes he likes to listen to on the radio. We should all take everything he says with a large grain of salt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 11:11 AM

But no nut confessed to the 1993 attack on the World Trade Centre.

You Jack are claiming that that statement is untrue decrying it as bullshit, yet when challenged to substantiate why you think it is untrue you are somehow unable to do so - sounds like its you thats doing the bullshitting.

In this instance the majority of those you did carry out the attack were either captured or killed. Operation financed by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

No nutter confessed to the 2001 atacks on the WTC and Pentagon."

Again Jack is unable to substantiate his claim that someone other than Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for this attack, so on the face of it that statement of mine is perfectly correct and it is Jack that is bullshitting.

No nutter claimed responsiblity for the London 7/7 attacks.

This one has already been dealt with only one organisation has claim responsibility Al-Qaeda, so unless Jack comes up with information to the contrary this claim stands as being correct.

No nutter claimed responsibility for the Madrid 11/03 train bombings

Those who operationally carried out the attack, those who committed suicide after the attack, were described as a loose cell. The technical support (the design and construction of the bombs used) was obtained from the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group who were taught to make the bombs in Jalalabad in Afghanistan by......wait for it.......Al-Qaeda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 11:28 AM

No pal. You are the bullshitter. You made the outrageous claim. You need to support it.

Think about what McGrath of Harlow said.

"I am not aware of any claims..." might have been a way of avoiding that trap.

Even after that you claim that the burden of truth is on me. You have given yourself license in an argument to claim everything that is unprovable supports your side. Be careful with this. It will lead you to delude yourself. It may even lead you to think that your Bull Shit arguments matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:32 PM

Ah, so in other words Jack you cannot substantiate your assertion that other organisations or groups claimed responsibility. Why not just say so. Put up or shut up, I have told you who did claim responsibility, now it's your turn to come up with your alternatives. If you can't then it is you who have been bullshitting not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 11 - 06:53 PM

My words are clear enough for anyone to read. No one needs your skewed interpretation of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:40 AM

Ah so definitely cannot come with the names of organisations or groups that claimed responsibilty for those attacks.

And your only complaint is that I did not "hedge" my bets in making the statement that I did - Pathetic.

Now tell me why the Jihadi Group attempted to claim responsibility for the Oslo Bomb? MGOH - Kevin I am asking a specific question, I do not want a whole rake of carefully hedged bullshit about, "well its what people do"

My belief is that they claimed it in the hope of fomenting trouble and creating a situation that they hoped to exploit in order to radicalise muslim youth in an area that really is rather peaceful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:13 AM

"Attack the missions of the United States, the UK, Australia and Norway and their interests, companies and employees. Turn the ground beneath their feet into an inferno and kick them out of your countries," - Ayman Al-Zawahri Taped Message aired by Al-Jezeera Television - Reported 21st May 2003

Oslo bomb 22nd July - Could this - www.norwaycup.no - have been the event that the terror group Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad wanted to stir things up at.

If so they have failed remarkably the tournament involving some 54 countries and thousands of young people is proceeding uniterrupted as planned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Monique
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM

The link Teribus provided doesn't work, here it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 06:15 AM

Early days yet, but there is growing evidence of a link between the killings and the English Defence League.
According to this mornings Irish Times, in what is described as a "rambling statement"... Breivik has claimed links with the league," though oddly, he thinks that they are "anti racist, anti fascist and anti Nazi, and he decries them for accepting non-white members"
Leader of the league, Tommy Robinson condemns the killings "but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up""
Ex League activist Paul Ray, now head of the newly revived Knight's Templars, who claimes to have provided the inspiration for Breitvik's actions, has been detained for questioning by the British police.
Whether organisations or groups have "claimed responsibility" they all seem to have crawled out of the same cess pit.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:46 AM

>>Ah so definitely cannot come with the names of organisations or groups that claimed responsibilty for those attacks.<<

Its interesting that at first he said "no nutter" which would mean no individual or group. But to refute his unsupportable statement, which he refuses to defend he now demands the names of organizations. This is the way the bigoted mind works. This is how one holds bigotry in one's mind in the face of reasonable exrernal evidence.

Will he stop before he completely destroys all credibility on this forum?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:54 AM

Again, Bull Shit by Teribus. Invoking alleged 8 year old statements on this thread and thus implying that the events were linked.

If Teribus believes this paranoid crap, he should be talking to a mental heath professional rather than polluting this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:03 AM

Overheated rhetoric "pollutes the thread" as well as "paranoid crap". Absolutely no point to indulging in it. Might as well stand in a corner and shout.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:22 AM

Overheated rhetoric ... "paranoid crap"

Hardly "overheated". It seems a reasonable & accurate description of what's been expresed by this individual.

Now "pollute" may be inaccurate, but not by much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:38 AM

"Will he stop before he completely destroys all credibility on this forum?"
Credibility????
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:41 AM

It was a rhetorical question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Wotcha
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM

We got the news on board ship via Polish satellite TV before leaving Lerwick for Stavanger. More than a bit of a damper for the Tall Ships event. It is a terrible thing. Lerwick held a suitable memorial (outdoor Church Service in the rain) service before the ships left: Eternal Father Stron to Save resonated with all. Upon arrival in Stavanger a minute of silence and flags at half mast was the order of the day. Flowers everywhere.    This will take considerable time to work through -- at the same time the Poles are just getting around to the aircrash that wiped out their president and senior leaders 18 months ago at Katyn... Scars that may never heal.

Blessings,

Wotcha just off the sea ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:52 PM

Thanks for that post. It was a nice one. I don't know this song or the word "Stron." "Eternal Father Stron to Save" could you please elaborate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:03 PM

GUESTWotcha

What ship? I sailed into Lerwick about 10 years ago on board the Norwegian barque Staadsrad Lehmkuhl. Coincidentally, just three weeks before last week's massacre, I was in Bergen, her home port, for a weekend, on holidays. The rest of our time was in Oslo - so it really hurts to watch them suffer. At the same time, of course, I'm lost in admiration of their reaction.

Regards


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 11 - 05:06 PM

"Strong"...
........................

One thing that has struck me is how impressive the Norwegians seen on TV have been in the way they have responded to all this.   

That includes the Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg. I kept on imagining how most British politicians I am accustomed to seeing on TV would have coped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 03:16 AM

Navy hymn


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 03:18 AM

"It was a rhetorical question."
It was a rhetorical response - met this feller before.
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 06:15 AM

"This is how one holds bigotry in one's mind in the face of reasonable exrernal evidence." - Jerkwad Jack

What a great pity therefore that no such "exrernal" or even "external" evidence reasonable or otherwise has been proffered by said Jack or anyone else for that matter.

