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BS: Christian Persecution

Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM
Wesley S 15 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 15 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM
Wilfried Schaum 15 Mar 11 - 09:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM
katlaughing 15 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM
Wesley S 15 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 15 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM
Goose Gander 15 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM
Silas 15 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM
Stringsinger 15 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM
Silas 15 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,999--darned memory 15 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,999 15 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 11 - 04:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 11 - 04:38 PM
Dave MacKenzie 15 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 11 - 06:16 PM
Greg F. 15 Mar 11 - 06:40 PM
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Subject: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:55 AM

report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people.

The church highlighted the assassination of Pakistani Minority Affairs Minister Shahbaz Bhatti at the start of March.

Mr Bhatti was the only Christian member of the cabinet in Pakistan.

Cardinal O'Brien said: "I urge William Hague to obtain guarantees from foreign governments before they are given aid.

"To increase aid to the Pakistan government when religious freedom is not upheld and those who speak up for religious freedom are gunned down is tantamount to an anti-Christian foreign policy.

"Pressure should now be put on the government of Pakistan - and the governments of the Arab world as well - to ensure that religious freedom is upheld, the provision of aid must require a commitment to human rights."

He said the report's estimate of persecution against Christians was "intolerable and unacceptable".
he report also highlights the Christian population of Iraq, which it says has gone from an estimated 1.4 million to as low as 150,000 over the past 25 years.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-scotland-12738479


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM

Surely Bhatti was assassinated not because he was Xtian but because he was proposing (rightly)the reform of Pakistan's blasphemy laws and also (and also rightly) the pardon of the Xtian woman sentenced to death for blaspheming the prophet after a row in the agricultural fields with some rather fundamentalist women.

If I am right he was assassinated not for what he was but for what he said.

I would however be surprised if these Vatican figures were right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:52 AM

The blasphemy law is used to persecute Christians.
Christians do not believe Mohammed was the greatest prophet.
That is blasphemy and carries the death penalty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:56 AM

Pass the popcorn. This ought to be good for about 500 posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 07:01 AM

I see Dr. Nazir Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress said that the UK aids Pakistan under pressure of British Pakistani Muslims but not for protection of Christian, Ahmadi or Shaia communities.

British aid is not utilized on public welfare but enjoyed by armed forces of Pakistan and ISI which recruits and supports militants for terror in Afghanistan, Kashmir and India. The ISI operatives in radicalised British Pakistani Muslim for London suicide bombing.

Dr. Bhatti was commenting on the statement of Foreign Minister Mr. Burt, responding on objections raised on Britain aid to Pakistan by Cardinal O'Brien in which he expressed concern on doubling aid to Pakistan when incidents of violence are rising against religious minorities in Pakistan.

Britain should aid Civil Society organizations for social welfare uplift of Pakistani people and religious minorities instead of the government of Pakistan that armed forces may not use it to spread terror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:30 AM

Take the cross, grab your rifle and cry: "Deus lo vult!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:47 AM

A piece by Damien Thompson.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100079884/is-britains-foreign-policy-anti-christian-not-particularly-we-just-do

(Damian Thompson is a British journalist, author and blogger. He is Blogs Editor of the Telegraph Media Group, with responsibility for editing and commissioning blogs on politics, religion, finance and culture for Telegraph.co.uk. He blogs mainly about religion. He is also a regular leader writer for The Daily Telegraph and former Editor-in-Chief of the Catholic Herald. He remains a Director of the Catholic Herald and has a Ph.D in the sociology of religion. He has written two books about apocalyptic belief and one about counterknowledge, "misinformation packaged to look like fact".


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 09:50 AM

You know, I've had just about had it with the whining about persecution from so-called "Christians".

I seem to recall that Jesus explained that it was not easy being a Christian, and that none should expect it to be anything but hard work.

I also seem to recall that

".....[Jesus] opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
"

So let's hear less pissing and moaning and whining and mewling and complaining and more rejoicing and gladness. And getting on with the hard work of being a Christian.

