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Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings

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Richard from Liverpool 18 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM
GUEST 18 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM
Joe Offer 18 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM
Fred McCormick 18 Jun 11 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 18 Jun 11 - 04:28 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Jun 11 - 04:35 PM
The Sandman 18 Jun 11 - 04:43 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM
Matthew Edwards 18 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 19 Jun 11 - 03:40 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 11 - 04:41 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 11 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 19 Jun 11 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM
Reinhard 19 Jun 11 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jun 11 - 02:56 PM
meself 19 Jun 11 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 19 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 11 - 02:04 AM
Martin Graebe 20 Jun 11 - 08:03 AM
The Sandman 20 Jun 11 - 02:10 PM
GUEST 20 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM
dick greenhaus 20 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 20 Jun 11 - 05:57 PM
Martin Graebe 20 Jun 11 - 06:32 PM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 05:57 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 21 Jun 11 - 06:11 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 06:23 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 21 Jun 11 - 07:39 AM
Martin Graebe 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 21 Jun 11 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 21 Jun 11 - 08:41 AM
Tradsinger 21 Jun 11 - 08:42 AM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM
Spleen Cringe 21 Jun 11 - 12:02 PM
Spleen Cringe 21 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 01:36 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Jun 11 - 01:44 PM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM
greg stephens 21 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM
Vic Smith 21 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM
Vic Smith 21 Jun 11 - 04:26 PM
The Sandman 21 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 11 - 02:12 AM
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Subject: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Richard from Liverpool
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

Hello

I'm very keen to listen to some of the late Peter Kennedy's "folktrax" recordings as catalogued at the now historic website http://www.folktrax-archive.org/. There have been discussions here on mudcat in the past about getting hold of these recordings, but these are all (as far as I can see) a few years old, so I'm interested to know what the current state of play is.

1) Is there any way of purchasing the recordings now? (I'm guessing that the answer is 'no', but I guess it's worth asking anyway)

2) Where can one find copies of the recordings to listen to? e.g. is there a set at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library? Are they at the British Library?

Thanks to anyone who can help!


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM

Topic records have all the Peter Kennedy recordings and are tidying them up and will re-issue them as a second "Voice of the People" set sooner rather than later.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:31 PM

Now, that's wonderful news!

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 03:42 PM

Richard. We should have a word about this at the next Lion session. In the meantime, I have a large number of the Folktrax cassettes. They were given to me, I should point out, I didn't buy them. The sound quality varies from fairly tolerable to absolutely atrocious, and the programming and selection can make listening feel at times a bit like being tortured by the CIA.

On top of that, as previous threads discuss, a large cloud of doubt hangs over the question of the legality of these publications in terms of copyright and royalty payments. In many cases, Kennedy appears not to have told many of the performers or their descendants, and in at least one case, used the recordings of another collector without asking permission.

Having said that, Reg Hall has been working on a large CD publication of material from the Kennedy collection for Topic records. From what I can gather, it is due for publication this autumn and will be in name and fact a second Voice of the People.

I also know that Reg has delved into the legal aspects of this collection and he would be the last person to publish anything that wasn't legit. Plus, the series will be professionally remastered and will doubtless feature some fabulous performances.

In the meantime, if you want to listen to recordings of field singers, and thank God somebody does, both the libraries you mention have extensive holdings and both have on-line catalogues.

The British Library holdings actually come under the World and traditional music
section of the National Sound Archive.

And of course don't forget the wonderful Tobar an Dualchais - kist of riches - archive at the School of Scottish Studies website.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:28 PM

Dick from Camsco will probably pop here soon to say that he has some of the recordings available for sale.
You can hear at least some (perhaps all) of the recordings at the VWML.
Reg is not the only person involved in the second VotP series. Shirley Collins, Rod Stradling and Steve Roud are also involved. They won't be coming out as a set of 20 CDs like VotP1. They will be split into themes, sometimes double, sometimes triples, sometimes solos. I think the Shirley selection will be coming out first - southern English singers including Gypsy singers.
Derek Schofield


