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BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables

Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 11 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 21 Apr 11 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,lively 21 Apr 11 - 06:20 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Apr 11 - 06:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 11 - 06:31 PM
GUEST,lively 21 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM
Dave MacKenzie 21 Apr 11 - 06:44 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 21 Apr 11 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,Paul Burke 21 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 21 Apr 11 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,lively 21 Apr 11 - 07:20 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 21 Apr 11 - 07:57 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 11 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Eliza 22 Apr 11 - 03:29 PM
Dave MacKenzie 22 Apr 11 - 03:36 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 22 Apr 11 - 04:08 PM
Boho 22 Apr 11 - 09:02 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 11 - 02:49 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 11 - 12:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 11 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Eliza 23 Apr 11 - 01:56 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 Apr 11 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Eliza 23 Apr 11 - 02:16 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 11 - 03:14 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 23 Apr 11 - 04:47 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 11 - 03:36 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Apr 11 - 04:50 AM
GUEST,lively 24 Apr 11 - 05:15 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 24 Apr 11 - 05:19 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Apr 11 - 05:36 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Apr 11 - 05:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 11 - 06:29 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 24 Apr 11 - 06:34 AM
Silas 24 Apr 11 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 11 - 06:37 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 24 Apr 11 - 07:30 AM
Silas 24 Apr 11 - 08:17 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 24 Apr 11 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 11 - 09:05 AM
Dave MacKenzie 24 Apr 11 - 09:09 AM
Silas 24 Apr 11 - 10:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 11 - 11:18 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 24 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 24 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM
josepp 24 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 24 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Eliza 24 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM
Fred McCormick 24 Apr 11 - 02:21 PM
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Subject: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:07 PM

Currently a documentary on TV. I am finding it a difficult thing to watch but it is very important. When 2 x 10 year old boys commit such an awful act who is to blame? I honestly don't know but, judging from first hand evidence, the lads didn't know any better.

Very, very sad indeed.

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:15 PM

Daily Mail wants clear cut villains,


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:20 PM

All the hysterical reaction suggesting that the child perpetrators of this crime were somehow innately evil and far worse than adults who do similar things far more frequently, left me fuming. As far as I recall, at least one of the boys involved had an abusive father. My view is hat it is most likely that they were behaving no differently to the way in which dogs which get kicked about also tend to behave. Tragic circumstances and consequences. But the fact that Bulger was murdered by children in no way makes his or his family's suffering, or public approbation of such acts, any greater than that of the far greater number of children who are tortured, raped and murdered by adults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:26 PM

Hmm, what could the greatest good of the greatest number possibly require?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:31 PM

Not sure, Richard. But I am sure that we cannot solve it here. Although some will inevetably try. Sadly:-(

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:34 PM

Depends on the society Richard I suppose. But personally I don't believe that Utilitarian principles (if that is what you are invoking as you appear to be) are innately moral or indeed necessarily for the common or greater 'good'. For example, public hangings and stonings are known to make many people very happy, indeed often irrespective of such small matters as the certain guilt of the one being publicly executed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:44 PM

"the certain guilt of the one being publicly executed."

Considering how many were actually executed, I'm sure there must have been more than one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:48 PM

You can search their backgrounds for excuses all you want, many people came from broken homes and suffered at the hands of violent parents and turn out to be admirable responsible adults.

The truth is, they were bad evil bastards and should be hounded for the rest of their pitiful lives for what they did to that innocent child.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 06:53 PM

Richie Black shgows once more that he's sen by some as an an emotional cripple. Some kids survive. Fine, Some don't. We#re talking about the latter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 07:04 PM

Yes of course, that is the problem. Their fathers never took them to see a football match, they never tasted steak until they were eleven, their mothers suffered depression, blah fuckin blah.

The fact is, both bastards terrorised the neighbourhood they lived in, they told neighbours they could not touch them due to their age, they beat this child senseless and admitted they placed him on a railway track so he would be cut in half.

