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BS: The New Year begins when we say it does

Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 11:47 AM
SINSULL 01 Jan 11 - 12:10 PM
Mrrzy 01 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM
katlaughing 01 Jan 11 - 12:19 PM
Andy Jackson 01 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM
SINSULL 01 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 01:14 PM
Uncle_DaveO 01 Jan 11 - 01:26 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 01:37 PM
Steve Parkes 01 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM
Amos 01 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM
GUEST 01 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM
Ebbie 01 Jan 11 - 03:27 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 03:46 PM
gnu 01 Jan 11 - 03:50 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Jan 11 - 03:58 PM
Ebbie 01 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 05:05 PM
Amos 01 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 06:47 PM
Bill D 01 Jan 11 - 07:16 PM
framus 01 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM
framus 01 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 07:25 PM
Ed T 01 Jan 11 - 07:25 PM
Bill D 01 Jan 11 - 07:28 PM
gnu 01 Jan 11 - 07:46 PM
framus 01 Jan 11 - 07:53 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 08:03 PM
Bobert 01 Jan 11 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 01 Jan 11 - 09:05 PM
JohnInKansas 01 Jan 11 - 09:21 PM
Bobert 01 Jan 11 - 09:27 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 09:32 PM
GUEST,Chongio Chimp 01 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM
Bobert 01 Jan 11 - 10:17 PM
Amos 01 Jan 11 - 10:32 PM
JohnInKansas 01 Jan 11 - 11:37 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jan 11 - 11:46 PM
framus 02 Jan 11 - 12:51 AM
JohnInKansas 02 Jan 11 - 06:12 AM
Newport Boy 02 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM
Amos 02 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM
mousethief 02 Jan 11 - 07:24 PM
gnu 02 Jan 11 - 08:56 PM
Little Hawk 03 Jan 11 - 01:28 AM
framus 03 Jan 11 - 01:38 AM
freda underhill 03 Jan 11 - 03:36 AM
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Subject: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:47 AM

....and that's a completely arbitrarty statement on the part of our civilization. What does it have to do with natural reality? Not much! Accordingly, I've never seen any reason to take our conventions about "New Years" seriously. It's just another odd thing that people made up, as far as I'm concerned, and after they made it up they all followed it automatically to this day without thinking, which is typical of human beings, isn't it?

Gregorian Calendar

We presently use the Gregorian calendar, which was adopted by a papal bull in 1582, at which time it was accepted by a few Christian countries in western Europe. Other countries in Christendom gradually adopted it as well, but some countries such as Russia did not accept it until the early 20th century. So they had New Years on a different date and followed a different calendar. Non-Christian civilizations had a variety of other calendars and ideas about when the New Year occurs.

What we are doing when we celebrate (or don't celebrate, as in my case) "New Years" is....we are following the dictates of a Pope Gregory in the year 1582! Isn't that a bit silly? ;-) I think so.

The thing that determines our actual year is the relationship of the planet Earth to the Sun, its movements around the Sun, and Pope Gregory was, of course, aware of that when he decided to ratify the present calendar, but why make the year begin on January 1st? What does that date really have to do with the beginning of our year? I don't think it has anything to do with it.

If you are going to assign a particular day as the beginning of an Earth year, then it should be the day that ties in directly with a significant crossing in regards to the Sun.

It should, I think, be either the day following the longest night (the Solstice).....or it should be at the time of the Vernal Equinox (March 21). Those are the great crossings that should rightly coincide with the end of one solar year on Earth and the beginning of the next one.

The crossing that makes the most sense to have as the beginning of a New Year is March 21, the Vernal Equinox. That is when Spring begins, and in Nature, a new year really begins when Spring comes, and everything in Nature is in tune with that. For plants, animals, people, and every living thing, a new year really begins when winter ends and spring brings new life forth....but that is different in the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere.

So rightly speaking, lands north of the equator have their natural new year begin on March 21, the Vernal Equinox, and lands south of the equator have their natural new year begin on Sept 21, the Autumnal Equinox, because that's when their spring begins in the southern hemisphere.

If our ideas about the new year were connected to the equinoxes, it would make sense. It would even make sense of some kind if we connected new years to the Solstices. But it makes no sense at all to connect New Years to January 1st, in my opinion. It's an arbitrary covention thought up by some religious authorities over 400 years ago, and that's all it is.