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:35 PM

CAMSCO has re-released (under license) : As I Roved Out
Songs of Lovers--False and True
The Bald Headed End of the Broom
Songs of the Trades
Songs of Country Life
Songs of Good Company
Songs of Diversion
Shanties of the Seven Seas
Suffolk & Essex Singers
Bob Roberts
Harps & Hornpipes
The Bramble Briar
Isabel Sutherland
What a Voice : Jeannie Robertson
Jug of Punch
Charlie Wills
Songs From the Midlands
Instrumental Dance Music
Crawling Into Work
Unto Briggs Fair
Shanties and Sea Songs V.1
Shanties and Sea Songs v2. Carpenter Coll.
Songs of Comment--Robert Cinnamond
Fly Up, My Cock -Robert Cinnamond
The Rambling Youth -- Robert Cinnamond
The May Morning Dew
Brigid Tunney
Paddy Tunney
The Rosin Box
The Muckle Ballads
Tales From a Traveller
Ballads & Songs From Orkney
Maggie Maggie May
English Folksongs Miss Pringle Never Taught Us
Diddle Daddle
Lucy Stewart
Lower The Funnel
Wild Rover No More
Slieve Gallon Brae
A-Mining We Will Go
Ballads of Storm and Shipwreck
The Fighting Sailor
The Broken Token
The Boatie Rows
The Deadly Wars
Napoleonic Songs
The White Cockade
Frank Warner & Family
Black is the Colour : Karpeles Coll. V.1
Cumberland Gap: Karpeles v.2
Mountain Ballads
Yankee John Galusha
Lena Bourne Fish
The Hicks Family & Friends
Tink "Tillet
Rebecca King Jones/ Lee Monroe Presnell
Bolankin
John Hardy
I'm Going Back to North Carolina
I've been told byTopic that when they get around to issuing their "best of"set, I'll be able to release the "rest of" the collection.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:43 PM

I hope that is not the Bald Headed end of the Broom, that Kennedy illegally recorded from a Folk on 2 broadcast, of The Dunmow Flitch by Dick and Sue Miles. he was selling this bootleg as a cassette, without the permission of the recording artist concerned or recording company


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 04:50 PM

I bet you really hope it is, Dick. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM

For what its worth the record The Bald-Headed End of the Broom comes from a recording of Martha Gillen, County Antrim in 1954 by Seamus Ennis.

Thanks to Derek for the information about the format of the forthcoming Topic VOTP2; I also heard that Musical Traditions will issue some of the recordings not chosen by Topic, but I gather other recordings from the Kennedy archives may be issued by other labels under licence from Topic. For example I've just been listening to a wonderful 3CD issue of the great Donegal fiddler Neillidh Boyle from Cairdeas na bhFidiléirí which includes some tracks recorded by Peter Kennedy. So we are in for some real treats when all these recordings become available with high quality sound engineering, and proper notes.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 03:40 AM

high quality sound engineering, and proper notes.

I've still got four or five Seamus Ennis FolkTrax tapes featuring all manner of pipe tunes, songs, stories (Sean Aerach - the ultimate odd-couple road-trip involving a hilarious dispute with St Peter over the heart of a lamb...), with some fiddle / whistle as well. As far as Folk Product goes they were something else - duplicated on low-grade unbranded cassette tapes with near-illegible photocopied covers with minimal info (at best) all served up in pastel pinks and blues. I just wish I'd bought more of them when I had the chance really - I've had them since around 1984 and one of these days might even get round to doing a digital transfer. Hoary artefacts of genuine Folkloric significance which are worth cherishing I would have thought, along with all the contentions and controversies that went with them...

I must admit (as I often do) I'm not a huge fan of VOTP (even though I own most of it), feeling that such material deserves open access on-line with the emphasis being on the singers themselves (as in the old Topic collections), rather than further merry mix-ups of song taxonomy.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:41 AM

I got my version of BALD HEADED END OF THE BROOM, from Peter Kennedys book which i bought.
I along with Sue Miles and Jez Lowe was legally and morally entitled to make our own arrangement, Kennedy was not legally or morally entitled to sell our arrangement, from an illegal bootleg he made of a bbc 2 radio broadcast on folk on two.
according to Kennedys book HE QUOTES TWO RECORDED VERSIONS, the one mentioned which was in fact by seamus ennis AND s o boyle,AND A VERSION FROM NORTH CAROLINA recorded from lee monroe presnell, folk legacy fsa 23
here is our recorded version,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:43 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4 that was it.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM

"and will re-issue them as a second....."
Only some of the recordings I understand, leaving a large number still unheard.
The first major release of these recordings was via the Caedmon 'Folk Songs of Britain' series, later re-issued by Topic. As valuable as these were, most of the songs were edited, some of them drastically with verses being removed all over the place.   
I understand the 'Voice of the People' series was orginally planned as a re-issuing of FSoB unedited, which eventually became something else. Perhaps it is time to re-issue the original set in all its magnificence.
I wonder also what happened to that dreadful series issued by Kennedy where he added amaturish accompaniments, echo, choruses,speeding up and slowing down..... to the original field recording (imagine fiddle virtuoso John Doherty singing to a dubbed-on bad fiddle accompaniment) sort of like painting beard and moustache on the Mona Lisa!!
Considering the highly-questionable (to say the least) legality of how this treasure trove was collected and what has happened to it over the last half century +, and the fact that they were originally paid for with BBC licence-payers money, wouldn't the moral thing be to make them freely available on the web - just a thought!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 08:31 AM

Three of the Caedmon albums were re-released by Rounder in the Alan Lomax series - Songs of Seduction and the 2 Child Ballad volumes. With extra tracks, but still with the annoying missing verses feature. Those CDs are probably not even available now, but perhaps can be downloaded. It's a pity the other 7 volumes were not reissued, but I understand that Peter Kennedy was the problem! He was editing them.
Derek


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 12:36 PM

Thanks Derek,
Had no idea even those three had been re-issued - do you know if they were full versions?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Reinhard
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 01:21 PM

Mustrad has a tracklist and review of Rounder's Child ballad reissues


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 02:56 PM

Thanks Reinhard - still no full versions - pity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: meself
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 04:22 PM

(Fine job, Dick!)


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 05:48 PM

Jim
This page of the Rounder website gives the listings for Child 2 and Seduction, but no Child 1, and .. they are only for downloads. So no detailed booklet that was in the CD versions.
http://www.rounder.com/artists/alan-lomax-collection/page/6
Derek


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:04 AM

Thanks Derek,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 08:03 AM

Dick

Could we knock on the head the idea that PK sold your version of 'Bald headed end of the broom commercially'? What was listed on his website (as can be seen from the archived version at folktrax-archive.org)is one of his personal recordings off air, which was available to visitors to his library for private study. This tape will, I assume, be among those which went to the Kennedy-Grant Library at Halsway Manor and will, likewise, be available for study purposes there - but it will not be possible to copy it. If you are unhappy with this you should contact them. But you may feel flattered that your work is available for future students in this way.

Martin


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 02:10 PM

Martin, that is not good enough,Peter illegally and without my permission did a bootleg recording of a Folk on TWO Broadcast, he could have contacted either Joe Stead or I and asked for a complimentary record, as far as I am concerned I would have sent him one., or he could have even bought a copy.
but, no, he chose to without permission bootleg his own version, it may now be available for private study, big deal, it is available now courtesy of myself for everyone to study on you tube.
however my memory which is still pretty good, but not infallible tells me that particular folk cassette, was not always just for private study,if it was why did he not contact me at the time and ask me.
Martin there exists in this world such a thing as good manners and courtesy, so no, we cannot knock the fact that he attempted to sell a track commercially,if he had contacted me and said could I have or even buy a copy for private study,I would have given him one for free.
and here for the rest of the world it is for free, so f### People that underhandedly bootlegs other peoples recordings and dont have a modicum of decency and good manners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

The legalities or not of Kennedy's collection is water under the bridge. He made money out of it. Bear in mind this is "Voice of the people".
Now others are making money out of it by re-issuing parts of the collections. The very concept that parts should be retained and issued for private study is elitist in the extreme. It has nothing to do with folk music. It is one of the reasons why our popular music of today owes more to US folk culture than it does to English or British.
I agree with Jim Carroll. Put them all up on the web - warts and all.
Many years ago a group was set up in Gloucester to provide an archive where Peter Kennedy could leave all his collection. This never happened of course and some people who were involved were worried that the archive might have been sold to an American University.
What a shame they were not! By most US university's record we would now be looking at and downloading them - for FREE.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 04:03 PM

Folks here seem to have a vastly inflated vision of the amount of money that's involved with the sale of traditional folk music. Kennedy's collection is not widely available because there's virtually no market for it. People like CAMSCO are trying to keep it available simply because they think it should be available, NOT because there's any signiicant money to be made.And while it's nice to have free downloads, it takes money(taxes or grants) to set up and maintain these archives.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:57 PM