Its right there in the "Christians"[sic] own play book. Can't argue with The Word Of God, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:08 AM

No sympathy expressed so far.
Just sneering and hate.

The Independent, 2nd Jan 2011.
some church leaders are urging their remaining flock to abandon Iraq before it is too late and they are massacred.

If al-Qa'ida has its way, this ancient culture and people will soon be no more. In recent days, grenade and bomb attacks killed two more Christians and injured 18 more in Baghdad. Motorcyclists drove down streets, targeting Christian homes. Back in October, suicide bombers attacked the Church of Our Salvation in Baghdad, killing 58, before – and this was unreported at the time – grotesquely blowing themselves up, along with a child hostage, at the altar. In a statement afterwards, al-Qa'ida said: "Christians are a legitimate target."

Tensions between Muslims and Christians are not confined to Iraq: yesterday morning, at least seven people were killed and 24 injured in an explosion at a Coptic Christian church, possibly in retaliation for the rape of a Muslim girl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:12 AM

So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:14 AM

The Guardian 24th Dec. 2010

As Christians the world over celebrate the miracle of the Jesus's birth, there are many for whom this season is a time of tension and uncertainty, while others languish in prisons around the world, from Iran to Vietnam, simply because they have chosen to follow their faith.


Around 3,000 Christians are in prison in Eritrea, held without trial in appalling conditions, and suffering threats and beatings simply on account of their faith. In Iraq, where 52 people died in Our Lady of Salvation Catholic church in Baghdad when security forces attempted to free worshippers taken hostage by militants, some Christian communities have decided against Christmas celebrations, for fear of attacks by extremist groups.


In Egypt, Christians gathering in church for Coptic Christmas Eve mass on 7 January will be acutely aware of the drive-by shooting after mass in Nag Hammadi just one year ago that claimed the lives of eight Christians and a Muslim security official, and which was the precursor to further attacks on Christian communities in the surrounding area.


Christians in prison for their faith bear the weight of fear and uncertainty without the comfort of their community around them, and in some cases in solitary confinement, like Iranian Pastor Behrouz Sadegh-Khanjani. Initially arrested in January after being summoned to Shiraz to explain church activities, Pastor Khanjani was released on bail in March but rearrested on 16 June and sent to an infamous political prison, where he has spent much of his detention in solitary confinement. He has only had access to his lawyer once between his arrest and late November, while his health has deteriorated steadily due to the harsh and unsanitary conditions in the prison, where Christian prisoners are reportedly subjected to eight hours of interrogation a day, and some are kept in cramped conditions where they are unable to sleep.

Pastor Khanjani is charged with apostasy – leaving Islam, blasphemy and contact with the enemy, and is facing a possible death sentence. Also facing a death sentence is Pastor Yousef Nadarkhani, who was charged with apostasy on 13 October after questioning the Muslim monopoly on the religious instruction of children in Iran, which contravenes the Iranian constitution, under which a parent is permitted to raise children in their own faith. The written confirmation of the court's sentence – the death penalty – was delivered on 13 November. His appeal is pending.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:15 AM

So, Keith: are you rejoicing and exceeding glad, or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:17 AM

I am loath to condone any killing esp. in the name of religion, but I do believe in karma, not only individual, but also for institutions. The following:


If al-Qa'ida has its way, this ancient culture and people will soon be no more.


is something which has been written and proven about the Christian religion for a long time. If Christians feel persecuted, perhaps they should examine the long history the "church" has of annihilating, persecuting, etc. those who do not agree with their beliefs, including the long-time mistreatment of indigenous peoples in various countries.

Recent events are truly horrible, but there are no easy solutions until the leaders of all religious beliefs give up their dogma in a preference for peace and co-existence and lead their flocks in doing the same.

And, that is all I will say on the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:22 AM

And let's not forget - or forgive - The Spanish Inquisition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:45 AM

When one group of people identify with each other, say as Christians, Muslim, stamp collectors, shanty singers, wearers of baggy y fronts whatever, they become a group.

Funny that they not only get a persecution complex, but also wish to force their way of life on others, ie persecute them.

