mudcat.org: Do purists really exist?
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]


Do purists really exist?

Big Al Whittle 24 Dec 18 - 06:00 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Dec 18 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Dec 18 - 03:19 AM
The Sandman 24 Dec 18 - 01:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Dec 18 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Kenny B(inactive) 22 Dec 18 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM
Vic Smith 22 Dec 18 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Modette 22 Dec 18 - 10:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Dec 18 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 22 Dec 18 - 09:04 AM
Vic Smith 22 Dec 18 - 08:37 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 22 Dec 18 - 07:34 AM
Will Fly 22 Dec 18 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 06:58 AM
Jack Campin 22 Dec 18 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 22 Dec 18 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Observer 22 Dec 18 - 05:24 AM
The Sandman 22 Dec 18 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Dec 18 - 03:56 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 02:52 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 18 - 01:56 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Dec 18 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 12:00 PM
Jack Campin 21 Dec 18 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 11:27 AM
Jack Campin 21 Dec 18 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 10:04 AM
Jack Campin 21 Dec 18 - 09:58 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 21 Dec 18 - 06:22 AM
GUEST 21 Dec 18 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Dec 18 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,Observer 21 Dec 18 - 03:32 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Dec 18 - 03:46 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Dec 18 - 03:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Dec 18 - 03:22 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Dec 18 - 03:08 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Dec 18 - 02:50 PM
Vic Smith 20 Dec 18 - 02:44 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Dec 18 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Dec 18 - 02:30 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 06:00 AM

"Its not Paul or me or even you who decides you're a folksinger."
No it certainly isn't Al - it's whether you sing folk songs, and that depends on knowing what a folk song is

you can't control what people decide you are.

doubtless Hitler would have preferred to be remembered as the great benfactor.

merry christmas , no one in my Dublin family would have known a folksong from a fart. a very unmusical lot!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:24 AM

"-n this case, lack or manipulation of them to suit personal end"
Sorry keyboard playing the maggot
Should read
"in this case - lack of understanding or manipulation of them to suit personal ends"
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 03:19 AM

Definitions are in order to identify what you are talking about, they guide evering in life that we do
Do away with them and you cease communicating with each other -n this case, lack or manipulation of them to suit personal ends stands to lose us our folk songs as it has lost us many of our folk clubs and in some cases cann affect people's lives - I've just had a PM from someone wo relies strongly on getting bookins from folk clubs but can no longer do so because he sings traditional songs

"Its not Paul or me or even you who decides you're a folksinger."
No it certainly isn't Al - it's whether you sing folk songs, and that depends on knowing what a folk song is

Here we have a situation that 'Nellie Dean" (a song written by an American boxing promoter at the beginning of the 20th century) might be an English folk song while at the same time traditional ballads that heve been sung by the folk for centuries and are regarded and described as the "the high watermark of the oral tradition" ot "The Muckle (big) songs" are "inappropriate.
I despair, I really do.

Happy Crimbo all - off to listen to a lorra=lorra traditional music and songs tonight in Dublin, where they have no doubt what their traditional music is and are proud of it
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 01:52 AM

D3efinitions are produced by scholars,it enables categorisation and reminds me of nineteenth century butterfly colectors, music however evolves and changes


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 02:53 PM

Yes , but you don't get it - what Paul's song is saying.

Its not Paul or me or even you who decides you're a folksinger.

If people say you're a folkie - you're bloody stuck with it mate.

Personally I'd rather be regarded as a boulevardier - charismatic, good looking and musically talented.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Kenny B(inactive)
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 11:54 AM

Dear Mr Sandman thank you for reminding me of Don Quixote who has an obvious relevance in this thread regarding purists, his "baldrick" Sancho Panza and his "high horse" Rocinante

A read of the Wiki quotes below may illustrate the subtle and appreciated humour of your posting to other interested parties encore!