I've never been able to relate to the big fuss people make at mignight on Dec 31st, I think it's downright silly, it's got nothing to do with any natural event, therefore it's meaningless, and I usually totally ignore it, just like I did last night. ;-) I stayed home, had a quiet evening, read a book for a bit, then went to bed early, and ignored the entire thing, but I did hear the faint, distant sound of firecrackers going off at midnight, so the usual people were out there doing their robotic cultural thing at midnight like they always do.

One more thought here. A day does not end at midnight. That's another nonsensical arbitary notion that someone dreamed up, and billions of people have been following it since....but in societies that were more directly in tune with Nature, as the Amerindians and many other people on the Earth once were, a day ends at sunset. And the new day begins at sunrise. And that makes sense!

If you are going to have a year end, it should end at sunset of the last day of the year. You then sleep. And the new year begins the next day at sunrise when you wake up and when the beauty of the Sun shines brightly across the land at the start of a new day and a new year. People who lived properly in harmony with Nature understood that and they honored it. The present society doesn't understand that, it has separated itself from Nature, it has lost touch with Nature under a flood of artificial devices and artificial ideas, and it now thinks that a day ends at midnight. ;-D Absurd!

As you may know, I'm a conscientious objector to the cultural status quo I live in...to this entire silly civilization I got born into...and that's my bit of unconventionality about New Years for you all to chew on this January 1st. So chew away! ;-) I'm sure you will have things to say about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:10 PM

I agree. Time is an arbitrary concept. In fact time is relative. What a concept!
Happy Jan 1, LH.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:15 PM

I celebrate New year's at the winter solstice, since that's when we pass the shortest day, so it's close to reality if you will. Of course I live in the "northern" hemisphere, if I were my sister who lives in Tasmania somehow the summer solstice doesn't have the same mental sense of renewal that knowing the days will now get longer does...


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:19 PM

But, Art Thieme says if it weren't for time we'd have to do everything at once, or something like that.**bg**

Actually, LH, that is when we Rosicrucians celebrate the new year, too. In the Spring. I still enjoy NewYear's Eve of the conventional sort,too, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:40 PM

Mostly I'm happy to wake up again every morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM

Yup
Open my eyes and be grateful I have a roof over my head, food on the table enough to share with some cats, friends to look after me when I need it, a job to support myself, music and the ears to hear it.
I am blessed.
But without time, I wouldn't be old - grey but not old. LOL
Actually I will never be old.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:14 PM

Yeah. ;-) Every morning is a whole fresh start. This morning here was wet and overcast, so it didn't make for a very lively feeling day. We're having extremely unseasonal warmth at the moment out there, and all the snow of a couple of weeks ago is rapidly melting away. It's 8 degrees above freezing outside!


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:26 PM

Little Hawk commented, inter alia:

The thing that determines our actual year is the relationship of the planet Earth to the Sun, its movements around the Sun, and Pope Gregory was, of course, aware of that when he decided to ratify the present calendar, but why make the year begin on January 1st?

Two comebacks to that:

Pope Gregory was NOT "of course" aware of that. It's quite possible (in my view, quite likely) that he believed that the sun went around the earth. After all, it hadn't been all that long since Leonardo was charged and convicted of heresy for denying that the sun went around the earth, and it wasn't until the 20th Century (!!!) that the Catholic Church admitted that the earth went around the sun.

But why did he set January 1st? Because Gregory was modifying Julius Caesar's system, what we call the Julian Calendar, which started the year on January 1st, and I suppose the Pope saw no particular reason to change the start point.

Now, why Julius Caesar used January 1st I don't know for sure, but he too was adjusting the system which existed in Rome from before his time.

But Little Hawk is correct in that there's nothing objectively "beginning-ish" about January 1st, other than "the way we've been used to thinking of it".

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:37 PM

Yes, Dave, I had a feeling someone would raise those 2 points...and I considered editing out the "of course" before I posted the original post. As you say, Pope Gregory may have still thought that the Sun rotated around the Earth. And, yes, he based the Gregorian Calendar on the Julian Calendar, and Julius Caesar no doubt based the Julian Calendar on whatever preceded it...

I think the Japanese and various people in Asia use different traditional calendars and I'm not sure how their versions work.