I am raising an eyebrow to the tosh coming out of The Church of England at present that everybody has it in for them. My wife's brother is coming over next month and he has that serene smile of a nutter about him. As he works in a diocese office churning out their diatribe, I am really really looking forward to a weekend of hearing his ranting. (He refuses to believe I am not a Christian and is praying that I see the light. If I see any light it is because I have put it on a bonfire.)

He and his mates reckon that Christians are being persecuted in The UK because they aren't allowed to tell adopted kids that homosexuality is wrong. They reckon they are being persecuted because a nurse wasn't allowed to pray. That you should be able to invite people into your home under your rules Blah blah blah.

1. Teaching kids bigotry is one of the best ways of showing you are not capable or desirable for raising children, your own or others.

2. The nurse was disciplined for breaching her professional code of conduct with regard to influencing those in a vulnerable situation. Safeguarding is, thankfully, something her employer took seriously.

3. When you open a business, you have an obligation to ensure you cater for all. it is nothing to do with your home, it is a hotel and anybody should be able to use it equally without checking if you are subhuman in the eyes of the owner. The legislation on disability access is founded on the same principle.

Now... if that is persecuting Christians, then perhaps it is about time they realised their odious bigotry has no place in society? Interesting that if they took heed of other parts of their bible, they could get on without upsetting normal people, but no. They, like most other religions feel the need to force their silly rituals and interpretation of morals on others. Go away, and stay there please.

Nothing to do with the sad tragic situation in Pakistan noted above. The country is falling into a deep abyss in which religion is an excuse not a reason. I have many friends from there and my brother is presently based there with an aid organisation and I am deeply saddened by the attempts to enforce a religious interpretation onto peoples' lives. the people there don't deserve it.

Another reason to disestablish superstition here before beardie and his fruitcakes beef up their position in the Lords.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM

Couldn't help but notice yet another touch of the anti-Muslim agenda since the previous efforts have now well and truely gone crashing down in flames.
There is no religion with clean hands when it comes to the persecution, torture and killing of non-believers - Christianity least of all.
Any church in the ascendency will take advantage of its influence to marginalise and even crush opposition to that dominance, Islam, Christian, Jewish - you name them, the more powerful they are, the more oppressively they behave.
And of course, some churches don't confine their persecution to their spiritual opponents. Christianity is still rightfully smarting from the exposures of the events of the last century (at least) when Christian clergymen, at their leisure, sexually abused and raped young children in their care and under their influence. I'm still getting over the revulsion brought on over the last two nights by the television drama-documentary covering the events surrounding the rape and sexual abuse of possibly over 100 children: in the Irish Republic, in the part of Ireland which remains an echo of the British Empire, and in America: by that good Christian, Father Brendan Smythe, fully protected an assisted in his endevours by his superiors - may they all burn in their own particular hell!
No one church holds the monopoly of persecution and abuse; given enough power, they are all prone to it, and the 'nya, nya, they're more oppressive than we are' just doesn't wash any more. The further all religions and their fairy stories are kept away from having any real influence over our everyday lives other than as spiritual advisors, the safer we and our children will be, and even then, they need to be carefully monitored.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 10:47 AM

So, they have it coming?
They deserve to be persecuted, for the sins of the long dead?

I doubt such views would be expressed about any other group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:15 AM

A Christian parable (def. a simple story illustrating a religious or moral lesson).
About ten years ago a family of itinerant workers were working their way around farms in (I think Central America, but it's on record).
They sent the youngest child, aged about 11 to get water and she was raped by a farmer, leaving her with two sexually transmitted diseases and a pregnancy.
The doctors of the Catholic hospital where she was treated over the next few months hid her pregnancy from the parents until it was past the legal date when a termination could be carried out, and then refused to carry out the operation which, they said, was contrary to their Christian principles anyway, despite the fact that they admitted that letting the pregnancy run its full course would put the girl's life at severe risk.
The parents appealed to to the highest authority of the church to allow the termination to go ahead; the reply they received was that the girl should "Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude".
Good Christians all maybe, human beings - answers on a postcard!!
This from memory, but I have looked it up for such discussions in the past, and will happily do so again to refresh my opinion of what religion is all about.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