The story follows the adventures of a noble (hidalgo) named Alonso Quixano who reads so many chivalric romances that he loses his sanity and decides to become a knight-errant (caballero andante), reviving chivalry and serving his country, under the name Don Quixote de la Mancha. He recruits a simple farmer, Sancho Panza, as his squire, who often employs a unique, earthy wit in dealing with Don Quixote's rhetorical orations on antiquated knighthood. Don Quixote, in the first part of the book, does not see the world for what it is and prefers to imagine that he is living out a knightly story.


Rocinante (Spanish pronunciation: [ro?i'nante]) is Don Quixote's horse in the novel Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes. In many ways, Rocinante is not only Don Quixote's horse, but also his double: like Don Quixote, he is awkward, past his prime, and engaged in a task beyond his capacities.[1][2]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM

"Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. "
A definition is a definition Vic - if this is a folk song the cvlaimants need to say why
It is a early 20th century song of known authorship
It appears nto have not gone through any process to produce variants
It has not become regionalism in any way
It is not narrative as the bulk of our repertoire is
It lacks any form of charactarisasation
There is no evidence that anybody has claimed it as being their own, or Norfolk or Esat Sussex -
It remains as it was first created - "a sentimental ballad in common time by Henry W. Armstrong, published in 1905 by M. Witmark & Sons of New York City.

If all songs sung by traditional singers were 'folk' the term is meaningless and we have been wasting our lives pretending otherwise, which is some of the nonsense been peddled by some which is robbing our tradition of its unique identity
Not something I'm willing to put my name to

Why isn't \The Birdie song a folk song ; or The National Anthem, or Viva Espania

People who think folk songs aren't "brilliant" - they just don't like folk songs#]
Sorry 'bout that Al
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 11:32 AM

"Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. "
A definition is a definition Vic - if this is a folk song the cvlaimants need to say why
It is a early 20th century song of known authorship
It appears nto have not gone through any process to produce variants
It has not become regionalism in any way
It is not narrative as the bulk of our repertoire is
It lacks any form of charactarisasation
There is no evidence that anybody has claimed it as being their own, or Norfolk or Esat Sussex -
It remains as it was first created - "a sentimental ballad in common time by Henry W. Armstrong, published in 1905 by M. Witmark & Sons of New York City.

If all songs sung by traditional singers were 'folk' the term is meaningless and we have been wasting our lives pretending otherwise, which is some of the nonsense been peddled by some which is robbing our tradition of its unique identity
Not something I'm willing to put my name to

Why isn't \The Birdie song a folk song ; or The National Anthem, or Viva Espania

People who think folk songs aren't "brilliant" - they just don't like folk songs#]
Sorry 'bout that Al
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:53 AM

In order to promote clarification, it needs to be pointed out that opinions differ as to whether Nellie Dean is a folk song or not.

* Some would say, as has been stated above, that it is an old pop song and therefore does not qualify.
* Others would say that it does qualify as a folk song because, thinking of the process of songs changing and developing in various ways in the tongues of singers which in now considered the central factor rather than the origin of the song. For this reason it has been treated like other songs that fit with this approach, it has been accorded a number in the Roud Index (30035).

This means that the only fair thing that we can say is that:-
There is a difference of opinion as to whether Nellie Dean is a folk song or not. This opinion will depend on which explanation of what constitutes a folk song is accepted by the person making the statement. We have to listen to who is speaking and why they are saying it.
Certainly Nellie Dean was in the repertoire of many English traditional singers of the 20th century along with other songs that can be traced to author(s).
Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. Everybody has the right to express their opinion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:41 AM

Brilliant, Al! Thanks for that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:30 AM

This is a song written by my friend, neighbour and a lovely guy Paul Openshaw. Probably plays jigs, reels - all that sort of trad stuff I don't really get better than anyone I know - and I know quite a few/ I'm not sure he's met Jim Carroll, but they're both gentlemen. The meeting place is music - even if its no longer the folk club.


