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BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour

WalkaboutsVerse 11 Jun 11 - 06:09 AM
Bonzo3legs 11 Jun 11 - 07:30 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Jun 11 - 10:00 AM
Ebbie 11 Jun 11 - 11:05 AM
Max Johnson 11 Jun 11 - 11:47 AM
Rapparee 11 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM
Bonzo3legs 11 Jun 11 - 12:24 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Jun 11 - 12:46 PM
Brian May 11 Jun 11 - 03:09 PM
John MacKenzie 11 Jun 11 - 03:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 11 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM
John MacKenzie 11 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Jon 11 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 11 - 01:12 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 11 - 01:21 AM
Gurney 12 Jun 11 - 01:40 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Jun 11 - 05:26 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Jun 11 - 05:27 AM
Will Fly 12 Jun 11 - 06:20 AM
Silas 12 Jun 11 - 06:22 AM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 11 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Jon 12 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Jun 11 - 09:18 AM
s&r 12 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM
Ebbie 12 Jun 11 - 12:20 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM
Rapparee 12 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM
MGM·Lion 12 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM
s&r 12 Jun 11 - 04:23 PM
JohnInKansas 12 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 12 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jun 11 - 05:21 PM
Rapparee 12 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM
Noreen 12 Jun 11 - 05:31 PM
Bat Goddess 12 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM
Ebbie 12 Jun 11 - 08:10 PM
Rapparee 12 Jun 11 - 10:15 PM
Ebbie 12 Jun 11 - 11:56 PM
Bert 13 Jun 11 - 01:22 AM
Ebbie 13 Jun 11 - 02:12 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jun 11 - 02:46 AM
Teribus 13 Jun 11 - 02:50 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 11 - 03:03 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 11 - 05:00 AM
Dave MacKenzie 13 Jun 11 - 05:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM
Rapparee 13 Jun 11 - 10:24 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 11 - 10:48 AM
Rapparee 13 Jun 11 - 04:04 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Jun 11 - 04:15 PM
s&r 13 Jun 11 - 04:39 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 13 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM
s&r 13 Jun 11 - 05:59 PM
Ebbie 13 Jun 11 - 10:55 PM
Rapparee 13 Jun 11 - 11:54 PM
catspaw49 14 Jun 11 - 12:16 AM
Bonzo3legs 14 Jun 11 - 06:06 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Jun 11 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Patsy 15 Jun 11 - 09:11 AM
GUEST,999 --wikipedia with a google of bull nose 15 Jun 11 - 09:21 AM
catspaw49 15 Jun 11 - 09:30 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Jun 11 - 01:14 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Jun 11 - 01:25 PM
VirginiaTam 15 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 15 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM
s&r 15 Jun 11 - 06:27 PM
catspaw49 15 Jun 11 - 06:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Jun 11 - 08:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 15 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM
Ebbie 15 Jun 11 - 10:53 PM
catspaw49 16 Jun 11 - 12:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Jun 11 - 12:58 AM
Ebbie 16 Jun 11 - 02:27 AM
catspaw49 16 Jun 11 - 05:25 AM
Ebbie 16 Jun 11 - 11:01 AM
catspaw49 16 Jun 11 - 11:13 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Jun 11 - 02:25 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 16 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM
Ebbie 16 Jun 11 - 03:22 PM
Bonzo3legs 16 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM
s&r 16 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 19 Jun 11 - 11:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jun 11 - 09:43 PM
Stu 20 Jun 11 - 09:26 AM
Ebbie 20 Jun 11 - 11:44 AM
Stu 20 Jun 11 - 11:58 AM
Ebbie 20 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM
catspaw49 20 Jun 11 - 01:17 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jun 11 - 07:19 PM
Bonzo3legs 22 Jun 11 - 04:59 PM
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Subject: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 06:09 AM

I like some of the music but, as I just tweeted, "Re #TroopingTheColour on the #BBC, the horses ARE suffering - look at thier mouths or imagine being directed around by tugging on your gums!" Or a similar stance in verse - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#146


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 07:30 AM

Are they really - have you ever seen polo ponies who can't wait to get onto the field with their mates to play??


