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BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor

Ebbie 17 Apr 11 - 04:36 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Apr 11 - 05:08 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Apr 11 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Apr 11 - 05:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 11 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,Rapparee 17 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Apr 11 - 05:53 PM
michaelr 17 Apr 11 - 05:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 11 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,Eliza 17 Apr 11 - 06:15 PM
Ebbie 17 Apr 11 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Apr 11 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 17 Apr 11 - 09:52 PM
Janie 17 Apr 11 - 10:16 PM
Rapparee 17 Apr 11 - 10:46 PM
Mick Woods 18 Apr 11 - 02:38 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Apr 11 - 02:46 AM
Penny S. 18 Apr 11 - 03:30 AM
Ann N 18 Apr 11 - 03:34 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 18 Apr 11 - 03:38 AM
Ebbie 18 Apr 11 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 18 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 18 Apr 11 - 04:00 AM
Musket 18 Apr 11 - 04:01 AM
Wolfhound person 18 Apr 11 - 04:07 AM
Penny S. 18 Apr 11 - 04:28 AM
Penny S. 18 Apr 11 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Apr 11 - 05:07 AM
Silas 18 Apr 11 - 05:16 AM
Will Fly 18 Apr 11 - 06:05 AM
Wolfhound person 18 Apr 11 - 06:11 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 07:15 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM
Max Johnson 18 Apr 11 - 07:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 11 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Apr 11 - 08:52 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM
Penny S. 18 Apr 11 - 09:51 AM
Lox 18 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM
Richard Bridge 18 Apr 11 - 10:29 AM
Lox 18 Apr 11 - 10:41 AM
katlaughing 18 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 18 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM
Stu 18 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM
pdq 18 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM
Musket 18 Apr 11 - 01:10 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM
Will Fly 18 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM
Smedley 18 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM
Max Johnson 18 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 18 Apr 11 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 18 Apr 11 - 03:16 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Apr 11 - 03:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Apr 11 - 03:35 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 04:58 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM
Lox 18 Apr 11 - 05:05 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 11 - 07:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 11 - 07:32 PM
Janie 19 Apr 11 - 12:14 AM
Janie 19 Apr 11 - 12:24 AM
Ebbie 19 Apr 11 - 01:30 AM
J-boy 19 Apr 11 - 01:39 AM
Richard Bridge 19 Apr 11 - 01:44 AM
J-boy 19 Apr 11 - 01:53 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Apr 11 - 02:40 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Apr 11 - 02:44 AM
GUEST,Patsy 19 Apr 11 - 05:09 AM
Penny S. 19 Apr 11 - 06:16 AM
Mrs.Duck 19 Apr 11 - 06:36 AM
Lox 19 Apr 11 - 08:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 11 - 05:42 PM
Bonzo3legs 19 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,Patsy 20 Apr 11 - 04:51 AM
Musket 20 Apr 11 - 05:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Apr 11 - 06:34 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 20 Apr 11 - 06:35 AM
Bonzo3legs 20 Apr 11 - 08:24 AM
Manitas_at_home 20 Apr 11 - 09:06 AM
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Subject: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 04:36 PM

Mudcatter MadPolly started an interesting thread about 'chavs'- a term I had never heard before; I'm not quite sure what the US equivalent would be.

The thread has engendered some heated posts but it is fairly venom-free. However, it got me thinking about growing up poor. In my case, I think our family qualified as poor (certainly during and for some time after the Great Depression) but I don't recall my parents ever mentioning money, as such. We were taught to be frugal and to pay cash, rather than on credit and never to be wasteful, but I think I just accepted it as something that grownups do.

I know that from time to time the subject of how we all were reared has come up but here I'd like to address our perceptions.

Here is a song that Juneau's Buddy Tabor wrote about growing up poor. I would guess that his perceptions as a kid is quite common, although I think it comes through that as he grew older he resented the bitter inequities of life for those he loved.

(I posted this in the BS section since it is not about music.)

Father's Grave
                         Buddy Tabor, Juneau, Alaska

My father was born in the hills of West Virginia
Rode the coal cars through the train yards, Went to work at seventeen
He married Mama late in life, they gave birth to five children
You know hard times was all they ever seen
That old car he drove made him ashamed but to us it was a limousine
Took the kids out a-riding right after Sunday School
Buy a watermelon and stop somewhere and eat it in those picnic chairs
Spit the seeds out at each other, spit the seeds up in the air

We did not know that we was poor, to us kids it did not matter
But to him it broke his heart, cracked in pieces as it shattered
Catch the lightning bugs in mason jars as it got dark in our back yard
In the house that we grew up in that our father never owned

Late at night when the wind would blow and rattle on the window
In this rundown house he paid the rent for 40 some odd years
And though he worked hard all his life and he never drank or gambled
He never owned that home that he dreamed through silver tears

We did not know that we was poor, to us kids it did not matter
But to him it broke his heart, cracked in pieces as it shattered
Catch the lightning bugs in mason jars as it got dark in our back yard
In the house that we grew up in that our father never owned

When the old man died he didn't have a nickel to his name
All the kids pitched in to pay for his funeral
Mama's sister donated a little plot of land
To lay his body down to rest in peaceful sleep
And it was six feet deep and four feet wide and we covered it with flowers
And thanked our father there for all he'd done
For at last he had a piece of land he could call his own
And no one to collect the rent on his bleached out tired old bones
Tired old bones, tired old bones
And at least he had a piece of land he could call his own


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:08 PM

Ebbie, put that song in a Lyr. Add. thread, and post above the belt, so it won't get lost.\It is a lot more than BS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:09 PM

That man, and that family, were not chavs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:30 PM

I suppose that the most important thing about that song ( I would like to hear it sung) is that the man from West Virginia did the best that he could for his family. There's absolutely no shame in that!

I suppose that our family was poor(ish) as well - but it never occurred to me either. My Dad cycled over the same railway bridge, to the factory where he worked, every weekday (and many weekends) for 50 years. My Mum was a housewife, mainly in the days before 'mod cons', and brought up three sons. They didn't have it easy but were careful with money - a habit which they passed on to me.

In the UK we appear to have an obsession with social class, but with the collapse of many of our manufacturing industries the class landscape has changed and is different from the landscape which existed in my parents' day. Unfortunately, I suspect that the contemporary UK political landscape is still based on the old class divides and I don't think that that does our country much good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:46 PM

My impression is that Americans tend to use the term "trailer trash" with the same kind of random contempt as the English are liable to use "chav".


