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BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies

josepp 11 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Rapparee 11 Jul 11 - 01:14 PM
Dave Hanson 11 Jul 11 - 03:05 PM
Penny S. 11 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM
gnu 11 Jul 11 - 03:57 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 11 - 04:18 PM
josepp 11 Jul 11 - 05:40 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 11 - 05:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM
josepp 11 Jul 11 - 07:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Jul 11 - 07:51 PM
josepp 11 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM
josepp 11 Jul 11 - 08:55 PM
Greg F. 11 Jul 11 - 09:29 PM
Bill D 11 Jul 11 - 09:48 PM
Rapparee 11 Jul 11 - 09:54 PM
josepp 11 Jul 11 - 10:42 PM
Rapparee 11 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM
josepp 11 Jul 11 - 10:56 PM
Rapparee 11 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM
josepp 11 Jul 11 - 11:28 PM
Dave Hanson 12 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM
Penny S. 12 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM
Greg F. 12 Jul 11 - 09:15 AM
josepp 12 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM
josepp 12 Jul 11 - 12:25 PM
josepp 12 Jul 11 - 12:27 PM
Donuel 12 Jul 11 - 12:44 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 11 - 01:48 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 11 - 01:49 PM
Greg F. 12 Jul 11 - 01:53 PM
josepp 12 Jul 11 - 11:34 PM
josepp 12 Jul 11 - 11:39 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 11 - 07:12 AM
Penny S. 13 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 13 Jul 11 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Josepp 13 Jul 11 - 11:18 PM
GUEST,Josepp 13 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM
GUEST,Josepp 13 Jul 11 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 14 Jul 11 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,TIA 14 Jul 11 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,Josepp 14 Jul 11 - 05:03 PM
Smokey. 14 Jul 11 - 05:29 PM
Greg F. 14 Jul 11 - 08:20 PM
Uncle_DaveO 15 Jul 11 - 03:36 PM
bobad 15 Jul 11 - 05:12 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 11 - 05:25 PM
Musket 16 Jul 11 - 08:33 AM
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Subject: BS: Scientic heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:59 AM

More follow on this thread but this will do for now. Things just getting TOO boring around here.

http://news.yahoo.com/lost-world-atlantis-landscape-discovered-170805677.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: GUEST,Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 01:14 PM

I'd be more impressed if it wasn't 56,000,000 years old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:05 PM

What does ' scientic ' mean ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:11 PM

So it isn't a heresy at all, it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation of perfectly reasonable evidence and absolutely nothing whatever to do with anything resembling Atlantis, except that it is a sunken landscape. No people. No temples. No imagined history.

Peer reviewed and all.

If it's boring here, why be here?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM

Scientific Hareraces


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 03:57 PM

What were they smokin JtS?


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 04:17 PM

Ether


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 04:18 PM

Click here
----------Link fixed. JoeClone------------------


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:40 PM

Sorry, I was home for lunch but didn't have much time to hang around so that should have said "scientific."

JtS use the clicky function or I won't look at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 05:52 PM

S'matter- dontcha know how to cut & paste? Or are you just lazy?

Unreal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM

You won't look!

I am am decimated!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Scientic heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 07:47 PM

One estimate is that Michigan was once home to tens of thousands of mounds. Mounds were so prevalent in the state once that the very road that my workplace is located on is called Mound Road for that reason. Few, if any, remain today having been plowed under and built over.

Normally, when we talk about burial mounds and such, we picture Indians. But should we? Who built the mounds of Michigan? The truth is, we don't know. Even the local Indian legends say the mounds existed when the first Indians arrived. They further state that the moun-builders were an "evil people" called Yam-Ko-Desh or "prairie people" and that they also minded copper. Archaeological evidence, however, turns up no connection to the copper pits or Upper Michigan and mounds. So now we have two mysteries: Who built the mounds and who mined the copper?