Folkie

You think of yourself as a folkie but you do not have the urge
You do not have the urge for a lengthy lament or a dirge
A lengthy lament or a dirge is not the way you fill your spot
But, you think of yourself as a folkie because nobody says that you’re not

You think of yourself as a folkie but you do not have the zest
You do not have the zest because with two left feet you are blessed
With two left feet you are blessed and so you do not have a chance
You do not have a chance when somebody asks you to dance
When somebody asks you to dance, everything goes to pot
But, you think of yourself as a folkie because nobody says that you’re not

You think of yourself as a folkie but you do not have the skill
You do not have the skill to twitter or to trill
To twitter or to trill is not the way you bat
And you don’t stick a finger in your ear, or anywhere else come to that
But if there is nobody else, and you are all they have got
You think of yourself as a folkie because nobody tells you you’re not

Paul J Openshaw (December 2018)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:14 AM

"YOU said Nellie Dean & suchlike are not folksongs. I"
They aren't - unless you can specify why they are -
Repetition has nothing to do with folk or tradition - Nellie Dean is an old pop song - if we didn't already know that we have a recording of Walter Pardon insisting it (and others like it were
Nellie Dean doesn't need an ethnologist to decide what it is - it is what is
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 09:04 AM

No Jim- YOU said Nellie Dean & suchlike are not folksongs. I certainly wouldn't be interested in defining whether it is or not, but this statement implies you know what IS a folk song- YOU brought it up, not me!

And also you have no right to say what will become the folksongs of the future- not your choice, fortunately.

Nellie Dean would be a fascinating study for social ethnomusicologists of the 23nd century- no doubt some singing circle of the future will dig it up & there are worse songs around today.

that's enough from me- have just been passed a pint & a plate of mince pies, so Merry Christmas & Happy new year to all at mudcat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:37 AM

Jack wrote:-
Hunting songs are about as far from the revival as you can get.
Very true and my contacts with the people who uphold this tradition (only through talking to them at traditional music weekends) suggests that as a community they are feeling more isolated. There are few grounds for regarding these songs as anything other than an ongoing tradition and the fact that new songs are entering their repertoire and these are subject to oral change enhances that opinion.
This brings me to another thought. Clearly if the tradition is the voice of the people then it will change to reflect changes the views of the people. Fox hunting songs are not so well received in clubs/singarounds are they were as more and more it comes to be regarded as a cruel and deservedly outlawed activity. I would not like to see them banned, mainly because of their vitality and their historic importance in rural Britain. A lot depends in the context they are sung in and the way they are introduced.
Similarly, blatently misogynist songs are much less heard these days. I have been in audiences where women have audibly groaned as some of the greater excesses of these songs.... and why shouldn't they?
I must have heard the Copper Family singing Oh! Good Ale hundreds of times over the 50-odd years that I have known them. Back in the 1960s they used to sing really lustily....
....And if my wife should me despise
How soon I'd give her two black eyes....

In his last few years Bob Copper had great difficulty with these lines. I can remember him, more than once pausing, looking upwards as if speaking to his dead wife and saying, "You know I wouldn't, love, it's just in the words of the song!"
Similarly there were times when I really cringed when Belle Stewart sung Blue Blazing Blind Drunk and laughing as she sang -
...When Alex gets home I get battered,
He batters we all black and blue...

I can remember thinking, "It isn't funny, Belle. Domestic violence is a curse." but, weakly, I just buttoned my lip rather than speaking out.
A third and last example. A few years ago at our folk club one of our best floor singers sang The Jew's Garden and I was approached at the end of the evening by one of our regulars was clearly incensed and approached me and he told me fimly that I should not have 'allowed' that song to be sung. My reply was that I was the club's organiser and not its censor and that we could not pretend that anti-semitism did not exist then and now in British society. Once again, the context was everything and if there any suggestion that the singer was advocating racism, I would have said so when I was back-announcing him and condemned him for it, but it is a difficult issue for all that. Some singers make subtle changes to the words to deal with this. My wife, Tina, makes a great job of singing Gathering Rushes. One time I noticed that a new word (the underlined one) had been inserted -
Was it by a black haired man
Or was it by a brown?

... and I feel that by doing so, I am sure that she is emphasising the original meaning. When the adults in my extended family were talking during my boyhood in Edinburgh about 'a grey wuman' or 'a ginger laddie' it was the hair that was being referred to. In modern multi-cultural Britain, 'a black man' means something different.