Back to the terror group Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami and the lies they told. Without a shadow of doubt they did that to cause trouble and make a bad situation even worse. But in doing so they follow the precedent and example of existing and previous Muslim leaders

Ayman Al-Zawahri's message was used to lend "credibility" to their lies. But there is no bullshit involved with regard to the statement this terrorist made in 2003. It is an irrefutable fact that he specifically mentioned Norway as a target - or does Jerkwad Jack dispute that?

The one time leader of a faction of Arabs in Palestine Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini (The uncle of Yasser Arafat) deliberately propagated lies to foment trouble between the Jewish and Arab people of Palestine on at least three occasions before the Second World War resulting in riot, bloodshed and death.

Subsequently the people who Jack and his partner have elected to champion have consistently elected to chose the path of violence, terror and war to further their cause. That being the case they should then learn to live with the consequences of their choices and actions - everybody else on this planet has to what makes them the exception?

If the official UN definition of a Palestinian is someone who has lived there for two years, then the Jews are as much Palestinians as the Arabs and have as much right to live there as the Arabs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 08:40 AM

Go off and start another thread please, Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 08:42 AM

You could even stick a link to it in this thread, in case anyone wants to join you in a discussion of the things you want to talk about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 08:54 AM

Thank you Penny. That was lovely. I remember that hymn from my childhood in my Grandmother's Anglican church. I guess I was too young to be aware of the words. Beautiful. Beautiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:03 AM

Don't think I'll bother doing that Kevin and I think I've said all I want to on this. I have to brace myself for a funeral associated with this outrage early next week and just simply cannot be bothered devoting any more energy arguing with the likes of you or Jerkwad Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:23 AM

My sympathies to you, and all who are touched by this obscenity.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:01 PM

When a couple rescue 40 people under fire you might expect it to be an internationally reported story, yes?

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/190990/20110802/norway-massacre-oslo-shooting-utoya-anders-breivik-lesbian-couple-rescue-youth-c

Funny how the British media never noticed that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:10 PM

Your link didn't work Jack. I found this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Aug 11 - 07:23 PM

Fixed link:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/190990/20110802/norway-massacre-oslo-shooting-utoya-anders-breivik-lesbian-couple-rescue-youth-camp.htm

Some kind of limit on the length of URL I could copy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST, - AKS
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:02 AM

11 days later . . .

It doesn't seem so important now what the killer's motivations were for the horrific slaughter of so many innocents, or who &/or what claimed responsibility at the time, or any of the extraneous B.S. that often follows large newsmaking events.

What really matters is the tragic loss of lives . . .

NO more - - - and certainly NO LESS ! !
May all of their families know our condolences and find comfort in their memories of their loved ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:29 AM

"NO more - - - and certainly NO LESS ! ! "
Sorry, can't possibly agree.
As tragic as the killings are, the implications reach far beyond the events and those directly affected.
This massacre was carried out as an attempted rallying call to all racists - an attempt to "wake up Europeans" to the "threat of immigration and multi-culturalism".
There are those out there who believe, and openly advocate that anybody who is different from us is in some way inferior and a threat to our way of life and should be "dealt with" or, as somebody put it, "action needs to be taken now to reverse some of the policies which have created the "time bomb"
Already, links are becoming apparent between the killer, the English Defence League and crazies like the newly-revived Knights Templars - ignore this and the Breiviks of this world win.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:44 AM

This morning, while looking for something totally different, I found a report about a murder in a Kent town, involving a family from the Baltic area. There were comments. A lot of them were thoroughly poisonous, ignoring the tragedy in order to express opinions about immigrants. One used the username BNP. Some tried to counter this.

Years ago on a site supposed to be about re-uniting school friends, there were message boards dripping with xenophobia.

Even more years ago, as a teenager, I wrote to my local paper on an issue about a particular ethnic group, and was sent obnoxious mail in response. My mother intercepted some (I don't know how she knew what it was like) but I did read one before it was burned.

I don't know what the solution is about these people. By now, one would hope that there would have been some effect from education, but it obviously cannot counter the home background.

Breivik, I now hear, had had plastic surgery to make himself look more Aryan. That and testosterone suggest serious self image problems, as well as the racist delusions.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:55 AM

I was in Oslo a few weeks ago. It was a sunny day. Young men holiday maker clothes. beautiful young girls in summer dresses. All e-mailing and chatting on their mobile phones in the sunshine. Sad to think some them may now be dead.

Did anyone ever claim responsibility for the Birmingham pub bombings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 05:37 AM

"Did anyone ever claim responsibility for the Birmingham pub bombings? "
There was no need - the authorities had the information on who actually carried them out years before the Birmingham Six were released - read Chris Mullins' excellent 'Error of Judgement'.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 10:15 AM

The "cigarettes" defense?

In the picture shown the killer has that same strange infantile placid look on his face as Osama Bin Ladin has in many of his pictures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:44 AM

Jim,
"ignore this and the Breiviks of this world win."

So, what should be the correct response to a lone, deranged psychopath?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

Step up security. Do not discuss him in the context of politics. Look for manifestos and keep an eye on the authors. Monitor fertilizer and gun sales. Have plastic surgeons to report anyone who asks to look more Aryan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:56 AM

Agree Jack.
Jim, had the same crime been committed by a lone Jihadist as a blow towards establishing an Emirates in Europe, would you make the same comment?
He would doubtless have made connections to extreme Islamic groups.

Are you perhaps exploiting this appalling crime to push your particular viewpoint?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:00 PM

In response to a lone Jihadist as a blow towards establishing an Emirates in Europe: Step up security. Do not discuss him in the context of politics. Look for manifestos and keep an eye on the authors. Monitor fertilizer and gun sales. Have plastic surgeons to report anyone who asks to look more Aryan. But do not call him a "Jihadist" that furthers his aim. Anti-social lunatic who happens to have attended a mosque would be more to the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:08 PM

Speaking of 'Aryan', I came across an unusual name a week ago.

I manage an apartment building and process many applications for tenancy.

One man put down as reference his friend, "Aaron Nation". There is no way I would rent to either him or his friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 12:25 PM

You know I was wondering why I was getting no job offers.

Here are my references

Axel Murderer
Heddy B. Job
Newt Gingrich


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:31 PM

Again I agree Jack (not about your referees.)

The existence of one nut job, far Right or extreme Islamist, should not influence the debate about levels of immigration, multiculturalism, integration, ....

