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BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!

Charley Noble 19 Dec 10 - 11:05 AM
Greg F. 19 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM
Stilly River Sage 19 Dec 10 - 11:15 AM
mauvepink 19 Dec 10 - 11:24 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Dec 10 - 11:27 AM
Mrrzy 19 Dec 10 - 12:25 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 10 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 19 Dec 10 - 01:33 PM
MarkS 19 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM
mauvepink 19 Dec 10 - 02:45 PM
artbrooks 19 Dec 10 - 02:53 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 10 - 02:55 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Dec 10 - 02:56 PM
katlaughing 19 Dec 10 - 03:18 PM
MarkS 19 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM
J-boy 19 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Dec 10 - 05:01 PM
Greg F. 19 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM
gnu 19 Dec 10 - 05:24 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 10 - 06:22 PM
gnu 19 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 20 Dec 10 - 07:51 AM
Greg F. 20 Dec 10 - 10:04 AM
mauvepink 20 Dec 10 - 02:18 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 01:49 PM
gnu 22 Dec 10 - 03:15 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 10 - 03:19 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 10 - 03:33 PM
Jeri 22 Dec 10 - 04:27 PM
Don Firth 22 Dec 10 - 04:35 PM
gnu 22 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM
Don Firth 22 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 10 - 05:56 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 10 - 12:54 AM
LadyJean 23 Dec 10 - 01:20 AM
akenaton 23 Dec 10 - 03:50 AM
John P 23 Dec 10 - 09:45 AM
mousethief 23 Dec 10 - 12:06 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM
Bill D 23 Dec 10 - 02:10 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 10 - 02:17 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 10 - 06:12 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 10 - 06:23 PM
Dorothy Parshall 23 Dec 10 - 06:37 PM
Jeri 23 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM
John P 23 Dec 10 - 06:50 PM
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Subject: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:05 AM

The bill finally passed the U.S. Senate, in the same form as in the House, and now awaits the President's signature.

It's been a long time passing!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM

That's nice, but getting rid of Income Tax / Inheritance Tax Breaks For Millionaires and the attendant mega-deficit was considerably more important and pressing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:15 AM

That's apples and oranges, both are critically important.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: mauvepink
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:24 AM

... as was ratifying the nuclear treaty with the Russians

This one was long overdue for service personel. What is the use of any wealth if you cannot spend it on being who you are? What's the use of living in the land of the free if you are not free? There are actually more important things than just money. Quality of life and living it for one. This is not to say the deficit is not important in solving. The two are very different subjects.

It's not about other Bills...

*raises a glass in hope*

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 11:27 AM

I am tempted to link the Monty Python Gay soliers sketch, but fear someone might not see it as a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 12:25 PM

Yay!


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:15 PM

There's only one really important issue at present, how many of us are going to survive the coming storm?

To equate that with a perceived victory in gender politics, is stupidity in the extreme.
The passing of this bill is unlikely to make any difference to any, other than a few triumphalist "liberals", while the results of the greatest robbery ever perpetrated, is sure to bring hardship and even death to many of our poorest and infirm comrades.

Please try to show a bit of perspective!


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:33 PM

This is good, cos now they got no excuse left for denyin' service to apes and monkeys on a fully equal basis. One brigade of chimps is worth five brigages of humans when it comes to close combat.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:33 PM

Why not? If a gay person wants to put on his or her countries uniform and volunteer their service, more power to them.
That being said though, I doubt it will be all that big a deal. Just do not see thousands of gays clamoring to join the military, and I suspect that this time next year it will be a non issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM

You're dead right Chongo! You Chimps is more than equal, specially in the brains dept.
At least you guys know when to get your arses out o' there! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: mauvepink
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:45 PM

The passing of this bill is unlikely to make any difference to any, other than a few triumphalist "liberals", while the results of the greatest robbery ever perpetrated, is sure to bring hardship and even death to many of our poorest and infirm comrades.

...

Please try to show a bit of perspective!


Many gay people have died, both at the hands of bigots and at their own hand, in past times. This bill is but one in a string of events that see to it that being gay is no longer seen as a crime. It is important to those it effects. Just as it is important that the right political moves are made to protect people's incomes and taxes to see to it that people no longer have to die in poverty. The two things are very different but the true perspective is one of fair treatment to all. Neither should be seen as triumphant to the other.

We are all afected by global and national economics. We all need to be able to live and not be in poverty. Anything that helps that has to be good. But there is more to life than just money, as I have already said, and to decry someone their piece of freedom in comparison to something else unrelated seems to me to be out of perspective itself.