I think the beginning of spring is a far more logical time to begin the year...but that would require one calendar for the northern hemisphere and another one for the southern hemisphere, and that wouldn't be deemed "efficient" in our modern civilization.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:52 PM

The year used to start on 5 April once! You'll have to look up the details yourselves, because I'm not fit for much right now, and anyway I've forgotten most of it.

Have a good 'un!


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM

The important thing about a calendar, of course, is agreement. When we had a lot of closed cultures, who could only exchange information slowly, there were a variety of year structures used. The planet being as small as it is now, with instant exchanges of information and no spot more than a day or two away physically, we have to have a common framework for defining periods of time. The time for rebellious independence of thought about what "should" be the start point of a year is so long past as to be lost in mist. Suck it up, Little Hawk. Use the same date system as everyone around you.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:09 PM

To jog Steve's memory


"In England, Lady Day (March 25) was New Year's Day up to 1752 when, following the move from the Julian Calendar to the Gregorian Calendar, 1 January became the start of the year.

A vestige of this remains in the United Kingdom's tax year, which starts on 6 April, i.e. Lady Day adjusted for the lost days of the calendar change (until this change Lady Day had been used as the start of the legal year). (The liturgical and calendar years should be distinguished. It appears that in England and Wales, from at least the late 14th Century, New Year's Day was celebrated on 1 January as part of Yule.

As a year-end and quarter day that conveniently did not fall within or between the seasons for ploughing and harvesting, Lady Day was a traditional day on which year-long contracts between landowners and tenant farmers would begin and end in England and nearby lands (although there were regional variations). Farmers' time of "entry" into new farms and onto new fields was often this day As a result, farming families who were changing farms would travel from the old farm to the new one on Lady Day. After the calendar change, "Old Lady Day" (6 April), the former date of the Annunciation, largely assumed this role.
The date is significant in some of the works of Thomas Hardy, e.g., Tess of the D'Urbervilles and Far From the Madding Crowd.

The logic of using Lady Day as the start of the year is that it roughly coincides with Equinox (when the length of day and night is equal); many ancient cultures still use this time as the start of the new year, for example, the Iranian new year. In some traditions it also reckons years A.D. from the moment of the Annunciation, which is considered to take place at the moment of the conception of Jesus at the Annunciation rather than at the moment of his birth at Christmas"

- Wiki


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:03 PM

I do use the same date system for my daily business purposes, communications with people, and other practical purposes like that, Amos. I have no problem with that.

But I have no intention of "sucking it up" and imagining for one moment that January 1st is any kind of logical date for the great natural cycles of renewal that begin another year on planet Earth, and I have no desire to participate in silly modern New Year's celebrations that involve masses of foolish people congregating around clocks, yelling second-by-second countdowns together, singing "Auld Lang Syne" and blowing horns, and acting like a bunch of confused jackasses while they imitate the similarly thoughtless and pointless actions of their parents and grandparents, lo these many generations past! ;-) I don't enjoy it, I find it sad, I don't believe in it, and I am not missing a thing by refusing to participate in it. There's nothing dignified or sacred about this society's noisy New Years celebrations, they're just an excuse to party and act ridiculous and blow off some steam.

What I will do, however, is gather with people who recognize the real powers of Nature and who do a sunrise ceremony on the morning of the Spring Solstice each year, because those are people who have some real idea of what it is that they are honoring and how sacred it is...not people just caught up in "monkey-see/monkey-do" repetitious behaviour.

(my apologies to Chongo for using the above phrase...)


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:27 PM

"...a day ends at sunset. And the new day begins at sunrise." LH

What would the in-between be called and how would it be counted?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:46 PM

Well, Ebbie, if you want to speak in terms of a 24-hour day, then you would call the in-between part the night of that day, I suppose. But my point is that in a nature-based lifestyle such as is lived by animals, plants, and human beings who are still tuned in to nature, a day begins at dawn and it ends at dusk. This is true for all diurnal animals, and man is diurnal. For many nocturnal animals like owls or skunks or bats or mice, for example, a day begins at dusk and ends at dawn.