Their location should be exposed, they should be hounded and hopefully experience a meeting with local community representatives on a dark night.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 07:20 PM

Compare and contrast Richie, this is what smart countries do:

The story of little Silgie and her 6 yr. old killers


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 07:57 PM

You should pass that link onto the Bulger family, let me know how you get on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 03:20 PM

No doubt, in the good old days of capital punishment Little Richie would have been at the head of the queue to volunteer to swing on their feet to make up the necessary weight!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 03:29 PM

This raises the enormously complex questions about culpability, blame and punishment. All one can say is that such people are dangerous to the rest of us, so some form of exclusion, in prison, psychiatric hospital, secure accommodation or whatever is essential. Those who work later towards having them released face a huge responsibility. Will they continue to be a danger? How can anyone know? No matter how much one pities these lads,(and I for one do) we can't risk freeing them unless we're sure they're not a threat, and we'll never be sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 03:36 PM

I have a daughter who's a paediatrics consultant in child protection, one son who's a fairly senior probation officer, and another who's a prison governor. I'm quite happy to let them get on with the job without interference from me, as I know they know a lot more about the subject than I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:08 PM

None of their professions are easy, they have to remain impartial at all times, despite seeing and having to deal with victims and perpetrators. I doubt any of you would find such a position suitable for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Boho
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 09:02 PM

My earlier post got deleted, I guess because I forgot to sign in, although I did claim the post shortly after.

What it said was that several scientific studies have shown that abuse and neglect in childhood can have damaging effects on the structure and chemistry of the developing brain.

"Several studies now document that abuse damages key brain structures such as the cortex, which is associated with rational thinking, and the hippocampus, which helps process memories and emotions. Both brain regions are critical for learning."

How child abuse and neglect damage the brain

Some studies have apparently shown significantly lower scores for empathy in abused children.

This could be relevant at least in Thompson's case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:49 AM

"I'm quite happy to let them get on with the job without interference from me, as I know they know a lot more about the subject than I do."
Sounds like good sense to me.
Threads like this always bring out of the woodwork those ready to incite mob rule to drag the prisoners out of the jailhouse and string them up to the nearest tree.
Whatever these children did, the law says they have to be dealt with according to their age; the alternative being to place our legal system in the hands of the scabloid press and its adherents.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:06 PM

Ah ~ diddums ~ children. Sweet ickle kiddy-winkies. Oh dere-dere den...

Mind you, when I was 10 I knew it would be ever·so ever·so naughty to bash a little boy to death & throw his body on to a railway line for the train to mash up.

Didn't you?

But then, as MacNeice said of the Ancient World and I always think of my early days -

"It was all so unimaginably different
And all so long ago"

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:16 PM

Some aspects of the murder were not made public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM

Police determined that James had been laid by the waist onto the rail, with his upper body on the inside of the tracks. It looked as if his head had been covered with bricks, but the force of the train disturbed the arrangement. The lower half of his body had been carried further down the track.

His clothing, which had been removed from the waist down, was laid near his head. His underwear was heavily soaked with blood. Nearby police found a heavy iron bar, two feet long, with bloodstains, and many bricks and stones with blood. They also found 3 AA batteries near the body. These batteries intrigued the investigators, who had suspicions about their placement before James was hit by the train. A tin of blue paint was also found nearby. James had been severely beaten around the head and neck. There had been fractures, cuts, bruises caused by blows from heavy blunt objects and there had been severe bleeding. On one cheek, a patterned bruise appeared, which indicated the imprint from a shoe. Although there was no conclusive evidence indicating a sexual assault, forensic specialists believed that some of the injuries below the waist were suspicious and sexual in nature.

Even the most experienced investigators were shocked and dismayed by the injuries to James. "You slip into professional mode, but you can never, ever forget," said Kirby, years later. It was bad enough that he had been abducted and murdered, but the beating was brutal, incomprehensible. Although it was common knowledge that a train had severed James's body (the kids who discovered him were already talking to reporters), the police decided to withhold the nature of the James's injuries from the public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 12:59 PM

I feel desperately sorry for Denise Bulger....and for the train driver too. And of course, it goes without saying, for little Jamie. How can any mother close her eyes at night, in peace, again, after her child ended his life on earth in this way.

John Venables, I believe, is back in prison. Whatever happened to both these boys was no excuse for what they went on to do to an innocent little boy.