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 10:00 AM

..."chafing at the bit" - TRYING TO GET THE DAMN THING OUT OF THIER MOUTH.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 11:05 AM

sheesh


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Max Johnson
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 11:47 AM

Might I suggest that you take an introductory riding lesson? It's not that expensive, and for most people it's a transforming experience. Some people find that they're intimidated by horses, but that's unusual and if you're not I assure you that you'll have a wonderful time, and the horse will probably enjoy it too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM

So, ride using a hackamore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:24 PM

Going to Beaufort Polo next week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM

Dear Max, walking about:

"...sometimes, a horse will urge me make handy a grassy cup,
Or nudge for a scratch down its back and thigh;" (here)...

And, if offered a ride by its owner, it would not be "intimidation" but exactly that said in the opening-post stopping me; I like horses and, thus, would never ride one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:46 PM

Thanks, Rapparee - these seem much less cruel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_hackamore


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Brian May
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 03:09 PM

Good heavens, for a moment I thought you meant the troopers who go through hell for this parade.

These horses are some of the best cared-for animals in the country, or even the world.

Pardon me if I don't agree that it's cruel. There is far worse all over the world than what happens to these mounts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 03:36 PM

WAV does have a tradition of ranting on about things he knows eff all about. I think that all we have here, is the confirmation of the status quo. Once a div, always a div.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM

Dear John: check the BBC highlights, then, and get it straight from the discomforted horses mouth!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM

Don't you mean, Francis the talking mule?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM

have you ever seen polo ponies who can't wait to get onto the field with their mates to play??

No.

That said, a friend of mine did introduce me to her horse and I was quite surprised by the creature. It most certainly seemed to enjoy being ridden by her and also seemed quite capable of detecting that I hadn't a clue about horse riding. The feeling I had was that she was gently taking the piss when I had a ride.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:12 AM

Guest Jon ~~ A little confusion in your pronouns: but I take it that it was the horse [mare] (previouly 'it') that you thought was 'quietly taking the piss', not your friend!

Of course she enjoyed being ridden. Horses are bred as working animals, and are unhappy without some job to do. The same is true of dogs ~ dogs who are merely pets are not as content as ones given something to do ~~ racing, sled-pulling: even fetching the newspaper or the slippers. Men & women are the same ~~ the unemployed never look happy, and it isn't just the money. The horses showing their teeth and shaking their heads while being ridden on the parade were not expressing any sort of pain or discontent; just the equivalent of a tennis player catching his breath after a long rally or a man stopping for a yawn between two phases of a job.

Anyone who can't recognise this had just better be quiet on the topic.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:21 AM

I am reminded that a friend who had been a senior NCO in a cavalry regiment once told me that, at the end of a drill or a parade, after the order to dismount and before the horses were stabled, the order would be given, "Make much of your horses", and each man would pat his horse and address it affectionately.

Every rider and horse on that parade had a mutual relationship of trust and affection!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:40 AM

I have always thought that it is pretty unkind to turn a steer into a hamburger. Doesn't stop most people eating them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:26 AM

Michael: I've seen horses at ease after a FREE run in the field, and their mouths were NOT moving in the discomforted manner of those on Horse Guards Parade yesterday, e.g. - the latter WERE trying to get the damn bit out of their mouth. If your gums are not that different from a horses, try tugging on them with something like a bit for a few minutes.

Also, bulls have been bread so large the last few decades that nose rings are needed to direct them about - again via pain/discomfort, or the desire to relieve it by turning this way or that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:27 AM

Bred, sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:20 AM

bulls have been bread

Only as burgers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Silas
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:22 AM

I thought that noserings were to stop animals grazing the grass too short.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:29 AM

A horse's gums soon become accustomed to the bit as a guitarist's fingertips get hardened to the strings. Do you really imagine that the cavalry use newly reared foals for their parades? They would as soon try to get the bits out of their mouths as to lean forward as she rides through their ranks and bite the Queen.