They are both irrelevant to informed, rational debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Penny S.
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:40 PM

Aaron Nation? Where did he think Aaron came from?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:39 PM

"....lone, deranged psychopath?"
Lone, deranged psychopath - do you know something the rest of us don't?
As I have already pointed out, early days yet - we have no idea if Breivik was acting alone - he has already claimed to have been in contact with the English Defence League and their respose has thrown little light on the accuracy of those claims - "Leader of the league, Tommy Robinson condemns the killings (they would, wouldn't they!) "but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up"" Empathy if not active co-operation.
Brevik's and Paul Ray's statements that he has been in touch with and inspired by Ray, ex EDL and now head of the Knights Templars, has been taken serious enough by the police for them to have detained Ray for questioning.
We know that back in the late 1980s there was a European League of Fascists - The Singers Club abandoned its venue at the Cora Hotel in Woburn Place in protest when the hotel manager accepted a booking from Marine Le Pen for a week-end conference there.
Of course, none of this is definite enough to reach any hard and fast conclusions - certainly not a claim of Breivik being "a lone, deranged psychopath" - the Norwegian police are considering whether or not to charge him with "crimes against humanity".
"What should be the correct response to a lone, deranged psychopath" - if that is what he is?
One of extreme caution - the Norwegian police are still attempting to find out if he acted alone; he cerainly has sympathisers elsewhere, if not active supporters, and, as you know yourself, the world is full of racist nutters who would act on their beliefs that, for instance, all Muslims (particularly males) are culturally tainted and need to be sorted out - ah - if only they could find the bottle to come out from behind their computer screens!!!
"Are you perhaps exploiting this appalling crime to push your particular viewpoint?"
Veiwing the situation based on the evidence at hand can hardly be described as "exploiting" and I certainly make no apology for holding the veiws that I do on racism, even if I didn't have the benefit of being handed them by "impeccible sources".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:44 PM

OK how about a deranged psychopath who may or may not have acted in accord with other lone, deranged psychopaths.

Other than a full and thorough investigation of the man, his actions and associations, which I assumed was self evident, the proper response remains the same.

I would not, as you have done include any other group or individual with him until concrete evidence is provided that others are involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:53 PM

He was a far Right fanatic.
Of course he made contact with far Right individuals and groups.
Of course he had conversations with them.
My understanding is that Norway believes he acted alone.

Please do not start suggesting again that I have ever posted a racist idea, or that I am racist.
I have not, and am not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

"My understanding is that Norway believes he acted alone."
Do you have an impeccible source for that?
The British police think both his and Ray's statements are serious enough to be acted on - he claims links with the English Defence League and with The Knights Templars, his actions were aimed at "waking up Europe"; god knows there are enough nutty racists around for some to possibly have heeded that call (we even have evidence of appeasers on this thread).
"I would not, as you have done include any other group or individual with him until concrete evidence is provided that others are involved."
What evidence do you want, another massacre? Surely you act on the side of caution where behaviour such as this is concerned?
I suggest you re-read Tommy Robinson's statement "the slaughter might wake Europeans up" fairly close to Breitvik's own.
As I said, early days; too early to take chances.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 08:07 PM

"Do you have an impeccable source for that?"

It has been widely reported that he is believed to have acted alone.

He has made links with far Right groups and individuals, as you would expect in the age of the internet.
A lone, obsessed Jihadist would have established links with extreme Islamist groups.
What would be the difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:02 PM

The attempted bomb attack in Exeter was by a lone deranged jihadist with links to extremists.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5619151.ece
Another lone Jihadist with links to Islamic extremists.
She stabbed an MP in stomach.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11682732

Neither their nor Breivik's crimes should be used as evidence in reasoned political debate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 11 - 10:02 PM

Jim, Accusing him of NOT acting alone in the Mudcat is doing nothing to fight crime. It is eroding your credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:10 AM

"It has been widely reported that he is believed to have acted alone."
I'll take that as a "no" then.
The investigations have hardly started when you are suggesting that the police call off the hounds - I wonder why?
You have been presented with evidence that links this massacre with two racist groups in Britain - you have the public response to one of those groups, which you haven't even bothered to acknowledge, so here it is once again for you to ignore:
".....but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up".
There are other such groups scattered all over Europe and the stated aim of this guy was to stir such groups into action.
There have already been violent racist incidents in some of the former communist states, attacks on Roms and on immigrant workers.
And in the light of these attacks the governments concerned should sit on their hands - yeah, right, fits in perfectly with everything you have argued on racism so far!
"....accusing him of NOT acting alone"
Not accusing him of any such thing SJ, I am suggesting that until we know whether he was or not, and if his wake-up call has had any effect, you don't take chances, racism is too near the surface in Britain and elsewhere to ignore any possibilities, especially when you get statements like this that pass for serious debate on the subject of mass murder - not unsimilar to the reaction of the English Defence League:
"This guy is obviously mad,and his actions inexcusible, but it seems clear that his rage was directed towards governments which operate an "open door" policy to immigration.
Most Western governments are presently being forced to start closing the door as the idiocy of this policy becomes apparent.
Being against unrestricted immigration has nothing to do with hatred."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM

Jim,
"The investigations have hardly started when you are suggesting that the police call off the hounds"

I somehow doubt that my posts will influence them much.
I am confident that they will explore the possibility of accomplices.
It really has been widely reported that he is believed to have acted alone.

His contact with far Right groups, as I keep saying, is what you would expect.
Even if he did act alone, others could be convicted of incitement, as happened with the female Jihadist I referred to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:45 AM

And Jim,
" fits in perfectly with everything you have argued on racism so far!"

I have only ever argued that it is abhorrent, as is your ongoing desperation to smear me with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:48 AM

Jim...you never seem to tire of posting quotations out of context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:57 AM

"I somehow doubt that my posts will influence them much"
I'm sure it won't - just look upon your insistence that the investigation into whether he acted alone is complete as confirmation of an earlier opinion of you.
Ake;
"Jim...you never seem to tire of posting quotations out of context."
Your statements have made position quite clear - perhaps you'd like to expand on them?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:46 AM

Jim,
"your insistence that the investigation into whether he acted alone is complete"
"My insistence"!!
Why do you say this stuff about me??!
What I actually said was, "it is believed he acted alone"!
What is your objection to that true statement of the current situation Jim???


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 07:25 AM

Another one bites the dust....


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:05 AM

"it is believed he acted alone"!
Where?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 09:35 AM

Backwoodsman
"Another one bites the dust.... "
You are of course right, this squabbling over inanities is certain to wreck yet another thread - apologies.
This enquiry has only just started - nobody knows anything for certain, whether the killer acted alone, if he had support from within or outside the country, whether he will be charged with murder or, as has been suggested, crimes against humanity, or will be declared not fit to plead due to insanity.
We cannot possibly know if his "wake-up call" will meet with any response; it is far to early to make definitive statements and it is both irresponsible and/or agenda-serving to make them.
This mornings press announced that the Norwegian police have launched what they estimate will be a year-long international enquiry into how he financed himself with money salted in bank accounts all over the world; the enquiry will involve the police forces of Britain, America and the Nordic countries.
At the present time we know nothing definite and that is how it will remain for a long time to come
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 10:23 AM

So associating his actions in this thread with English Defence League and with The Knights Templars, simply because the deranged lunatic claims links with these groups is, at best, premature?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:07 AM

Just as referring to him a deranged lunatic before he has even been given a psychiatrist, let alone having seen one, is premature, do you mean?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 11:47 AM

Or indeed the secret adopted son of Osama bin Laden avenging his father's death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:03 PM

No I think the actions are proof enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 12:04 PM

Random selection Jim.

