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BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect

Owen Woodson 15 Dec 10 - 03:14 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 15 Dec 10 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,999 15 Dec 10 - 05:31 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Dec 10 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 15 Dec 10 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 16 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM
Owen Woodson 16 Dec 10 - 06:06 AM
Smokey. 16 Dec 10 - 01:45 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 10 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Silas 16 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 10 - 02:58 PM
Smokey. 16 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM
Brian May 16 Dec 10 - 04:15 PM
Herga Kitty 16 Dec 10 - 04:27 PM
Silas 16 Dec 10 - 04:31 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM
Silas 17 Dec 10 - 05:48 AM
akenaton 17 Dec 10 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 17 Dec 10 - 08:20 AM
Silas 17 Dec 10 - 08:26 AM
SPB-Cooperator 17 Dec 10 - 10:23 AM
Fred McCormick 17 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM
Fred McCormick 17 Dec 10 - 10:32 AM
Ringer 17 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM
Silas 17 Dec 10 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,alan whittle 17 Dec 10 - 11:26 AM
Brian May 17 Dec 10 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 17 Dec 10 - 01:05 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 17 Dec 10 - 01:14 PM
Silas 17 Dec 10 - 01:15 PM
Silas 17 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 10 - 01:57 PM
Brian May 17 Dec 10 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 10 - 02:21 PM
Brian May 17 Dec 10 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,999 17 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM
Brian May 17 Dec 10 - 05:30 PM
Smokey. 17 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM
Brian May 17 Dec 10 - 06:30 PM
Smokey. 17 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM
frogprince 17 Dec 10 - 07:58 PM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Dec 10 - 06:17 AM
Fred McCormick 18 Dec 10 - 07:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 10 - 08:35 AM
akenaton 18 Dec 10 - 09:12 AM
Silas 18 Dec 10 - 09:20 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Dec 10 - 09:42 AM
akenaton 18 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM
Smokey. 18 Dec 10 - 01:23 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 10 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 18 Dec 10 - 02:08 PM
akenaton 18 Dec 10 - 02:17 PM
Brian May 18 Dec 10 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Silas 18 Dec 10 - 04:10 PM
Smokey. 18 Dec 10 - 04:26 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Dec 10 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 18 Dec 10 - 07:09 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 10 - 07:42 PM
Smokey. 18 Dec 10 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Dec 10 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Dec 10 - 02:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 10 - 01:25 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Dec 10 - 01:32 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 10 - 01:58 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,999 19 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM
akenaton 19 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Dec 10 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Dec 10 - 04:48 PM
Brian May 19 Dec 10 - 05:05 PM
Smokey. 19 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM
Smokey. 19 Dec 10 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 19 Dec 10 - 09:22 PM
Smokey. 20 Dec 10 - 01:40 AM
Owen Woodson 20 Dec 10 - 01:33 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Dec 10 - 07:11 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 20 Dec 10 - 08:59 PM
Smokey. 20 Dec 10 - 09:05 PM
akenaton 21 Dec 10 - 06:09 AM
Silas 21 Dec 10 - 06:12 AM
akenaton 21 Dec 10 - 06:45 AM
Ringer 21 Dec 10 - 07:26 AM
Silas 21 Dec 10 - 07:36 AM
Fred McCormick 21 Dec 10 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 21 Dec 10 - 09:54 AM
GUEST,Neil D 21 Dec 10 - 10:18 AM
Silas 21 Dec 10 - 10:23 AM
Fred McCormick 21 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM
The Sandman 21 Dec 10 - 11:15 AM
Silas 21 Dec 10 - 11:17 AM
Fred McCormick 21 Dec 10 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 21 Dec 10 - 12:33 PM
Silas 21 Dec 10 - 12:52 PM
Brian May 21 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM
akenaton 21 Dec 10 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Silas 21 Dec 10 - 05:26 PM
Fred McCormick 22 Dec 10 - 05:31 AM
Silas 22 Dec 10 - 06:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM
Fred McCormick 23 Dec 10 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 24 Dec 10 - 08:33 AM
Brian May 24 Dec 10 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Alan Whittle 24 Dec 10 - 11:28 AM
Brian May 24 Dec 10 - 11:44 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM
Richard Bridge 28 Dec 10 - 08:29 AM
Fred McCormick 29 Dec 10 - 06:44 AM
Fred McCormick 02 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM
SPB-Cooperator 03 Jan 11 - 03:21 AM
Brian May 03 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jan 11 - 10:59 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM
akenaton 03 Jan 11 - 07:13 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jan 11 - 07:24 PM
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Subject: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 03:14 PM