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

SALT WATER FARM
Words and Music by Tom Rowe

He was well into his sixties when I first heard Grampa's dream;
A farmhouse by the sea and some roots in the land,
He never got the farm, what he got was a machine,
In a factory at the edge of town and broken, calloused hands.
It stole away his years and the music from his ears;
And left him so he couldn't even hear the factory horn.
Still he said someday he knew he'd get his way,
And end up his days on a salt water farm.

Salt water farm, salt water farm,
A little bit of heaven, just a house and a barn.
Mornins we'd go fishin', work the fields in the afternoon;
And as the evening tide rolls in there'd be songs beneath the moon
And later I would take you in my arms,
And listen to the sounds of our salt water farm.

He said he'd have a cow, some chickens and a hog;
A barn filled up with hay and a boat down in the cove.
Later in the fall he'd go hunting with the dog.
Winter nights he'd sit around and read beside the stove.
Well he was always kind of poor and he could have dreamed for more,
Than a place where he would still have to work with his hands.
But that never was his way and I can still hear him say,
"Son, a man is at his best between the sea and the land."


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:53 PM

Well, McGrath, maybe that depends on the way that such people (and "rednecks" behave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: michaelr
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 05:56 PM

So, UK catters, please explain to a murrican exactly whence "chav" derives and what it means.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:03 PM

Not if they use the term with the same scatter-gun accuracy as many English people do, Richard.
....................................

The most likely origin of "chav" is from the Romany word for boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 06:15 PM

A chav can be extremely well-off financially, I consider the Beckhams to be a bit chavvy. It's partly being vulgar and having execrable taste. Also being unrestrained and ill-mannered in public. Lacking good manners, being unnecessarily aggressive, and demonstrating a general ignorance are also factors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 07:28 PM

Thanks for the remarks on Buddy's song. He writes great songs - about a dozen CDs and three anthologies worth - and I have many favorites. 'Cowboy in a Wheelchair', a crippled boy's fantasy about a swift, coal-black stallion, is one of them.

We are grateful he is in this town; we tell him that when he dies he is going to be famous. :) I hesitate to post 'Father's Grave' in a Lyrics Added thread because it is not a song that anyone here knows. Or has asked about!

'Trailer Trash' evidently is used a good deal like 'chav.' If so, however, chav is not a term I would like to see come into use here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:09 PM

I think trailer trash is a phrase that should not be used by civilized people, and of course isn't. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 09:52 PM

You have chavs in America.

I remember one episode of Roseanne where her daughter wanted a tattoo. Her daughter said, my friend Michelle - her mother let Michelle have a tattoo.

Yes, but her mother is a slut!

You may not have the word, but you have the mindset.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Janie
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:16 PM

What Q said, Ebbie. Lovely song.

Tell more about Buddy Tabor when you post it up top also!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 10:46 PM

I prefer to say that they simply didn't have the proper raisin' up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Mick Woods
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:38 AM

This is a quite good Chav Test to see how much of a chav you really are!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:46 AM

The etymology of "chav" is debated. IMHO it probably does not derive from the Romany "chavi".

The usage also varies.

Amidst the musically minded young it denotes followers of mainstream pop music rather than any of the "alternative" (yes, I know that that has specific overtones but it is a useful catch-all) musics, who as well as dressing with execrable taste threaten and assault followers of minority musics. There it probably has less attachment to education or intelligence (or lack thereof).

In the mainstream indicators would be - label driven clothing, bling, threatening behaviour, poor vocabulary speech and manners, loitering in groups on street corners or in bus shelters, drinking strong chemical cider to nausea, casual theft and violence, distaste for effort or self improvement or education or proper speech. Think Vicky Pollard from the TV comedy "Little Britain".


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:30 AM

Eliza's definition would have an area of overlap with the sort of people found in the Bullingdon Club, apart from the accents, the money and the "class".

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Ann N
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:34 AM

As Eliza said, someone can be very well off financially and still be disgustingly 'chavvy'. It's about a person's standards of behaviour ,or lack of them, not their social class or how much they have in the bank.

My Gran used to say " It's manners that make a gentleman, not money"


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:38 AM

I believe Cheryl Cole is soon to be a visitor to your shores. Wait for Cheryl's media profile to emerge and you'll soon get the hang of the chav thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:40 AM

Well. I had a look and a good deal of it does not compute to an USian, so I filled in my own questionaire. Not sure about some of the connotations of some of the questions, of course, but I may be close enough for a cigar.

Question: What is the significance of Question #8, Majorica/Minorca?
Comment: See Question #33.

(I may post a Buddy thread later.)

1. Do you ever refer to any of your friends as "bro"?
Yes No
2. Do you have any preference over plaid or check?
Yes No
3. Does your Christmas dinner come from Bullwinkle's Pizza?
Yes No
4. Have you ever hung a pine fresh tree shaped air freshener on your rear view mirror?
Yes No
5. Is your mobile phone on a 'pay as you go' tariff?
Yes No
6. Do you know anyone that smokes Benson and Hedges Silver?
Yes No
7. Can you MC?
Yes No
8. Have you ever been to Majorca/Minorca?
Yes No
9. Have you ever worn jewelry from Fred Meyer's?
Yes No
10. Have you ever looked into The Gay Blade for a suit?
Yes No
11. Have you ever eaten a pot sticker?
Yes No
12. Do you call your Grandmother your 'Nan'?
Yes No
13. Have you ever bought fresh cut flowers from a grocery as a present?
Yes No
14. Have you ever not paid for a ticket on public transport?
Yes No
15. Have you ever knowingly bought off-brand cola?
Yes No
16. Do you think Walmart's food is too expensive?
Yes No
17. Have you ever been to Kenny's to buy booze?
Yes No
18. Have you anything in your wardrobe which is at least 50% polyester?
Yes No
19. Do you dream of souping up your car and getting a spoiler?
Yes No
20. Have you ever owned a pair of white Reebok Classic trainers?
Yes No
21. Would you eat off-brand baked beans?
Yes No
22. Do you drink Ripple?
Yes No
23. Have you ever referred to a sofa as a 'settee'?
Yes No
24. Does anyone in your family own a van?
Yes No
25. Have you ever stolen something from a shop?
Yes No
26. Have you ever smoked hash?
Yes No
27. Have you ever been in a stolen car?
Yes No
28. Have you ever taken a piss in the street?
Yes No
29. Have you ever referred to pudding as 'dessert' or 'sweet'?
Yes No
31. Have you ever removed chewing gum and saved it for later?
Yes No
32. Do you know anyone that has been on The Price is Right?
Yes No
33. Have you ever referred to a toilet as a 'loo'?
Yes No
34. Do you ever wear sports clothes while not playing sport?
Yes No
35. Do you own any gnome-like garden ornaments?
Yes No
36. Can you name any characters from South Park?
Yes No
37. Have you ever erected a flashing snowman or fairy lights outside your house at Christmas?
Yes No
38. Have you ever bought your lunch from Foodland?
Yes No
39. Do you have more than three buttons on any of your suits?