Whilst I understand how hard life is for so many unloved, abused children, it still does not excuse this type of thing happening, and the boys have to face responsibility for what they did.

Whether they can move on, I've no idea. Whether they should be allowed to...I've no idea.

Certainly though, little Jamie Bulger never got the opportunity to grow up as these boys have grown up.

If a dog had ripped James in two, it would have been put down, plain and simple.   

I think sometimes, brains are either born so disconnected and miswired, or become so due to shocking abuse, that there is very little hope of a 'normal' life ever being lived. We, as humans, struggle terribly when those brains belong to children, whereas we would be baying for blood, were they adult brains.

My emotions lie with Jamie's Mother and Father, for each and every day, they have to live with the images of what happened to their beautiful, innocent and happy child, simply because for a moment he let go of his mother's hand...and took the hands of two boys who had planned to do what they did to a little toddler.

There but for the grace of God go all Mothers and their Children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 01:56 PM

I still can't imagine (and I suppose neither can anyone else) WHY they did it. What was going on in their minds? Was it insanity? Plain evil? Could any such acts be those of a sane mind? And if insane, can they be punished? Surely they can never be released if there's the tiniest chance they may do anything like this again. Ten years old is not so young as not to know right from wrong. These young men are and always will be terribly dangerous. Can they be 'cured'? I doubt it myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:05 PM

Eliza, I'm not saying this is the reason, but....children's minds these days are filled with fearsome images. Many are allowed to watch horrendous videos, and play horrendous video games WAY beyond their age.

I've no idea why people want to play, watch or make these things in the first place, but the images MUST be lodged somewhere in the minds of little children....desensitizing them in a most disturbing way sometimes.

Some minds aren't troubled by hideous images at all, but some are, deeply troubled.

Do children sometimes think that all will come 'back to life', just as in the video games, I wonder? Are they so used to "Kill! Kill" KILL!" that it becomes second-nature to some..?

Who knows...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:16 PM

I heard that they'd watched 'Child's Play 3', a horror movie, and had re-enacted it. But at the age of ten, a normal child knows that torture and murder are wicked. I feel you're right Lizzie, that the film had somehow triggered something within them, and being seriously disturbed by abuse, they had become psychopathic, not seeing or feeling the agony of another. But we'll never really know I suppose. As you've said, James' mother must have suffered the torments of hell and still does, poor soul.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 03:14 PM

"Ah ~ diddums ~ children. Sweet ickle kiddy-winkies. Oh dere-dere den..."
Wonder why we have such funny laws that prevent children from being punished the same as adults?
Perhaps we should let Rupe the Murdoch make our laws for us, then we can all sleep soundly in our beds!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 04:47 PM

Call it what you want, find all the excuses that you like. It was rotten badness, nothing else , pure rotten badness and all the social workers and do gooders on the planet were never going to change these two bastards from hell.

Christ, how did we ever live without these wonderful people who manufacture reasons why people carry out such acts ?

Let's look into the reasons why they carried it out my arse. They carried out a premeditated sadistic murder of a child, yes a child that took their hand in innocence and walked to a place where he no doubt cried for his mother, cried in pain, cried in fear. They took turns at hitting him, injuring him, killing him and finally, planning his dissection and capitation.

Any of you that ignore all of these facts and have the cheek to look upon the perpetrators as victims are gullible and lacking in reality. May these two bastards roast in hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 03:36 AM

"Perhaps we should let Rupe the Murdoch make our laws for us"
Or Richie Black maybe?
A couple of days in Santiago Stadium would have sorted them out!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 04:50 AM

Jim, you have to be very, *very* careful here *not* to belittle what Denise Bulger and her ex-husband have to live with for the rest of their days. You also have to imagine the traumatic fear this little lad must have experienced before, hopefully, unconsciousness finally drew a curtain for him, prior to his death.

It is Jamie and his parents who are paramount here, no matter what else took place in the lives of others.

Nothing can, or should, ever negate their pain.

I understand exactly where Richie is coming from, to be honest...but I also understand that for any child to even think of such a crime, let alone carry it out, means that something, somewhere is broken beyond belief within that child or children.

Even so, the major victims in this terrible crime will always be, and must always remain, imo, Jamie Bulger and his family.