Dusk and dawn are the real crossing points in a 24-hour day, not midnight. Midnight is something that people made up arbitrarily... when they invented 24 hour timepieces, I suspect. They placed it 12 hours apart from noon, which in a way is reasonably logical, I suppose, but not really necessary. They certainly wouldn't have worried about it when they were using sundials.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:50 PM

So, I'll expect you at the staff meeting in the morning. Don't be late.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:58 PM

Big Ben, the concert from Vienna, Dickens movies upon Dickens movies heaped...it MUST be new year!


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 04:14 PM

But if we didn't count 24 hours in a day, we'd be back to saying 'I think I'm around 20 summers old. I was already in trousers when I started noticing summers though so I guess I'm older than that.'

Your (as were earlier systems) systems is imprecise to the extreme. I cannot imagine any society larger than a tribal one pariicipating in a more complex setting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 05:05 PM

I have no objection to people dividing a day into 24 hours, Ebbie. They could just as well divide a day into 18 hours if they decided to, and it would work okay too, but 24 is fine with me. Nor do I have objections to people using the Gregorian calendar.

But I think it would be nice if people were a lot more aware of the Solstices, the Equinoxes, and the great natural cycles of life, and if they instead celebrated the New Year on the basis of those cycles.

The conventional New Years' frenzy that exists in this society just leaves me cold. I can't relate to it. I think it's a tremedously silly occasion, as most people presently are practicing it. It used to be mainly just an excuse to get drunk, loud, maudlin, and disorderly...but the drunk driving laws are so severe now in North America that that has fallen off to a good extent.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 06:42 PM

The point is that for those who seek to step out from their treasure caves and go to and from upon the world, it is important to be able to mark with some precision the cycle of 354.8 days (IIRC) which measures the annual orbit. This is not because of some magic tide that monitors the affairs of man, but because without agreement as to framework, coordination--and therefore specialization--becomes impossible, and this hinders prosperity and growth. So while you enjoy all the road-building, electrical engineering, pipe-laying and fixture making that our ancestors figgered out and put into place, you might not be in a vaunted position from which to harp about the calendar they worked out to do those things by.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 06:47 PM

You are doing a marvelous job at dancing around and avoiding my actual point on this thread, Amos, and instead attacking luddite straw men of me that you have erected in your mind, and which do not represent my actual viewpoint on anything. ;-) Perhaps you need to read my posts more carefully, so as to understand what it is that I am saying here.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:16 PM

...yes, it's arbitrary....and when it was 'set', it was much easier to define the point, society not having so many systems tied to it. Now, it would be WAY too hard to change the date/time.

It is arbitrary, but so what? It provides a framework and allows us to do our silly little celebrations...if we so choose. I so chose last night, and had a fine time doing it.

We sang "Auld Lang Syne" to the original tune...all the verses... and had champagne and hugged friends and told ourselves that we had survived 'another year'.

I expect to go on doing it for awhile yet..


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: framus
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:17 PM

Nobody in this thread seems to have advanced a "new" system that ticks all the boxes for everyone, so what's wrong with sticking with the present arrangement, which seems acceptable to an AWFULLY large number of people - pedants, perhaps, excepted.
Davy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: framus
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

Actually, doesn't the thread title say it all?
Davy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:25 PM

Well, if you enjoy it, Bill, you sure have my blessings! ;-)

I have never have liked the standard New Years celebration thing for some reason. I've gone to a few New Years parties over the years...even some of people I really liked...and by about halfway through the evening thought "Why am I here?" I was at one party and I quietly left about 15 minutes before "the big moment" was to arrive, and walked out into a vacent lot where it was quiet and peaceful and I breathed the fresh air and looked up at the stars until "the big moment" had passed. That was nice. ;-) That's my way of observing such a time. Quietly.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:25 PM

What I saw last night was people (friend, neighbours and family) getting together in various small and large groups to enjoy themselves and each other, dancing, talking, eating, laughing, and giving each other big hugs and handshakes. They offered their friends and neighbours good tidings in year 2011. I see nothing wrong with that.

Yes, there was likely some booze consumed in some, or even many cases. But, I saw no drunk,drugged, loud, maudlin, or disorderly people, such as one often sees in many sports and music "get togethers".


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:28 PM

"... walked out into a vacent lot where it was quiet and peaceful and I breathed the fresh air and looked up at the stars until "the big moment" had passed. That was nice. ;-) "

that's just fine.... it is important to do what is meaningful to YOU.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: gnu
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:46 PM

Well, fact is, you can observe it whenever you want. I was just out for a couple of ks and I stopped at the dead end of my street which overlooks the ass end of strip mall so it's about the "darkest" spot for miles. Orion, my fav constellation, was in due south apogee and I said Betelgeuse three times fast. No clowns appeared.

