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BS: Muslim prejudice

Brian May 20 Jan 11 - 07:58 AM
Manitas_at_home 20 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM
Bobert 20 Jan 11 - 08:24 AM
Dave MacKenzie 20 Jan 11 - 08:32 AM
DMcG 20 Jan 11 - 08:48 AM
GUEST,Silas 20 Jan 11 - 08:49 AM
InOBU 20 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 08:53 AM
Bobert 20 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,number 6 20 Jan 11 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,kendall 20 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 11 - 01:17 PM
mauvepink 20 Jan 11 - 01:36 PM
Brian May 20 Jan 11 - 01:45 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 20 Jan 11 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM
DonMeixner 20 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM
mauvepink 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Eliza 20 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 11 - 03:59 PM
DonMeixner 20 Jan 11 - 04:09 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 11 - 04:22 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 20 Jan 11 - 04:38 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Jan 11 - 06:41 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM
Acorn4 20 Jan 11 - 07:30 PM
akenaton 20 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 20 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 03:31 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Jan 11 - 04:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 04:45 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 21 Jan 11 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 11 - 05:51 AM
akenaton 21 Jan 11 - 06:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 06:12 AM
theleveller 21 Jan 11 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 11 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 21 Jan 11 - 06:38 AM
Stu 21 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 21 Jan 11 - 07:34 AM
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Subject: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:58 AM

"Prejudice against Muslims has "passed the dinner-table test" and become socially acceptable in the UK, a senior Conservative is to say.

Baroness Warsi, co-chairman of the Tory Party, will warn against dividing Muslims into moderates and extremists."


Hmmmm . . . I wonder how that could possibly have happened. She states she is anti-bigotry - good.

But, perhaps she should look at the causes and address those too. It's back to that 'old' adage.

'Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but every terrorist seems to be a Muslim.'

I don't recall this level of 'ill-will' existing before the 9/11 et al attacks.

Perhaps she should put her own house in order . . . first. Then perhaps we could make a judgement based on a peaceful community just getting on with life the best they can.

We'll see.

OK, 'do-gooders' . . . off you go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:16 AM

What house should she be putting in order? Do you think she can just tell terrorists to stop bombing people and expect them to stop? She can, however, persuade our society to stop looking at Muslims as a homogenous group. Perhaps that is the house she should be putting in order, the one she actually lives in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:24 AM

We have a goodly amount of it here in the US, as well... It's nothin' but the same old divide-an-conquer boogie-man that Boss Hog uses to keep the masses from zeroing in on the fact that that Boss Hog has his hand sin our pockets...

Normal..

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:32 AM

A few tears ago it was all Irish are terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:48 AM

A typo, maybe, Dave, but one that is most apt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:49 AM

Was thinking exactly the same thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:51 AM

There was a great little sign down the street here in New York... remember "they hate us for our freedom?" Someone wrote, "they hate us because we do not understand why they hate us..."

sigh

Lorcan


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:53 AM

She's dead right (even though she's a bloody Tory - I can never work out why she is). If you can get enough anti-words into mainstream acceptance, you're there. Islamism. Islamo-fascism. Islamic terrorism. Islamic fundamentalism (try getting the Daily Mail et al. to say "Christian Fundamentalism" or "Catholic fundamentalism"). Or just stick "Islamic" in front of any negative word or phrase (or one you've worked on to make negative). Islamic suicide bomber. The Islamic group Hamas/Hezbollah. Easy innit. "Islamic" is not automatically a race-word, so you can get away with this. Do it enough and it sticks. Sticks and stones may break bones, but words make a nice springboard for bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:54 AM

That, unfortunately, is the truth, Lorcan...