In case anyone hasn't heard it yet, the Oldham East and Saddleworth by-election has been called for Thursday 13th January. What hasn't been so widely announced is that BNP leader, Nick Griffin will be standing.

Given the mass discontent with the Tories and Lib-Dems, plus the fact that the seat was previously held by a disgraced Labour MP, plus the fact that the Conservative candidate is what the BNP in all its racist bigotry calls an ethnic, Griffin clearly hopes to do better than he did in Barking at the general election.

He won't win, but make no mistake. A respectable turnout for the British Nazi Party would be a disaster in terms of race relations in Oldham. Also, it could mark a turning back for them at a time when their fortunes seem very much on the wane.

I am not from Oldham, and I can't advise people how to get involved. But if there is anyone out there who lives in that area, and understands the dangers of fascism, please do whatever you can to stop this from happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:30 PM

Owen, We are currently having enough problems on with Conventional political parties here without including these clowns !

I doubt the populace will even give notice to them. Yes we are living in difficult times, but people have learned the bitter lessons of history, people come forward now to counter the fear and hate with unity and hope, and to protect the democratic process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:31 PM

Well-said, Richie and Owen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 05:54 PM

Will he be complying with party funding laws, as the past history recorded by the Electoral Commission doesn't seem to indicate that he will...

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 06:15 PM

I bet the police are blessing him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:39 AM

I have a concern that by using his name and the name of his cult, (I think I spelt that right..) they have a trawl and troll policy of finding these debates and joining in.

Not wanting to stop debate, but the more we post to it, the higher the chance of them wading in.

My first and final post on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 06:06 AM

Kitty,

The day the B*N*P complies with any legal requirement will be a major breakthrough. However, there's one thing which may stop Griffin dead in his tracks. The court case relating to the B*N*P's racist constitution, and Griffin's alleged contempt of court is due to resume tomorrow.

See http://uaf.org.uk/2010/12/demonstrate-at-nazi-bnp-leader-nick-griffins-court-hearing/for more info.

There is a strong possibility that Griffin could be jailed over the constitution and/or contempt. Either way, a stretch in the slammer would do his election campaign no good at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 01:45 PM

Either way, a stretch in the slammer would do his election campaign no good at all.

I wouldn't bet on that, but otherwise the thought of him behind bars is a most delightful one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:38 PM

I am not a member of the BNP, or even a supporter, but there is much hypocrisy in the Anti Griffin campaign.

I wont forget when Mr Griffin appeared on BBC Question Time and was referred to as a Fascist sympathiser by a certain Mr Straw.

Mr Griffin retorted that his father had served in the RAF fighting Fascism in WW2, while Mr Straw's father had spent the war in jail, as a conscientious objector.

While I admire pacifist ideology, Mr Straw's comments were ill advised in the extreme.
The response is in line for "most cutting of the decade"


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM

I hardly think that dissafected LibDem voters will opt for an even more right wing party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:58 PM

Thats hardly the point Silas, Mr Griffin has every right to stand for election....even if he received only one vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM

Jack Straw did rather walk into that one - 'own goal', I think is the expression..


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:15 PM

Just because people dislike him and what they think he stands for, it doesn't mean that all his observations are wrong. Most are, in my opinion.