Police are increasingly certain that Anders Behring Breivik acted alonehttp://itn.co.uk/world/25055/Norway+police+Breivik+acted+alone
Breivik Acted Alone, Says Norway Intelligence Chief
http://www.businessinsider.com/norway-bomb-anders-behring-breivik-oslo-shootings-2011-7
Norwegian domestic intelligence chief Janne Kristiansen has told the BBC no evidence has so far been found linking Anders Behring Breivik with far-right extremists in Norway or elsewhere.

But Ms Kristiansen said she thought he had acted completely on his own.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14303363


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

When there is no news, gossip and speculation fills the space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:28 PM

Just be careful what you wish for Jim.   :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 03:29 PM

Jim, you said "the implications reach far beyond the events and those directly affected."

If he acted alone, why are the implications greater than for attacks by lone Jihadists?
If he did have support from some group, why are the implications greater than for attacks by Jihadists supported by Islamic terror groups?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 04:41 PM

"If he acted alone,"
As your own examples have made clear, whether he acted alone or not is so far a matter of opinion, and couldn't be anything else given the short time since the incident took place. I have no idea whether he had help within Norway and have no opinion on the matter.
I have pointed out that he has claimed to have been in touch with groups outside Norway, including Paul Ray, ex-English Defence League and The Knights Templars, and that his statement has been confirmed by Ray, who has been questioned by the British police - presumably because they believe it to be possible.
Perhaps today's Daily Telegraph might help understand why the "implications are greater than for attacks by lone Jihadists?".
Jim Carroll

Norway attacks: Is the man who inspired Breivik a Briton?
After killer Anders Breivik claimed that he had a mentor in Britain, fears are growing that terrorism from far-Right extremists is becoming a real threat here.
By Gordon Rayner and Matthew Holehouse
7:30AM BST 30 Jul 2011
Could it happen here? From the moment it became clear that the gunman who carried out the world's worst mass shooting was a white supremacist, the question facing every political leader in the West was whether they had been blind to the threat of terrorism from the far Right.
Anders Behring Breivik may be "insane", as his lawyer put it, but he is certainly not alone in his paranoid hatred of multiculturalism, nor is he the first extremist to believe that murdering his countrymen would make him, in his own words, "a hero".
David Copeland, let's not forget, murdered three people and injured 129 when he detonated three nail bombs in London in 1999 during a 13-day campaign targeting the black, Bangladeshi and gay communities. Since then a stream of British fascists has been convicted of plotting similar bomb attacks they believed would trigger a race war aimed primarily at the spread of Islam.
So it should have come as no surprise, perhaps, that Breivik was in regular contact with supporters of the English Defence League (EDL), the latest far-Right group to crystallise around a hard core of anti-Islamification extremists. The EDL is mentioned 29 times in Breivik's manifesto. He claimed to have 600 EDL supporters among his Facebook friends. Almost inevitably, London was the city where he claimed to have embarked on his "crusade" after joining a secret society of anti-Islamic "martyrs".
His description of the inaugural meeting of the "Knights Templar", originally a medieval Christian order that is now a symbol for far-Right extremists, appears to have been written by someone who has swallowed a Dan Brown novel: there are rituals involving skulls, candles and signatures in blood; ancient noms de guerre (Breivik's was Sigurd the Crusader) and a Masonic hierarchy for members."

PS
Ake:
"Just be careful what you wish for Jim."
Sorry - don't follow you - threat - promise - what?
I do understand that your responses so far are remarkably similar to those of the EDL - surprise-surprise!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,English Martyr
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:26 PM

I never cease to be amazed by the sophistry and dissembling whih Keith applies - and this is NOT a personal attack.

One of the most ridiculous post I have read refers to the fact that he Keith "believes the weather forecast " .....and so "does not have an opinion of (his) own" as weather forecasters are experts and so we should believe what these experts say..... Oh dear, oh dear!

As to why there is a need to (seek to) divert this particular thread into a discussion of "islamist jihadists" as Keith appears to want to, well I can only guess.

The fact remains that the Oslo crimes need to be treated on their own, the relationship of the perpetrator to far-right European fellow travellers is a legitimate subject for consideration.

Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A.

"I believe the weather forecasters. I have no opinion of my own".

Quite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM

EM,
"The fact remains that the Oslo crimes need to be treated on their own, the relationship of the perpetrator to far-right European fellow travellers is a legitimate subject for consideration."
I agree.

"Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A. "
I think it reasonable to make comparisons.
Many commentators on the day described this attack as having the "hall marks" of Islamic terror, and Breivik consciously aped their terminology.
As Jim says, there is a cause for concern that there may be more attacks by the Far Right.
This was not the first after all.

I do tend to assume that tomorrow's weather will be as forecast.
That does not make it my opinion.
I have neither the knowledge, data or training to provide weather forecasts.
Is that an unusual position?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 11 - 06:31 PM

I'll let it go this time, English Martyr. You say it's not a personal attack, but you coulda fooled me. Please address issues, not persons. If you can't do that, I'll have to start deleting your messages.

Seems to me that if you want to hide behind anonymity and not register with a real name, then fairness dictates that you should have no right to address other posters by name. Anonymous near-insults just aren't welcome here.

-Joe Offer, moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 04:10 PM

Sorry Joe,
I can't see too much of a personal attack in English Martyr's posting.
"Personal attack" has now become a knee-jerk defence for arguments Keith is unble to answer, making it extremely difficult to elicit reasonable and honest responses from him.
Give us a break - I don't believe the weather forcast too often - do you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Aug 11 - 08:34 PM

Jim...thats a laugh, your own posts are full of personal insults and attacks....In fact you are the worst offender on this forum, with perhaps the exception of Lox, who is completely beyond the pale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:01 AM

Thanks Joe.
Jim, I did not bother to point out the personal attack, and I answered all the points.
You do not like the weather analogy?
OK.
A doctor tells me I have cancer.
I believe him, but it is his opinion not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:50 AM

Sorry to take up this thread with nonsense of this sort, but this will be my last comment on it here.
Whether or not I am "the worst offender...." may or may not be the case; on a subject as serious as racism I expect there to be strong - often over-the-top discussion, especially when racist statements are made in the course of that discussion - I am prepared to give and take as much as people feel the subject merits and am happy to accept as much stick as I give.
All of which is beside the point here.
I think, and said so, that Joe over-reacted to what I believe was a fairly subdued offering by a guest - I certainly have made my opinion of Keith's beliefs clear in far stronger terms.
I don't know if you have been told you have cancer Keith, or if you were using it as an analogy; if it is true, you have my deepest sympathy, but it in no way alters my opinion of your ideas.
Nothing more on this from me here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:16 AM

Just an analogy Jim, thanks all the same.
Have we discussed racism?
Certainly no member has expressed racist views.
Your opinion of my beliefs is flawed because you are totally wrong about my beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

Just a casual observation but the contribution of anyone, considering the subject of this thread, who chose to join it under the name of "GUEST English Martyr" was always going to be highly suspect.