So you really do think they all deserve to be persecuted!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:44 AM

Jesus did, Keith, so who am I - or you- to argue with him. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, already!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Goose Gander
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:45 AM

What bile and hatred, particularly from Greg F. Please folks, try to remember that the Christians being persecuted and murdered all over the world (overwhelmingly poor, and non-white, I might add) are NOT the same Christians who abused children, went crusading, or burned heretics. Unless you believe in some twisted variety of guilt by association or collective guilt, then there is absolutely NO justification for the foul gloating of Jim Carrol and Katlaughing. You are no better than the bigots who blame Muslims (as a group) for 9-11, etc.   

Richard Bridge, thank for attempting a reasonable response to the specific issue of blasphemy laws in Pakistan. Religious persecution in Pakistan is directed not just toward Christians but also toward other minorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 11:46 AM

Who in particular - children in the priest's care, Christians at the hands of other religions, other religions at the hands of Christians?
Nobody should be persecuted and abused, religiously, politically - not even because you support the wrong football team.
The point you appear to be shuffling around is that any religion, given the opportunity, can and possibly will persecute; it appears to come with the territory. It is the poison that kills, not the name on the box.
And as for persecution and its effects being a thing of the past, the effects that Christian abuse had, and is still having on the lives of the victims was underlined starkly in last night's drama-documentary - dim and distant past my arse!
Nobody deserves to be abused, and singling out one or other abuse as being less, more, older, more up-to-date is being, well, selective, to say the least
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:11 PM

So, they have it coming?
They deserve to be persecuted, for the sins of the long dead?

I doubt such views would be expressed about any other group.


Huh? According to my Catholic school education, we all have it coming because of the sins of the long-dead, namely the sins of Adam 'n' Eve. They call it original sin, and every man-jack among us is smeared with it - until we get christened into Catholicism, of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:16 PM

"What bile and hatred, "
Not really G.G. - it is the influence weilded by those in a position to spiritually blackmail us into doing their will and to accept what they hand out which does the evil, not what any particular spirtual group calls itself.
Religion can, and often is a power for good, it can be, and often is a massive power for evil - and it is evil to suggest, as has been here, that one persecutor is any worse or better than another, or that one spiritual ifluence is any more or less dangerous than another.
It is the power to spiritually manipulate that is the cause of all religious persecution.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

A post of mine has vanished.

Keith, yours of 0652 Mudcat time may be factually accurate but is not a rebuttal of what I said about the assassination of Shahbaz Bhatti.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

I didn't want to mix this up with the Bhatti thing.

Dear Fluids, while I largely agree with your thrust about Xtians here in the UK, Nurse Petrie was NOT in breach of her professional code of conduct and did not force her own opinion on anyone about anything. She was, in due course, reinstated: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4787050/Prayer-nurse-Caroline-Petrie-returns-to-work.html


Xtians abroad seem to have a tougher time of it, but the fundies in the USA and in Africa seem to go out of their way to make sure that they convey a hateful impression of Xtianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:33 PM

"report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people."

Hmmmm

Does anyone really believe this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:36 PM

What bile and hatred, particularly from Greg F.

Hey, take it up with Jesus, for chrissake! He said it, not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:38 PM

P.S. there, Goose: Why aren't you rejoicing and exceeding glad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 12:54 PM

Christian Persecution is overblown. They have done more persecuting than being persecuted. Of course there are Christians and Christians, not all cut from the same cloth.

But it's all theology which is one of the problems we have today. Theology does not define race, or people(s) particularly well. There are Jews and Jews, Islamists and Islamists, Buddhists and Buddhists, plug in your theology here _____and_______.

There are some people in this world who do good things for others regardless or maybe in spite of their religious beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Silas
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:06 PM

"report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world is directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people."

Hmmmm

Does anyone really believe this?