It was reading - and agreeing with - Jack's thoughts on hunting songs and Jim Bainbridge's thoughts of the appropriate mixture of song and venue that have led to my sharing these thoughts, After all, if a song loses its function it is unlikely to continue to be sung.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:02 AM

"Who said they were folk songs? Not me-"
Why bring them up
Whethet you said it is immaterial - enough peopl have claimd some of them to be folk songs in order to sing them at folk clubs

"and probably already far more practised than Morris."
I have no doubt of that Will, jus as I have no doubt pop songs are more widely listened to and sung than folk songs
"'Nellie Dean' may be regarded as a traditional gem one day-"
Very doubtful - it is sentimentalised imagery based on an idyllic picture of country life
I'm not calling you or anybody names - people who use the term "purist" do that
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:02 AM

"Who said they were folk songs? Not me-"
Why bring them up
Whethet you said it is immaterial - enough peopl have claimd some of them to be folk songs in order to sing them at folk clubs

"and probably already far more practised than Morris."
I have no doubt of that Will, jus as I have no doubt pop songs are more widely listened to and sung than folk songs
"'Nellie Dean' may be regarded as a traditional gem one day-"
Very doubtful - it is sentimentalised imagery based on an idyllic picture of country life
I'm not calling you or anybody names - people who use the term "purist" do that
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:34 AM

Who said they were folk songs? Not me- I'm not getting into that, been there before & it just ends in tears.
'Nellie Dean' may be regarded as a traditional gem one day- not up to our generation to make a judgment on that.
I don't want to be called names, so will just carry on doing what I do, 'folk' or not & not worrying about it- the purists can do that


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:27 AM

Be careful what you prophesy, Jim... line dancing is amazingly popular, very socially inclusive - and probably already far more practised than Morris.

Dance Near You: Line Dancing Classes

From the website:
Whatever you have heard previously about line dancing... put those thoughts aside and embrace the new culture of line dancing in the modern 20th century.

Contrary to popular opinion Line dancing was not invented by cowboys. Line dancing has its origins initially in the 1960's soul music scene in America, Followed in the 70's by the trend of dancing in lines in the discos,.in the 80's along came Billy Ray Cyrus and his video to Achy Breaky Heart and it was only really then that line dancing took off in the UK.

Modern line dance clubs teach to music from all genres to all styles of music, including soul, rock or pop, latin music, Irish, salsa, and big band music as well as country and western.

It's easy for beginners to learn and offers more energetic and complex routines for the more experienced. From the first lesson beginners will be able to enjoy dancing to a whole range of line dance routines.


Don't care for it myself, but it's very popular and - I'm told - great fun to do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:01 AM

Didn't quite finish
What Steve is describing isn't progression or development - it's acculturation - one culture taking over and replacing another
It's certainly not progress - it's a return to the times when everybody was trying to sound like Guthrie or Leadbelly
Wonder if people would be happy to see Morris replaced by Line-dancing
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 06:58 AM

"Hunting songs are about as far from the revival as you can get"
True to a point Jack, though I do know some Northern Clubs specialised in them
Personally, I despise them almost as much as I do the bernaric practice the sclebrate

" music hall songs, rock music etc can do the same to us and future "
They may well - not sure what the youth of the future will make of 'Nellie Dean'
Beside the point - they ain't folk songs
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 05:56 AM

Hunting songs are about as far from the revival as you can get. For an ethnomusicologist, the continuity of the practice is what makes it distinctive.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 05:54 AM