I am in tune with the moon, the constellations, the weather, the flora, the fauna and marvel at how they all relate and interact. I have been a student and follower since my father taught me some 40 years ago. But, I do watch The Rose Bowl Parade. It comes on the TV at 2PM EST every January first. I don't have to click around to find out when it is on because I have a clock on the wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: framus
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:53 PM

A clock - what an archaic concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:03 PM

I like clocks. As long as they don't tick too loudly. ;-) We once had a cuckoo clock that would chime the hours. At first it woke me up at night, but eventually my system got used to it, and after that it was sort of a comforting presence, like a distant train going by in the darkness. It was like the medieval watchman crying out from his tower "Three bells, and all's well."


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:24 PM

I mean, lets get real here...

This is all just a bunch of sentimentalism and an opportunity to make some money...

Me??? Yeah, I like to get caught up in it to some extent... I mean, what's life if ya' gotta live it with a Chongz perspective??? Purdy borin'...

So, Happy New Year, ya'll and ain't ya happy to not not be...

...Chongz 'er some box turtle buried under the snow???

Well, I got one, am...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:05 PM

That guy Little Hawk is a strange one, Bobert. He reads all them mystical books by Chinese philosophers and Indian medicine men and Japanese martial arts guys and Sufis and all kinds of weird people like that. He studies reincarnation and out-of-body stuff. You will never catch him partyin' and cuttin' loose. Never. He don't even like fist fights, fer God's sake! The only place he fires a gun is at the firing range!!! The guy just don't know how to have fun is the way I see it. Well, not what I would call "fun" anyways...

Now, me, that's a whole different story! I am NOT boring, pal! When New Years rolls around I go out and tie one on. Paint the town red! Wake up the dead and make 'em pay attention! Break a few drinkin' records at the local bars! Bust a few heads if I run into some dumb bozos who can't handle their liquor or who don't respect chimps. Yessiree! I had one helluva good time last night and I am still payin' for it today, but the coffee and aspirins has been helpin'. My headache is almost gone now and my eyesight seems to be back to almost normal.

- Chongo

p.s. I got no idea what he is on about in this thread. Like I say, he's strange. But he is a good pal, that I can't fault him for. He ain't no specist.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:21 PM

The only practical or functional reason for having a calendar is to keep track of the holidays.

(In this "modern" business world, everything else happens pretty much the same, every day, so who cares what day it is.)

The holidays are when we all get naked and go frolic in the forests.

Without a calendar, some of us might find ourselves all alone, frolicking in solitary desolation - which ain't no fun at all.

The obsession that Little Hawk has with the calendar quite probably springs from that time when we posted the phony calendar and he showed up in the forest the day after we all had held our spiritual observences, and he's had to live with the inuendos about "solitary abuse" ever since.

There is no reason to feel sorry for him, or to give great credence to his babblings, as he has the sympathy of his Beagles (and perhaps of Chongo) who understand that solitary stuff quite well enough to offer whatever condolences and sympathy his plight deserves.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:27 PM

Well, gol danged, Chongz... Sniff... I had you all wrong on this one... Seems that Little Hawk and the box turtle would do fine on New Years Eve together an' you and me, well, we'd have some good fun no matter how many stitches were involved...

I mean, I really don't understand yer fascination with LH... He's like, ahhhhhh, boring...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:32 PM

What Beagles? You rave, sir. I have no Beagles. You should be confined to a padded cell, there to spin out your bizarre tales until exhaustion makes you amenable to counseling, and some hope of recovery. ;-)

You have no genuine spiritual observances in this society. None whatsoever. All you have is, as you said, a bunch of choreographed "holidays" which provide your marketing systems with special opportunities to turn a whopping profit and stay in the black for another fiscal year...if they can manage it in these increasingly desperate financial times we live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: GUEST,Chongio Chimp
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:40 PM

Yeah, he is kinda boring, Bobert. But he lets me stay in the guest room fer free, any time I like, and he don't give me no free advice about my lifestyle...'cept when I ask him fer some...which ain't too often. I figger if things ever go seriously wrong somehow in Chicago, I still got a port in a storm up there in Orillia...but, MAN, is it boring in that town! And people look at me weird all the time there. They ain't been exposed to much.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 10:17 PM

Maybe ya' oughtta take up, ahhhh, toilet trainin', Chongz... You know how them Chicago... I mean, shittin' in people apartments 'n houses is considered uncool unless accompanied with a toilet... But we've had this discussion before... LH let you crap all over his joint???