1: "As to why there is a need to (seek to) divert this particular thread into a discussion of "islamist jihadists" as Keith appears to want to, well I can only guess."

2: "Seeking to suck in(to this topic) Islamic jihadist associations is suspect and points, once more, to a decidedly political agenda on the part of Mr Keith of A."

Nothing whatsoever to do "as Keith appears to want to be". Please correct if I am wrong here but an Islamist group very early on in the passage of events did attempt, rather pathetically, to claim responsibility for the bomb in Oslo. On the other hand NO right wing extremist group has sought to claim responsibility at all.

That being the case, and IT IS THE CASE, if publicity is the sole objective in raising their concerns with regard to immigration, why have there been no claims from the racists who wish to bring this topic to the fore and see an end to immigration from muslim countries? One simple, rational, explanation could be that Breivik DID ACT ALONE.

Personally I will wait and see what such investigations as are ongoing turn up. My gut feeling is that they will conclude that he did act alone and that there is no link to any "movement", its very seldom on this forum that I whole-heartedly agree with MGOH, but Kevin is right in what he stated earlier - this guy is a fantasist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:43 PM

"Please correct if I am wrong "
OK - you're wrong:
Paul Ray of The Knights Templars and ex member of the English Defence League has not only claimed that he was in touch with Breitvik, but also said he (Ray) provided the inspiration for the bombing - can't get any closer to a claim of responsibility than that.
On Brit who has been in contact with Breitvik via a psuedo-military chat site on the Net, in one memorable quote, says "he seemed like a nice bloke.
"why have there been no claims from the racists who wish to bring this topic to the fore and see an end to immigration from muslim countries?"
"Leader of the league, Tommy Robinson condemns the killings "but he does not want to decry the beliefs that led to Breivik's actions.... "the slaughter might wake Europeans up"
That's a show of solidarity if anything is - it's even been echoed on this thread.
The authorities are taking these contacts seriously enough to have shown disquiet as to whether Breitvik's call to action has been heeded - I'd rather see them err on the side of caution than allow are home-grown nutters have another go - wouldn't you?
"this guy is a fantasist"
Aren't most racists who belive their national origins, culture, complexion, religion, whatever makes them superior to other races "fanaticists" to one degree or another?
"....name of "GUEST English Martyr"
Might have agreed with you if I didn't find many of the Mudcat adopted names odd - to say the least.
Terribus has always struck me as being somewhat pretentiouly militaristic... but there you go; it takea all kinds...
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:11 PM

It would be truly surprising if he had not been "in touch" with like minded fanatics.
All fanatics of all their multitudinous, varied and strange beliefs find soul-mates via the internet.
Also folkies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:30 PM

In the reports I have found, Ray only thinks that his blog may have inspired Breivik.
How much credence do you give to this twat in armour Jim?
He claims to have rejected Breiviks approaches and is not claiming to have knowingly inspired anything.

What difference does it make if he was or was not inspired by all the nuts on the net?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM

"in touch" with like minded fanatics."
Like I said, the authorities aren't taking any chances; why encourage thm to do otherwise; especially as one racist fanatic has just accounted for rather a lot of young people in the name of anti-immigration - a cause not a million miles away from some people.
I was doing electrical work in the pub in Dean Street, Soho, a few weeks before the nail-bomber made his feelings known about homosexuals, so please don't say "it can't happen here" - it can and has.
I wonder why some people are so keen to quote "experts" on the one hand, and try to tell them how to do their job when it goes against the grain of your own particular philosophies - funny that!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:48 PM

Claiming responsibility for an atrocity - truly or falsely - makes tactical sense for an organisation in some circumstances, but not always. It is a way of asserting power - but it comes at a cost.

Circumstances alter cases. Especially where there is widespread abhorrence of what has been done, it can make better sense to avoid any claim of responsibility, but to encourage the idea that the culprit is a lone individual, driven to take extreme action by social and political faults in society - with the implication that similar things can be expected to happen again.

It appears to have been common practice in the Northern Ireland for responsibility for particular atrocities to be laid off to some non-existent grouplet, or just left floating without any claim.

The bottom line here is, we just don't know. The failure of organisations who share Breivik's views to claim responsibility tells us nothing whatsoever. As would be the case equally if there were such claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:10 PM

"I wonder why some people are so keen to quote "experts" on the one hand (sounds like me Jim), and try to tell them how to do their job when it goes against the grain of your own particular philosophies "

No one here is trying to tell anyone how to do their job Jim.
They do not read our forum anyway!
And what do you mean " against the grain of your own particular philosophies "
What philosophy have you made up for me now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 06:09 PM

Ah so Jim, the short version of that is that there have been no claims of responsibility from any right-wing group - None at all.

I mean really, as an "authority" Paul Ray of "The Knights Templars"!!! "Jesus-H-Come-Dancing-Christ" they cannot even get the name of their supposed historic roots right

And talking about getting things right - Who is "Terribus" when he or she is at home?

The "nail bomber" who made his feelings known against homosexuals targeted who?

Rhetorical question he struck in accordance with his own prejudices against that specific community in a very localised way.

Breivik made his feelings known against unrestricted immigration and targeted who?

Rhetorical question he struck at the political party he held responsible for allowing and/or encouraging(according to his perception) immigration to Norway, he did not strike against the immigrant communities themselves - He could have done but specifically did not.

The bottom line Kevin is that if Breivik had any help or assistance whatsoever, the Norwegian authorities will find that out, as I have said before my guess is that they will find nothing of any substance at all, had he truly been acting in concert with others - he would have succeeded in hitting his main target - he failed because he was delayed by traffic - he failed because he was acting alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 02:31 AM

Jim, we all want to know what led to this crime.
We can be sure that it will be investigated and exposed.
The evidence so far is that he had no accomplices.
It seems to be very important to you to believe that he did.
Why Jim?
You also are trying to suppress discussion of the absence of conspirators.
You say because it might stop the police doing their job, but you can not possibly really believe that.