A few articles which speak of the boys back when it happened, and Jon Venables job as a bouncer, prior to him being re-arrested. Interestingly both set of parents blame the other child for leading *their* child into this terrible murder. BOTH children were left to watch harrowing videos, play harrowing computer games, with no supervision at all.

Telegraph article on Jon Venables

Jon Venables mother talking about her son

The drawing done by Venables, a few weeks before the murder

Profiles of the two boys





What worries me still, to this day, is that nothing has been learnt from this traumatic murder. Parents still allow their children to watch dreadful things, queueing up to buy them the latest violent game, often way beyond their age limit.

And even WITH the appropriate age limit mind-set, WHY do so many in our species, want to killkillkill?? WHY are these games made in the first place, and why do so many people become so addicted to them, particularly men?

Why did film makers, video game makers, not all come together to say "ENOUGH!" and change what they put out? Why did they not choose to start producing films/games of high adventure, but without gruesome plot lines, without endless killings, without hideous 'special effects'?   

What is it in, in the minds of some that almost wants violence on a never ending basis?

We have several generations who have now been raised on violence as 'entertainment'....and just look at the state of our world, the state of so many people and their children!

This unbelievable case was THE time for everyone to stand up and say how stupid they'd all been, how EVERYONE was guilty, in some way or other, either through making the videos/films, or buying them, or simply keeping silent about this problem.

On Dartmoor, where I used to live, I had to stop my daughter from going to a young girl's house, because her mother allowed this child to watch terrible videos. She was 10 years old. They were her brother's videos and she watched them whilst being left alone for most of the day, upstairs, whilst her parents ran the village pub. They were stressed, overworked and depressed, but they had no thought for Katie or her mind.   I asked her once, in complete innocence, prior to me knowing what was going on, what sort of films she liked, expecting her to say Disney, or musicals, or some such thing...She told me her favourite film was a Clint Eastwood one, where the flesh gets burnt of his arm. She loved to watch that clip over and over and over. I just stared at her, in horror.   

My kids were raised on Hollywood Musicals, 'Singing in the Rain' 'Seven Brides for Seven Brothers', Disney, or films with great stories, that left you feeling inspired afterwards, because I wanted them to experience the kind of films I was raised on too.

I cannot watch horror movies, never have been able to, because I see in pictures, so those images remain vivid in my head for years afterwards because every time someone mentions a word to do with a horror film, BAM!, out comes the image. Even Michael Jackson's 'Thriller' was awful for me, couldn't watch it, still can't.

I watched many war films when I was young because they were on TV a lot back then, not that long after WWII, 20 years or so, so that war was still fresh in the memory of all, but you were spared seeing the blood and guts. There wasn't a graphic 'zoom in' on someone's innards being outtards...but you still knew the suffering, the traumas of war, without feeling traumatised yourself. Now, so many films seem to glorify in the most graphic gruesomeness they can think of, seemingly wanting to outdo anyone else in the horror stakes.

I once saw Quentin Tarantino being interviewed. I kinda put him down as *severe* Aspergers immediately. Brilliant man, yup, but he ADORES violence, and the sicker the better...he finds it hilarious you see, absolutely hilarious and the more violence, the more violent that violence IS, the happier he is, the more he laughs. My blood ran cold when I watched him, because he has had such a profound effect on so many minds. Minds which ARE affected deeply by what they see. Minds which cannot switch off, or remove those images...ever.   

Many of those minds can only cope by de-sensitising, and they do that, often, by watching more and more and MORE violence of ever-increasing nastiness, until it no longer sickens them, because they no longer FEEL. They have switched off entirely...and so nothing, NOTHING means anything any longer, nothing shocks, nothing upsets...Just a numbness is there...

It is a HUGE problem, a devastating problem to society, to us as a species. It spills over into child-rearing, animal care, even love itself. Although love has been replaced by sex for so many, again, stripping away the emotion of the soul, replacing it with a physical need and little else.

I think I'm right in saying that a few years back David Puttnam stopped making films, because he was so distressed at the violence he saw coming out of Hollywood. The man who brought him back to film-making was George Clooney. I saw George giving him a Life-Time Achievement Award and David talking about his respect for Clooney's films etc...Apologies if I've got that wrong, it was many years back, but I'm sure it WAS David Puttnam.   