The band drum-horses plod happily on with a pair of kettle-drums being bashed behind their ears. Do you imagine they are so nesh & soft as to be bothered by a bit they wear for several house every day of their lives?

Don't be so silly!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM

Yes it was the horse (her name was Katie btw) who I felt was making fun of me.

---

Thinking of horses and working, I think the "wanting something to do" was even more apparent when I watched the horses at the local shire horse place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 09:18 AM

That reminds me, Jon: cattle seem almost ecstatic when released to a field, after being in a barn all winter; but nowadays many never see the light of day, and are milked 3 times everyday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM

Oh dear WAV here we go again on some sort of witch hunt driven by ignorance.

Anthropomorphism should be avoided in meaningful debate... Discuss.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 12:20 PM

"...bulls have been bread so large the last few decades that nose rings are needed to direct them about - again via pain/discomfort, or the desire to relieve it by turning this way or that."

A little knowledge tends to come across as silly. WV, nose rings on a bull are nothing new, in any sense. They have little or nothing to do with size. And yes, they are meant to control them through pain or discomfort. A bull is an extremely strong animal and given their proclivities they can be very unpredictable. With a nose ring, a young bull learns very quickly how to avoid the discomfort and after that it is an implied threat.

Incidentally you may or may not have noticed that a nose ring is used in conjunction with a pole that clips onto the ring. Without the pole a bull can still attack; the pole keeps the bull at a reasonable distance.

A friend of mine was cornered in a board paddock by a Jersey bull and literally almost killed (he was in the hospital for weeks and in therapy for months).

A Jersey normally has no horns- think of the damage the bull would have done with them instead of the bludgeoning my friend got.

And before you respond by a rhetorical "Then why didn't he leave him alone?", I would point out that on occasion all cattle have to be handled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

I agree, Ebbie - except, logically, the larger the bull the more likely a nose ring (rather than just some kind of strap) would be required to control it, yes? And bulls have been bred much larger the last few decades, yes? I'm quite sure I heard the latter on CountryFile (BBC).

As for "ignorance" (Stu), I concede the only thing I've done on a farm is pick onions (here), but given that we humans also have them, it's not hard to imagine the discomfort of a horse with a tugged bit in its mouth or a bull with a pulled ring through its nose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM

If you're getting your knowledge animals and animal care from the media please take a job on a working farm or ranch for a year. I happen to know that Ebbie knows from experience whereof she speaks -- years of it.

Welsh Black cattle can weigh nearly a ton (2,000 lbs.) for both male and female. Santa Gertrudis, bred over a century ago, can weigh even more. Even a common Jersey or Guernsey milk cow outweighs a human by a few hundred pounds (well, most humans). And if you've ever been caught between a stall wall and an ordinary "gentle" milch cow (as I have) you'd know how strong they are.

The last "real" horse encounter I had was outside Freepot, Maine, with an animal that had moved there from Montana. I was stroking its nose, talking nicely to it, when it clamped its teeth on my right arm just below the elbow. The pain was pretty great, but I handled it as a True Horse Whisperer would. My left hand took hold of the horse's ear and I whispered the magic phrase known to all cowboys, "Let go, you goddamn sonuvabitch or I'll twist your f*****g ear off!" And he let go. Of course, I had bite bruises for weeks....


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM

Horses have been ridden and harnessed for draft literally since the beginning of civilisation. This has always involved some sort of bit in the mouth.

The nose-ringing of bulls is likewise of immeasurable antiquity.

Have you only just heard about it?

Honest now, WAV, what are you on about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 04:23 PM

Could you not imagine the pain felt by the onion as it is cruelly wrenched out of its home; is it not significant that the onion causes weeping in its torturers?

Does the horse say 'nay' in a vain attempt to dissuade its torturers from their cruel acts?

On a farm animals earn their keep - those that don't aren't kept out of a maudlin sentiment.

As Rapparee suggests, take a job on a farm or in a stable, and learn about animals before you pontificate.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM

Thanks, Rapparee - these seem much less cruel:

The mechanical hackamore may seem less cruel but in fact is often constructed in a way that makes it more painful for the horse. I've seen it used on "intractable" horses where it caused more pain without permanent injury than any "cruel bit" that could be used without permanent harm. The "cruel" versions of this device are prohibited in some places and kinds of events simply because they can be abusive.