Or, more to the point, does anyone really give a fuck?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM

An awful lot of persecution is visited on Catholics by the Catholic church. Adhesion to the Church's illiberal doctrines on abortion and contraception have led to millions of unwanted pregnancies and increased dissemination of HIV in poverty-stricken third-world countries. Cast out the beam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 01:38 PM

Overblown? I beg to disagree! Actually, its total & unequivocal bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:03 PM

Sadly, within the history of Christianity, you may find that more Christians have been persecuted by other Christians (wearing slightly different banners, colours and different ideas on the one true faith), than by any other religion. Christians themselves have persecuted other religions too. I am not saying that in some countries many Christians are not persecuted. They are. But the words "kettle", "pot" and "black" do come to mind. What goes around comes around all too often, and not just in religion, which makes for a really sad future for humankind.

Today I attended an early St Patrick's Day celebration. It was purposely organised to be eceumenical. A Priest gave the blessing but was not speaking to any one religion in the room. He was speaking to everyone and praying with everyone. He made mention of how today was a mixture of faiths and what can be achieved when faiths work together. It was a great speech and one that was warming to hear.

I hear that and then come home to read this thread. It is my hope that the Father today was closer to being right about what we can all achieve by embracing each other more than what will happen if we do not bury of past differences. These were great words and it is with great hope I would want to believe them

I suspect Islamophobia will raise its head a lot in this thread potentially. In the end what we are fearing is each other. Our differences, when put aside, can allow that we see we have far more in common with each other than we don't. My vote would go to building on that hope rather than potentially breeding hatred of differences.

Just a few thoughts

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999--darned memory
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM

As ye sow so shall ye reap.

YES, X-ians are persecuted, as are Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, Hindis, Taoists, Republicans, Liberals, Democrats, and people who are different than those around them. No one deserves it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

I was prepared to meet apathy to the plight of these people.
I am shocked at the hostility that has been shown.
I am sure that none of you have any evidence that they have ever done any harm, so your reaction can fairly be described as bigoted (which is highly ironic in the case of one individual here).

They are an oppressed minority in their own lands.
Their oppression has driven them into deep poverty.
Their persecution encompasses imprisonment, torture and murder.

If you really have no compassion for their plight, you are lacking in humanity, (I.M.O.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:41 PM

I am having difficulty understanding what it is you want, Keith. Could you please explain?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 02:47 PM

Amen, Bruce- Its pretty well ubiquitous,none deserve it, but that doesn't seem to make much difference, does it?

As Sam Clemens styled it: the God damned human race.

And you, Keith, are sadly lacking in the ability to think critically.(I.M.O.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

I want nothing 999.
This was a news story here today because of the Archbishops statement, and it touched on foreign aid, a recent thread, so I thought it was worth a thread.
I was curious what kind of response there would be.
I never expected this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:47 PM

OK, thanks Keith.

Here is Keith's link:

A Roman Catholic cardinal has accused the UK government of operating an "anti-Christian foreign policy".
Cardinal Keith O'Brien has attacked plans to increase aid to Pakistan to more than £445m, without any commitment to religious freedom for Christians.
Speaking in Glasgow, Cardinal O'Brien called on Foreign Secretary William Hague to seek human rights guarantees.
The Foreign Office said it raised concerns and lobbied governments about persecution wherever it arose.
The cardinal's call came as a report by Vatican-approved agency Aid to the Church in Need suggested 75% of religious persecution around the world was directed against Christians, affecting 100 million people.
'Aid pressure'
The church highlighted the assassination of Pakistani minority affairs minister Shahbaz Bhatti at the start of March.
Mr Bhatti was the only Christian member of the cabinet in Pakistan.
Cardinal O'Brien said: "I urge William Hague to obtain guarantees from foreign governments before they are given aid.
"To increase aid to the Pakistan government when religious freedom is not upheld and those who speak up for religious freedom are gunned down is tantamount to an anti-Christian foreign policy.
"Pressure should now be put on the government of Pakistan - and the governments of the Arab world as well - to ensure that religious freedom is upheld, the provision of aid must require a commitment to human rights."
He said the report's estimate of persecution against Christians was "intolerable and unacceptable".
"We ask that the religious freedoms we enjoy to practise our faith, will soon be extended to every part of the world and that the tolerance we show to other faiths in our midst will be reciprocated everywhere," he added.
'International solidarity'
Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt said: "Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right and we condemn and deplore religious persecution in any form.
"The effective promotion of human rights, including freedom of religion, is at the heart of our foreign policy."
He said Britain raised concerns and lobbied governments about religious freedom and persecution wherever it occurred, including in Pakistan.
"It is vital that Pakistan guarantees the rights of all its citizens, regardless of their faith or ethnicity," he added.
"We will continue to press for religious freedoms to be upheld in Pakistan and around the world."
The report also highlighted the Christian population of Iraq, which it says has gone from an estimated 1.4 million to as low as 150,000 over the past 25 years.
Archbishop Bashar Warda of Erbil, in Iraq, said: "The Persecuted and Forgotten report and the work of Aid to Church in Need are critical to us as members of the worldwide Christian community.
"This information will significantly contribute to building international support and solidarity for Christians around the world where our human rights and our religious freedom have been stripped away."