Whilst I wouldn't vote for the BNP, I AM concerned about how insidious the loss of our heritage has become.

We are becoming a race of people who are not allowed to express our fears and concerns because we'll be labelled 'racist'. Yet those 'in control' appear happy for those rules to be broken by the the Muslim groups (in particular) that openly preach death and destruction to our people and our way of life.

We are told that the vast majority of Islamic adherents are peace-loving and want nothing more out of life than we do. But they are just that - a silent majority and apparently powerless to stop the radicals that are painting all Islam with a terrorist brush - unless of course, they tacitly approve of this invasion.

Because, in that particular area, I agree with the BNP view - does that make me a racist, bigot or whatever, or does it make me a realist?

Quite often, I'm not sure anymore. I must admit to being very worried about where this country is heading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:27 PM

We haven't lost our heritage, which has assimilated Romans, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Normans. We've broadened it to accommodate east-europeans and non-europeans....

Kitty


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:31 PM

"Thats hardly the point Silas, Mr Griffin has every right to stand for election....even if he received only one vote."

What are you on? Have I suggested or even hinted that he was not? The British Nazi Party has as much right to suffer electoral humiliation as anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM

Hmmm   Assimilating Romans and Vikings.....eh I dont think so

Wasn't it more a case of, "give us your crops and cattle, we'll even take your wives and daughters".....THEN, we'll slit your throats.

All those you mention, came as conquorers or pirates.
Assimilate or die!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:48 AM

"From: akenaton - PM
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 02:38 PM

I am not a member of the BNP, or even a supporter, but there is much hypocrisy in the Anti Griffin campaign.

I wont forget when Mr Griffin appeared on BBC Question Time and was referred to as a Fascist sympathiser by a certain Mr Straw.

Mr Griffin retorted that his father had served in the RAF fighting Fascism in WW2, while Mr Straw's father had spent the war in jail, as a conscientious objector.

While I admire pacifist ideology, Mr Straw's comments were ill advised in the extreme.
The response is in line for "most cutting of the decade"



Rubbish. What either of thire fathers did odid not do in WW2 has no relavence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:05 AM

Just to put the record straight....Although I think of myself as a radical, I very much agree with Brian's post above.

Too many people allow their political label to influence their powers of reason.

This is very obvious in the Republican/Democrat War in the USA where folks are immediately defined by the way they vote.
People cast their votes for all sorts of reasons

Mostly its the "least worst" option.....Isn't that a shame, when we could be spending time and energy constructing something which we could believe in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:20 AM

The thing about the Conservative, Labour, Monster Raving Looney Party, etc - they don't involve huge police presence.

We should be able to charge them (financially) for costing us so much.

Given the fact that so many English people were killed in a war against fascism - the BNP is a bit like if I formed a Lets Shit in Drinking water Party. It outrages people - its very presence does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 08:26 AM

Well, I don't. Far from it. Phrases like 'concerned for the loss of our heritage' are exactly the mealy-mouthed utterances of a closet racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:23 AM

Is his intention of standing to win a seat, or just to bring in thugs (sorry activists) during the campaign to stir up as much hatred and racial divide as possible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM

Akenaton. Nick Griffin's father wasn't fighting fascists in WW2. He worked in radar. Nothing wrong with that but, as David Dimbleby said when Griffin gave forth with this remark, "What's that got to do with it".

Griffin is a fascist whether his father fought in WW2 or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 10:32 AM

SPB. Griffin won't win, or even come close. But Oldham is one of the BNP strongholds and it has a high Muslim population. The present election will be a very good opportunity for the BNP to stir up inter-ethnic conflict. They will stir it because they know there are people in this world who are daft enough to support them and blame the Muslim population for the resulting violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Ringer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:19 AM

"Phrases like 'concerned for the loss of our heritage' are exactly the mealy-mouthed utterances of a closet racist."