Jim, if you accept that the songs & culture of previous centuries still gives pleasure today, then surely more recent culture, including music hall songs, rock music etc can do the same to us and future generations? Again, it's down to taste & sensitivity to context!
Re the 14 verse ballad I mentioned. Picture a hall full of rural folk out for a good night's entertainment on an annual village concert, with accordion, flute players & a ghastly electronic organ playing country & irish & people walking in & out, drinking tea & chatting to friends. An ancient ballad in a dialect far outside their experience is a LOT less relevant than almost anything I can think of!
Re the 'Wild Rover', you're being perverse there- you know quite well what version I meant! You just TRY to sing a lovely but different old version to a crowd such as I mentioned & you would not be able to complete the song, and would be deservedly perceived as some kind of an eejit!
I'm well aware of Brian Peters' excellent article about the song- Johnny Handle sent me a copy some time back. Louis Killen has also explained his role in its popularisation but wouldn't accept the blame- his version was good enough in its day, it's what has happened since which makes it the joke it is today!
Sad maybe but the real world.
It's folk, Jim, but not as we know it.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 05:24 AM

Jim Carroll Date: 22 Dec 18 - 03:56 AM

Well said, put perfectly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 04:23 AM

Jim could you explain why you think it has nothing to do with the traditi0n


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 03:56 AM

Evolution of the revival, but it has nothing whatever to do with the tradition
We have a massive repertoire of songs and ballads which, in my opinion, need to be brought to the attention of as many people possible before they end up as museum pieces
They are not only extremely pleasurable to sing and listen to, but they are important carriers of our social history
If people had been happy to stand aside to make room for the latest fad we would have no Shakespeare or Chaucer or Beethoven...
Creative culture is a continuum, not a leap from fashion to fashion - it's part of our long-term human identity
If songs from the 17th - 18th 19th century could give mid 20th century young people so much pleasure, why can't they continue to do so in the 21st century?
I have to say I find complacent such as this from a researcher somewhat surprising and disappointing
I really think we have totally different objectives here
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM

Here's an interesting irony: I have a friend who has spent some time with current hunting clubs recording their songs which are still being written in the age-old way regarding local events, and by far the most influential genre for tune source is no longer folksong, but Irish Country music. Personally I don't see that as a problem, or even unusual, it's simply evolution.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 02:52 PM

"Oh, well, we offered.."
So did I
All the best to you too
There aren't too many Music Hall songs on the site, I can't recall many parlour songs either
As with the Traveller's Country and Western, they decided they weren't the really old songs and refused to sing them
They had less problems distinguishing fish from fown that the revival do apparently
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 01:56 PM

Jim, as you can appreciate there is already an enormous wealth of all sorts of material online, and for one reason or another yesterday was the first time I had a look at your Clare Co. Library material. Many thanks for this resource which is very helpful and some great material, even the parlour songs and Music hall songs amongst the ballads.

If you ever want a heads up on who wrote some of them and when, to complete the info, just let me know.

Have a good Christmas
All the best
Steve


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 01:51 PM

Oh, well, we offered.....Have a good Christmas, all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 12:53 PM

Sorry Jack - didn't fully reply fully
Only our Clare recordings are on line - Google Carroll Mackenzie collection at Clare County Library
Most of the rest is listed and anybody interested will be sent an index on request
If there is enough interest, I may ask Joe offer to keep a copper (if he's willing and able) for full time use
Anybody wishing to get recordings will be put on my PCloud list
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 12:00 PM

Yes - our archive
I sent Brian the above mentioned version of Wild Rover for his article - he included it - anybody is welcome to it should they want it
Other than that, we only have the standard versions recorded by the BEEB
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 11:50 AM

You meant your stuff, not the EFDSS?

Is it actually usable? e.g. if Brian Peters had asked for all versions you had of The Wild Rover in any format, could you have provided them?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 11:27 AM

Sorry Jack, if you can't work out that people involved in traditional music and song declare they haven't and don't intend to make the use of an archive of Traditional songs and music doesn't add up to dogmatism, I really can't help you
I was going to leave it there so please don't labour it
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 10:26 AM

So, who are the dogmatists you're referring to and what have they done?