Bits also come in quite a variety, some of which can cause severe pain, and others that are, in ordinary use, relatively innocuous so far as the horse is concerned.

A competent rider should never need to "pull on the reins" to guide a properly trained horse. Merely moving the reins to one side or the other will direct the horse to go in the direction the rider selects.

If it's offensive to you that the horse has something in its mouth, I'd suggest a walk through any business office an looking at the number of thoroughly chewed pensils in the cups/trays on the desks. Not everyone who has something in the mouth (or who slobbers and drools) is in pain.

The horse is (usually) bigger than the rider, but the rider is presumed (not always justifiably) to be more intelligent. Under most circumstances it's not necessary to use "pain" for the rider to tell the horse what should be done. It is always a possibility, however, that the horse may be distracted, frightened, or otherwise rendered inattentive to the wishes of the rider, and ther rider then is responsible for getting the horse's attention and maintaining proper control. The equipment used must be capable of providing communication with the horse, and of "getting its attention" in the event of any inappropriate behavior. It need not be painful, or even uncomfortable, to the horse in ordinary riding.

The rider is responsible for selecting the equipment that suits both normal and "emergeny" contingencies, with due respect to the horse; and is responsible for using the selected equipment appropriately.

Although, unlike pigs, horses do sweat some, slobbering and drooling is quite normal, both for purposes of cooling and as an indication of nervousness or excitement - which does not necessarily indicate pain or discomfort, or that the bit is irritating them.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM

MtheGM: what about Amerindians/Native Americans/First Nations?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:21 PM

well i agree with WAV. Its not nice having bits of metal in your gob. On the other hand its better than being on the menu in a french restaurant.

i think everybody is uncomfortable in trooping the colour. The queen always looked uncomfortable on a horse, and holding a salute. the soldiers used to faint with great big fur hats on. as for the horses - they should have bit the biggest ugliest of the brutes with the most medals.   Anyway i never get up in time to see it on telly. I did try and attend once, but I couldn't get an invite. No doubt you have to shoot a peasant or something to qualify.

Ricky West used to ride Champion the Wonder Horse without a bit - which proves that its just slavish adherence to past tradition that keeps this outdated practice still current.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM

I can't imagine the pain of having your nose pierced with a ring, or an eartag poked through your ear, or having your cheek cut by a bit of metal or...wait, people do that to themselves all the time. Even penis and nipple rings.

Forget I said anything.

(I wasn't thinking of mechanical hackamores.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:31 PM

BBC highlights of Trooping the Colour

Lovely, well-cared-for horses on show there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM

Plains Indians who rode and hunted from horseback used a rawhide thong around the lower jaw of the horse. That and leg pressure told the horse which direction to turn.

American Western (cowboy) horses are trained to neck rein -- the feel of the reins on their neck and pressure from the opposite leg of the rider indicates which direction the horse should turn, not pressure on the bit. While a cutting horse is working separating on steer from the herd (or similar work), the rider is mostly just along for the ride. The horse is trained so well, it doesn't need direction from the rider.

Only and inexperienced rider would jerk a horse's mouth around and most bits are there, ultimately for control, but usually due to training, not that much is needed.

A bit in itself is not cruel or even uncomfortable.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Linn


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 08:10 PM

"Not Available in Your Area"- I don't get to see the trooping of the color(s).

Unlike the custom in "English" riding, we in western America, as Bat Goddess said, always implemented neck reining. My father was a horse trainer and when a horse came to us that had learned only 'straight' reining about the first thing he did was teach it to neck rein. It is an economical movement - using only body weight and one hand - and essential when driving cattle; the horse learns it easily.