Do you want there to be a conspiracy because that suits your philosophy?
Are you trying to exploit these killings for that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:19 AM

"It seems to be very important to you to believe that he did."
Where have I ever said that and what possible "exploitation" can there be in not taking chances? I might just as well suggest that you are you trying to draw the attention away from the fact that there are racist organisations in Britain and elsewhere that peddle race hatred in order than they can get on with their scheming unmolested.
Don't you dare accuse me of exploiting this situation - it wasn't me who made the link between Brietvik's actions and Muslims.
Nor was it me who suggested that he might have a reason to complain and that the relevant governments should start listening to those complaints - ".....driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian government" - a clear enough suggestion, to me at least, that the Norwegian authorities were partly to blame for this massacre.
I don't know one way or the other whether he had accomplices, neither do you, nor does anybody else, and it would be murderously irresponsible to rule out any possibility until we know the situation for certain.
These people are not 'politicos' who only organise themselves to win votes at the next election. They are inciters of hatred who work to draw attention to their particular twisted causes by whatever means possible, and attempt to incite people to act on those causes, whether it be by putting a cross next to their candidate's name at the next election, or by throwing bricks through the windows of your local Asian corner shop.
If the police think it worthwhile following up Ray's claims, and if, as the Daily Telegraph article suggests:
"...fears are growing that terrorism from far-Right extremists is becoming a real threat here", what on earth's your problem in supporting their doing so - are you trying to make political capital of the situation by suggesting that they are not doing their job properly?
I have nowhere suggested that taking a racist threat seriously might "stop the police doing their job", or if I have, where?
You, on the other hand, are suggesting that taking seriously Breitvik's "wake-up" call is a waste of time and resouces - why?
"Who is "Terribus""
He's the miss-spelling of some twerp who seems to want to identify himself with a feudalistic Scots war-cry.... any typo in a storm - what!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,Non-opinionated Weatherman
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:53 AM

Right on!

Er, what way IS the wind blowing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:16 AM

A simple question for you Jim Lad, "Who is Brietvik and what were his actions?"

Pssst - "Teribus" is actually the title of a song.

"They are inciters of hatred who work to draw attention to their particular twisted causes by whatever means possible, and attempt to incite people to act on those causes, whether it be by putting a cross next to their candidate's name at the next election, or by planting bombs in shopping centres so as to inflict greatest number of deaths and casualties amongst the innocent"

Now who on earth does that bring to mind? What was the tally in the end 3,500 odd dead and over 36,000 maimed and injured. Oh yes there are plenty of organisations that warrant thorough investigation and the fullest prosecution by the authorities I couldn't agree more. The sooner they get on with it the better, but when it comes to prioritising in line with the degree of threat and capability that each pose, I know the ones that would come top of my list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:49 AM

"Psst Teribus" is actually the title of a song."
Psst - it was also a war-cry at the battle of Flodden - thought everybody knew that.
Could also be a tour bus taking visitors to a chocolate factory, of course!
"Who is Brietvik and what were his actions?"
He is a mass murdered who slaughtered young people to bring attention to, and hoped to get support for his racist cause; certainly succeeded with the former, seems to have gathered a few supporters for the latter - here and elsewhere.
"What was the tally...."
When the typos fail to hide the fact that someone has run out of petrol wth his arguments, try a thread-drift; who knows, it might work.
here are plenty of actions worthy of examinaion - Catholics killing Protestants, Protestants killing Catholics, troops massacring unarmed demonstrators, nations using chemical weapons on civilians, internment without trial, torture (aka "special rendition")..... the list is endless.
So unless you want to start a thread coveing them all, I suggest you stick to the topic in hand, which is a massacre carried out as "a wakeup call" against immigration and multiculturalism, and how it should be investigated and dealth with - wake up boy - you'll never pass exams while you're half asleep!
"I know the ones that would come top of my list."
So do we - after all, why should you bother your arse about a murderous fascist?
Now tell me again - why should we forget that there might be bunches of brain-deads out there who might heed Brietvik's wake-up call, and call off the investigation??
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 08:37 AM

"if Breivik had any help or assistance whatsoever, the Norwegian authorities will find that out..." Let us hope so. But given the wide range of possibilities that "any help or assistance" covers there is no guarantee that they will be able to achieve that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 09:46 AM

War-cry at the Battle of Flodden was it? Thought the Salvation Army came along much later than that.

Whose war-cry at the Battle of Flodden Jim Lad? The Scots Army? Somehow strongly doubt that. I can find no mention of it not even in Niall Barr's new book on the battle, or in any of the eye-witness accounts of the battle.

1: "Who is Brietvik and what were his actions?"

He is a mass murdered who slaughtered young people to bring attention to, and hoped to get support for his racist cause; - The answer to the question as stated by Jim Carroll


2: "Now tell me again - why should we forget that there might be bunches of brain-deads out there who might heed Brietvik's wake-up call, and call off the investigation??" - Jim Carroll

As far as I am aware no-one named Brietvik has even be accused of murdering anyone - FACT. Neither you nor anyone else for that matter can have any idea at all regarding what "bunch of brain-deads", regardless of political persuasion, might be influenced by this fictional character (Brietvik) you have latched onto (I am sure that there may very well be a Mr. Brietvik somewhere, who would not be at all pleased in you dragging his name into this). All of which sort of indicates the faux-outrage and concern penned by Carroll. It tends to rob your argument of a great deal of credibility if you cannot even be bothered to get the name of the man in custody for the bombing and the shootings right. The man who oddly enough has not sought to deny his crimes, the only thing he denies is "criminal responsibility" for them.

As far as I can determine you and you alone are the only person on this thread attempting to give this man Breivik (Note spelling) and "his cause" any oxygen. As far as I can determine the Norwegians are handling all this a damn sight better than you appear to be doing - they are just letting the police get on with the job.

Perhaps you can show me where I have advocated that all investigations related to the terrible crimes perpetrated in Oslo and Utya should be dropped - Or is that just you making up shit again - as you normally do.

"But given the wide range of possibilities that "any help or assistance" covers there is no guarantee that they will be able to achieve that.- MGOH

Oh Kevin I think that everything connected with Breivik's life is now under a very powerful microscope and that it will be gone over with a fine tooth comb and Police Forces all over the world will co-operate to the fullest as and when required.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 09:49 AM

"if Breivik had any help or assistance whatsoever, the Norwegian authorities will find that out..."
The concern seems to be for what might happen outside Norway; whether there are likely to be any copycat incidents.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:44 PM

"Terribus has always struck me as being somewhat pretentiouly militaristic... but there you go; it takea all kinds."

Nothing pretentious about him. He makes more sense than many, and imo, that includes the person who made the above quoted remark about him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:23 AM

Prosecutor Christian Hatlo says that after 40 hours of questioning police are fairly certain Anders Behring Breivik acted alone and that he appears to be telling the truth.