Yes No
40. Have you ever eaten crab sticks?
Yes No
41. Have you ever cut out and used money off coupons from magazines?
Yes No
42. Do the majority of your meals come from the freezer?
Yes No
43. Are the toes on your shoes square?
Yes No
44. Do you know any straight men who wear earings?
Yes No
45. Has your mobile phone ring-tone ever been a Top 40 hit?
Yes No
46. Were you ever excluded/expelled from school?
Yes No


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:58 AM

Majorca - a popular vacation resort for 14-30 year olds to drink until they are sick and beyond, and go to dicos where they release foam and dance to Iberian disco classics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:00 AM

In Ireland : skanger


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:01 AM

The term chav certainly seems to be scattered like cowshit on a field...

When I worked down the pit, I bought a new house on an estate that was mainly reps, managers and others with company cars. My battered old Marina didn't quite cut the mustard. We all have aspirations and one way for me to tell myself I had done what I set out to do was to own a new Jaguar car.

May sound a little self centred, and it doesn't quite have the same panache as setting out to achieve world peace or Sheffield Wednesday to go all the way to the Champions League Final, but it was part of my "get off your arse and get there" strategy.

I love my car. If this is materialism, then it ain't such a bad thing. Mind you, small minds think alike. A friend who is also a folk singing ex miner bought one at the same time. Didn't know till he turned up to give me a lift to the match in it. Jaguar sold 200,000 cars that year. That's a lot of ex pit moggies with one finger in their ear.

Anyway, I turned up at a party in mine. Another mate took one look and said "It's a bit chavvish isn't it?"

Best not mention the Oakley sunglasses then.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:07 AM

Ebbie - I don't think you've got the food from M&S / Walmart comparison quite right.

We have Walmart over here ('cept it's called Asda) and it's nearly the opposite end of the supermarket price range from M&S. I can afford one, cos I have to, but not the other.
I don't know your more upmarket supermarkets, so can't help with the translation.

Others in UK may disagree, but in ascending order of likely prices the UK scene goes:
Netto / Lidl / Iceland
Asda
Morrisons
Tesco
Sainsburys
M&S
Waitrose
and after that you're on to London places like Fortnum & Mason or Jacksons of Piccadilly I suppose.

And for the really mean/poor amongst us, we have Costco, too - I just wish they'd sell American apple cider (=fruit juice in UK speak) in USA quantity. They're really good for bulk buy of stuff you'd pay more for elsewhere.

Paws (not a chav IMO, but with no money to spare)


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:28 AM

Waitrose is cheaper than M&S, depending on what you are buying - it price matches with Tesco, which has been price matching with Asda. there was a survey done a couple of years back which showed that on a standard shopping basket it was not extreme. Though it does have some very expensive stuff as well, in terms of ready meals and so on.

I had a post here, but somehow lost it. I came out as 20% chav, but on some very peculiar questions. i get most of my food out of my freezer, but it's food I made before it got in there, not ready meals from Iceland.

Some of the vocabulary is due to perfectly OK dialect variation, which some people have decided is not OK, and which have applied for some time and much more widely than chavdom. The people who find calling your grandmother Nan wrong came, originally, from the class where the word was seen as deriving from the nanny, a paid employee, rather than the affectionate Welsh name.

I don't know why the term settee is seen as derogatory. It is part of a group of words such as lounge/parlour/living room, toilet/lavatory (loo was introduced to remove this problem, but has obviously fallen foul of the class police), table napkin/serviette, and activities such as adding the milk to the cup before/after the tea, or using fish eaters. These are used by the upper class to distinguish them from everyone else, including the middle, and show up in Mitford's U, non-U book. Frankly, I find the sort of people who use such trivial distinctions to judge people as acceptable or not ultra non-U.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:29 AM

And you forgot Aldi alongside Lidl.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:07 AM

Our local ASDA is rather quite cosmopolitan, though the two local ALDIs are invariably deserted, each staffed by one poor girl (I don't think it's the same one though it might be) who does the floors as well as the tills. For a treat we have BOOTHS, with branches throughout Lancashire (Clitheroe, Lytham, Blackpool, Garstang etc.) catering to a more affluent clientele with an aisle for 10 Items of Fewer (I kid ye not) which is one we invariable use if only because we only go in there for Greenhaulgh's bread, and rarely at that. We avoid LIDL altogether. Why? The chocolate's just too good to resist.

Think Vicky Pollard from the TV comedy "Little Britain".

Just goes to show a little social stereotyping goes a long way; and that when it comes to insulting people, we do so in terms of their social class, body type or ethnicity. When it comes to praise of course, we single them out as individuals. Thing is though, once we look at people in terms of their individual uniqueness (rather than the generality to which most of us aspire even at our most idiosyncratic) then there wouldn't be a single one of us who wouldn't transcend that stereotype. Of course the older we get, the more churlish & generalised the view of our fellow humans becomes, as we forget our more youthful optimism and clamour for a simpler world in which we might delight in hurling such dismissive stereotypes around, or point at TV characters for examples that might never exist in reality.