So how does one discuss our heritage and its possible loss without being labelled a closet racist by the fascist word-police?

Or is our heritage not a fit subject for discussion?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:24 AM

How can you possibly lose a heritage? What EXACTLY does it mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 11:26 AM

whoever is safeguarding our culture, I don't want the BNP doing it. Their record speaks for itself.

Some of the leaders have very dodgy backgrounds (possession of explosives )and one of their number did the gay pub bombing - isn't that so?

they're a bad lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:02 PM

"Loss of our heritage"

I don't know what it means to Nick Griffin, but I do know what it means to me.

When I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, I could pretty much say or write what I pleased and the worst I risked was a bollocking from a 'grown up'.

We had toys called gollywogs - much loved by kids . . .

Nursery rhymes such as Baa Baa Black Sheep were fun for kids . . .

We had stopcocks for turning off fluids in pipes . . .

We had manhole covers that allowed inspections of sub-surface utilities . . .

I could describe myself as a 'Brit' and someone from Pakistan as a 'Paki' . . .

We looked forward to Christmas, not XMas, or Season's Greetings . . .

Asylum seekers who had been convicted of crimes, then fatally injuring a little girl with their car and leaving her to die . . . would have been sent home - without considering HIS human rights . . .

People were not afraid to clear the snow outside their house (and perhaps even the neighbour's too) because if someone slipped, they'd say 'oops' . . .

We played and enjoyed silly things like rolling cheeses downhill, playing conkers and riding our bikes (with lights) . . .

Perhaps this is just an insight to what I mean when I say 'loss of our heritage'. There's plenty more over the last 60 years, but above is just a sample.

We didn't even know what politically correct meant, foreigners were even welcomed as they actually had FEWER rights than those of us who were born and grew up here.

We were a lot more PROUD to be British (before that became a joke amongst the manic do-gooders).

So, is Nick Griffin a fascist? Probably, but that doesn't make everything he says wrong.

I lament the changes I've seen in the last few years, we are losing our identity or more accurately, it's being stripped and given away by well meaning individuals and groups who won't address reality for what it is.

WE are being exploited. If you doubt it, have a good read of Wikileaks, listen to what the vocal 'british Moslems' are saying, count the mosques.

But you can dismiss me as another 'rabid fascist' or you can consider the levels of frustration that causes a response such as this. Do me a favour, go back and read it again, suspend disbelief and consider that me and mine (generation) might just have a point too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:05 PM

I think Nanci Griffith should stand as well just to confuse 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:14 PM

My late wife was born in South Africa of British parents. We lived out there for a short time. Griffin reminds me of Ian Smith. Smith Was a nasty piece of work. He also used to go on about his service in the RAF. His Hurricane crashing, his Spitfire being shot down. Smith was a narrow-minded bigot who promoted division and hatred. Why do these people always bring up service history ?

The British National Party worship a regime and political philosophy that would enslave the British people. The BNP offer hope to no one. They are built on hate and full of poison, they are toxic.

They also call themselves a "Christian Party". Last year they held a secret meeting in Winsford Lifestyle Centre. They booked the hall under the name of the "Christian Council of Britain". Believe me, will not be allowed to do that again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:15 PM

So, it's foreigners' that are responsible for all this is it?

Seldom do I get the opportunity to read such mindless drivel - you should be ashamed of yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:16 PM

My post was aimed at Brian


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:57 PM

`Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect`

So, he`ll be sober that day I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 02:17 PM

'aimed at Brian'

Why on earth would I be ashamed of myself. For not being happy about where this country is going?

Or for being so outrageous as to suggest that just because Nick Griffin is so reviled that everything he says is not wrong.

I think I have again encountered closed minds.

One day, perhaps, you'll wake up and realise just what is gone . . .