Martin and Dick (GSS) disagree on the cassette business.
Looking at the Folktrax archive, this is the entry:

BALD HEADED END OF THE BROOM, THE - "O love it is a funny thing - it affects both young and old" - ROUD#2129 - MERCHANT: Gargling Songster, Chicago, c1885 titled "Lines of Love" - RANDOLPH 1946 - KENNEDY FSBI 1975 p449 Martha Gillen 1954 -- Martha GILLEN, rec by Seamus Ennis, Co Antrim, 1954: RPL 21839/ FTX-019 & FTX-434 - Dick & Sue Miles Radio Folk on Two 1984 CASS 0453 --- Beach Mt NC: FOLK LEGACY FSA-23

If you look at this on the website, FTX19 and FTX434 are hyperlinked to Folktrax cassettes that Kennedy sold. Neither of them contains Dick's recording - they contain the Martha Gillen recording. CASS 0453 is not hyper-linked, suggesting to me that it was - as Martin states - a private recording that he made from the radio and kept as such in his archive. We've all done it. This all suggests that it was not sold. Now, of course, the recording might have been put on a Folktrax commercial cassette at some stage between 1984 and a while prior to Kennedy's death. I don't know. But that's not what the website suggests.

I'm no apologist for Kennedy. I knew him, we fell out, talked to each other again and fell out again. He did some dubious things with recordings, but perhaps not on this occasion.

Derek


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 06:32 PM

Your analysis is correct, Jim. PK was doing nothing (in this instance) that any of us would not have done.

m


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 05:57 AM

sorry, That wont do, Kennedy should have asked first, so Martin you would go around bootlegging other peoples work, without asking them, Martin how would you like it if I bootlegged a copy of your recording, from a folk on two broadcast, or any other broadcast and put it out on a different label, if Kennedys motives were purely altruistic, why not contact me or the recording company, what you are saying does not ring true.
This is the correct way to do it, MORALLY AND LEGALLY, C


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:10 AM

sorry, That wont do,
Kennedy should have asked first, so Martin you would go around bootlegging other peoples work, without asking them, Martin how would you like it if I bootlegged a copy of your recording, from a folk on two broadcast, or any other broadcast and put it out on a different label,FOR WHATEVER PURPOSES.
if Kennedys motives were purely altruistic, why not contact me or the recording company, what you are saying does not ring true, IN FACT it is codswallop.
This is the correct way to do it,http://www.wtv-zone.com/phyrst/audio/nfld/08/cabinboy.htm
MORALLY AND LEGALLY, Contact the person first and ask, it is unethical to bootleg other peoples recordings from RADIO 2 or any other broadcast,and use them for private study or commercial purposes without asking first.
KENNETH PEACOCK asked me and explained what it was for and I agreed, that is what Peter Kennedy should have done, but no, he behaved in an underhand and devious manner, which confirms my opinion that his motives were not purely altruistic.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:11 AM

Jim? who's Jim?
Dick - there is no evidence that Kennedy SOLD your recording on a "commercial" cassette. Have you never recorded something from the radio or videoed a TV programme? It appears that that is what Kennedy did here.
Derek aka Jim?


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:23 AM

NO,
TO Paraphrase Mandy Rice Davies, Kennedys Present website would say that.
it is illegal and immoral to bootleg anybodys recordings without asking their permission, I have put that track up on youtube, that was my decision, that gives me the right to remove it at any time.
if Kennedy wanted to let people hear it for private study, why bootleg it why not contact me,he could have bought the lp, after all i bought his book, but if he had offered to buy one,I would have sent him one for free, I have always dealt honestly with people I expect to be treated that way in return.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM

Can I point out what is happening in Ireland at the present time.
I regularly receive notification from the Irish Traditional Music Archive telling me that yet another large chunk of their holdings is freely available to me via their web-sit.
Hopefully, by the end of the year, the same will happen here in County Clare with our local archive Oidreach an Chláir (OAC).
I was delighted to learn that the School of Scottish Studies was making their wonderful collection available to all.
The age of technology is here - there is no excuse for hanging on to the music and songs that we only have due to the unstinting generosity of people like Sam Larner, Harry Cox and Walter Pardon - if it belongs to anybody, it belongs to them - or as Walter once said "They're not my songs, they're everybody's".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:36 AM