Or do they? Thing is, we come across them all the time - these proud-to-be loud-mouthed lumpen grotesques (to enter into the spirit of these threads) whose viscious & ever-warring wives will offer to fight you for a space in the car park. This happened just yesterday actually. She actually used her (occupied) pushchair as an obstacle to us getting the space whilst loudly proclaiming the legitamacy of her claim despite the fact her cowering husband was a several hundred yards away waiting for another space. An attempt at reasoning revealed a far harsher soul than even I was willing to engage with, but how easy it would have been to dismiss the poor woman in terms of her chosen (or grace-of-God given?) stereotype without at least trying to understand why she was like that anyway. You see SHE is all you need; forget the fashion, the jewellery, the talismans, the decor, the hairstyle, the folklore, the tribal adornments, the ritual signifiers etc. because this was a human individual fighting her corner - as in the car park, so in life. And as my wife pointed out, we've had worse from Folkies - much worse - and the best of it (i.e. the thousands of decent people we deal with every week be they Chavs or whatever) just passes by as a welcome breeze as life continues on its cruise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Silas
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:16 AM

Accoring to my kids, chav means 'Council House And Violent'

(


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 06:05 AM

I think the word 'chav' almost certainly does have its origins in the Romany word for boy. In my own village in Sussex, which has one or two families from Romany/traveller stock as residents, 'chavvy' (boy) is used by many people. When my son was very small, I'd often be greeted in the High Street with the friendly words, "Hallo Will - how's the chavvy?" - and not just by the Romany family members.

Now, I can't think of any other word which could form the basis of the word 'chav' - acronyms such as C H A V are often wrongly attributed as origins, when they're really dubious backformations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 06:11 AM

Thanks, Penny - I rarely go into M&S food halls and there isn't a Waitrose within range of me. I don't think they regard the ex-mining area of Northumberland as prime retail territory.

Yes, I did forget Aldi - best thing to do with it really IMHO, although friends tell me there are sometimes bargains to be had. I found the overall quality so poor that it wasn't worth the petrol to get there for the one or two discounts I might win on.

I missed the Co-op out too. Our village shop is one of those and it has some good stuff.

I got 20% chav too - I think on the sofa / settee and pudding / dessert thing, as well as a misspent youth (well it was the 60s!) and knowing a perfectly normal male person with an earring.

Paws


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:12 AM

Many of the supermarkets at present are conning their customers even more than usual. ASDA was in the news recently for their 'Rollback' lie, on-line, where they actually raised the price of the item that was supposed to be cheap. Their thinking behind this is that most customers shopping on-line are in a hurry and wouldn't notice the cheap price was crossed out and the more expensive price was written in big numbers to attract the eye's attention.

Cool, huh?

Then there's the Eco-Friendly Co-Op of course, now promoting itself as the most saintly of supermarkets, doing all the goodlygodly deeds abroad for others....Well, they charge more than Tesco's at my local store. 75p for a can of Pedigree Chum, whilst next door in Tesco's it's 52/55p. They also change their prices every week, so some days that dog food will be 75p, then 66p, then back up to 75p again..same with the cat food they sell as well.

All the supermarkets price their stores according to the Postcode area, so you'll find items more expensive in one area than in another..and of course ALL the High Street Stores charge more than the bigger stores, because allegedly they have to pay more rates in the High Street, thus they pass the charge to the customer.

Oh..and by the way, in my local Marks & Spencers, a big store, I found a 6 pack of Pedigree Chum for £2.75, cheaper than anywhere else...so don't be fooled by stores regarded as 'Hey, We Love You POOR Folks!' ones, because they're all run by Corporate Bastards who know that most people can't add up any longer, can't be bothered to ask WHY one, or a thousand, items have gone up in price, or why they're so much more expensive locally.

It's all a con. YOU have to work your way through it, and complain to Les Bastards In Charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:15 AM

Waitrose are getting cheaper, but again you have to know what to look for. They're also a very good employer, so their staff are well looked after, given a decent wage, decent conditions and a bloody big bonus at the end of each year, when the profits are shared out. John Lewis wanted his shops to work that way, and they still do, to this day.

In Sidmouth once, a young lad was beaming from ear to ear whilst filling up the bread, and when I asked him why he was grinning like a Cheshire Cat, he told me they'd all just heard that everyone was getting a £1,000 bonus in time for Christmas. THAT is why their staff are so helpful, so kind, so falling over themselves to create a good shopping experience, because it's in their interests, not just those at the top.

John Lewis was a good man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM

Oh...and if you see staff who are over-worked, having to stand up all day long, then don't shop there, and tell the manager why you're changing to a different store. YOU have the power to make things better for underpaid, overworked, unhappy staff...

So use that power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Max Johnson
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:34 AM

I have no opinion regarding Chavs, other than I'd prefer that they favoured a less aggressive breed of dog.

On the subject of 'Aldi', however, I have very strong feelings.
It is the only shop where I've seen Sierra Nevada Pale Ale for sale. That in itself makes it more interesting than Fortnum & Mason, but consider this: They sell 'Quixo' chicken stock cubes, and if you are not yet delirious with joy, I assert that their frozen fish is the absolute dog's bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:11 AM

Best location for Chav spotting is departure area of Alicante Airport (Spain) for the largest collection of Chav specimens. Their hideous children are of the "I don't know what I want but I want it now" variety!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:52 AM

I don't know what I want but I want it now

This comes from Vivian Stanshall's Sir Henry at Rawlinson End - immortal words uttered by Sir Henry himself, the most un-Chav of English aristocrats, who eventually destroys the nearby housing estate of Concreton with the help of his trust diplodocus.

You can hear it at around 9.20 on the following extract:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYf7Oph353U&fmt=18

Better still, listen to it all for a real slice of Englishness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 08:54 AM

Well strap me to a tree and call me Brenda - another fan!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 09:51 AM

My nearest Aldi is near my nearest Lidl, and is a good source for gardening kit. I tend to use both for non-grocery specials, and foreign food promotions, and not so much for the chocolate now that Lidl have moved it and I don't know where it is. Lovely selection of estate varieties from Papua New Guinea, Venezuela, Madagascar, Ecuador...
My village shop is a Co-op, and much gratitude is felt to it by the locals. It was a Budgens, and they suddenly decided to move out just before Christmas, leaving the village, which is quite large, with no grocery store. The Coop moved in and turned it round within a couple of days, and has most stuff that I need at short notice. Next nearest shop is Waitrose.
There's another of those now in Dartford, replacing the Safeway, and it is doing well, though I wouldn't have thought that town was one it had as a major target. Unlike Tesco, which is doing one of its bids for the main park, and has emptied a street of shops, leaving boarded up fronts.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:03 AM

The comments concerning the Beckhams indicate how the Word Chav is all about social snobbery.

They don't have great vocabularies, and they have working class london accents, but they've been lucky enough to make a good living for themselves using the assets they do possess.

They behave, as far as we are aware, with a lot of dignity and are very focussed on their kids.

Why are they Chavs?

Because they come from a working class background and they want to own nice things.