What I find surprising is just how spiteful, vehement and vicious people can be that are unwilling to even consider another viewpoint - that's a bit like the things they accuse Nick Griffin of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 02:21 PM

Possibly what you do not know and maybe should: these people have fucked people over on Myspace, Youtube and Facebook. I now have two addresses of those who were involved. I expect we will meet at some time or other. I shall certainly try, anyway.

The B-N-P are asshole Nazis, and that`s the best that can be said of them.

As to your immigration laws, speak with your government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:34 PM

I don't recall giving the BNP any support at all, - beyond saying not everything Nick Griffin says is wrong - it would be an almost inhuman ability for anyone living to be able to get it wrong ALL the time (mind you Dubya got close).

I really don't consider that to be support to 'asshole Nazis', quite the opposite actually, because I'm willing to discuss the topic rather than rely on trotting out the normal stereotypical rhetoric.

I don't support the attacks you've mentioned on ANYONE, irrespective of who they are. What's that actually got to do with the observations I made above - it's also NOT the immigration laws at all - it's about misguided souls lining up to give up our heritage to many people who are cynically here (UK) to take, take, take and regard our country with contempt. History will judge.

Anyway, there are none so blind as those who will not see, so I shall desist from further comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM

I meant no offense to you, Brian. I do understand in a way. But Asshole and his ilk are NOT the answer. I do not perceive you to be a supporter of theirs. You have an IQ over fifty and therefore couldn`t possibly see much good in them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:30 PM

Whilst that's the mother of back-handed compliments, accepted and thank you.

I most certainly do NOT support bully-boy tactics of any flavour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:46 PM

"Losing our heritage" is something that could, and probably has, been claimed at any point in our history. The only constant thing we've ever had is change; it's a nonsensical claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:30 PM

You're correct of course, that never occurred to me, how could I be so shallow . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM

My criticism is of the party's use of that notion as propaganda. We all know fings aint what they used to be, but they never were.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:58 PM

"foreigners were even welcomed as they actually had FEWER rights than those of us who were born and grew up here."

Would you like to restate that, and see if it still sounds like what it could imply as it's worded now?

"count the mosques"

How many mosques for each church at this point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:17 AM

I wouldn't blame 'loss of heritage' on any other ethic group. it is a case that the majority of "white British" are so apathetic about our own heritage and traditions, whereas other cultures embrace their heritage and customs.

In terms of major customs, e.g. Christmas, Easter, the have become so commercialised, and I would predict that more people are interested in what is on television in the evening, than looking at either the religious significance, or even the older secular traditions.

If anything, the biggest loss of heritage, in my opinion, was in the first half of the twentieth century, with many customs being revived post-war, and I would argue that our heritage is more alive now than it was 60 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:41 AM

Richie. The Christian Council of Britain is a B_N_P front. Among its leaders is the B_N_P_s tame "christian", "Rev." Robert West. The man is a fraud. He is no more a reverend than I am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:35 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May - PM
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 01:02 PM

"Loss of our heritage"

I don't know what it means to Nick Griffin, but I do know what it means to me.
""

Do you really Brian.

Perhaps you would tell me to which heritage you refer?


The Pict, Scot, or Celt heritage?
The Jute heritage?
The Angle heritage?
The Dane heritage?
The Viking heritage?
The Saxon heritage?
The Roman heritage?
The Norman heritage?
The Dutch heritage?
The German heritage?

Forget about Akenaton's rather transparent red herring, because it doesn't matter how or why they arrived. What matters is that we assimilated them.

Our language is primarily composed of Latin and Greek derived words, with a smattering of all the other languages.

We don't speak French, so we must have assimilated the Normans into our culture, not vice versa, and even Dutch and German imported monarchs adapted to our culture.

Our whole history is one of adaptation and change, and we are arguably the stronger for it. The current situation is merely a step along that road. By espousing or even entertaining the views of bigots, you give credence to their disruptive ideals.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 09:12 AM

As I have stated several times many racial and religious minorities have absolutely no intention of being "assimilated"

In fact many are prepared to die to stop that "assimilation"

The 7/7 attacks may have been brought on by our foreign policy, but make no mistake they were a symptom of a clash of cultures, and we will see many more symptoms in the future, unless we are prepared to be assimilated into their way of thinking.