Short Bio

>>>"My belief is that no movie, nothing in life, leaves people neutral. You either leave them up or you leave them down." - David Puttnam

Producer David Puttnam valued artistry and the moral accountability of film characters over box-office returns. Born of a working-class family in England, he got his start as an advertising photographer in London during the 1960s. He then moved to movie production and made a few little-known films before he and director Alan Parker scored big with Bugsy Malone (1976). He and Parker then went on to make the Academy Award winning Midnight Express (1978). Amidst all the acclaim for that gripping true story of an American placed in a Turkish prison after drugs are found on him in customs, Puttnam publicly apologized for any exploitative affects the film had on audiences, thus earning him the reputation as a "responsible renegade." During his career, he had an eye for talented new directors and facilitated the debuts or breakthroughs of filmmakers such as Ridley Scott, Roland Joffe, and Bill Forsyth. He became chief of production for Columbia Pictures in 1986. There he promised to focus on cost-effective productions with an emphasis on artistry and also promised to bring in international filmmakers to diversify the type of films Columbia put out. Many of the films he produced there dealt with sensitive areas of society and politics. Puttnam avoided exploitation films and became aggressively dogmatic in his criticism of films such as Rambo because he felt the film's message morally irresponsible. He also showed little respect for the intelligence and moral fortitude of his audiences; eventually his ethical arrogance began to grate on those he worked with, and Puttnam was persuaded to leave Columbia -- with a $3 million golden parachute to soften the blow. His productions there were never released. Finally Puttnam went back to England where he continued to make films." ~ Sandra Brennan, Rovi<<<<

From 2000, Richard Attenborough talking about the same worries:

Richard Attenborough 'Violence Begets Violence'


We have ignored this at our own peril. There will be other Jamie's, other Robert's and Jon's...and the silence will continue to echo off the fridigly cold, de-sensitised walls of violence, where once echoed the warmth of far more humanity


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,lively
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:15 AM

"Parents still allow their children to watch dreadful things, queueing up to buy them the latest violent game, often way beyond their age limit."

Lizzie did you read that piece on the picture? Did you notice the large naked breasts on the knife wielding monster in the drawing which was entitled "My Dad's House"? Did you notice the fact that Venebles had been subject to violence from his Mother - who going on his illustration of her, presumably liked to assault her son naked. I expect she got off on it, can you imagine your naked mother or father beating you to crap every day as a little girl? I wonder how old he was when that started, two maybe - maybe the age of Bulger, or younger? Who knows. But that's obviously what caused his brain to screw up. Serious physical, sexual and psychological abuse (not silly videos, though I don't think they are a positive influence) creates seriously disturbed children. Children who are abused that way, by their parents, learn that that is normal. Most of those who then go on to become abusers, do so at at older age, by which time they have matured and hopefully had other learning experiences. I don't believe Venebles knew right from wrong, he'd been repeatedly taught that wrong was right by his abusive mother, I don't believe that he was any more innately evil than you are. Nor was he innately any more good, you mention your loving father a lot, you were fortunate and learned those things you needed to learn from people who loved you. So did most of us. Venebles didn't and little Jamie Bulger got tragically caught up in a much bigger picture of ongoing abuse being perpetrated by people who should have been loving mummy and daddy, but who weren't.
Could Venebles ever be rehabilitated? Perhaps. People can go through very shocking things, and do so.

But I don't believe it was ever going to be a likelihood in our system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:19 AM

The thread is about a child being murdered, his head pulverised by an iron bar, placed on a railway track and cut in half, and Carroll attempts to use it to score points against me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:36 AM

From that link, lively:

"...At first sight, it appears to be a child's attempt at illustrating a terrible nightmare.

But what makes this image so horrifying is that it was a violent fantasy, inspired by the 18-rated horror movie Halloween, and that the ten-year-old artist was close to committing a deadly act of his own in real life...."


These images remain, long after the TV has been turned off. They disturb a child's mind, possibly for years to come.

We are not addressing the problem whatsoever.