I am singling out no-one here. Many believe what has been written to be the case but it is not comparing like with like. These threads are full of financial comments and topics: this one is about gay people finally being treated fair by their country.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:53 PM

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in implementation. For example, will those outed be allowed to reenlist? It would be consistent with past practice (albeit stupid) for them to be denied on the grounds that they were in violation of the law as it existed when they violated it! There are a number of former members of the military who were separated on DADT very shortly before qualifying for full retirement - in one case that I know of with less than a week to serve before he had his 20 years in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:55 PM

"Many gay people have died, both at the hands of bigots and at their own hand, in past times."

The figures state clearly, that the biggest cause of premature death in homosexuals is!......their own behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:56 PM

Changing laws is easy, changing attitudes isn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 03:18 PM

According to recent (last year) research, tobacco is most likely the leading cause of premature death in lesbians and gays.

BUT, this is a thread in which to raise a glass, not come in like an arsehole and smash one!

So, three cheers and it's about damn time!! May it be implemented well and promptly.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: MarkS
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM

Just remembered two other points:

In past years, when we had a draft, standing up and declaring yourself gay was a disqualifier from military service. Many men beat the draft that way. That loophole is now gone.

Also, for a serving military member today who does not want to continue serving, declaring themselves gay is a way out. No more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: J-boy
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM

I was just thinking the same thing MarkS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:01 PM

Reminds me of a certain Maxwell Q Klinger


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:12 PM

There are actually more important things than just money...

Aside from being pure sophistry, its real easy to say, providing you HAVE money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:24 PM

ake... "The figures state clearly, that the biggest cause of premature death in homosexuals is!......their own behaviour."

Prove it. Cite them. Go on. Do it. Or take your assinine claptrap and shove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:22 PM

G'night gnu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: gnu
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 06:27 PM

S'matter ake? Can't put your money where yer mouth is? G'night and good riddance.

Sorry, Joe (and clones), for being "combative" but that kind of trolling just winds me up. It might be intended to do so, but.... aaagggghhhh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:51 AM

No sophistry intended Greg, but point taken.

That said, the same could be said about freedoms and equality

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 10:04 AM

Don't get me wrong- I think its great that they've finally ditched this DA-DT nonsense.

However: its largely a pyrrhic victory- other more consequential problems impacting far greater numbers were passed over. I wish the same fervor and activism could have been brought to bear on these.

Then too, discrimination still exists in the armed services as well as the U.S. at large, and will continue to exist. The deck chairs have been rearranged- the ship is still sinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 02:18 PM

I do hear you....

but as each seperate discrimination is despatched to the annals of time we will eventually see a lessening of all things as education hopefully takes the place of bigotry

mp


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Subject: ADD: Let's Keep It Straight (John McCutcheon)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 01:49 PM

There's a pretty good history of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in Wikipedia. At the time it was enacted in 1993, it sounded like a pretty good compromise, about as much of a concession as the Clinton Administration could eke out at the time. I was surprised that even Barry Goldwater came out against the persecution of homosexuals by our military forces. I disagreed with his political philosophy, but I had always thought he was a man of integrity - he proved it in his courageous stand on this issue.

In practice, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" didn't seem to be a change in policy at all. Somehow, military leaders continued to discharge gay members, and I can't imagine all those members were reporting themselves to be gay. The military may have found loopholes to allow them to continue their witch hunt, but I sure think they violated the spirit of the policy.

And as I said in the previous thread, it was a nasty job to have to inquire about sexual orientation if the matter came up in a security clearance investigation. I hated having to do that, so I did it as gently and discreetly as I possibly could. Still, it made for some very awkward situations.

I am so glad that this legislation has finally taken our government out of the business of tracking down gay people.

I think this calls for a song:


LET'S KEEP IT STRAIGHT
words and music by John McCutcheon

With the election of Bill Clinton I lamented the end of 12 solid years of great raw material. Little did I know how rich the motherlode of foolishness was...

I left home for boot camp the day I turned eighteen
It was ten weeks of hell, but I made a Marine
Stationed at Cherry Point when the call came to war
I was eager to go it's what I was trained for
So I shipped out to Dubai with the Hundred and First
And, though we never saw action, we knew ten times worse
In bone-chilling danger we lived every day
We found one of the guys in our unit was gay

Chorus A

Let's keep it straight when you carry a gun
It's not what you do, boys, it's just who you've done
The fate of our nation, it's power and might
Depend on who soldiers might sleep with at night

On patrol in the jungle, my buddies and I
Came upon, to our horror, the village, Mi Lai
Midst the dead and the dying we heard one old man say
"They came and they killed, but, thank God, they weren't gay!"