If anyone can find another reason that doesn't fall in to those categories I would be interested to hear it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:29 AM

Lox - you should try checking where Victoria Beckham really came from and why she was called "Posh" in the Spice Girls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:41 AM

OK - I did.

"Beckham was dubbed Posh Spice, a nickname first coined by the British pop music magazine, Top of the Pops in the July 1996 issue."

Now what?

Can you explain the connection between this and her being described as a chav?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM

"There is so much bad in the best of us
And so much good in the worst of us
That it hardly behooves any of us
To talk about the rest of us!"
~Anon~


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:24 AM

I think we can all agree that the word "Chav" has a Romany ancestry. possibly!
In the 21st century it has been subsumed to apply to an underclass of society (This is UK speak) who rampage through UK towns on a Friday Saturday night, getting horrendously drunk, fighting, vomiting, and basically making life incredibly disagreeable for everyone else. Quite apart from the expense spent by the emergency services who have to deal with them. You could also include those that just breed like rabbits, to allow them to live on tax payers money. A badge of honour for some of them is to make an appearance on the Jeremy Kyle show, boasting about how much they drink, how many kids they've sired, and that they don't care anyway....
It's a shame that the word "Chav" has been chosen as a word of abuse, but that is the way of the world, sadly.
Just an observation from a Londoner who has witnessed a lot of this activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Stu
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:27 AM

"Because they come from a working class background and they want to own nice things."

Too true. But they have no taste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: pdq
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 11:43 AM

The term "redneck" refers to White men from rural America who do hard work for a living. They are construction workers, lumberjacks, farmers and the like. It can be extended to truck drivers, miners and anyone else who does physical work, even though they do not have the sunburned neck.

Rednecks were Okies and Arkies who came to California in the Dust Bowl days and built the Central Valley into the premier farming region in the world. They built the Interstate Highway System that Eisenhower got stared. They were, and still are, the nucleus of our military. They are proud, self-reliant people and patriots. Johnny Cash and Tammy Wynette picked cotton at one time. Glenn Campbell loaded 100 pound sacks of potatoes onto a flatbed truck when he was just fifteen.

They other term mentioned refers to people who are often on welfare, food stamps, and drink too much beer in their trailers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 01:10 PM

Martin / Taylor / Gibson / Fylde

The guitar of discerning folk musicians.



Applause / Ekco / Stagg

Bloody chavs, that's us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 01:22 PM

You know, it's interesting. I said years back that young people were drinking themselves senseless, spewing up their souls on the pavements of our cities, bankrupting the NHS, and abusing medical staff, as they do it, yet so many folks on here shouted me down, told me it wasn't happening, called me a Daily Mail reader, etc. etc.....but suddenly, the word 'chav' gets stuck in front and that makes it all credible, permissable to mention....?

Well, I was talking about young people from ALL backgrounds, rich and poor. This is NOT a class thing, it's a **culture** thing. You'll see as much awful behaviour from the aristocratic kids as you will on a council estate...and all the other tribes inbetween.

And it's also interesting that so many in here are happy to use the word chav in a derogatory sense, yet it's a Romany word....So tell me, how offended would some folks be if I used the term 'pikey' to describe Gypsy folk who dress in a very common manner, who act up, drink up and generally flaunt their wealth for all to see? Did any of you watch Big Fat Gypsy Wedding? If not, google it...then make the same accusations that you are making about 'chavs'.....except of course, you won't, because none of you would DARE to be unkind to the gypsy folks, whilst anyone else seems to be easy prey, right?

Instantly, I'd be called 'racist' if I called a group of young gypsy people 'chavs' ....and yet here you all are, going on about 'chavs' having large families and this and that...

Well, just the other day I was talking to a young man in my bank...nice lad he is. He works there, just been promoted too. We got talking about Torquay, and I asked him how long he'd been down here. He told me his family had moved down here when he was around 2 years old...I guess that would take us back to the 80s...first to Plymouth, then to Torquay. They were originally from Liverpool. He's one of 12 children, and he loves his brothers (7) and his sisters (4) very much. He said it's great when they all get together..and just the other day they all traipsed back up to Liverpool for his Gran and Grandad's 50th wedding anniversary. There were MASSES of them....but he loves it, as they all have such a great time when they're together and are always there for each other.

My granny was one of 11. Many were back then. Some still want big families, many, many pay for them themselves. Those who don't aren't being good when they expect others to pay, I admit...but let's get this straight, because the other day I watched a programme about the problems they're having oop north, where many immigrant families require council housing. They have big families, ever expanding ones, and the council are quite literally running out of places to put them, so they're trying to swap houses around. Those with families who've now grown up and moved on getting swapped over with those families who are just starting out.

So, does that make them 'chavs' too? And if so, are you going to call them 'paki chavs' next? Are you going to start commenting on how many children they have? I mean, come on, let's throw the insults where they should be thrown, right? You can't have one insult for one part of society, without stretching that out to another...right?   So, if you're saying that anyone who lives in a council house and has a big family, is a 'chav' that must, by definition also make them 'chavs'...Right?

No, you'd all wither up with rage before saying that, yet, by your own definitions above that's exactly what you *are* saying, or so it seems to me.

Hey, maybe you're all secret Daily Mail readers... ;0)   

Hypocrisy is a strange thing.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:14 PM

I'm not going to make any comment on 'chavs' or their equivalent. People who exhibit the tendencies which get them called 'chavs' today have been with us in one form or another since time immemorial.

I think one of the most 'knowing views of, and comments on the life and times of the type is to be found in the lyrics of Ian Dury (no chav himself, by the way, in spite of common opinion to the popular). "Billericay Dickie" and "Blockheads" are witty and actually quite affectionate takes on this aspect of society. Worth a listen...


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:15 PM

Some comedian on the telly the other night said that it's great shopping in Aldi or Lidl because you don't recognise any of the labels - so you can imagine that you're doing your shopping in a foreign country!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Smedley
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:39 PM

Chav has become such a widely-used word because it filled a gap: until it caught on, the British middle classes had no conveniently crisp word which condensed all their anxieties about the uppity poor.

As for taste and the Beckhams, they do not have 'no taste', as that isn't possible, but they don't conform to bourgeois parameters of taste.

And I think the key undercurrent of all the chat about chav is OUTRAGE: because chavs are working-class folk with no desire at all to conform to the norms of middle-class codes of behaviour/respectability - how disGRACEful of them!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Max Johnson
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM

Some comedian on the telly the other night said that it's great shopping in Aldi or Lidl because you don't recognise any of the labels - so you can imagine that you're doing your shopping in a foreign country!