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:06 AM

I also agree ... unfortunately that is the truth Lorcan

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 09:37 AM

They believe that the biggest terrorist is George W Bush. Imagine that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 12:44 PM

My husband is a Muslim and black. We expected to find a little bit of racism about his colour, but on the contrary everyone is friendly and helpful to him, and we haven't detected any racist reaction at all. BUT, when one mentions that he's a Muslim, one can see that people are a bit taken aback. I've had to explain to him that it might be best not to say what his religion is, as after the bombings etc. people are wary. He feels this is odd, as he cannot relate to terrorism in a religious cause, and is personally a very gentle African Muslim. In the town not long ago, an Evangelising Christian, a young lad, accosted us with "So, do you believe in Jesus Christ?" I explained that my husband spoke little English but was in fact a Muslim. I wanted to see his reaction to this, and I was not disappointed. He was quite unpleasant and gave us to understand that as a Muslim he was damned, and only Jesus could save him. He also added that 'Muslims' (not sure which ones he was referring to) were not good people and encouraged terrorism, and that God would 'sort them out soon'. Fortunately, my husband didn't get most of this tirade, but I was appalled. I wondered then, is this how British people actually view all Muslims? And is it fair that my husband should conceal his beliefs to avoid difficulties with bigotry etc.? And should I have said something, would it have done any good? I'm a practising Christian, and our marriage is built on tolerance and acceptance of each other's religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:17 PM

I deleted the post from "A Mudcat Christian" and the responses to that post. Please remember that we allow users to use one identity, and only one identity.
When people post under false identities, please don't respond to them.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:36 PM

Would this be the same Baroness Warsi that harped on about section 28 being repealed by the Labour Party and about homosexuality being promoted in schools?

Putting a house in order

She talks of Islamophobia being the last accepted form of bigotry. I disagree on all counts with that. No bigotry should ever be acceptable and I believe that the mass amount of people in the UK are not Islamophobes. Most would take a stance against any bigoted comment about Islam as they would other bigotries.

Now she may have since put some of her house in order, as she has supported civil partnerships, but bigotry and its language is bigotry no matter how you dress it up.

I believe her to be right about what she says about some of the comments used against Muslims. But I do not believe that most find it acceptable. Nonetheless, if she is calling for people to rid themselves of bigotry then it has to be all bigotries and not just one kind. Her language about the promotion of homosexuality in schools was wrong, and she has since admitted that, but bigotry and misinformation still exists.

She has achieved a great deal as a Muslim woman. She is bound to have her own personal feelings and want to have open dialogue about them but it should never be singled out as different from other bigotries.

Bigotry is bigotry. The semantics and battle cries may differ but the effects are often the same to their victims and targets. I do not disagree with a great deal she says. She is right to highlight it. But she also needs to be aware of cutting other minorities some slack too unless they are a bigoted minority and that is something we all need to stand up against. It seems that here on Mudcat most find that kind of bigotry totally unacceptable.

Most Muslims I know do not have the victim type mentality. They are just wanting to go about their every day lives and be integrated while allowed to practice their faith. It's not too much to ask for is it?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Brian May
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 01:45 PM

Guest Eliza,

You said it . . . a very gentle African Muslim. He is most welcome - in fact, any gentle race, religion, colour or creed is welcome. Hand in hand with gentleness is often respect for one's self and for others. I've no argument at all with that.

What I am appalled by, is the (let's call it well-meaning) insidious way many people are being denied the opportunity (freedom) to discuss this topic openly for fear of being labelled a racist.

I am a white male, one of our best friends is a lesbian (openly) and another a black girl - who says 'I am black', she gets mightily irritated when 'do-gooders' try and 'invent' words to describe her racial characteristics avoiding the word 'black' - what's wrong with it? Or her? Nothing. They are gentle people too - and damn good friends too.

Whether it's just the Western media, or whether it's fact, just about all the terrorist attacks in the last few years are attributed to radical Muslims - I hate them fervently - but I also hate murderers, rapists, bent politicians, priests who prey on their flocks and other perpetrators of whatever colour, creed, religion. I particularly abhor radical Christians - they are no better. The way religion (all types) is manipulated by those with a vested interest is abhorrent and more often that not flies in the face to what the religion stands for - doesn't stop it happening though.