I don't think there's anything wrong with that position. I don't see ANY need to give money to dictators, racists or bigots, regardless who they persecute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 03:58 PM

Yeah, well, my imaginary friend can beat your imaginary friend with one hand tied behind his/her back.

Time we progressed beyond this mindset of the average twelve year old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:10 PM

"I am having difficulty understanding what it is you want, Keith. Could you please explain?"
Take comfort in the fact that you are not alone; It certainly wasn't what he received on the Muslim prejdice thread.
"I am shocked at the hostility that has been shown."
No you're not Keith - you got your answer on the previous thread when you attempted to single out Pakistanis as perverts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:38 PM

A lot of the posts here look very much like bile and hatred to me. "Serve them right" is the mindset of bigots.

For most of its history Islam has been represented by relative tolerance - as reflected by the survival of sizeable Christian minorities throughout the Middle East, which have been there since long before the time of Mohammed.

Persecution is evil, and is not in fact consistent with Islam any more than it is with Christianity. I don't know any Muslims who do not see it as shameful when this kind of thing is justified in the name of their religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:44 PM

"What have the Romans ever done for us?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:45 PM

Ah, the pinnacle of Mudcat ugliness, revisited....

Persecution is persecution. Most times, the victims of that persecution are innocent, despite the fact that other members of the persecuted group may have committed acts of persecution. And so the cycle goes on - those in power rationalize violence against the meeker members of another group, as just retaliation for the acts of those in power in the other group.

Rape is being used as a weapon of war in west-central african nations, usually rape by Muslim men against Christian women. Does somebody care to use the Spanish Inquisition or the pope's opposition to abortion as justification for such an atrocity?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM

Jim, your quote ""Embrace her martyrdom with joy and gratitude"."
does not give one Google hit.
Are you sure you have it right?
You have previously tried to pass off some apocryphal nonsense as fact.
Any evidence for this story?


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:14 PM

The story Jim refers to is here. It happened in Brazil in 2008-2009. The nine-year-old girl had an abortion, and she and her family were excommunicated. A followup story shows that there were some at the highest levels of the Vatican who disagreed with the actions of the bishop in Brazil.

Last year, a Mercy Sister in Phoenix was excommunicated because she voted to allow an abortion at a Catholic hospital to save the life of the mother. Later, the bishop withdrew the hospital's status as a Catholic hospital.

Progressive Catholics and many moderates generally think both bishops are assholes, trying to win political points by grandstanding against abortion.

Some people use such events as an opportunity to condemn all Catholics, even those who work against asshole bishops.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 05:49 PM

Not condemning Catholics, Joe - its a matter of condemming assholes regardless of the specific version of "faith" or whichever imaginary friend they care to worship - -

Assholes is assholes.

Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:16 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Joe.
I recall an Irish child rape victim. The government tried to prevent her leaving the country to get an abortion.
The EU stepped in but the delay and stress must have seemed like another rape to the family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 11 - 06:40 PM

So Keith - why aren't you rejoicing & exceeding glad?


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