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 10:32 PM

An important distinction remains to be made between mindless Bacchanalians (whatever excuse they currently are using) and the substantive factors behind their notional celebratory milestones.

LH, I really did read your posts. Of course, the timing of New Years--as the timing of EVERYTHING--is an arbitrary compromise. This is understood.

Meanwhile, the business of the world goes on by reason of subscribed agreements.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:37 PM

Sorry LH, my mind was on the "throwing off the clothes and frolicking," and I momentarily lost my concentration.

(We had a very nice new years eve party in our back yard.)

My sincere apologies to the little Weezils who provide your accomodations.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:46 PM

The little Weezils have forgiven you, John. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: framus
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 12:51 AM

Almost everybody agrees that it is now the 2.1 11 - in the New Year - good luck anyway for the forthcoming 12 month to everybody on any other astral plane.
Davy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:12 AM

A minor error above (possibly just a momentary memory fart) gave the length of a year as 354.8 days. This seems to imply a failure of conscious participation in a few days each year, which may the result of some participation in rites with which I'm not familiar, but it is quite simple to "remember" that the calendar shows 365 days in most years.

Each fourth year adds a day (traditionally in February), so on average we should correct our value to 365.25 for an average year.

However, the "leap day" is omitted for years divisible by 100, requiring us to decrease our average value by 0.01, to come up with a mean solar year of 365.24 days.

It should also be noted that the "solar day" is the time that elapses between consecutive events where the sun is directly overhead at a given point on the earth, and the year is 365.24 of these "solar days."

But since the earth orbits in the same direction that it rotates, the "up" direction for the second noon event requires an absolute rotation of the earth that is slightly greater than 360 degrees, and during a complete orbit around the sun the earth actually rotates 366.24 times relative to the "fixed stars" or relative to "inertial space."

For accurate astronomical calculations of the position of distant objects it is necessary to use a "siderial day" which is defined as the time elapsed between two events in which "straight up" at some point on the earth points in the same absolute direction. Since the earth rotates 366.24 times in 365.24 24-hour days, a sidereal day can be only (365.24/366.24) x 24 hours duration, or 23.934469 hours long.

That's 86,164 seconds for a siderial day as opposed to the 86,400 seconds of a solar day.

This very important difference was ignored in the very early days of the development of inertial navigation systems, with the result that the first commercial inertial navigator, the "Tates," suffered from sufficiently poor performance that it remains imortalized in the familiar saying "He who has a Tates is lost."

John


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Newport Boy
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 12:16 PM

This very important difference was ignored in the very early days of the development of inertial navigation systems, with the result that the first commercial inertial navigator, the "Tates," suffered from sufficiently poor performance that it remains imortalized in the familiar saying "He who has a Tates is lost."

I love it, John - That's one for my GPS group.

There's room for more than one system - in Ethiopia, it's still quite common to find times listed in the old fashion, where the hours start around sunrise. So their 06:00 is our midday. The spread of computers is gradually killing the old ways.

Phil


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 12:33 PM

Apologies for the typo, John, and you have straightened my error out in your usual impeccable fashion. I should have written 366.24 according to your figures.

I heard that joke about the Tates long before GPS came onto the scene--the Tates was an innovative compass in which the needle was stationary relative to the bezel. Same punch line though.

Regards,


A


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 07:24 PM

There's nothing dignified or sacred about this society's noisy New Years celebrations, they're just an excuse to party and act ridiculous and blow off some steam.

Good Lord, people partying and enjoying themselves! You've got to find a way to put an end to it, LH! By the way, do you despise everything your fellow humans do, or just some of it?

Perhaps you need to read my posts more carefully, so as to understand what it is that I am saying here.

I'm sure we all understand what you're saying. It's just stupid.

(In this "modern" business world, everything else happens pretty much the same, every day, so who cares what day it is.)