Names and specific actions, please.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 10:04 AM

"you're kicking at an open door."
Not with some people it appears
I only mentioned Brian's article as a recommendation - my reference to dogmatism referred to the attitude of using archives
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 09:58 AM

I don't think anybody's been dogmatic about research like Brian's. If you have something to say and take the trouble to back it up, you're kicking at an open door.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 09:21 AM

Incidentally Jim
"I don't like the 'Wild Rover'"
I wonder if you've heard Pat Usher's (Mary Anne Carolan's Brother) version ?
Breathtakingly beautiful and far superior to the hackneyed 'sung to death' one that's bean beaten into the ground by the folkies
Amazing what you find if you turn over a few stones (which you won't do if you insist on refusing to avail yourself of collections you haven't heard)
Our own Brian Peters wrote an excellent article on this much maligned and abused song
The dogmatism that has bedeviled such research has done much to reduce the importance of our clubs as the carriers of The People's culture they could be - if only... !
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 07:01 AM

I do take in what's said Jim and I try to respond thoughtfully
Cant' think for the life of me why a Scottish ballad should be any mor irrelevant than a long rejected Victorian tear-jerker, or a 1920s sentmental song, or a faded 50s number... or many of the songs I'v heard sung at folk clubs
But there again, I've know Shakespeare plays to be described as "irrelevant" as well
What happened to 'every one to their own taste' I wonder ?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:22 AM

sorry that was me


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 06:21 AM

Don't see why you need to be your self-confessed 'pain in the arse' Jim. You have strong views about the music, and although I have never drawn on your archive & nor do I intend to, but I'm sure that all contributors here are grateful for its existence. I'm sure they'd also be grateful if you could try absorb what is said before replying?

Other archives are available, and I feature myself on some of them- why do I think of the Marx brothers here? I've had great times in folk clubs, festivals over the past 50 years, although the enjoyment is now wearing thin, it's been a valuable movement, but the wealth of recorded stuff is now huge, it's still down to personal taste.

I've run singarounds which have been cursed with 'dreich' traditional songs which please no one and a surfeit of these led on one occasion to its demise- a decision of a pub landlord. The value of traditional material is not in question here, but it's a matter of taste and sensitivity to context!


I remember the phrase 'pandering to your audience' being used by folkies but what does it mean? I arranged a nationally known UK singer of much experience to do a spot on a vilaage GAA concert in Ireland last year- she sang a 14 verse Scottish ballad which was totally irrelevant & almost killed the whole night.

It would be ridiculous to produce such stuff to a group of non-folkies anywhere, context is everything- you have to trust peoples' judgment in the 'folk' club context- they'll get it wrong sometimes (I certainly have) but this is not a crusade!

I don't like the 'Wild Rover' much but if asked, I would sing it, because after that, the 'folk' (and that's what they are !!!!) will be much more willing to accept what you give them. I have NO hesitation about singing 50s pop songs in the right context- it's often the right thing to do (yes that's occasionally a folk club,) but then I'm not a purist, am sure you'll agree about that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 04:31 AM

Steve
Having more or less despaired of finding a home in the UK for our considerable library of books, recordings, albums, magazines, et al, we have bequeathed it to Limerick University World Music Centre where it has been greeted with warmth and gratitude and will remain as a separate library (the suggestion was under our name - hopefully not)
Our recordings are all digitised and listed - some are transcribed and others need annotation
I am in the process of sorting the large and somewhat ungainly Singers Workshop section into usable groups (I'm working on the BBC collection now)
There are around 200 radio programmes and as many lectures we and others have recorded down the years
Most of the MacColl/Critics Group meetings, seminars, interviews and documentation are gathered together to be sorted and properly indexed
This is for Limerick but I have arranged to pass on a large amout to Joe Offor, to be used as he sees fit
I was hoping this would be taken up by a responsible traditionally based club, but, following arguments like these, I'm not so sure now
Most of our commercial albums are digitised with notes for our own personal use

Some of this is already distributed here - , The Irish Traditional Music Archive has a copy of most, as has The Irish Folklore Department and Na Píobrí Uilleann and, whenever somebody has asked for material, they have been given whatever they can use.... hardly anything in the U.K., despite efforts
Some of what we have we have to think about as, though we have been given it freely we're not sure we should have it - we discuss this with everyone who wants it.