I think that says more about TV comedians than it does about Aldi.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:00 PM

ALDI tomato sauce (Bramwells - 24 Tomatos in Every Bottle) (Count 'em!) is a superior product by far to more well known brands. As well as in the kitchen (where I much prefer TS to TP by the way; don't ask, it's a class thing) I keep a bottle handy by the door to scoot those religious canvassers intent on spreading their noxious evil door-to-door - symbolic of the sacrifice that was made for the good of my non-existent soul. Here in Holy Week this is especially pertinent of course. For the basic essentials (spring water, grape juice, even button mushrooms) ALDI is perfect; in a deserted ALDI store I find a peace and purity of mind easily the equal of any forest or cathedral. It's a little known fact that the majority of ALDI stores are New Builds because (and get this) they are sighted on Ley Lines and other sites of ancient sacred power. Also, the name ALDI was taken from the traditional chorus of The Gower Wassail, as sung by Phil Tanner, so lots of reasons for Tree Hugging Folkies to shop there, though The Whisky Style Drinks are best avoided by all but the truly suicidal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:16 PM

Blimey...My little comment has caused a bit of a shit storm! Wasn't my intention. But, it's a fact that an ancient Romany word has been adapted and applied to a branch of British youth, that don't work, live on benefits, have loads of children, drink amazing amounts of alcohol, and fight into the night! (Sounds like typical Daily Mail readers to me!) I wasn't saying that the bastardisation of the word "Chav" was a good/bad thing....It has just happened. I didn't make it happen. There are some wonderful Gypsy/Romany musicians from all over Europe. Long may they continue to thrive/sing/play.... The word "Chav" has been stolen from them and applied to an underclass of feckless british youth. And, that is a real shame. But, getting back the OP's point. The chavs I see are certainly not poor, looking at the amount of bling they wear, and what they can afford for drinking...and I doubt very much if most of them could read the Daily Mail!
An example. A few years ago, my band played Wimborne Festival (Lovely market town in the South of England)..We had Saturday night off, and thought that a nice Italian meal would be a good idea.....It was like a bloody war zone in town, and it was only eight thirty at night! Pissed kids throwing cans and bottles around..Fights...good grief, We gave up, and went back to our digs. I have never felt so sad as I did that day. So, Sorry. peoples, there is an underclass in the UK society, (Sadly it's got the name "Chav") but it exists whatever the name. And the UK government will never address the problem....Why should they? Chavs wouldn't know a voting form if it slapped them in the face! Most of them can't write, or indeed spell!
Rant over, I rest my case....Romanies good....Chavs bad!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:20 PM

I think it is perfectly appropriate to describe the behavior of people in strong terms, but not to link it with a living situation that many people can not help. Two examples are "trailer trash" and "ghetto" to describe people or their behavior. That is not necessary, and says a lot about the user of those words. If the behavior is bad, call them on it, but don't drag their innocent neighbors, children etc. into name-calling. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:24 PM

Well, as I said on the other thread, it is not a class. It is a state of being. A 'chav' is pretty classless and would happily throw up on anyone. Whether the term is correct or not is of absolutely no consequence. If those who are telling us it is wrong to use it please let us know what term is available to describe loud-mouthed, obnoxious, anti-social people then let us know and we will use that. Fair enough? Is Yob OK? Or, from my own locality, Scally? Please, please, please let us know.

I am more than happy to use whatever term is agreed upon to refer to anyone committing anti-social behaviour, be they black, white, purple, irish, gypsy, left wing liberal, right wing nazi or from the planet zog. If they behave in an anti-social way they should be called out by people who are not afraid to confront them regardless of their origins.

Also, I am quite amazed at how much opinions waver on these threads. On the one hand - City centres are no-go areas with packs of (Whatever they are called)roaming the streets and making everywhere unsafe. Yet on the other we are told that the the very same (whatever they are called) are just mis-understood, disenfranchised youthful victims of society. What is even stranger it is often the same people that tell us both things!

Probably sorry you asked now Ebbie and I don't blame you. There is no way to understand the workings of some folk but of one thing you can be sure - Neither you nor your family were chavs for being poor. Far from it. And thanks for the opening credits:-)

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 03:35 PM

How about calling them loud-mouthed and obnoxious if they are loud-mouthed and obnoxious. How about rounding them up (the ones vomiting on the streets and disturbing the peace) and making them clean up the streets the next day with toothbrushes. And having video cameras up here and there so they can be identified and made to do some sort of community service. And my personal opinion is that people who are obtaining public services and are able-bodied and able-minded should be performing some public works, such as working in parks, nursing homes, school cafeterias etc., having to pass screening of course. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 04:58 PM

Have you ever thought about ....Unhappy? Desperate? Hopeless?

I've been raging for years about what is happening. I've told people over and over that even teachers themselves, at a Conference a few years back stated that many of their pupils had mental problems (their expression, not mine) So many children are deeply depressed. They're stuffed on the Corporate Conveyer Belt from infancy, told what to do, how to do it, tested, watched, written about...They're told their useless, lazy, idle, ignorant. They're told they'll get nowhere in life, very early on in life, because they don't pay attention, won't pay attention. They don't want to listen, don't want to do homework, don't care about yet more grades in yet more tests, which are only being done to make teachers look good, schools look good and the blokes who design examinations in the first place, filthy rich.

They learn very early on to loathe adults, really loathe them...and they learn that their families don't really give a fuck about what they do, so long as it doesn't intrude into their lives, so they get their family love from gangs, tribes...and a sense of belonging is finally found at last....as is Power.


Of course, there's the other side of the coin.

If you want to produce a pissed off, dumbed down population then you ensure they're tested almost from birth, educated incessantly, have no relaxation time, no spiritual time, don't dance, or jump, or leap, or play, or know what it's like to feel REAL freedom.....Nope, you fill their heads with stuff they don't want to learn..and heypresto, guess what happens?

You get a population filled with folks who just drop out, tune out and stay out. They become the perfect consumers though, willing, nay desperate, to buy into their new tribe, to have all the must have things to make them belong....

School is excellent at producing Consumers. It's a corporate idea and it's working extraordinarily well. 'Education' is a Corporate Business, just like every other part of human nature....that's why I loathe it.