By the 1880s, farmers were digging up mounds constantly and finding very strange things. According to reports, there were cups, vases, knife-blades, "caskets," etc. The strangest of them were the copper and shale plates. The numbered into the thousands. They were examined by an Illinois attorney named Henrietta Mertz who cataloged the pieces. The Smithsonian fired off charges of fraud. The objects can't be real, they said. But Mertz, hired because of her expertise in detecting fraud, could find nothing fraudulent in them.

The problem is this: if the plates are real, it would mean a large, organized community of Christians of some sort lived in Michigan and built the mounds. So, this is either a huge fraud or one of the most significant archaeological finds ever. The sad thing is, hoax or not, they need to be studied and evaluated on the basis of that study--not on what science finds convenient to spout off about. Yet, science has shown so little interest that over half of this collection has been lost due to the fragile nature of the artifacts, most of which are sun-baked clay. Many have crumbled or been shattered due to carelessness and inexperience. These things unearthed by people all across the state. It would be impossible for anyone to have faked these and then put them in the ground for others to find.

People were tearing into mounds wherever they could find them. Only one in ten had anything in them but the yield was still a rich one. But science still insists they have to be fakes. Well, maybe they are. But what if they aren't? There are 13-month lunar calendars depicted here, for exmple. Certainly not impossible to fake but pretty imaginative and not without some good artistic skills. These artifacts need to be preserved and studied seriously and systematically. If they are real, we will need to radically modify our views of history. If they are fake, then at least we'll know:

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/09c2c9b0720f3ef904adc033763986cc.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/82f1b4b8b9da6cbcab5733ce6380de7a.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/74780392244123170ce8c4729b8b96eb.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/cf57eacd0fffa9f4691328cd840af609.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/8e80cdf4e81751793942a48fffc09a5a.png

http://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/517fc4fdd40cfcc574227cbddc520d97.png

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics1.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics3.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics7.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics4.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics8.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics9.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics10.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics12.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics13.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics14.jpg

http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics15.jpg

Professor W.B. Hinsdale of the University of Michigan surveyed some of the mounds in 1925 and came across this skull fragment which was printed in the Detroit News. It dates from before the Common Era. The hole is not ragged or jagged. The area around the hole is pristine. The hole is neatly cut. Who did this, how and why?

http://info.detnews.com/dn/history/mounds/images/3.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 07:51 PM

two mounds fivr cents


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM

As for the copper miners. They minded about 1.5 billion pounds of it starting around 5000 BCE. They opened thousands of pits across upper Michigan. The level of mining sophistication would have required 10,000 men to spend about 1000 years developing that technology. Lake Superior copper had turns up in old Indian implements from Michigan to South America but still the bulk of the copper must have gone overseas simply because there is no trace of it in the Americas. Indeed, there are archaeologists who claim Lake Superior copper can be found in tools and artifacts from all over the ancient world well before the Common Era. Who transported it, whereand how?

Even stranger, why did these mysterious copper miners leave behind no traces whatsoever of their culture other than the tools they used to mine? No petroglyphs or rock art, pottery, figurines, hunting implements, dwellings or burial mounds have ever been found. Only their stone mauls and copper axes used to chip out ore and separate it from the copper have been found along with copper knives, arrowheads and spearheads.

Moreover, they appear to have dropped their tools and walked off the face of the earth. Their mauls are found at mining pits left as though the miners had set them down and gone home (wherever their homes were) for the day, ready to resume work in the morning but that morning did not come. No one knows why or even when this happened although it would seem that 1200 BCE would be the cut-off point.

Who were they and where did they go all the sudden?


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 08:55 PM

Apologies for saying "minded" when I mean "mined."


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 09:29 PM

They were examined by an Illinois attorney named Henrietta Mertz who cataloged the pieces. The Smithsonian fired off charges of fraud.

Well, I for one would certainly take the word of a person with no education, training, or expertise in the field over that of the dumb bastards at the Smithsonian.