Thirty odd years ago we gave what we had then of our own recordings to the then British Institute of Recorded Sound, which later became The National Sound Archive and is now housed in The British Library
The deposit of the collection helped shift BIRS's attention from international musicology to expanding it to taking in British material
Ironically, the drive to expand their interests has meant that our and I think, other early collections have lain in a cupboard somewhere in The British Library and have never seen the light of day (I can't imagine that Walter, Mikeen, Mary Delaney, Tom Lenihan, et al are afraid of the dark, but it seems an awful shame !!)   

The collection we have helped put together represents not only a large slice of the recorded British Tradition but also The Rise and near Fall of the Folk Revival in Britain
Our efforts to find it a home have made me somewhat dubious of the future of folk song (in England at least - Scotland seems to have a far greater pride in its oral traditions)
As things stand with the EFDSS at present, I wouldn't dream of offering it to them, even if they wanted it
Good luck with your Broadsides - they have been turning down offers of such collections at least since Leslie Shepherd's collection was refused - they apparently haven't enough cupboards to lock them away in !

Personally, I believe the future of folk song in Britain to lie in the possibility of devotees of traditional music, song and arts getting together and forming some sort of Federation to draw back the many no longer involved because of the way things have gone, and to draw in desperately needed young people
Ireland has had tremendous succes in this and it has turned the fortunes of a once-declining music completely around
The internet makes that a possibility, but the will needs to be there - on of the reasons I involve myself in these often extremely depressing arguments

You say our collection has a couple of rare songs - actually it contains quite a few, including totally unique ones.
Ireland has proved itself a strong song-making country which made songs whenever the inspiration arose - most were never published but some survived in either the local oral traditions, in the memories of old singers or in family notebooks - may hundreds of them - we got several, others got more throughout the country
I'm working on the Child Ballads turned up in Ireland now and am constantly staggered at what made it here

As for ending these arguments - forget it
I believe that something is radically wrong with the traditional music scene in Britain and brushing it under the carpet isn't going to help
You know my feelings on the Revisionism that is taking place in folk song research which, I believe, is ripping the heart out of our understanding of our traditional Heritage
Instead of flying off in new tangents, we need to take stock of what we think we know and what those who were in a far better situation to judge, thought they knew, and not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I have fond memories of great educational and inspiring gatherings conferences in Sheffield, Leeds, Salford, Aberdeen, Leominster..... perhaps it's time for another
I doubt if EFDSS has either the interest or the reputation to take some sort of lead and I now have strong doubts about The Traditional Song Forum -
It's a bit unfair to land the responsibility on groups like The Glasgow Ballad people who, I believe are doing an excellent job already, but I certainly think their work need to be more widely appreciated.
I just don't know if there is the interest anymore, which is why I'm more than prepared to continue making myself a pain in the arse
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 03:32 AM

Wonderful what sometimes comes up in threads, my unexpected Christmas bonus this year has got to be my introduction to the group "Yorkshire Garland" - thank you Steve Gardham, and compliments of the season to all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:46 PM

Regarding other collections and placing them somewhere like Cecil Sharp House: Space is at a premium and taking on a collection involves all sorts of issues that need money and manpower to restore, catalogue, place online, then there are ownership/copyright issues. I know they have recently taken in at least 4 major collections which need processing and all of this takes a long time. Much of Mike's material is commercially available as is that of others like yourselves.

Here is an example of what happens when a major collector dies. During their lifetimes they make offers to various institutions, local universities etc. which for various reasons turn them down. Eventually one of these universities takes the recordings, but doesn't have the wherewithal to place them online. However, there are all sorts of other folklore artefacts, photos, diaries, book collection, and even where the heir has the generosity to invite other collectors to come in and take material some of the books at least end up being auctioned and dispersed. That's not the end of the world as only a few are rare books. Someone with very limited space and resources comes along (me) and says I'll take this and I'll take that, but what happens to it when I pop my clogs. I'm just grateful that my own recordings were taken on by the BL and my local archives have gone into the local history centre. My broadside copies are probably second to none in the country and I'm hoping EFDSS will take these when I'm ready to hang up my pen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:24 PM

But you have gathered it, Jim, and some of us at least are extremely grateful. I have just been looking at the Roud Index on the VWML website looking for versions of a rare song and 2 of the 5 known versions come from your recordings which I will be referencing clearly and thankfully in our next book of songs.