Learning is different though. That's why I love it. It's free you see, free from Control Freaks telling you what you MUST learn, and how you must learn it...It's yours, only yours, to have, to hold, to treasure your whole life long.

George Papavgeris wrote 'Anytown' many years back now, and I raved about it, got shouted down, as ever. Well, now you're ALL living in 'Anytown' and the penny has almost dropped, except you've not quite worked out yet exactly why 'Anytown' is filled with young people who've already given up hope, given up love, given up on life...but you'll get there, eventually.


From Eaton to Essex it's all the same...

Flood the mind, SWAMP the mind with Education and watch the Learning Lights go off, ping, pong, ping, until there is total darkness inside that precious baby's brain, born a free human just a few short years ago, but now slave to his Corporate Masters for the rest of his days.....


Ping....Pong....Ping!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM

And then, of course...there's sex.

Forget Love. Just fill their minds with every sort of brutal sex act you can think of, every sexually transmitted disease they might catch, every abortion they can have, every fun-filled, sex-filled week, 24/7 up against a wall with some girl or bloke whose name they can't even recall in the morning! But hey, never mind, they know all about the Morning After Pills, and The Morning After The Morning After Pills, and the alcohol to swig them down with....

If these youngsters were adults they'd be being helped, given care, given hope, given love and attention....

Yet, these CHILDREN...these poor bloody, disturbed, deeply unhappy, hopeless children are held up as a bloody laughing stock by so many!

Ho Bloody HO!!

It's disgusting. It's degrading to us as a nation and it's the most diabolical betrayal of a Nation's Children that has EVER been allowed to happen in this country!

So stick that up yer jumpers for another meaning of the word 'chav'...OK????


Yeesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lox
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:05 PM

Smedley,

A++++


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 05:51 PM

Oh shit. Both Cuddly and Wuddly in a single series of outpourings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:03 PM

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 07:32 PM

How about calling them loud-mouthed and obnoxious if they are loud-mouthed and obnoxious. How about rounding them up (the ones vomiting on the streets and disturbing the peace) and making them clean up the streets the next day with toothbrushes. And having video cameras up here and there so they can be identified and made to do some sort of community service.

Sorry, mg. We are not allowed to do that I'm afraid :-( These poor little dears would be horrified to think they had to do some sort of work and their protectors on here would be aghast that you have suggested such an evil thing. They are only obnoxious and loud-mouthed becaue they are victims of society. Now please go and wash your mouth out...


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Janie
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:14 AM

I'd be interested in getting back to your original inquiry, Ebbie.

There is actually poor, and then there is poor in the eye of the beholder(s).

Recently my son recorded an interview with my mother for his Family Tree project for American History. Talking about both her own Depression era childhood, and our family during the 1st 15 years after she and Dad married and had 3 stairstep kids, she at first said "We were poor," then quickly corrected herself. "Well, not really poor, but we struggled.   We never went hungry, had a roof over our heads and heat and clothing to keep warm. That's not really poor, and we were no worse off than a lot of people. It was often hard, but we loved each other and really, we managed to have or get what we needed."

Owning one's own home was a meaningful fulfillment of the American Dream. Where I grew up, it didn't have to be fancy or big, it just needed to be yours. It meant security and safety, and an investment for the future. Home ownership was not so much a symbol of status and upward mobility. It was a symbol of security. If you owned your home, you owned your destiny.   I remember when Mom and Dad paid off the mortgage. Dad made a big ceremony of burning it. The future was secured. We three teenage girls absolutely did not get it at the time, and Dad's disappointment at our lack of response was palpable.

Back to Mom. She was right to correct herself. Working hard and being frugal to make ends meet and to cover basic needs is not the same thing as being poor. Poor is teetering on the brink of survival. Poor is going hungry. Poor is living without heat in winter or having the water turned off for months at a time. Poor is making the choice to let your teeth rot out of your head over time so you can feed your kids over time without them having to go hungry too often.

When I interview someone to do a complete psychosocial history, one area of inquiry is the socioeconomic conditions in which the person was raised. In rural, agricultural North Carolina, there is a span of about 2 generations among those who grew up during the period post WWI, through the mid 1950's, who, provided they grew up on family-owned farms, invariably reflect a few minutes, then say something very much like what you posted Ebbie. "We didn't have money, but we didn't want for anything we really needed. We farmed. Everybody else was in the same boat."

Actually, everyone else was not in the same boat. Those I interview, White or Black, who grew up the children of share-croppers, grew up poor by any definition. They often did not have what they really needed, and the means to obtain what they really needed was not sufficiently theirs to command.

There are those who perceive themselves as poor who are not, though it is important to acknowledge their perceptions as valid through whatever lens they peer.    There are also plenty of people and families who are objectively poor by any criteria in wealthy North America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Janie
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 12:24 AM

Just re-read my post. How very arrogant. should have begun the whole thing with the disclaimer that it is only my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:30 AM

Ah, but Janie, I agree with every word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: J-boy
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:39 AM

I grew up in a solid middle class family. I am now one of the poor. Did some of my decisions lead to me this? Yes, undoubtably. But most of the forces that hold me in their power and keep me "in my place" are completely beyond my influence or control.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:44 AM

Ah, but are you loud mouthed obnoxious tasteless and violent?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: J-boy
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 01:53 AM

I was one night but I don't remember much of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 02:40 AM

For the umpteenth time, I am not excusing bad behaviour, I am merely telling you where it comes from and why. Until society changes, until education changes, it will only get worse. But I know one thing, NOT speaking to those you regard as 'chavs', not smiling first, being the one to hold out the olive branch, is the worst thing you can do, because to look at them with a sneer on your face, which reads "SCUM!" only fuels their behaviour.

Trust me, I've had some run-ins with some of these young people, tried to get them to see another way, sometimes they do...sometimes they don't. It depends on how much hurt and anger is inside them I'm afraid.

If you have never been loved, you don't know how to pass that on. If you don't know who your father is, an anger burns within. If your brothers and sisters have different fathers, the anger burns within all and so the circle binds itself tighter around each generation. Add to that all the outside pressures going on, and you create a melt down of violent youngsters who feel utterly alienated and who become the very people that you so sneer about from your lofty perches.

Some people have a poverty that goes way beyond money. It is 'easy' to be poor if you are surrounded by love, kindness, sympathy, support and friendship, no matter what the hardships, because your soul is rich, you feel loved, know you are loved and that you belong. But if you have none of that in the first place, just an emptiness, harshness and more harshness surrounding you, then no amount of money will ever make you rich because your soul is dirt poor and your heart rattles with rage.