I dislike that fact that BP have had to pay billions to the the USA when Union Carbide paid peanuts to the survivors of Bhopal, where thousands were KILLED, and only four Indians were prosecuted - where's the vicarious liability there being discharged?

The baroness appears to be addressing just part of the problem in talking about the British public's bigotry as much later in the article, almost at the end, she actually manages to say the Muslim community also have to make it clear that the radicals are not observing the tenets of that religion and are not welcome.

But their silence on these issues is deafening.

By the way, it takes a lot of courage to post, baring your soul like that. You have my respect (for what it's worth - which is quite a lot, to me).


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 02:44 PM

I believe that much more truth lies in this poem than in any holy book!

Abu Ben Adam


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM

Brian May,
I very much agree with you that many Muslims don't speak out against the terrorism perpetrated by the fundamentalists. It might be a good thing if they did, it would distance them from such attitudes and thereby reassure the non-Muslim population. And I agree with mauvepink, most Muslims (eg those at the mosque my husband attends) just want to be left in peace to follow their religion and lead their normal lives. I have found that the vast majority of British people are the same, they just want to live in peace. Brits really are a most tolerant set of folk. But our speaking out against fundamentalism DOES carry with it the risk of being labelled racist, Islamophobic etc. It's as if one is saying (to misquote Fawlty Towers) "Don't mention the 'M' word."


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:28 PM

I have tried to come up with ironic and snappy replies to a lot of these posts. The end result is I can't. I am wondering however why I shouldn't be afraid of Islam because I see a religion I don't understand who appears to be of itself racist, anti feminist, bigoted and openly violent towards people of its own faith. Then I realize the same things once applied to Christianity that apply to Islam now. And to a large sense still do.

I don't understand why Union Carbide got away with murder and BP didn't. In both cases it was murder and it isn't fair but it happens. Maybe India has a greater depth of greed and corruption at the local governmental level so Union Carbide was able to pad a few local pockets. Maybe it's because the third world doesn't view the lives of the lowest economic classes as anything but expendable and Union Carbide knows this and exploits it. Maybe BP couldn't get away with it in the Gulf of Mexico while it might have in the Gulf of Aden. But they certainly tried.

I do know that Union Carbide is an American Company but it is not America. Just like BP is or was a British Company but it is not Britain. Just like I know that Al Qaeda is an Islamic origination but it is not Islam.

I don't understand why I am hated as an American where ever I go in the world. I am not Union Carbide. I am the citizen who gives freely of what I have in aid to the fisherman who lost his livelihood to a tsunami. I am not US Steel. I am the citizen who gives freely of what I have in aid to the street vendor who lost his home in Haiti. I am not The US Military. I am the little kid who gave of what I had in aid in UNICEF boxes to a mother in a refuge camp in the Congo (1960). Americans give because we can. Not because the government tells us to.

I don't understand why if I give so openly to people in need where ever there is need I am hated where ever I go. And I don't understand why I should be. And as I read these postings in numerous threads I think maybe I have done enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM

... and don't mention P word before that (PAEDOPHILE)
nor the I word before that (IRISH)
nor the G word before that (GAY)
nor the N word before that (NIGGER)
nor the F word before that (FEMINIST)

has there been a time we never had a certain section of the population not being ostracised and treated with great discrimination and hate? All those subjects have at some time caused great injustices and wrongdoings to be imposed because of the actions of a few. All have only ever come to be better understood and, with the exception of paedophilia, tolerated and accepted by greater education and a yearning to unite people. I would argue that while paedophiles are indeed demonised and hated, the problem will not go away on it's own. Only with tolerence, discussion on an open forum, and a willingness to resolve issues, can all these things be overcome and resolved. No one said the discussions would be easy but they are needed.