It is really something to see a cutting horse in action. My nephew has a small place near Bend, Oregon, where he trains cutting horses. It is a beautiful thing to see, probably as close to dressage as one can get in western riding. At a certain stage he drops the reins to the horse's neck and his main role from then on is to stay in the saddle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 10:15 PM

"Almost like dressage", Ebbie? As for controling horses -- look at the reins and hands of the riders riding cutting horses. Good rides rarely use the bit to control the horse -- knee pressure, neck reining, and, most importantly, a horse and rider who can work as one where each knows what the other does...and if you've ever seen the look a good horse gives a rider who's blown his or her part of job you'll know what I mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 11:56 PM

My guess is that a couple of generations ago most western cowboys had never heard the word 'dressage'. :) But that's nice work. Beauty of a horse.

But it's the cutting horse that gets my blood racing. Thanks for that link, Rapparee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 01:22 AM

If they banned trooping the colour, the very next day all those horses would be on their way to the glue factory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 02:12 AM

I doubt that very much, Bert. A healthy, in the prime of life and well-trained is not a likely candidate for years to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 02:46 AM

Next time i'm walking round B and Q and i pass the shelf full of loctite and Evo- Stik; I will get out my ukelele, sing a couple of choruses of 'A Four Legged Friend', perhaps 'Old faithful', and moist eyed, I will remember the days when those jars thought they had a tough gig - riding round with lumps of metal in their gobs and some idiot bashing a kettle drum behind each of their sensitive lugholes.

never mind Prit-Stick old feller! i will say - you had a true friend in WAV. there were some who scorned him, because he wrote avant gard poetry, didn't believe in chords, and had advanced opinions. But one day in some (in a land there is no Araldite) you and he will frolic together in a meadow - the sunshine on your flanks, and under the shade of a great horse chestnut - he will read you his poems, and you will go 'neigh! i didn't like that one much....'


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 02:50 AM

Ah well at least the working conditions of these horses have markedly improved over the course of time.

Being bothered by a bit or bridle was the last thing on their mind in times past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scotland_Forever.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 03:03 AM

---MtheGM: what about Amerindians/Native Americans/First Nations? ---

====

Well, what about them, WAV? Unique, pretty well, in having used practically no harness of any kind to ride; but then horses were no traditionally ancient part of their culture, not having been indigenous to the American continent but imported by the Spanish. I can't see how one exception to an otherwise universal rule affects my point that harness has been used for riding the horse since time immemorial.

You have, however, raised an agreeable mental image of hordes of howling Apache or Sioux on bareback mounts whooping around Horse Guards Parade, moccasins polished to a dazzling shine, feathered headdresses damped and brushed to perfection, forming pairs, fours, ranks, advancing smartly in review order...

A spectacle fit for a Queen, to be sure!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 05:00 AM

Following well worth looking up & browsing through in re topic of this thread:~

NOLAN'S SYSTEM FOR TRAINING CAVALRY HORSES.by KENNER GARRARD, CAPTAIN FIFTH CAVALRY, U. S. A.

http://9thvirginia.com/nolansys.html

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 05:16 AM

"as close to dressage as one can get in western riding."

What's that sport that William Shatner indulges in?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM

But, Linn, if you can't get the BBC link just above your post, please believe me that the discomforted mouth-movements I mentioned occured while the horses were STATIONARY on Horse Guards Parade.

And, on a lighter note, cheers Big Al! But, one correction, I've questioned "Chords in FOLK" - not in, e.g., choral evensongs, of which I've enjoyed many, on Radio 3 and in "stalls" of the other kind!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 10:24 AM

Horses WERE indigenous to the Americas; however, they went extinct until the Spanish brought in some more.

Very few glues are made from animal parts today. Chemical parts, yeah. But trying to find a good hide glue, for instance, is quite difficult. Cyanoacrylates ("super glues") are rendered down from the stalls of the chemical supply room -- as are epoxies and almost all the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 10:48 AM

Perhaps so Rapparee ~~ but the point is that they had gone extinct some centuries and many human generations earlier, so that there had been no continuous tradition of horsemanship among the indigenous American population.