Exactly,Jim, and Iam sure you would agree with me that Kennedy should have asked my permission first out of courtesy.
many years ago when I guested at Chelmsford folk club regularly, there was a guy who used to record the evening,I had no problem with that because he asked first, and I have a couple of recordings which are now of great sentimental valueto me.
Peter Kennedy seemed to have an attitude problem, which was this that anything he collected he owned.
Those people who defend illegal bootlegging,that is recording without permission of the performer including Derek Schofield Remind me of the traveller led astray to the path of moral questionabilty by the false light of the will of the wisps, corpse candles or jack a lanterns.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:39 AM

Regarding Jim's posting, both the Tobar an Dualchais project (School of Scottish Studies and much more) and the ITMA projects have been heavily funded.
here, the BL has put lots of recordings online, although they don't seem to publicise this as much. As they now have most of the major field recording collections, the iniative has been left to them.
Generally, in England, the projects that have been funded have been to get manuscript collections online - Take 6, Baring Gould, and now the Full English.
Derek


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:17 AM

Sorry, Derek - I did, of course, mean you

And, Dick, I do see a difference between bootlegging and recording a programme off-air for later listening - and if you have never done it I would be surprised at your virtue relative to the rest of people I know.

m


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:37 AM

The technology exists to have all of these archives on-line and openly available to anyone who wants to listen. Free? In an ideal world maybe, but a nomimal cost per track would make the whole venture so much more viable. Then you could cross-reference the entire collection with singer, song-type, Child & Roud numbers inclusive of notes, transciptions, biographies, photographs etc. etc. and make it so much more useful than yet another series of lavishly packaged compilation CDs in which, yet again, the singers must take a back-seat to their songs & celebrity compilers.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:41 AM

I want to make it clear that no-where have I defended illegal bootlegging (according to my dictionary bookleg means "illicitly sold"). Please don't slur my character with claims of what I haven't said.
Derek


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Tradsinger
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:42 AM

Leaving aside the ethical issues for a moment, Peter's recordings represent a huge and unique snapshot of British and Irish folk culture on tape and video. No-one can be under the illusion that the BBC would have preserved that material or made it available.

Peter told me that Folktrax grew out of study tapes that he produced for students at Dartingon, and he always saw them as study tapes, not polished commercial products. whilst one can argue the pros and cons of that policy, he did not intend them to be comparable with Veteran, Topic, etc. Most of the recordings in his Folktrax catalogue simply did not sell.

On the point of making material available through the internet - it's a nice idea but takes a lot of work. The British Library has the resouces and has put some recordings on line, but, for example, I have made many hours of sound and video recordings of source singers that I have recorded. The 'best' of the sound recordings have been made available through Musical Traditions, VOTP and Properjob
Publications, but that still leaves a large body of my work 'unpublished'. Ideally I would like to put it all up on the internet but
a) it would take time and effort to get all the permissions from the performers or descendants of the performers,
b) It would take me many hours of work
c) I can't see there being any funding for it.

These are the factors holding me back.

Tradsinger

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 08:50 AM

I have never done it.
furthermore there is a difference between recording it for oneself and putting it up on folktrax[another label] without permission for whatever reason be it commercial or for others to study privately, permission has to ber asked first that is the Law, it is illegal and immoral if you cannot see that you are either extremely thickor immoral
the reasons why I have never done it are ,1. i cant be arsed, 2. I would rather buy a recording from an artist at a gig, because as a gigging artist Iknow how important record sales are.
Martin, its simple, do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
Kennedy, bootlegged a recording of mine without my permission, fact, he didnt just keep it in his home he advertised it on his folktrax catalogue, making it available to the public without my permission, without my permission WITHOUT MY PERMISSION, do you understand what I am saying, is that clear.
is it ok Martin for me without your permission to do that to you[ that is put a track up on another label and into the public domain and me giving permission as to who should listen to it.,
yes, I know private study:that involves the public getting permission from Kennedy to listen to it ]
how dare Kennedy have the cheek to grant permission for anyone to listen to my arrangement, without having asked me first.
kennedy clearly thought he owned the song.he never even collected it.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 12:02 PM

Derek wrote: The BL has put lots of recordings online, although they don't seem to publicise this as much. As they now have most of the major field recording collections, the iniative has been left to them.