Maybe the next great attack should be on the H word itself. Hate never does any good, no matter the subject

Extreme fundamentalism of any kind seems to be the common denominator here. Christians have not been innocent in being fundamentalist themselves and willing to kill in their God's name. It could be argued we all have had blood on our hands at some stage in our (countries, societies or religious) history. That does not mean Christianity is inherently bad.Speaking out against anything that is hateful or bad should never be seen as hateful, racist, anti-religious, etc.

Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God... by whoever's God. What matters is that the basic message of love, understanding and tolerence is not compromised in our quest to bring peace to this planet. Singling out one section of society will not acheive unity ever.

I'll shush

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:44 PM

DonMeixner, I feel the problem you outline is centred on generalisation, ie labelling an entire race or nation as bad, out of ignorance and bigotry. You sound like a very good and caring person. Please don't stop doing good things. We are all like this, making small individual efforts to help and do good. I felt your posting expressed so well that no-one should lump together all the inhabitants of a land or followers of a religion and 'hate' them. I most sincerely thank you for what you've done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:48 PM

mauvepink, I agree with every word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 03:59 PM

I very much agree with you that many Muslims don't speak out against the terrorism perpetrated by the fundamentalists.

Just as the majority of "christians"[sic] don't speak out against the terrorism perpetrated by the fundagelicals.

So what's new?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:09 PM

"It could be argued we all have had blood on our hands at some stage in our (countries, societies or religious) history."

Not me or anyone in my family or my immediate group of friends. I didn't sale a slave boat. I didn't lock up jews. I didn't sell small pox laden blankets to the Souix. I have committed no crimes against society and I will not accept the blame for something other white men have done for any reason. I have caused no harm in the name of God, government, or philosophy.

I am responsible only for my actions. Taking the blame for others and what they have done in the past will only cheapen the worth of all the good that you may do in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:22 PM

What terrorism are the Christians perpetrating in the name of their religion Greg?

If you are hinting at the abuses by the Catholic Church, most on this forum blamed the hierarchy for allowing the abuse to happen then covering it up......The church was culpable in the eyese of this forum.
The fact that the abuse itself was homosexual assault in most cases, was conveniently forgotten.

By contrast the recent Muslim abuse of young white girls in the North of England, was viewed here as "nothing to do with the muslim religion, but simply criminal acts on young girls....the perpetrators could have been anybody"

Typical "liberal" double standards.....the agenda uber alles.

Catholic religion....conservative....destroy!
Islam...religious minority....close ranks!

If it wasn't so pathetic, it would be funny!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:38 PM

The key to overcoming prejudice is in the education of the young! Abolish private schools, religious or not and remove all religious teaching. Educate all children together from the age of 5 upwards. They will form friendships that will last a lifetime regardless of religion or race. That is the only way to keep the older generations from poisoning young minds with the bigotry existing on all sides!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 04:49 PM

I fully agree Sandy.....but in the minds of many here you have just condemned yourself as being bigotted against minority culture.

Of course the banning of Christian teaching would be perfectly acceptable.

As WE are a "Christian" nation and deserve any bigotry which comes our way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:41 PM

Aketwat

The Catholic establishment DID cover the abuse up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 06:45 PM

But more seriously, this sort of debate reminds me of the apocryphal election speech of Barry Goldwater. Or a lawyer friend of mine who used to brag that he had been told that his idea of negotiation was to put a grenade on the table, pull the pin, and walk out.

What I would actually like to do would be to read the Koran (but it's a bit long) and compare what it says, and what Muslim scholars say it says, to the received wisdom of what Islam represents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:11 PM

Muslim abuse of young white girls in the North of England

Ah, the Daily Mail on Mudcat. Can you demonstrate that the young men in question performed their actions in the name of Allah, were pointing to Mecca chanting prayers during the rapes, or were following instructions in the Q'ran? Don't be so bloody daft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Acorn4
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:30 PM

Support Your Neighbourhood Fanatic.

We are the instruments of God, we are the holy ones,
Heading for our destiny with holy books and guns,
I am the right hand of Allah, God bless the USA,
Vengeance is mine, Lord, go on make my day!