WAV ~ There were no "discomforted mouth movements"; horses champ on their bits because they are there, not because they are uncomfortable. Read the Cavalry training instructions I gave the link to above, 05.00 AM, and learn something about horses ~~ a topic on which I am no expert, but on which you are clearly entirely ignorant but full of self-righteous oh-diddums PC misapprehensions.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 04:04 PM

Yes, indeed they had. So had the ground sloths, saber tooth cats, camels, dire wolves and I don't know what all. Fortunately the Spanish didn't introduce any of these, and it took the US Army to re-introduce the camel.

There is some evidence (pretty good evidence, actually) that early people in the Americas hunted mastodon and/or mammoth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 04:15 PM

Or is it you, M, who can't comprehend beyond the paradigm - within which are old sayings such as "champing/chafing at the bit", "bit between the teeth"...I repeat, the horse is not keen to get into any task, but keen to get the damn thing out of its mouth.

And I'm remined of the BBC's "Victorian Farm", or one of their other hands-on history series, where the draft horse was relatively easy to tack-up - except for the bit, because, I'm quite sure, it had remembered the discomfort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 04:39 PM

WAV - get real

My grandsons tack up their horses, including the bit. They're 11 and 12. When they go out the horses come to them from across the field, and stand without any panic or signs of discomfort while they're tacked. This is in the real world on a real farm with real people. If your information comes from observing television, it says little for your observation and little about the programmes you watch.

On a farm cattle are put in barns for their protection not as a punishment; they are put into the fields to graze not play. They are milked when their udders are full - there's no point putting a pump on a dry teat.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 05:10 PM

The modern large buildings in which, as I say, cows are kept permanently to be milked 3 times a day have much more to do with capitalism and economies of scale than "protection", Stu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 05:59 PM

You don't really understand farming do you David.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 10:55 PM

I personally have not heard of cows being milked THREE times a day, although I suppose it is possible. Twice a day is the norm.

As for being permenently kept in a barn = well, I haven't heard of that either. Again, I suppose it is possible.

Fattening steers are often kept in feed lots, a deplorable practice imo. But even they are not kept in a barn.

WV, perhaps you are vegan? If so, it stands to reason that you don't use dairy products or eat eggs. And I don't suppose you use leather products either.

In your utopia, horses and cattle roam free of any restrictions- kind of like India, eh? Do you let your dog bark? It is work, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 11:54 PM

Dogs are eaten in many places. You can buy both dog and cat meat over the Internet, if you wish.

Then again, so is rat, snake, unborn mice, and similar things I shan't go into. Protein is protein, ultimately, and if you are hungry enough you'll eat it.

Consider vegetarianism -- in climates with winter you'd be hard pressed to continue a vegetable-only diet if it were not for modern food transportation. In fact, there would be wide-spread starvation across the "civilized world."


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 12:16 AM

Geeziz Wavy.....Do you have to work at being a fuckwit or does it just seem to come naturally to you? You're not talking horses, you're talking horseshit. Its obvious to anyone who has lived long-term with dogs and horses that you are an idiot!

I love animals and I gotsta tell you Man, you need to understand them and live with them as a part of your life before you go out spouting complete claptrap. Bits for instance come in hundreds of different styles and variations and the severe types are in limited use. Good horse people can make even the most severe bit relatively painless and a bad handler can cause pain with even the gentlest bit....and in all cases adjustment and fit is critical. To many horses a bit is almost like chewing gum is to some people. It sort of gives them something to do and keeps them alert. They make some specific mouthpieces just for those horses that need that sort of thing.

For instance, Karen had a part Quarter Horse and part Tennessee Walker that she had a helluva' time keeping focused on a trail. Going down a steep hill this big mare would suddenly turn and grab some leaves off a tree or some other dumb thing. A friend suggested a bit change using a device that rolled around on the mouthpiece and she acted like a different horse.