The problem is this: if the plates are real, it would mean a large, organized community of Christians of some sort lived in Michigan and built the mounds.

You are obviously out of your fu$king mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 09:48 PM

"...the bulk of the copper must have gone overseas..."

"...there are archaeologists who claim Lake Superior copper can be found in tools and artifacts from all over the ancient world..."

My...what interesting assumption are embedded in those remarks. Saying "the bulk MUST have" assumes it was not only 'mined' but used...

And there are archaeologists who claim almost anything when confronted with a strange set of 'data'.

Archeology is an area with a high amount of competition to discover new finds....yet this Michigan stuff seems to have been barely investigated.

It seems to me that the question "...why did these mysterious copper miners leave behind no traces whatsoever of their culture other than the tools they used to mine?" can have a number of possible answers...including that there WAS no serious 'culture' doing real 'mining'.

It will be interesting to see what develops once pure speculation wears thin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 09:54 PM

Oh, check out Cahokia Mounds, and the culture up and down the Illinois River, especially around Kampsville, Illinois. Also the Serpent Mound and related mounds in Ohio and the animal mounds in Wisconsin. There are mounds in Arkansas (big bunch down there) and clear to the Gulf. There is considerable evidence that a healthy trade existed between the "Anasazi", the peoples of the Pacific Northwest, the Plains people, the Mississippian culture, and the Woodland cultures of the Eastern US. Evidence includes, but is not limited to, cowrie shells and copper.

If you want to investigate something, look into the similarities between the Clovis points and those found in Neolithic France -- and the Western Shore of Maryland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:42 PM

As far as the Anasazi, it was funny that researchers who had been up on the Fajada Butte said the sun casts specific shafts of light on the spiral engraved in the rock. The learned professors and scientists at the universities said no way. Impossible. They couldn't have had the technology or knowledge. Just seeing what you want to see--grow up!

And what happened? It was proven that the spiral was an astronomical meter for reading the solstices, the equinoxes as well as the major and minor lunar standstills and true full moon that only happens once every 19 years or so. In fact, it was only ancient astronomical device that calculated the movements of the sun and moon both.

If the so-called intelligentsia had their way, we never would have discovered the Anasazi sun-dagger. But, as Greg F says, who we to question the Great Smart Ones whose knowledge is pure and incorruptible? Who have no agenda and no biases? They've NEVER been wrong!


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:52 PM

Check out the Woodhenge at Cahokia Mounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:56 PM

I first learned of the copper pits in high school when I took Michigan History. It's part of the curriculum to teach us about the copper pits and mysterious miners. I was always intrigued by it.

Never saw this article before but it has most of my info in it so it proves I'm not bullshitting anyone.

http://www.exploringthenorth.com/cophistory/cophist.html


This one's worth a look:
http://www.dayooper.com/CopperCulture.htm

The Bronze Age is a period in Western European history typified by the usage of… bronze. The Bronze Age may be a term used daily in schools across the world, but there is one major issue that is seldom debated: where did the required components, tin and copper, originate from?
Indeed, though it is undoubtedly the case that Europe had a "Bronze Age", archaeologists have accepted that much more copper was used than what they have been able to attribute to European mines. So where did an extremely large part of the copper come from? The answer, as bizarre as it may sound, could be America. It is known that during the European Bronze Age, large quantities of copper were mined in North America. However, no-one is able to answer as to what became of the copper that was mined there.
If we were to add the two problems together, do we have the solution? Of course, the answer for the accepted scientific dogma is "no", as it argues that there were no transoceanic contacts in the Bronze Age, and hence copper could not have been traded from the New to the Old World. But perhaps there is sufficient scientific evidence available that will alter the assumptions of the scientists.
--http://www.philipcoppens.com/copper.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM

Or Newgrange, for that matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 11:28 PM

And if you want to get into all the menhirs and huge stone astronomical observatories of ages lost to modern memory, well, they're still standing because they were built so well. No doubt many skeptoids wish they had crumbled to dust long ago so they could deny their existence but no such luck.