We live life by the book, every chapter, every verse,
But just like pictures in the clouds, we turn blessings to a
curse,
Oh, let the prophet speak as the blood runs cold,
Divine wind a coming puts a chill into the soul.

Support your neighbourhood fanatic,
Let him fix you with his gaze
On the ghost train to salvation with a smile upon his face
He can't make it to the lifeboat no matter how he tries,
Let him drag us down to doomsday on his way to paradise.

With a licence to kill just like 007,
From Drumcree up to Shankhill Road we're on our way to
heaven,
Fitted out with blinkers to make us run straight and true,
It hurts a lot to laugh when you're one of the lean and hungry
crew.

Our will it is surrendered to that great ventriloquist in the sky.
We've got one eye on God and one on home made apple pie,
We feel the need to follow, it makes us feel kinda nice,
Joyriding to Valhalla on a nuclear device...

Support your neighbourhood fanatic...

Take us to your leader so we don't have to think,
Take us to the water, duck our heads and make us drink,
Give us all the answers so we don't have to cheat.
Let's all fall in line and goosestep down the street.

Support your neighbourhood fanatic,(x2)

We are the instruments of God, we are the holy ones,


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:33 PM

So. It was simply coincidence that 50 out of the 53 convicted were muslim.......you are the daftie if you believe that.

Muslims are taught by their clerics that Islam is the only true religious belief.....reports from muslim women in the media state that muslim men view white women as immoral,whores, etc.

They describe these men as "monsters"

"liberal" double standards at work again?

Richard I dont see the relevance of your post, or the typically limp joke on my posting name.....if that is your best shot, I think its time you retired to the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:48 PM

As a point of clarification I meant "to ban all religious teaching in the public schools that all children would attend." Many aspects of minority culture are rich and vibrant and should be taught from older to younger generations. However all children would grow up spending enough time together to form their own opinions of others as they matured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM

I don't think we should be banning religious teaching. There is a massive difference between religious education (imperative) and religious instruction (child abuse). Anyone not clear could look up "education" in any decent dictionary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:07 PM


Muslims are taught by their clerics that Islam is the only true religious belief.....reports from muslim women in the media state that muslim men view white women as immoral,whores, etc.

They describe these men as "monsters"

"liberal" double standards at work again?

This whole post presupposes that the men in question were behaving in a conscious manner according to some religious edict. Where is your evidence for this? In that part of the world (which just happens to be where I come from), young Asian men tend to stick together, not least because of the racist attitudes of the white communities around them (I note that you don't address that, rather like the Daily Mail doesn't address such inconveniences). This was a despicable instance of ganging-up and I'm not about to defend what happened for one second. But it did not happen in the name of any religion. We live a country containing people-traffickers, child molesters, internet groomers of young children, drug-pushers, paedophiles and pimps. Not to speak of bankers. You have chosen to single out one particular group in one particular deprived area because it happens to fit your agenda, instead of looking at social ills in the round. Shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 11 - 08:08 PM

I'll try to get my quotes right this time. Sorry.

Muslims are taught by their clerics that Islam is the only true religious belief.....reports from muslim women in the media state that muslim men view white women as immoral,whores, etc.

They describe these men as "monsters"

"liberal" double standards at work again?


This whole post presupposes that the men in question were behaving in a conscious manner according to some religious edict. Where is your evidence for this? In that part of the world (which just happens to be where I come from), young Asian men tend to stick together, not least because of the racist attitudes of the white communities around them (I note that you don't address that, rather like the Daily Mail doesn't address such inconveniences). This was a despicable instance of ganging-up and I'm not about to defend what happened for one second. But it did not happen in the name of any religion. We live a country containing people-traffickers, child molesters, internet groomers of young children, drug-pushers, paedophiles and pimps. Not to speak of bankers. You have chosen to single out one particular group in one particular deprived area because it happens to fit your agenda, instead of looking at social ills in the round. Shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:26 AM