Don't go off about things you know nothing about. Don't even get me started on dogs.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 06:06 AM

Did somebody say dogs?? Bonzo has 3 legs!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jun 11 - 06:53 PM

I think the horse should have been allowed to grab the leaves off the tree. Whats the point of being a horse if you can't horse about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 09:11 AM

I thought that a ring in the nose of a bull was an indication to humans to not mess with it or get the hell out sharpish, Lol!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: GUEST,999 --wikipedia with a google of bull nose
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 09:21 AM

"Most dairy or beef farms traditionally had at least one, if not several, bulls for purposes of herd maintenance.[12][13] The handling of an aggressive, powerful animal was a practical issue with life-threatening consequences for the farmer.[14]
Bulls respond well to a good handler

It is estimated that 42% of all livestock-related fatalities are a result of bull attacks, and only about one in twenty victims of a bull attack survives.[15] Dairy breed bulls are particularly dangerous and unpredictable; the hazards of bull handling are a significant cause of injury and death for dairy farmers in some parts of the United States.[16][17][18] The need to move the bull in and out of its pen to cover cows exposed the farmer to serious jeopardy of life and limb.[19] Being trampled, jammed against a wall or gored by a bull was one of the most frequent causes of death in the dairy industry prior to 1940.[20] As suggested in one popular farming magazine, "Handle [the bull] with a staff and take no chances. The gentle bull, not the vicious one, most often kills or maims his keeper." [21]"



The article continues and is worth reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 09:30 AM

I think they're all anxious to get on with that covering business. I know I like to cover and if you don't like that, then cover you 'cause you're covered up!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 01:14 PM

Here's a link to an article on modern mega dairies, Ebbie - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11610359. If it doesn't work in your location, just web-search "mega dairies milking three times per day" or similar.

And I don't have a dog, but quite like Jack Russels.

Spaw - If you do chew, try swapping gum for a bit, for a bit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 01:25 PM

By the way, this topic has just hit the headlines here in England as recent horse deaths at Sedgefield and Ascot have led to calls for the former to be closed down, and whipping to be banned altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 03:48 PM

I know eff all about horses (apart from thinking they are both gorgeous and terrifying) but it seems to me if an animal is in pain it would be naturally intractable. So if the bit causes pain just from being in the mouth wouldn't that defeat the purpose of controlling the animal?

I just call it yapnav oral guidance system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM

From "yapnav" to good gobbledygook, Virginia: the purpose of a bit and reins lies in "controlling the animal"/guiding it this way or that VIA A DESIRE TO RELIEVE DISCMOFORT/PAIN as pressure is applied to its gums on either side of the mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 06:27 PM

What's even worse is that quite often women have been known to ride horses. They should of course be banned from doing this BY STATUTE and the UN since their bodies (already pronounced as unfit for tennis) arebetter suited to riding e.g. scooters.

Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 06:51 PM

Ya' know Stu, I'd forgotten that previous pronouncement from Wavy. I'm sure he's got an opinion of course but it is probably as covered up as the rest.

I may start using "cover" all over the place instead of fuck!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 08:34 PM

They used to control women with a scolds bridle. I suppose if horses had had sufragettes and the vote etc., they would have made known their feelings about uncomfortable foreign objects being stuck in their mouths as a means of controlling them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM

Perhaps if horses has sufragettes, a radical mare would throw herself under the feet of the runners in the London Marathon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jun 11 - 10:53 PM

You know, ignorance sets a person's back up. WV, it seems obvious that you have no clue that horses - just like dogs - just like humans - like performing to a 'master's desire. When humans do something perfectly we are proud of ourselves. When a dog performs to its optimal training, the dog is proud(If you have no experience in seeing that, I have a lot of instances I can tell you about.) When a horse does the same, that horse is PROUD. I know "they" say that horses are not smart, but I know better. A great many horses do not perform well when it isn't worth it to them, but there are horses who have an active connection to their human beings and do remarkable things. I - and my family - have many stories to relate.

So unless you already know that, you are being condescending in a very unpleasant manner. Coddling or forceably idling a horse is doing that horse no favors.

I suspect that you have taken Gulliver's Travels too literally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 12:25 AM

"A great many horses do not perform well when it isn't worth it to them, but there are horses who have an active connection to their human beings and do remarkable things."

Seattle Slew....case in point.