Chorus A

Bridge:

We work in your office, we teach in your schools
We pray in your churches, we live by the rules
We win your elections, we die in your wars
Who we choose to love is no business of yours

All alone on the street in the quickening night
Miles from home as my heart fills with fright
No place for a woman to be out this way
There's a man in the shadows, God, I hope that he's gay!

Chorus B:

Our leaders and generals all carry on,
"We need separate showers and barracks and johns"
Men frightened of men, I just laugh through my tears
To think it's what women have gone through for years

Chorus A

Tag:

I guess I misunderstood when I saw on TV,
"Join Today's Army, be all you can be"

©1993 John McCutcheon/Appalsongs (ASCAP).

Source: http://www.folkmusic.com/lyrics/lets-keep-it-straight


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:15 PM

Done deal. SIGNED! A big step forward.

Almost wish I was gay... hehehehee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:19 PM

Don't tell that to ake, gnu....


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 03:33 PM

Bit of "trolling" going on here?

Naughty Joe!! :0)

As for gnu....I always thought there was something....a bit too dedicated?... :8)


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 04:27 PM

I watched the signing, and I thought Obama's speech was great. I was in the Air Force when DADT was enacted. I thought it was stupid then, giving less than was right to protect the Way We've Always Done Things and the homophobes, but it was at least better than the previous policy. It always was "don't tell," but this policy told people they couldn't ask. There was still bullying, because people often suspected gay people were gay, and frankly, anyone a bit different was suspected. The people who WERE gay couldn't just say, "I am--so what!?" and the people who weren't couldn't be believed when they said, "No, I'm not."

There's discrimination wherever humans are. What makes things as right as they'll ever be is that most people understand it's wrong. We'll get there, and this is a big step. It will take some time for people to spread the idea around, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 04:35 PM

"As for gnu....I always thought there was something....a bit too dedicated?... :8)"

WOW! Look who's talking!!!

Looks to me like he won't come out of the closet even to himself.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: gnu
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM

I'd be fine with ake staying in a closet... without internet access.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM

There are certain subjects that are guaranteed to flush him out. Somehow I can't help but think that that is significant.

Obsessed with the subject, perhaps? One wonders why. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:56 PM

Don... my remark to gnu was a joke. A joke I would never have made had not Joe left the door slightly ajar.

You on the other hand have already been warned by admin for your snide references to my sexuality.
That is no sort of argument at all, and is beneath contempt.
I do not intend to repeat my personal circumstances on this thread, but as I have stated before, they are entirely conventional.

I repond mainly to political threads, as I have always had an interest in politics.....I find political discussions here interesting, in the contrast between UK and US ideologies.

I think my stance against the promotion of homosexuality on health grounds is important, and I will continue to defend that stance, while homosexual hiv/aids figures continue to worsen.
You many think you are helping homosexuals by maintaining their lifestyle is safe and healthy, but in my opinion you are simply making a very bad situation worse.
There must, very soon, be a public inquiry instigated into the very obvious link between male homosexual practice and hiv/aids.

Now, back to the thread, could someone please explain to me, how Mr Obama squares his stated opposition to homosexual marriage, with his stance on equality in the armed forces?


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:54 AM

I have? When was this?

By the way, if your post was supposed to be a joke, I'm afraid it fell a bit short. It sounded like the same old stuff. You rush to beat the same old hum-drum whenever the subject comes up. And it does cause people to speculate a bit about why you seem to be so obsessed.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:20 AM

I used to clean for a sweet old gentleman, a college professor and a veteran of the second world war. Among the things I dusted in his apartment was a medal.

He was gay. He didn't mention that when he went to serve his country. Was his service less because he didn't care about Betty Grable?


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:50 AM

I think the military are more concerned about discipline within the ranks,among the vast majority of soldiers who are heterosexual.

Fighting and killing are macho pursuits, and as such, soldiers in general would I suppose, require to be pretty macho in outlook.

That said, questions must be asked about the sanity of any who volunteer(hetero or homo), to fight and kill for the present system a its disgraceful foreign policy.

Why would anyone wish to invade and kill for a government which robs and punishes its own people?
To make that country a better place to live in?.....to spread "democracy"?.....I dont think so, in both of these objectives (if they ever were objectives) we have failed miserably.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: John P
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 09:45 AM

At last, something on which I agree with Akenaton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:06 PM

Are you saying gays can't be macho?