Then there's the Trilithon at Baalbek, Lebanon. The largest dressed stones anywhere on earth weighing up to 1200 tons! Who quarried them, relocated them and stacked them together so tight you can't slip a need between them and there's no mortar holding them together?

We don't know because we have no idea who built it or even when. The Trilithon has been there at least 5000 years but probably far longer. It was already ancient when the ancient Romans built temples on it. That's how huge it is. According to the Arabs, it was always there.

Here we see the Trilithon. Look very closely at the bottom of the photo and notice the man standing there. That's how big these stones are. Ever odder, the big long ones are resting on shorter, smaller ones without crushing them despite weighing a minimum of 800 tons! And the design is so good, it has stood for thousands of years. But then I'm sure the Smithsonian would tell us it's impossible and therefore doesn't exist--end of story.

The Trilithon

The largest stone of all was never removed from the quarry. It has remained where the builders left it sitting thousands of years ago. Think of that:
The Stone of the South


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:51 AM

josepp reminds me of Lizzie whatsername, the Cornish binge poster, only on larger scale, in fact maybeee !!!

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Penny S.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM

Interesting that the copper sources in the UK have not been worked out in ancient times - North Wales for example. also interesting that there have not been shipwrecked ingots found on any route from the New World to the Old, whereas the Old World has a lot of such ingots, so loss in transit was quite common.

And who makes sun dried clay plates and expects them to last in use?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 09:15 AM

Never saw this article before but it has most of my info in it so it proves I'm not bullshitting anyone."

Sorry, but no. The "article" doesn't prove jack$hit.

"Exploring The North Inc." is a website design company, fer chrissake. No knowledge or expertise in the points under discussion. Their "article" cites no sources.

The "dayooper" page- posted by the owher of a rock shop & metaldetector site also with ostensibly no credentials, cites articles from the 1880's and nothing more recent than 1915- long before modern archaeology & modern investigative methods.

Bullshit pure & simple, embraced by the fundagelical and the feeble-minded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:19 PM

The plates are not made of sun-dried clay. They are made of shale or copper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:25 PM

////there WAS no serious 'culture' doing real 'mining'.////

The copper pits number in the thousands and the mining operation went on for centuries. Look it up. My guess is that Indian tribes used slave labor--i.e. others captured in war--to do the mining and did not allow them to leave anything of their old identities behind. I can't believe any overseas power had a colony here for that long. Had to be a native culture that did it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:27 PM

////Exploring The North Inc." is a website design company, fer chrissake. No knowledge or expertise in the points under discussion. Their "article" cites no sources.////

I pulled that info from an article on the mounds from the Detroit News so that's likely where this site got it. Keep swinging, maybe you'll hit something other than your own teeth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 12:44 PM

The near mint engraved images suggest that Egyptian overlords are the rulers of some sort of enterprise.

There is minor evidence that show Egyptian voyages made it as far as Australia and even South America. But Michigan? Brrrrrrrr


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:48 PM

...from the Detroit News so that's likely where this site got it.

"Likely?" More bullshit. Either they did, or they ddidn't.

Pre-dating "I saw it on the internet, so it must be true" was "I read it in the paper, so it must be true".

Rave on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:49 PM

The near mint engraved images suggest that Egyptian overlords ...

The "near mint" images more strongly suggest forgery in the latter part of the 19th century.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 01:53 PM

WAIT A MINUTE!

Engraved copper plates?? Its OBVIOUSLY the Angel Moroni's scratch copy!

And evidence of prehistoric Mormonism!


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:34 PM

That other people than American Indians were in the North America a very long time ago is already well established. Spirit Cave Man of Nevada is the oldest known North American mummy at 9400 years and appears to be a Polynesian-Ainu hybrid as does the now famous Kennewick Man (but not before certain Indian tribes and Nordics both claimed him as their own).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_Cave_mummy

Then there are the red-haired giants which have been found in many places around the United States. Some of these said to stand in excess of 8 feet.

http://www.helium.com/items/1653360-who-were-the-red-haired-giants-of-early-north-america

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si-Te-Cah

Sensationalism? Hoaxes? Or is there something to it?