One of the great Thoroughbreds of the 20th Century, rated in the Top 10. Slew hated training and would do nothing on training days. He went through the motions but it was impossible to get anything meaningful out of him. He came from excellent breeding but was such an unlikely prospect as a yearling that he sold for a paltry sum, something under $20,000. But he matured and even though seemingly a lazy training horse, he went undefeated as a two year old. Then as a three year old won the Triple Crown and is still the only horse to do so undefeated. He raced a few more years with some dramatic results and then went on to a spectacular stud career.

On race days, Slew was a different horse. As he did the parade before entering the gate, only then would he do this funny prance they called "Slew's War Dance." On the track he was fearsome and was equally capable of running at the back and coming on late or rabbiting out to a blistering pace in the lead. When the racing was done, he lazed out as if saying, "I'm the greatest and I don't need no stinking training!"

Said of Slew........."He had that special something that no one can ever really truly describe. He had character and a pizzazz that enhanced the raw talent that he displayed as a runner. He simply was the most electrifying and magnetic horse the industry has ever witnessed."

................and he knew it! Big Red (Secretariat) might well disagree but not many others!   Seattle Slew


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 12:58 AM

'A great many horses do not perform well when it isn't worth it to them, but there are horses who have an active connection to their human beings and do remarkable things."

That guy on Jerry Springer who made love to his Shetland pony. Case in point.

What kept the guy interested? Could the pony fake orgasms? Dress up in exotic underwear on his birthday? Was he the pony's main sexual partner, or just a bit on the side?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:27 AM

Got an answer for you, Big Al: Don't watch Jerry Springer. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 05:25 AM

Not watch Jerry???? I ask you Ebbie, where else can you see a trans-gender, transvestite, Inuit, who is in love with Sarah Palin in pedal pushers and carrying a 30.06, have a wish fulfilled by the D.A.R.?

That was a really sweet program I tell you. We all got to see he/she/it buttfuck Sarah while she wore a Revereware pot and rang a bell screaming that the British were here and on their way to Russia.   Truly inspiring...............


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 11:01 AM

In pedal pushers? The Inuit or Palin? (I am a very visual person.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 11:13 AM

Let's say both...........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:25 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6HMXq_u-mI&feature=related

Here are some horses (ponies) really enjoying themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 02:37 PM

More-and-more complained about spurs, Spaw; more-and-more are complaining about whips; and a few are beginning to see the light re bits, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:22 PM

Bonzo3legs, a horse does not lie. Watch the ears and the tails- those 'ponies' are extremely focused and doing their utmost. And yes, most of them are enjoying themselves.

My father never used or allowed spurs, nor did/do any of his children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM

At that level of polo, the ponies are rested after a few minutes, and maybe used again later in the game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 16 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM

More and more...who and how many?

More and more.....who and how many?

A few are beginning to see the light.....as preached by your resident missionary.

David you are as always more wrong than right, but you never see it - perhaps we should ban blinkers, or you should stop wearing them.


Stu


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 11:40 AM

On the Andrew Marr Show (BBC) guests review our Sunday papers, who declared "Royal Ascot" (mentioned above) something of a disaster this year. The republican Oliver Cromwell, of course, made horse racing illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 11 - 09:43 PM

I saw that program, and the bulk of the disaster was in fact eight men deciding to have a John Wayne style punch up, and Wayne Rooney's squeeze turning up hatless on ladies' day.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 09:26 AM

The best thing about horses is they look magnificent, work hard, embody a spirit of wildness and integrity that communicates directly to the soul and they taste good too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 11:44 AM

Can't ask for more than that, Sugarfoot. Sugarfoot? Hmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Stu
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 11:58 AM

Sugarfoot, not gluefoot or gumfoot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 01:17 PM

Can we call Wavy "Dungfoot" because he's full of shit and keeps putting his foot in his mouth?


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 07:19 PM

""The best thing about horses"" - is that they don't bet on humans to win races and start a punch up when they lose.

This is known as "Horse Sense".

They don't eat us either!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 11 - 04:59 PM

The horses (ponies) - possibly up to 50 of them who took England to a stunning victory over New Zealand last Saturday at Beaufort Polo Club had a great day.


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