There are issues apart from terrorism.
Christians more than any other faith group are being persecuted and killed for their religion, by muslims, in places like Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, Philipines.
There is also the treatment of individuals who choose to leave Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 03:31 AM

Some recent examples.
Date      Subject

20-01-2011 Eritrea: Scores of Christians arrested in major crackdown
18-01-2011 Somalia: Christian mother-of-four murdered by extremists
17-01-2011 Pakistan High Commissioner receives 50,000-name petition, pledges to protect Christians
14-01-2011 Nigeria: 13 killed in Christian village as religious tensions in Plateau soar
12-01-2011 Pakistan: Release to present petition as fears rise for Pakistani Christians
10-01-2011 50,000-name petition calls for protection of Pakistan Christians as blasphemy crisis escalates
06-01-2011 Iran: Christians hit by fresh wave of arrests
04-01-2011 Release condemns New Year bomb attacks on Christians in Iraq and Egypt
04-01-2011 Egypt and Iraq: Brutal bomb attacks usher in New Year
31-12-2010 New year fears for Christians in unstable North Korea - Release names 2011 persecution hotspots
30-12-2010 Nigeria - Release calls for restraint as Christmas violence death toll rises
30-12-2010 Sudan: Tensions rise in run-up to vote on independence for south
29-12-2010 Nigeria: Scores killed over Christmas in Plateau and Borno
29-12-2010 Nigeria Christmas killings - Islamists claim responsibility
24-12-2010 THANK YOU… for your support and prayers in 2010
23-12-2010 Iraq: Christmas services cancelled due to extremist threat
21-12-2010 Vietnam: Pastors arrested in crackdown on Christians
17-12-2010 Afghanistan: Jailed Christian denied access to lawyer
14-12-2010 Vietnam: Officials bulldoze Bible school and beat beleaguered pastor unconscious
10-12-2010 Iraq: Attacks on Christians continue as general violence subsides
03-12-2010 Egypt: Four Copts killed in clashes with security forces over church building
02-12-2010 Nigeria: Three Christians killed in night raid on Jos village
25-11-2010 Egypt: Christians pray for protection amid fear of extremist attacks
23-11-2010 Blasphemy woman's family in hiding ahead of possible presidential pardon
23-11-2010 Iraq: Pastor urges Christians to stand firm amid more bloodshed
17-11-2010 China: Guangdong house churches banned from meeting during games
10-11-2010 Israel: 'Arson' guts part of Jerusalem church and injures foreign visitors
09-11-2010 Eritrean Christians face Christmas clampdown
09-11-2010 First Christian woman sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan
08-11-2010 Pakistan: First woman sentenced to death for blasphemy
05-11-2010 Nigeria: Women and children killed in brutal night raid on Plateau village
04-11-2010 Iraq: More than 40 Christian hostages killed in besieged Baghdad church
29-10-2010 Bhutan: Believer jailed for three years for screening Christian films


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:27 AM

There may be three separate things to consider: -

1. What the Koran (and other accepted Islamic works) say.
2. What some apparent Muslims say and do in the name of thier religion
3. What some allegedly (or nominally) Islamic states so say and do.

The point is familiar in that right wing idealogues used to produce a catalogue of wrongs they stated were committed by communist states - but failed to see that a state might call itself communist but not truly reflect communism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 04:45 AM

1. The Koran is ambiguous. People choose how to interpret it.
2. Obviously individuals in any group behave badly.
3. Little of the persecution I referred to is state sponsored.
(but some is.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:33 AM

Well, Keith, we could list the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died as a direct result of the invasion of the Christian US and UK. Or the tens of thousands of Muslims in the Occupied Territories who have died as the direct result of the Christian US (and EU) propping up a despicable Israeli regime. But let's just stop there while we contemplate the flaw in both our arguments, shall we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:45 AM

Imagine if Muslims in Europe were being arrested for nothing more than peacefully practicing their religion. Imagine if Muslims in South America were being sentenced to death for "insulting" Jesus. Imagine if mosques were being bombed and burned by terrorists in a growing list of Christian-majority countries.