We would have at one time scoffed at the notion of Causasoid red-haired, blue-eyed mummies in China until they were discovered. They are dubbed "Tocharians" and lived about 3000 years ago. The real mystery is, where did they come from? Twin-peaked hats were found in some of the tombs belonging to no known culture.

If the Tocharian mummies had been discovered in America (and who is to say they haven't been?), very little would have been said of it. This leaves the field wide open to kooks who want to talk about Atlanteans and Lemurians and Nephilim from Planet X but the I get the feeling that's how the scholars want it. Weave such a skein of bullshit around it that they don't have to explain it. They can just laugh it off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: josepp
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 11:39 PM

//////WAIT A MINUTE!

Engraved copper plates?? Its OBVIOUSLY the Angel Moroni's scratch copy!

And evidence of prehistoric Mormonism!//////

Not surprisingly, you're behind the eight-ball by more than a century. The Mormons were highly intrigued by the plates and did indeed believe them to left by from the angel Moroni. In fact, most of the artifacts are in the care of the Mormon Church these days which is fine with me because at least they are in good hands. I trust the Mormons will preserve them at all costs. The man who organized the collecting of the plates and artifacts in Michigan, however, was a Catholic priest. He would be a very strange Catholic priest who would forge thousands of artifacts to simply fool the Mormons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 07:12 AM

Useless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 12:18 PM

OK, artefacts. Not the plates - but you can see how I thought it. I was visualising dinner plates, not engraved ones. But who makes anything from sun baked clay and expects them to last?

"The problem is this: if the plates are real, it would mean a large, organized community of Christians of some sort lived in Michigan and built the mounds. So, this is either a huge fraud or one of the most significant archaeological finds ever. The sad thing is, hoax or not, they need to be studied and evaluated on the basis of that study--not on what science finds convenient to spout off about. Yet, science has shown so little interest that over half of this collection has been lost due to the fragile nature of the artifacts, most of which are sun-baked clay. Many have crumbled or been shattered due to carelessness and inexperience. These things unearthed by people all across the state. It would be impossible for anyone to have faked these and then put them in the ground for others to find."

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 12:36 PM

Ok let's cut to the chase.

You don't have Stonehenge, you don't have recorded cultural artefacts other than native American as we know it and you want something to play with so you can join the history club.

Have Jesus! You can say he visited Michigan, or even that the dudes in The Holy Land knocked his legacy.

I'll not be concerned if you want some Christian heritage prior to William Brewster. All the same to me.

(Reminds me of the possibly apocryphal tale of two USA visitors to The Bodlien Libray in Oxford. They looked around the building and were suitably impressed. "Hey, is this pre war?" asked one. "It is pre America" said the porter.

Sorry, not trying to get all anti USA here, but claiming Christian groups from far back is a bit embarrassing for your more sane citizens.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: GUEST,Josepp
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:18 PM

Thanks, Willie, I've just heard all from you I need to hear. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: GUEST,Josepp
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:30 PM

In 1879, John Wesley Powell (1834-1902) was named as head of the Smithsonian's Bureau of American Ethnology. While history portrays him as a man who admired the American Indians, we must remember that he, like virtually every white man of his time, was a racist and held an unquestioning belief in the superiority of the white race. He was once a field man who spent a good deal of time among the indigenous peoples but his professed admiration of the Indians was academic and purely intellectual. It was otherwise cold and unfeeling. He had no true respect for their way of life and believed as Jefferson before him that the Indians needed to be converted to the white man's way of life (read as "put them in debt and then take their land as payment") otherwise they stood firmly in the way of westward expansion. Powell called this forced conversion that resulted in a kind of brainwashing of replacing one identity with another "acculturation."