You're right about them not publicising it - this is the first I've heard of it.

A bit of googling and flitting round the BL site reveals this:

Traditional Music in England Main Page

And this:

Traditional Music in England - Collections

Not had time to poke around the site yet. The blurb on the main page says that some of the recordings can be listened to by any memeber of the public but others are only available to people accessing them via a higher or further education institute. Whilst it's great that they are there at all, what's all that about, I wonder?

Anyway, off to explore. I may be some time...

Nigel

PS - it might be good if there was a list of all the different online traditional music archives. I wonder where would be a good place for that to live - or whether in fact one already exists? Folkepedia perhaps?


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 12:05 PM

Wow. Listening to Keith Summers' recordings of Scan Tester even as I type. This might annoy my colleagues...


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 01:36 PM

"No-one can be under the illusion that the BBC would have preserved that material or made it available."
This is simply not true.
Marie Slocum indexed and annotated the collection, the BCC broadcast some of it on 'As I Roved Out' and The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library have always held a complete set of the recordings.
Many of the problems of making the collection more widely available have arose from Peter's claim that he owned it and his demands for payment - he even claimed copyright on much of the material and sent demands of payment for such - managed to scupper plans of a 10 part set of themed books because the editor wished to use some of the texts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 01:44 PM

I'm baffled. Granted that the late Mr. Kennedy did not always disport himself in a manner deemed admirable by many (nor did either Lomax nor
Moses Asch for that matter), what wou'd y'all like to see done with the collection?
Making them available for free download dosn't seem to be a realistic approach. Somebody (presumably Topic) owns the rights to the recordings, and is entitled to a fee whenever someone else (like CAMSCO) releases some of the material. And I see no benefit to anyone by not having it available.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 02:00 PM

Lomax, Stalin, Hitler, Moses Asch, Mussolini,Mao Tse Tung, DeValera, are not relevant to this discussion.
why is not making them available for free download unrealistic,Topic was founded for altruistic purposes,what went wrong?


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

Dick G.
The collection was paid for by BBC licenceholders and British taxpayers; whoever "owns the rights" to it now does so because of the way it was acquired by Kennedy.
I would be interested to learn why returning the collection to its rightful owners is "unrealistic" - it's working for Ireland an Scotland.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM

It's always easier to ask someone else to be altruistic.Meanwhile, I'm doing my bit towards making the music available. It's certainly not a noticeable profit-making enterprise.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:51 PM

I have to admit to the dreadful crime of recording songs off radio folk programmes onto a cassette. The Good Soldier thinks this is a crime; I don't. I bet most of us have done the same. And have not the slightest objection to the practise. I am absolutely delighted that Peter Kennedy recorded a number of my own radio prorammes and catalogued them. Otherwise they would have been lost, the BBC was not specially motivated when it came to archiving their own folk recordings!
Peter Kennedy may or not have been guilty of some dubious practises. Putting his cassette recorder in front of the speaker for Folk on 2 wasn't one of them.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:56 PM

I'll tell a Peter Kennedy story.... it's largely against myself and the only excuse that I can give is that I was quite young at the time.

In the early 1970s there was a folk festival held at Newton Abbott race course and Tina and I were booked to sing there. We were singing in a concert in the big hall beneath the grandstand. One of the songs that we sang was 'Billy Taylor'. Peter Kennedy was in the hall with a stall selling his Folktrax tapes. After the concert, he approached me and the conversation went something like this:-
PK - Where did you learn that version of Billy Taylor?
VS - Oh, we were up in Fetterangus in Aberdeenshire staying with Cameron and Jane Turriff and we learned it from them.
PK - Well, that's all right then.....it's not one of mine.


I didn't understand what he meant straight away but then the implication of what he meant by the word "mine" hit me and I immediately lost my temper and bawled at him.
VS - What f**king difference would it have made if it had been one of 'yours'. It's a traditional song.