Actually some people still get weekends off. I'm sure once the Corporatocracy really takes over and all labor laws are abolished that will no longer be the case, but for now, it is.

You have no genuine spiritual observances in this society.

Given that it's a secular, pluralistic society, why should it be otherwise? Those who wish to observe spiritual observances can do so, and those who do not, can do whatever it is they do. I fail to see any problem here.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:56 PM

It was sunny and 5C yesterday. Cloudy and still 5C here today. Supposed to get 15cm of snow tomorrow. Pffff! I LIKE this New Year. I don't care a whit about the calendar or anyone's lack thereof... by all intents and purposes and normality we are lucky that we are not up to our asses in snow and freezing same off. THAT is very spiritual to me. I am gonna mark it on my calendar... which also shows the phases of the moons, which is what the girls what I goes with follow. >;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:28 AM

Did you fall out of the wrong side of bed today, Mousethief? ;-)

Don't bother answering that. It was a rhetorical question.

I don't want OTHER people to stop their noisy partying on New Years, I'm just not interested in participating in it with them, that's all, cos I personally don't find it fun to do that. I don't see why that should be a problem for anyone. I'm not asking YOU to do anything I do or to believe anything I believe. I don't particularly care how you or someone else decides to celebrate New Years, cos that has absolutely nothing to do with me. So why would I care?

You're the one who sounds full of anger and bitterness all the time time, not me...I only hear from you when you're furious about something. I'm feeling quite pleasant and happy today, I just got back from a great night of live music which I enjoyed to the max, and I see people all over around here and elsewhere who are doing lots of things I respect, enjoy, and don't despise in the least. I respect just about everybody. I like most people I meet. Most people I meet like me. You appear to have a burr up your ass for some reason regarding me in particular, you seem determined to fight with me about this or that on one thread or another and are always flying off the handle over something I just said, but, believe me...I did not put that burr up your ass. It's your chosen burr, not mine. I don't know what it is in your life that's making you so unhappy and reactive...no idea...but try looking for something to do here besides picking fights with me over nothing and we'll probably both enjoy ourselves a bit more.

It's just silly for you to be fighting with me over stuff like this. And it has nothing to do with my original point in this thread, which was about things cultures do automatically for God knows what real reason...and why dp they do them? Do most people know why most of the things around them are done? Usually they don't. They're unconsious of it. They never even question it. I like to know why. I do question it And that's why I question our acquired cultural habits regarding the formalities of when a year begins, the origins of those ideas, and what it has or doesn't have to do with nature.

Do people think about most of the stuff they do? Or do they just imitate what they saw others do, and do what they're told to do? In most cases it is the latter. That's significant. Why do you suppose most Germans obeyed Hitler so easilyh? Did they really think about it? Or did they just basically do what they were told to do at the time? Or was it a combination of the two? That would depend on the person. I don't despise people for being thoughtless, Mousethief, it's not a valid reason to despise them, because they are basically innocent...but I do notice it when they are thoughtless...and I comment upon it. The more thoughtful and self-aware they can become, the better is their chance to become truly free and independent beings...not just programmed automatons who do what everyone else around them is doing, and don't even know why they are doing it.

As for spirituality, that can easily exist in a secular society, because spirituality is by no means confined to or exclusively tied to organized religions. In fact it is often very much suppressed by organized religions, because they don't want people to think independently! Anyone who can see beyond the tiny defensive construct of his own fearful little reactive ego and his own society's unconscious conformity patterns is already achieving something spiritual. He's starting to think and act independently. He's starting to value others, not just himself. He's starting to appreciate life itself, not just his own immediate advantage or gain within an established system of conformity. He's starting to love, not just consume...feel, not just react. Understand, not just get angry. Communicate, not just attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: framus
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 01:38 AM

Hey, it's only a date, guys. Cool out..


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Year begins when we say it does
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 03:36 AM

the ancient Romans dedicated New Year's day (1 January) to Janus, the god of gates, doors, and beginnings. The month of January was named after Janus, who had two faces, one looking forward and the other looking backward..

meanwhile, over in ancient Persia, they were celebrating New year on 21 March.

Back here in Sydney, it's a great relief that Christmas + the New Year are past. I'm enjoying the sense of peace and not doing anything in particular that comes after NY. truly a time to relax, examine, discard, and move on.


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