Hatlo told the AP on Wednesday that police have been able to verify much of what Breivik told them about the attacks and that they have not discovered "any direct lie, yet."


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:52 AM

[Teribus]
Whose war-cry at the Battle of Flodden Jim Lad? The Scots Army? Somehow strongly doubt that. I can find no mention of it not even in Niall Barr's new book on the battle, or in any of the eye-witness accounts of the battle.

The tradition is that it was the warcry of the men of Hawick, used at that battle after centuries of use in more local fights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teribus_ye_teri_odin

Hawick Common Riding

I play the tune for those words (or rather the pipe march version of it) about once a week on average. It's one of the best known tunes in Scottish tradition and a fair proportion of people involved in Scottish trad know the backstory. (It would never occurred to me that anybody on a folk music forum using it as a handle would not have intended to allude to all of this).

Where does the Salvation Army come into it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

I don't know if I am agreeing with 999, but I always found Teribus to be straight forwardly militaristic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:20 PM

War Cry. Salvation Army newspaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:00 PM

"Teribus ye teri odin or teribus an teriodin ([ˈtirɪbəs ən ˈtiri ˈodɪn]) is popularly believed to have been the war cry of the men of Hawick at the Battle of Flodden Field,[1]"
You do have a thing about typos - don't you - try arguments, they usually have more effect - stupid boy!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:42 PM

Ahh - Popularly Believed To Be - so that makes it definite then??

"References to the "war cry" teribus an teriodin do not appear much before the early 19th century." - conveniently omitted from same wiki article quoted by Jim Lad - Flodden occured when in the early 19th Century Jim? I though Flodden took place on 9th September, 1513 - No wonder the Scots lost Jim they shouted their war-cry 300 years too late so nobody heard it.

The evidence looks pretty shaky as an actual war-cry, "Teribus" is however well known and recorded as being the title of a song. Now who said what was what again? How's that for an argument - Jim Lad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:07 PM

The song "Teribus" is the oldest of the Hawick songs - written by James Hogg (The Ettrick Shepherd) in 1819 - His original title for it was "The Colour" but it became universally known and accepted by the shorter title "Teribus" (First word of the chorus)

The tune dates back to the 16th Century and is known as "The Eternal Air".


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

Take your word for it - never read it through; doesn't make it any less pretentiously militaristic - so I suggest before you take a pop at others, "look to thyself" - which was my only reason for referring to it in the first place.
All that aside - perhaps you'd like to explain why the pursuing of the combtants (I assume you refer to both republican and loyalist terrorism) of a long-dead conflict, and inflicting damage an on-going peace process, takes precedence over the following up of a recent massacre aimed at inciting race hatred and further killing.
In spite of your claims to the contrary, a likely link has been established between two English fascist organisations and the killer - shouldn't you get your priorities right Torpiodus lad?
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:00 PM

The point is that folklore has labelled that song as a war cry for a VERY long time; Hogg adapted something well known in his day. He didn't make the folk beliefs about its significance up. Everybody in southern Scotland then thought it had militaristic connotations, and almost everybody today who knows the song at all still thinks that.

It looks like you picked your handle without having much of a clue what it signified.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:13 PM

Jack n' Jim......you've been holed below the waterline, please try to sink gracefully! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:37 PM

"It looks like you picked your handle without having much of a clue what it signified." - Jack Campin

Just goes to show then Jack that what things "look like" and what things "actually are" can be as different as chalk from cheese, especially when, as the author of the sentence quoted above, you know the square root of sod all about me or what you are talking about.

By the bye - The "war-cry" if it ever was one at Flodden or anywhere else is "Teribus Ye Teri Odin"

My handle is "Teribus" which is the title of a song, and that I originally pointed out to Jim Lad, so "Teribus" apart from being the title of a border song that tells an old story - signifies nothing.

Jim is not strong on detail, history, or accuracy, it would appear that neither are you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 02:41 AM

"please try to sink gracefully..."
Typos and other diversions seem to have provided a convenient enough smokescreen from the subject for the appeasers to slip out of the back door, it would appear.   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:11 AM

Appeasers?
I thought I had been following this thread closely, but I missed those.
What did they say Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:03 AM

Maybe Jim is referring to something that "Mr. Brietvik" may or may not have whispered in his ear.

Mr.Brietvik being one of those "Typos and other diversions" introduced as "a convenient enough smokescreen" to mask Jim's total ignorance of "the subject" under discussion. You Keith should know better than anyone else how much Jim just likes to "make stuff up" and then harp on about it as though it were fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 07:57 AM

"What did they say Jim? "
One of them said the killer had a a valid reason to be disgruntled - it was all down t Government policy and immigration - you've had the quote The other said that as we all know that there is no connection with any other organisation, concentration should be switched elsewhere - Ireland maybe?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:00 AM

It is OK to be disgruntled Jim.
No-one is justified in expressing that in criminality, never mind mass murder of innocents!
And no-one has said that they are.

"The other said that as we all know that there is no connection with any other organisation,"

No one said that Jim.

" concentration should be switched elsewhere "

No-one said that either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:05 AM

Ah more made up stuff Jim?

These "links" you mention are not new revelations but rather old news. Ah a meeting between eight people, nine years ago, of which there has been no repetition.

Friends on Facebook!!! - As many on this forum know - Not the most secure environment to conduct the workings of a secret society eh??

"Paul Ray of The Knights Templars (LOL!!!) and ex member of the English Defence League has not only claimed that he was in touch with Breitvik, but also said he (Ray) provided the inspiration for the bombing - can't get any closer to a claim of responsibility than that." - Jim Carroll

Not quite what the man (Paul Ray) says here in the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/video-british-blogger-denies-breivik-links-2327524.html

"One of them said the killer had a a valid reason to be disgruntled" - Jim Carroll

Who? Where? When?

"The other said that as we all know that there is no connection with any other organisation, concentration should be switched elsewhere - Ireland maybe?" - Jim Carroll

Who? Where? When?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:29 AM

Both f these statements attempt to implicate the Norwegian Government's policy in these killings.
Tell me how they don't
Your statements continue to claim that he has notbeen in touch wit outside organisations - evidence strongly sugest that he has.
Show me that this is not he case.
"Who? Where? When?"
"Now who on earth does that bring to mind? What was the tally in the end 3,500 odd dead and over 36,000 maimed and injured. Oh yes there are plenty of organisations that warrant thorough investigation and the fullest prosecution by the authorities I couldn't agree more. The sooner they get on with it the better, but when it comes to prioritising in line with the degree of threat and capability that each pose, I know the ones that would come top of my list. "
As I said - appeasment
Jim Carroll

"Secondly he appears to be an extreme Nationalist who has been driven over the edge by the policies of the Norwegian govt.
(Please dont try to mis-represent that statement)"
"This guy is obviously mad, and his actions inexcusible, but it seems clear that his rage was directed towards governments which operate an "open door" policy to immigration.
Most Western governments are presently being forced to start closing the door as the idiocy of this policy becomes apparent."