The whole place went into a hush. Peter ran out of the hall and I was left with everyone looking at me and feeling very foolish indeed.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 04:26 PM

Some way above this it says:-
Reg is not the only person involved in the second VotP series. Shirley Collins, Rod Stradling and Steve Roud are also involved. They won't be coming out as a set of 20 CDs like VotP1. They will be split into themes, sometimes double, sometimes triples, sometimes solos. I think the Shirley selection will be coming out first - southern English singers including Gypsy singers.
Derek Schofield


I think I can add to what Derek has said that as well as a compilation of southern English gypsy singers, Shirley has been preparing another of other singers from the south and as well as the Kennedy recordings, Shirley has asked for some of Bob Copper's collected items to be included. She has been preparing a third one of the great Queen Caroline Hughes including a few tracks by other members of her family.

Shirley has also been devising another of her multimedia shows based on these recordings. The format of this show - called You Never Heard So Sweet - will be the same as the previous ones with Shirley introducing the songs and telling some of the stories with the help of the actor, Pip Barnes, with Tina providing the visuals and me playing in the recordings.

The show will be seen at the following festivals:-
* Stowmarket Traditional Music Day - 3rd September
* Lewes Folk Festival - 8th October

There is talk of the show being presented in London as a launch party for the 3 CD set that Shirley has prepared and I believe that she is negotiating with other summer festivals that have expressed an interest in the show.


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM

Greg, It is about respect, it is about courtesy and manners it is called asking the permission of the artist, if you cant understand that, you should not be on the folk scene.,
GREG I am not interested in your recordings,
on that particular recording of a track from that LP the one Kennedy IlLEGALLY COPIED, it stated clearly,...copyright exists, any unauthorised broadcasting public performance, copying or re recording of such records in any manner whatsoever will constitute an infringement of such copyright, application for public perfomance should be adressed to PPL GANTON HOUSE 14 TO22 GANTON STREETLondonW1. you may or may not approve of PPL OR this law protecting recording artists, but if you or Kennedy or anyone else do this you are breaking the law.
if you think that recording something illegally and putting it up on FOLKTRAX is morally ok, and not a dubious practice, you go right down in my estimation, do you really believe we should not have a law protecting commercial recordings from being copied.
Kennedy did something dubious, illegal and immoral and unnecessary all he had to was ask me politely, one phone call, and I would have happily given him an lp


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Subject: RE: Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 02:12 AM

"It's always easier to ask someone else to be altruistic."
Is it altruistic to ask somebody to return something that has been dishonestly taken from them in the first place?
I am suggestion that the recordings be made freely available; I am not suggesting that the people who now claim 'ownership' pay for making them available; I have little doubt that a national appeal would go some way to raising the necessary funding for putting them up on the web, given the goodwill of the present 'owners'.
In the past Kennedy claimed these recordings as his own and created a minefield of threats of legal action to prevent access to them other than by buying them.
I don't take Vic's story to be against himself; it is typical of the barrier Kennedy created to protect his 'ownership'. That barrier is no longer there and modern technology has made it possible to distribute the material with relative ease.
The collection was the joint effort of Kennedy, Sean O'Boyle, Seamus Ennis, Bob Copper, Phillip Donnellan, (all commissioned by the BBC) Patrick Shouldham-Shaw, Cyril Tawney, and others; if anybody has responsibility for what happens to it, it is jointly that of the BBC and EFDSS, the project, inspired largely by Alan Lomax, was a joint one taken on by these two organisations.
As the former seems to have lost interest in it long ago, the responsibly for it now rests with The Society.
Hopefully, some day someone will write an account of the project and burst the mystical bubble that surrounds 'the Peter Kennedy collection', making these threads unnecessary.
A couple of personal experiences which sum up for me the bad feeling that has been generated by this collection.
In the eighties I was in a music session with one of the collectors, long acknowledged as a major contributor to the work, and taking the opportunity to gather some information, I naively said "I believe you worked on the BBC project with Peter Kennedy.
He immediately and extremely angrily spat out the reply; "That man is a thief", and stormed over to the other side of the bar.
A friend of mine, now dead, once sent a very important selection of songs he had recorded from a Traveller to Kennedy for his comments. The singer having previously died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Ireland, any proceeds from the use of these recordings had been donated by the collector towards the setting up of a school for Traveller children.
The recordings immediately appeared in the Folktrax catalogue, and despite numerous appeals down the years for them to be withdrawn or for a donation to the school, they remained there up to Kennedy's death; the Travellers' school, of course, never saw a penny, and later the project was abandoned due to lack of funding.
Not an image one would wish to be attached to one of the most important collections of folk songs ever made in these islands.   
Jim Carroll


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