Powell had a lot of influence since he sat on the House Appropriations Committee and had many contacts at the National Academy of Sciences. His lobbying of Congress to change how the government went about acquiring Indian lands enabled him to snatch the Bureau of American Ethnology away from the Department of the Interior in 1879 and bring it into the Smithsonian Institution with himself as director and also laid the groundwork that eventually formed the U.S. Geological Survey.

Powell set about turning ethnology into a pseudoscientific field called anthropology—the study of primitive peoples—a term first used in 1501 by Magnus Hundt of Germany. Powell did not invent anthropology but he contributed greatly to its reputation and evolution. It started in Europe coming out of natural history when Europeans decided to study the more primitive peoples and, of course, those primitive peoples were those of their own colonies. Were we to expect that such studies would determine that the colonial subjects were no different than their European counterparts (read as "betters") and should be allowed to live freely and without interference?

In America, anthropology was inherently racist and used to justify Andrew Jackson's (president from 1829-1837) Indian Removal Act and Supreme Court Justice Roger B. Taney's 1857 decision in the Dred Scott case that "Negroes" were so far inferior to whites that they had no rights that a white man was bound to respect and therefore could never become citizens. Whether free or slave, servitude was their natural station in life (Taney had also been appointed to the Supreme Court by Andrew Jackson). Anthropology played a significant role in all such events in the 19th century.

By 1854, Josiah Nott and Joseph Gliddon published Types of Mankind, an 800-page book that took racism to new levels. Where Southern slaveowners had previously relied on the Bible to justify the Peculiar Institution, they now had a "scientific" treatise to quote from thanks to Nott and Gliddon. The book was also used to justify the theft of Indian land and the murdering that usually accompanied it.

Powell is more or less the founder of American scientific anthropology and set about to make it as accepted a science as geology using much the same methodology of classifying "primitive" peoples and their various physical traits no differently than if they were rocks. This pseudoscience received grants and other monies that attracted various scientific organizations and universities which then established this racist pseudoscience into a respected true science—just so long as it "scientifically" supported what all who funded it already believed—namely that the white race (or what they called "Aryan") was superior to all others and therefore obliged to "take care" of the others and "guide" them along the path of progress that the Aryan race was so furiously blazing—what Kipling euphemistically referred to as "the white man's burden."

We think today of the Nazis as having founded master race theory but it was more an outgrowth of Jeffersonian ideals that evolved into the doctrine of Progressive Evolutionary Social Theory championed by men as John Wesley Powell. We need look no further than his statement from an 1888 edition of American Anthropologist: "In setting forth the evolution from barbarism to civilization, it becomes necessary to confine the exposition…to one great stock of people—the Aryan race." (From Barbarism to Civilization) Progressive Evolutionary Social Theory was master race theory and the Bureau of American Ethnology was the American Ahnenerbe—having virtually the same purpose.

The goal of anthropology was, and still largely is, to establish that there are, in fact, different races of humans and that some are more advanced (read as "worth more") than others. Indeed with no concept of race, anthropology necessarily ceases to exist. Nothing so perturbed the natives than to be poked, prodded and measured by white men from various universities interested in cataloging every bit of data they could extract from the natives' bodies—everything from finger length to head shape to nose width. Warriors who would bravely stand unflinchingly in the face of the white soldiers' rifle fire and die without a whimper were frequently observed to flee in sheer terror from a team of approaching anthropologists armed with calipers, measuring tapes, scales, clipboards and notebooks. It was a torture worse than death—the torture of sheer boredom.