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 10:16 AM

If that last post of yours was directed in reply to my questions could you possibly write it in English that is in some way comprehensible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 11:42 AM

"Your statements continue to claim that he has notbeen in touch wit outside organisations"
Don't be silly Jim.
Of course he has.
All fanatics spend hours on the net "in touch" with all the other fanatics.
It would be very surprising if this one were different.
(I have explained this to you twice before Jim.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 11:51 AM

300. The other one I wanted got closed at 299.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 12:15 PM

Richard probably is in touch with other centennial posters!


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 03:01 PM

"I have explained this to you twice before Jim."
And I've pointed out to you that the authorities have expressed concern that other rabid right wing organisations might carry out copycat actions, so they suggest that until all the facts are known they have urged that no chances are taken.
Nor, at this stage, have the Norwegian police been able to give anything other than an opinion that he was probably acting alone, so they will not be taking any chances either - despite your assurances!!
Perhaps they should just have asked you - then Keith could put your name down on his list of impeccable experts", thus saving him the trouble of taking responsibility for his own opinions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 08:19 PM

"And I've pointed out to you that the authorities have expressed concern that other rabid right wing organisations might carry out copycat actions, so they suggest that until all the facts are known they have urged that no chances are taken.

Really?? Where?? Security alerts for any sort of attack are heightened where?? As far as I can make out they remain much the same as they did before. In the UK the major security concerns remain to be the Real IRA and Islamic Fundamentalist motivated attacks in that order. In Norway where I have been just recently there is no evident concern at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:42 PM

Responses as suggested by Jack

"Step up security:
- Do not discuss him in the context of politics.

- Look for manifestos and keep an eye on the authors.

- Monitor fertilizer sales

- Monitor gun sales.

- Have plastic surgeons to report anyone who asks to look more Aryan.


Well outside of a few eedjits on this forum nobody is dicussing Breivik in the context of politics.

Any idea how many manifestos are written, and written perfectly legally? How would this stand with the right of free speech and self-expression?

"Monitor fertilizer sales"? Already done and was done in this case, that alone tells you nothing. Breivik only made one purchase which on face value was completely above board. It is not only sales you want to monitor it is verified use you need to keep track of.

"Monitor gun sales"? Already done, but illegal guns are available to any crook that wants them, so this measure guarantees nothing whatsoever.

Requests to Plastic Surgeons?? You are kidding right??


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 09:45 PM

- Have plastic surgeons to report anyone who asks to look more Aryan

Yes you eedjit on this forum, it was a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM

You are a million laughs Jerkwad


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:11 AM

I don't like right-wing fascists, left-wing totalitarians, violence-prone religious fanatics of any kind, etc. And threads like this remind me why I don't like dilettantes of any stripe.

Anyone still want to talk about music?


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:16 AM

I'm Against It

And if that's not clear . . .

I'm Against It


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 07:46 AM

"As far as I can make out they remain much the same as they did before."
If you mean we are still in a situation that a right wing nutter can plan and carry out slaughter on a massive scale to publicise his racst agenda - yes, things do remain as they did before - which is exactly why a full investigation is necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 08:10 AM

Unfortunately for you Jim Lad the investigations so far all indicate that Breivik (Note Spelling) did act alone.

Anything cancelled? Nope? Any heightend Security that I could detect going to or returning from having attended one of the funerals? Nope

Add on targets for those other "cells" and accomplices you wish to scare us with - The Norway Cup (Great target if your beef is with foreigners coming to Norway) - The "Flower" Procession in Oslo about 220,000 at that.

Of course investigations are ongoing but your suggested links to EDL and other UK right-wing groups have so far turned up nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 10:26 AM

"Unfortunately for you Jim Lad the investigations so far all indicate that Breivik (Note Spelling) did act alone."
And one more time Terrytune, I have not disputed that he PROBABLY did act alone - still not a known fact though - as you say, "the investigation so far" which you seem so anxious to call off.
I have nowhere mentioned "cells and accomplices" - that is solely your own invention.
The concern all round - except from you apparently, lies with the nutters who could decide to copycat his actions (aren't you into guns? If not, there are certainly plenty of nutters out there who are).
Read the Telegraph (hardly a leftie scaremongeing publication) article you keep ignoring. Sorry, your "Come out with your hands up and we won't harm you" plea doesn't really ring true somehow.
Given your track record, I'd sooner take their word for it, thanks all the same.
Why are you so anxious to convince us that there is no risk from these maniacs I wonder?
Still relying on the typos as a replacemet for argument I see.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:33 PM

"In spite of your claims to the contrary, a likely link has been established between two English fascist organisations and the killer" - Jim Carroll - Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

So you've never mentioned cells and accomplices, eh? No link, likely or otherwise, has been established - has it.

"a recent massacre aimed at inciting race hatred and further killing." - Jim Carroll - Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

Care to explain to us how Breivik's attacks could possibly incite race hatred? I can see how the claim by Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami could do that, and that is why they did make their claim of responsibility, but not Breivik's attack on the Government Office in Oslo or the Arbeiderpartiet Youth Organisation rally on Utya. Breivik's motivation can be described as racist, his selected targets most certainly were not, they were demonstrably political in nature.

The full investigation into Breivik will not prevent any future "copycat attacks", particularly if it is found that he did act alone.

So I am "anxious to call the investigation off" am I. Care to provide any evidence in support of that supposition of yours?

Do I believe that the UK faces greater terrorist/security threats than any possible future Breivik-type copycat attack - Of course I do, but at no point at all have I ever proposed or suggested that the investigation into Breivik be called off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 01:46 PM

A link has been established and Breivik's stated aim was at inciting race hatred and furer killing wher does that imly "cells and accomplices" - it was a "wake up call" against immgration - all somewhat evasive, don't you think.
Your downgrading of the investigation to less important than punishing combatants in past conflicts, and your attempt to ridicule those who are concerned about symapathy response by British fascists by introducing "assocates" and "cells" into he discussion is indication enough that you would like to see it ended.
BTW was I right; are you a gun-nut?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 02:22 PM

Here is a video of part of an Oslo Art Walk dedicated to the victims. I hope it can be viewed by anyone regardless of where you are.
http://vimeo.com/27497831


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 02:26 PM

Making up stuff again Jim Lad Tsk, Tsk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 02:29 PM

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 12:41 AM

You are a million laughs Jerkwad <<<<

That is a million more than you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Oslo Bombing and Shooting at Youth Camp
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 11 - 04:10 PM

"Making up stuff again Jim Lad Tsk, Tsk. "
Avoiding your own statements again Terminus Tsk, Tsk!
Jim Carroll


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