I recall going into a computer game shop when my lad was fairly young, asking if they had games for children, any new ones...ones without violence. The young man looked at me kinda weird...then he told me I was the first parent who'd ever asked him about a non-violent content. He told me that most parents just bought what the chidlren wanted, never asked a thing. It worried him too...

These videos aren't 'silly'. Most of them aren't even watched by parents...or weren't. Nowadays of course, many parents themselves are raising children on the videos they watched as children and guess what, those videos were violent too, because several generations have been raised on them.

People become 'detached' from reality....

I believe violent videos and computer games, damage as many children as actual violence in the home does...but we have turned away from even thinking about it.

Many children are abused, but they don't go on to do what these two lads did. I have someone close to me who had the most traumatic of childhoods, abuse was all around him. He grew up to be a nurse, evenutally, once all the drink and drugs had been dealt with. He knows it made a difference to him, LONGED to have a loving father, but his father abandoned he and his brother very early on. To this day he has no confidence and feels a gaping hole inside.   He would never have done what these two boys did though, neither would his brother.

So what is it in today's society that damages children even MORE than ever before, to the point where gangs of kids cut off a puppy's ears, as happened a few years back, to the point where children's cruelty towards animals, towards each other is so big that even the President of the USA has made a video about the problem..?   

Eyes wide Shut is the problem.   
Corporate Films and Games Profit is the problem.
Let the kids watch what they want, anything to keep them quiet! is the problem..
Lack of love is the problem
Dumbing down is the problem

Houston, we have a MAJOR problem!

Sadly, Ground Control has disconnected.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 05:42 AM

I'm with you on that one, Richie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:29 AM

The thread is about a child being murdered...

It is not, Richie. That is a very important part obviously but it is about a documentary on TV the other night that I found difficult to watch as it opened up all sorts of questions that we had forgotten about.

I was sort of hoping it would help answer those questions I had but I realise that hope was folorn. The thread has already been spoiled by fools.

I will leave you too it.

MP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:34 AM

Lizzie. Sadly there is a big demand for violent abusive films and video games. I can never understand why anyone would want to sit down and view such tripe. What is also disturbing, is the fact some parents watch their children sitting wide eyed and glued to a gaming controller cutting heads of the approaching enemy with machetes and shouting "yeah, got you". In a lot of cases, it keeps them occupied and not under their parents feet.

Have you noticed, no one is just evil these days, when someone murders a woman or a child, the bleeding heart brigade in our society conjurer up reasons such as "his drunken mother had sex with numerous men if front of him," or "his father sexually abused him" to give some reasonable understandable cause to the actions of some evil bastard as he smirks over a courtroom at the family of his victims.

Sadly cases of sadistic murder or torture of children are rising. I am sorry if I lack sympathy or compassion, but in my opinion, any man that attacks, rapes or beats a woman or child forfeits his place in society. PERMINENTLY.

As juveniles these two tormented, tortured old age pensioners in their homes. It went unpunished due to their age, they graduated to taking an innocent child and put him through an horrific ordeal then trail his blood soaked body to a railway track to watch it cut in half, that was calculated murder, they weren't cleansing their minds of past deeds they saw in the home, they wanted to murder a baby and they did it, most likely in the knowledge some goon of a social worker would be too willing to fight their corner if they were ever caught.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:35 AM

Well, I never thought I would ever say this, but I agree with Richies first post on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 06:37 AM

Lizzie;
With respect, and no reflection whatever on Jamie Bulger's parents - this is about a horrendous act carried out by two CHILDREN against another child, and how it should be dealt with - that is the issue here.
Unfair as it may seem to some, the judicial system in Britain is not geared to providing retribution for those affected by crimes, nor should it be - an eye-for-an-eye belongs in the dustbin that is The Old Testament.
An appaling act has been carried out by two chidren; I have no idea why they did what they did any more than you do, nor do I know what should happen to them - do you?
I do know that the 'rope-over-the nearest branch' solution is not one I'd want to contemplate (not put forward yet, but just lurking below the surface).
These threads always drag the usual stereotypes and caricatures out of the woodwork, from "it would never have happened in my day" Colonel Chinstraps, to the Matthew Hopkins school of law and justice - which one would you choose - if either?
And Keith's cut-'n-paste public displaying of the corpse in all his gory detail is yet another of his classics!
I don't know the whys and wherefores of this - do you think you do well enough to suggest a solution?
As little respect as I have for The Establishment I'm happy (and extremely grateful) to leave this one to the experts - it's what keeps that thin veneer between civilisation and barbarism in place, and long may it be there.
Richie Black is a knuckles-along-the-ground fascist with knuckles-along-the-ground solutions to the world's problems, and makes no effort to disguise the fact.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 07:30 AM