We have created our own Dust Bowl I'm afraid. The Grapes have become bitter....and for many there is no Tom Joad to look for who will always be there, along with his loving family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 02:44 AM

Iceland is doing some brilliant offers on Weightwatchers frozen stuff this week. great shop!

I reckon that Kerry Katona series of adverts must have cost them millions. or perhaps too many people were going into Iceland, and they needed to slow things down a bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:09 AM

It would be unfair to label every poor person or family as a chav. There are some people who just have a chav way whether it is a union jack t-shirt and pit-bull or leggings and high heels, not altogether because that would be just weird!! When I was small I remember an 'aunt' being labelled 'common as muck' by my mother who she described as 'brassy blonde, all tight skirts and red lipstick and nails' it must have been in the early 60s but to me as a child I saw her as 'colourful' and fun to know. I am sure that she must have been what would now be regarded as chavvy. Years later working in the city in the 80s-90s the word chav wasn't yet used as such but 'Sharons and Tracies' had that kind of a reputation, I am not sure what is current at the moment but the choice of children's names can be an indication.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:16 AM

My grandmother spoke of her mother-in-law, who had run off with the son of a big-house-owning family (who later lost the big house through bad investments) but had been the daughter of an hotelier (which is what he called it, publican is more like it) as pouring tea as though she was trying to get a head on it. Nowadays she would probably call her a chav - the intent was clearly there.

Sorry I omitted the pudding/dessert thing from the list of class divisions which are much older than the current fracas. It goes with the lunch/dinner, dinner/supper thing. People who needed a lot of food midday had their dinner then, and the sweet course needed to be substantial, hence was a pudding, which named the whole course. People with nothing much to do had their dinner in the evening, and thre sweet course would be an unnecessary delicact, so dessert. It wouldn't have become a problem if the Eloi didn't persist in turning the Morlock's terminology into something to be sneered at. It's ironic that that chav test uses the terminology by which those who didn't work sneered at the workers into a sneer at the non-workers, and can't see its own irony.

I wonder what work the authors do. And if it is essential.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 06:36 AM

I scored 48% on the chav test and can't help thinking that my coming from the Chigwell end of Essex had a lot to do with the answers I gave. Grandmothers were all Nans or Nannas round there. I would like to think that that is where the resemblance to what I would call a chav ends although I do wear joggers for comfort sometimes and regularly shop in Nettos and Aldi (I married a Yorkshireman - can't turn up the chance of a bargain). Marks and Sparks food has always been expensive and Burberry check is even more so! I think it is a class thing but not related to poverty. Its about taste and attitude - not enough of one too much or the other!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lox
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 08:58 AM

"Ah, but are you loud mouthed obnoxious tasteless and violent? "

A lot of people who would be categorized as cavs are none of these things.

Why not open your mind to the possibility that your understanding of this term and how it is used are incomplete?


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:42 PM

From the thread that started it all but more suitable for this one really -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugNeWkeGYm8

Cheers

MP


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Apr 11 - 05:50 PM

If you go to the Earl of Essex Polo Day you will get a very clear picture of what a chav is!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:51 AM

The whole of the 70s generation must have been chavs then as far as style goes with big the pointed collars, polyester that was so static it made sparks, big patterned wallpapers, Hostess trollies, replica gun cigarette lighters, platform boots and flares, Jason King moustaches, Angel Delight and so on.

Being poor is different. When I was at school I had a friend who was one of 5 children. The parents had no love for the children and were brought up in neglect and poverty. The oldest brother and sister studied and studied to get out of the situation and went to University. The middle sister was also of the same mind and eventually did the same. My friend desperately crammed everything in and followed the other siblings to University as well, each of them used education to get them out of the house to get a life. Everything they achieved they did by themselves without any support from anyone else apart from being competitive with each other. The youngest was completely different however, she was the youngest unidentical twin of my friend and she couldn't have been more different in every way in attitude, manners, size and she ended up eventually in a similar kind of relationship as the parents, abusive and violent. Why would that be? She would have had the influences of the older 4 to inspire and encourage her but for some reason she was never bothered to try. I don't know the answer it has always been a mystery to me. Unless of course the answer is in the fact that she was the smallest twin may be she didn't get the oxygen at birth that the others did and perhaps that had a bearing on her ability to study or learn about life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Musket
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 05:13 AM

This link between "chav" and "poor."

I might be tempted to drag the word "prevalence" into the proceedings but the idea that winning the lottery makes you go out and buy a wisteria and plant it next to the chimney you are having installed for your aga does seem a little far fetched.

I am looking to change my car, and for various reasons a 4x4 will fit the bill. Interesting that a Land Rover Discovery is on my list yet the £15K more expensive Range Rover Sport isn't. Why? because apart from having no power / comfort / engineering advantages, it is also built, in my humble opinion, for the Chav market. Blingy? Yep. Ostentatious? yep.

So perhaps my interpretation of "chav" means somebody who tries to make a statement. A psychologist may say this means a prevalence in less well off people as they are aspiring whereas richer "chavs" want to say "I've arrived. Look at me!"

We can all be guilty of it in one way or another. It could be watches, clothes, house, pets. I certainly aspired to owning a Jaguar car, and when I got my first one, I admit I was driving around like a dog with two dicks. Yet I very much doubt I would be comfortable being referred to as a chav.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 06:34 AM

This video is brilliant...I've put the full speech in the 'Re-Thinking Education' thread, but heck, if you want to know why so many kids are turning off, running away from education, from life itself, feeling so disconnected, so angry..then listen to what Ken Robinson is saying, because he is advocating the solution to many teachers, many of those in control, right around the world...

Some are starting to listen....

Ken Livingstone on Changing Education Paradigms


We have a whole generation who are being lost...Many of those are being labelled 'chavs' and then verbally kicked by the very people who deem themselves to be so intelligent.

Again, I am not defending bad behaviour, merely pointing out where so much of it comes from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 06:35 AM

Bums! Ken ROBINSON, not Livingstone!   lol


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 08:24 AM

I was wrong, it's the Duke of Essex Polo Day held near Epping in Essex. If I had a pound for every bruvar and sistar there I could fly Club World home from Argentina!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Not 'Chavs' but Poor
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 09:06 AM

Duke? I've never heard of Essex being a Duchy but there have been one or two quite famous Earls of Essex.


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