As for people not recognizing your jokes about gays, I just have two words: Poe's Law.

And, if it's beneath contempt for people to make comments about your sexuality, why isn't it beneath contempt for you to do the same to gnu?

Never answered gnu's question either, I notice. Typical. You talk a big game but when it comes to backing it up, you put your tail between your legs and piddle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

Your reading and learning problems are no concern of mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:10 PM

I wonder, ake, if every gay person on earth began taking all the recommended precautions against all known sexually transmitted disease, would that change YOUR opinion of homosexuality?

I submit that health concerns, while admirable and relevant, are a minor part of 'most' objections to homosexuality. There is always this smug, 'moral' attitude...often unspoken but implied... that it is a matter of choice and just 'not normal'.

There is a certain percentage of the population who ARE genetically inclined to be gay/lesbian, and pointing out 'health concerns' is NOT going to make them any different. We need to address their health concerns just as we would sickle-cell anemia in the African population, or susceptability to ultraviolet in folks with pale skin who may develop skin cancer. We do NOT need to use 'health concerns' as a thinly disguised excuse to discriminate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:17 PM

What Bill said!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:12 PM

Bill...are you implying that I dont believe what I write?
Do you really think that I would spend so much time and effort almost singehandedly defending a stance which I dont believe in?

Do you think that I am nuts!

I repeat, I consider my stance on this issue very important.
The figures are there for all to see, you and others like you here are decent people, I dont think for a minute that you are happy about the situation which you appear to condone, a large percentage of homosexuals becoming sick and suffering an early death because of their sexual behaviour.

I say the percentage of infections amongst male homosexuals is intolerable.....and agree with CDC that additional measures must be taken to lower the infection rate.
This will involve a degree of compulsion, which of course is against the ideology of "liberalism".....but personally I dont give a fuck about "liberalism", I think it much more important that large numbers of young men are saved from years of suffering and a premature death.

The reason CDC warns that "additional measures" will need to be taken if infection rates continue to worsen, is that the homosexual community seems to unable or unwilling to regulate itself...there has never been more information, help, and money made available, yet infection rates rise inexorably....in the US and UK the male homosexual demographic is the only one in which positive diagnosis are still rising despite all the education, and money which is being thrown at the problem. Most of the money is already targetted at homosexuals.

I deeply resent the attitude shown in your last post. Implying that I am a troll is simply beneath you and does not further your argument in the least.
I back my stance with facts, not the wishful thinking which is common to most of the "liberal" persuasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:23 PM

"There is a certain percentage of the population who ARE genetically inclined to be gay/lesbian, and pointing out 'health concerns' is NOT going to make them any different."

As far as I am aware the gay gene has not been found.
As far as I am aware, a homosexual and a heterosexual are genetically identical.
But even if there was a genetic difference, that would not explain the high levels of sexual infection among homosexuals.....these high levels are caused by behaviour not genetics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:37 PM

Ake: There are no two humans on earth who are genetically identical.

There are, in the animal world, other animals besides humans who have differing sexual interests, including hermaphrodites.

Sometimes you do write such foolishness, I wonder if you believe it yourself or are simply trying to foment ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM

Ake: same shit/different thread. It seems very obsessive. Somebody says "gay" and you get triggered again and go off.

Of course, the same people who always respond are back now to keep you going. Maybe Joe can get you a PermaThread to talk about gay people all the time, and say the same things over and over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Don't Ask/Don't Tell--Toast!
From: John P
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:50 PM

Blah, blah blah, Akenaton, you've all this before about a thousand times. Everything you've said has been cogently countered with facts, logic, and common sense. You have never responded to any of these rebuttals. Until you do, please shut the fuck up.

On the other hand, maybe you're on to something here. If you believe we should deny civil rights to people based on their behavior, I advocate denying the civil rights of people who want to deny others their civil rights. I think you, personally, should be disallowed to marry, teach in schools, adopt children, serve in the military, or receive pension benefits from the death of your spouse. And since we're widening our net to include other people who are part of your group whether or not try to deny others' civil rights (as in all the gay folks who don't engage in risky behavior), I think we should deny civil rights to everyone in Scotland, since there's at least one person in Scotland who want to deny other people their civil rights. Or maybe all socialists. Or maybe all anti-war advocates. Or maybe all men. Where do you want it to stop?
    I notice that this thread was closed without explanation, but maybe it's just as well. The discussion was going around it circles and was turning into a cycle of personal attacks. If you want to start another thread on this subject, make it civil. But I think this subject has been exhausted.
    -Joe Offer-


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 15 November 7:34 PM EST

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