Silas, like myself you were probably raised by a generation that taught us right from wrong. I really can't tolerate this age of finding excuses for rotten badness. A member of my family worked in a psychiatric hospital as a nurse. Some time back, a 17 year old thug beat an 84 year old woman to a inch of her life in her own home and stole cherished items and money. As she recovered on a surgical ward with a stainless steel frame bolted to her lower jaw being fed by a tube, the thug who did it was admitted to the psychiatric unit for assessment after he threatened to kill himself. He admitted with laughter to other patients it was his solicitor that advised him to go to his GP as it would help his case. His hospital admission and tender young years were used in court to his advantage.

Society needs to focus on the victims and not finding excuses for bad evil bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:17 AM

Don't get me wrong Richie, I agree with your first post, that is all. I detest the values you stand for and I find you an obnoxious and provocative poster.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 08:55 AM

No problem Silas, enjoy the Easter break.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 09:05 AM

Hard to notice that other than Richie Blackshirt's profound "evil bastards" and "hound 'em out of town" solutions, nobody has offered an argument, articulate or otherwise, as to why they did it and what should happen to them.
Nor has anybody from the "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade responded to the fact that they were children and the law in Britain says they should be treated as such.
Change the law - just for this case, or for crimes committed by all those presently regarded as 'children'???
Come on people - don't be shy!
They were children, and unless someone has recently discovered an 'evil' gene, are creations of our adult society.
Some of this reminds me of the screaming rabble gathering around the prison van coming out of the court, whether a verdict has been arrived at or not.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 09:09 AM

As far as I'm concerned, if our society produces 'evil monsters' then we're all guilty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Silas
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 10:55 AM

These 'evil' children will grow up to be 'evil' adults. Permanent incarceration or capital punishment are the only two options.

Ye4s, before you ask, I AM serious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:18 AM

I think it best to know exactly what you are pontificating about.
Jim does not like anything revealed if it does not fit his preconceptions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM

He just breezes in Keith hoping to rub one member against another, he is best ignored. I would of thought a patriot of his calibre would have been giving the address at Arbour Hill today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

Both convict have received extensive therapy and rehabilitation during their incarceration.

Anybody here with a clear and factual insight into the success of the treatment?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: josepp
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM

Personally, I'm with Richie Black. Fry the fuckers. As if any of you will really lose a wink of sleep over it. Sanctimonious bastards--all of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM

Charming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 12:51 PM

I'm not so sure that there's no such thing as an 'evil gene'. It could be rare and recessive, but an 'evil personality' can exist from birth IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bulger, Thompson, Venables
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Apr 11 - 02:21 PM

"Ah ~ diddums ~ children. Sweet ickle kiddy-winkies. Oh dere-dere den..."

So MtheGM knows the differency wifferency between righty wighty and wrongy wongy. Of course he does. He was born into a nice middle class home with a great big silver spoon in his mouth, and probably a nanny to take him walkies round the park. If he'd played with those rough lads in those no hope tenements - you know the ones. No class, no style, no inside toilets, no bathrooms, and very likely a shared standpipe in the middle of the court as the only source of water - mumsie wumsie would have sent him straight to bed without any suppery wuppery.

No, MtheGM wasn't born on a sink estate populated by drug addicts and ne'er do wells. Nor was he born of parents who were too thick and hopeless to know how to bring him up and, if memory recalls, spent all their time watching violent porn.

I'm not sure which I find the most detestable, M the GM's opinions, or the sickening, patronising tissue of nonsense he chooses to wrap them up in. But then I always found the English middle class an odd lot.


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