Now here's what you don't need to imagine because it is all too real: In recent months, Christian churches have been bombed in Egypt, Iraq, Nigeria, and the Philippines. In Indonesia a mob of 1,000 Muslims burned down two Christian churches because, according to one commentator, local Islamic authorities determined there were "too many faithful and too many prayers."

In Iran, scores of Christians have been arrested. In Pakistan, a Christian woman received the death penalty for the "crime" of insulting Islam; the governor of Punjab promised to pardon her — and was then assassinated for the "crime" of blasphemy.


I could provide dozens more examples of the persecution and, in many cases, "cleansing" of Christians in what we have come to call the Muslim world. If the situation were reversed, if such a war were being waged against Muslims, it would be the top story in every newspaper, the most urgent item at the U.N., the highest priority of all do gooder human-rights groups.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:50 AM

Steve, that is a flaw in a different argument.
I was discussing people being persecuted and killed for their religious beliefs, in the name of another religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:51 AM

So you think the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan and the persecution of Palestinians in Gaza and the almost inevitable conflict to come with Iran (who have never invaded other countries, by the way) is absolutely nothing to do with the fact that those are Muslim countries? Off with the blinkers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:09 AM

You think the Iraq war was fought for religious principle?
Now I KNOW you are daft.

There have been many reasons and excuses given for our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan......but I've truly never heard that one before.

Better tell Tony, he's lookin' for a new one today!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:12 AM

The war in Afghanistan is absolutely to do with Islamist Jihadists being based there.
Iraq and Gaza we could debate elsewhere perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:19 AM

My muslim friend and colleague and I were recently working for a travel client and I asked him if he'd ever been to the USA. He told me (quite seriously) that they wouldn't let him in as he comes from Dewsbury. A cousin of his was refused entry for just that reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:23 AM

MEDIA STATEMENT FROM BISHOP MICHAEL NAZIR-ALI

Statement from Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali regarding comments by Baroness Warsi about prejudice towards Muslims in the UK - 20.1.11

'Diversity cannot be mere diversity. It must be consistent with the best of British values, such as human dignity, freedom and equality, which derive from the Judaeo-Christian tradition of the Bible.

'I know from personal experience that extremism as a mind-set is spreading throughout the Muslim world. We do not want it to spread here through the teaching of hate and the radicalisation of the young.

'That is why we must distinguish between those Muslims who want to live peacefully with their non-Muslim neighbours and those who wish to introduce Shari'a into this country, restrict freedom of speech and confine women to their homes, not to speak of introducing draconian punishments such as death for blasphemy recently awarded to a poor Christian woman in Pakistan.

'If relations are to improve between Muslims and other people in the world, these are the kind of issues that must be tackled.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:38 AM

I `ad that Baroness Warsi in my cab the other day. Right funny name, that. She didn`t come from Tunbridge Wells, I`ll be bound.
I said, " Morning Duchess, you`ve put the cat among the pigeons. Some posters on that Mudcat are reporting you aint too `appy with what some people may say about muslims when they`re `aving their dinner."
She said, " That`s right, Jim. If I `ad my way anybody who said nasty things about muslims would be for the chop."
I said, "Blimey girl. That dodgy restaurant up Soho, "The Islamabad Palace". If the Old Bill `ad to deal with all them that said nasty things about the cook there, the courts would be chock-a-block!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Stu
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 06:42 AM

My post was deleted, but I was replying to the original poster.

So once again, Baroness Warsi is, or course, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 07:34 AM

This discussion will be of a purely academic nature soon! 50 years from now, the UK will be a Islamic democracy! All the numbers point that way.
It is amazing that people have fought wars to maintain their way of life, but now the UK - and all of Western Europe - will soon be run by a Muslim creed, but before that happens ...


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