All these data were used to establish that, yes, American Indians, Africans and all those "Chinamen" slaving away and frequently giving their lives building the nation's railroads (the most salient indication of westward expansion) indeed deserved nothing more. They didn't share "our" outlook, did not have "our" ambitions, knew nothing of civilized life and, as such, had no right to expect any better. Why, without the white man to guide them in these endeavors they would surely perish into extinction. They are a different kind of man. Not like "us." Their value systems are based on savagery and they could never be educated beyond a rudimentary level and would always depend on the white man to supply what they lacked in themselves. Indeed too much education was a Pandora's Box that would bring the devious cunning inherent in their uncivilized natures into play. That's what all these measurements, questionnaires, notes and photographs confirmed—that there are different races and the white race was clearly the fittest of the bunch—the most intelligent, the most clever, the most resourceful, the most honest and forthright and the most adaptable—the cream of the human genetic crop.

The only discernible difference between the Ahnenerbe and the Bureau of Ethnology was that the Ahnenerbe had a genuine scientific conviction in their master race/Aryan origins theory while the Progressive Evolutionary Social Theory was a political tool. The purpose of which was to separate indigenous and other undesirable peoples from their land under any pretense that served that purpose well enough.

So when the white people of Michigan began saying that the plates were proof that an advanced white race lived in Michigan before the Indians why was he so quick to denounce it? On the face of it, he found it ridiculous--which it may be. But his bureau conducted no investigations or research on the Michigan mounds so how could they know what was or was not in them? The real reason is that there was a fear that if the plates were real and the Indians could prove a connection to the people who made them, his scientific anthropology just went down the shitter. The Indians might just turn out to be of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel after all (a prevalent belief in the 19th century) and if they are then there goes the rationale for appropriating their land. Suddenly, they turn into white people ancestors. So the bureau had to kill the story of the finds in Michigan. Whether true or not, they were putting Indian Removal in jeopardy and possibly in the process expose anthropology for the racist frauid that it is and always has been.

And there is your REAL scientific heresy: Anthropology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: GUEST,Josepp
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:48 PM

That was George Gliddon. I don't know why I typed Joseph.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:47 AM

Isn't this just evidence of America inventing its own prehistory to give it some sense of provenance? All very Mormon - it's not there, and what is there doesn't fit (i.e. nasty Native Americans) so let's invent something and plant the evidence to prove it. Those plates are a hoot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 04:04 AM

"Scientific Heresy" is a dumb phrase.
For something to be a heresy, it must oppose an orthodoxy or dogma.
And there is no such thing in science - it is all open to question and provisional.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: GUEST,Josepp
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:03 PM

Wrong. Since anthropology is, in fact, racist dogma and not science at all then it is going against true science and so is, in fact, a heresy.

So, if we conclude the plates are a forgery, it was a clumsy one that threatened the very thing it was hoping to accomplish--the removal of the indigenous peoples from their land. But it was not scientific support that the bureau of ethnology withheld from the forgeries because there was no science to be found in the bureau of ethnology, it was political support that the bureau withheld.

The message was this: "We've already told everyone that the land was occupied by Indians only until 1492 so your findings would then force the conclusion that the Indians are, in fact, our Christian forebears--right in the middle of a program that is enabling us to move them off their land and take it for ourselves because they are a lesser, savage people. What the hell are you trying to do?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:29 PM

The Chinese claim to have explored the planet long before anyone else did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:20 PM

Since anthropology is, in fact, racist dogma and not science at all...

Holy shit, Margaret Meade & Frans Boaz! What planet is this idiot from, anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 03:36 PM

I'm puzzled:


"The problem is this: if the plates are real, it would mean a large, organized community of Christians of some sort lived in Michigan and built the mounds.


Whence cometh the "of Christians" in that claim?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:12 PM

"Whence cometh the "of Christians" in that claim?"



http://www.michigansotherside.com/Pictures/Relics15.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:25 PM

100% Bogus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Scienti(fi)c heresies
From: Musket
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 08:33 AM

When Mudcat has a serious thread going, I get puzzled by some of the arguing the toss on weird side issues. This has no side issue, it is weird to begin with. The fact that some are taking this horseshit seriously answers a few questions and perhaps I should stop trying to reason with some people.

Anthropology is racist?? Science can commit heresy???   Christians before they actually got there???

Keep taking the tablets.


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