Okay, let's make a start here and now. Here's my invitation as you won't take up Dave's. As a start, a brief itemisation/list of what you have that is not already available online, that is in any way related to folk music, MacColl, Palmer, Thompson, Shields, Munnely, your own, perhaps including a list of names who you have recorded and any material that is not commercially available or online. (Posted here if you like)

As an interested individual I can't promise anything but to make noises in the right places. In return can I please ask that you stop slagging off current research and the British folk scene. It serves no purpose at all. I'm not suggesting here we should stop debating issues, but to do it without flinging insults, and here I acknowledge I've flung as much mud as you have, which I regret.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:22 PM

I don't feel I've have been combative. Maybe I have, but not intentionally so.

I think things change. The big change for me has been the availability of cheap instrumens. When I was a kid, a months wages wouldn't have paid for a decent playable guitar. Now you can get a decent playable guitar for twenty quid on gumtree.

Plus there are cheaper banjos, penny whistles, mouth organs, bodhrans and fiddles.

Also there is more tuition around. The Seegers, Josh White looked like magicians. Their techniques and abilities seemed other worldly.

And I suppose that accounts for some of the differences. We are not perhaps in as much reverence as we should be for the visionary pioneers of the folk music revival. Their beautiful instruments and abikities are more familiar to us.

I wouldn't like anyone to think I was not respectful of another person's efforts to pass on something good to the world.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 03:08 PM

THen why didn't you participate Vic and why didn't others ?
He also serves who only stands and waits, eh ?
I find the accusation of hi-jacking highly insulting and a bit rich from someone who spends a deal of time complaining about insulting
I have neither insulted people here, nor have I or anybody "hijacked " this thread though I doubt if you will retract that accusation

"You need to be more explicit, Jim. "
I'm referring to Mike Yates
Other friends of EFDSS have equally important collections - Roy Palmer and Bob Thomson spring to mind

When we ran Singers Workshop and realised the need for an archive, I wrote a dozen appeals for material - in next to no time parcels ro tapes arrived from these people and others, Bob and Jacqueline Patten gave us almost their entire collection
From Ireland we got lumps of Hugh Shields' and Tom Munnely's collection and one old musician gave us around 60 tapes of songs and music he had made around the time the tape recorder first came available
Macoll and Seeger let me loose i their home for weeks and set up two tape recorders so we could cope what he had
I stayed with Charlie Parker a couple of times and he gave us loads of his work, including the actuality for the radio Ballads

All this stuff has always been available for the asking - if only there had been the will and initiative to gather it
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:50 PM

OP
'OK, there's the odd Luddite (they exist in all walks of life, not just music), but isn't "purist" the wrong term?'

Neanderthal? (I was once a Neanderthal myself in the 60s before I evolved.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:44 PM

"Do purists really exist?" Potentially, this could have been useful and interesting topic but once again a promising thread has been hi-jacked and repetitive combativeness has prevailed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:37 PM

>>>>former editor<<<<
You need to be more explicit, Jim. There are many fine collectors with connections to EFDSS. Editor of what, the Journal, the magazine, the website, books of songs?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Dec 18 - 02:30 PM

"Are you talking about performers or those preserving recordings and manuscripts?"
EFDSS of course - Performers do what they do and that's the way is should be
Iv'e already said how I heel about giving teh manuscripts priority

"Gezz Lowe's, Brian Peters', Graham Miles, Vin Garbutt et al, songs any different in form or quality from Ewan's?"
Quality is a matter of opinion; the form is so different
I've also given my view on the necessity of making songs - but those you mentioned are nt those chosen to put on their site
I wouldn't give any of them - Ewan's included, priority if it was a case of space
A very fine former editor is also one of Britain;s leading collectors - how about putting some of his stuff up to show people what folk song is
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 17 August 8:00 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.