The vast majority of Muslims are devout...nor like us wishy washy Christians.....its no contest really!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 09:20 AM

Why should they be 'assimilated? There is nothing wrong with cultural diversity and never has been. We are a richer and better nation for it. There will be points where our cultures converge and there will also be areas where we diverge - that is life. We don't have to hate each other for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 09:42 AM

""The 7/7 attacks may have been brought on by our foreign policy, but make no mistake they were a symptom of a clash of cultures, and we will see many more symptoms in the future, unless we are prepared to be assimilated into their way of thinking.

The vast majority of Muslims are devout...nor like us wishy washy Christians.....its no contest really!
""

That's what the Normans thought!!!

It's a question of numbers. As more second and third generation immigrant descendants marry English spouses, the division between "us" and "them" grows more indistinct.

In the time of Richard I, it was utterly unthinkable for an English person to marry a jew, whereas now, while the Jews still practise their religion, intermarriage is not only possible, it is commonplace.

Since when did we require anybody to give up the practise of their religion to fit in?

Don T.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM

So we just wait patiently for a couple of hundred years?

Get a fuckin' grip!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:00 PM

Sorry pressed the wrong button.

This "liberal" ideology of "rights" and "equality" above all else is madness....Rights and equality are only words they never existed and never will exist especially now when we are going to be struggling to survive....will the pensioner in some sink estate who's heating bills are about to double and whose social services will be cut to the bone through the failure of a stinking greed inspired system have any rights or equality.....I dont fuckin' think so!

And you prats waffle on about the civil rights of religious fanatics who see us as weak dissolute scum; and the civil rights of sexual minorities who behaviour makes them the most unhealthy(and expensive) sections of society.

The important thing now is to recognise how we have been conned and robbed by our economic system ....and to remedy that state of affairs quickly before we are all enslaved in real terms, not just economic terms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:23 PM

The important thing now is to recognise how we have been conned and robbed by our economic system

Darn right it is, Ake, but few want to face up to the reality of that, it seems. It's easier to keep borrowing, and assuming that if everyone pretends it's real money, it'll turn into wealth.

I'm inclined to agree with you about rights and equality too; although laudable ideals, they don't actually exist yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:30 PM

Exactly so, Smokey!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:08 PM

How d'you get from Nick Griffin to this?

You can't vote for him. He's bonkers. that's all there is to it.

Have you seen the BNP? The politicians look(and sound) like The Pub Landlord. The followers look like door men at a night club - all bullet heads and leather jackets and medallions - they look like the kind of people who keep fierce dogs - and that's only the women.

The Mekons probably seemed to have one or two good ideas, but Dan Dare had the measure of them.

If the BNP come round canvassing, give them a blast with your ray gun. Dan Dare would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 02:17 PM

Well Al, I have a much bigger grievance against Mr Blair, Mr Straw and other assorted "socialists" from the New Labour fold than I do against Mr Griffin and his rag tag faction.

As far as destructive power goes the BNP are not in the same league.
The real enemy are the do-nothing "liberal" evolutionists....."the enablers of Capitalism"


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:07 PM

Monsieur Akenaton

I really believe we have far more in common than I thought . . .

I find very little to argue with in your last couple of posts.

You, at least, seemed to have grasped my point that it's not actually the immigrants per se (who can blame most of them), but the "it's about misguided souls lining up to give up our heritage to many people who are cynically here (UK) to take, take, take and regard our country with contempt".

I find the 'everything's OK lobby' pretty sickening. If it takes the BNP to shake things up a bit, then he can't be all bad.

I really am going to leave this particular discussion as it will take 20 years or so for these plonkers to realise what they allowed to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:10 PM

Leaving? Again? Really?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 04:26 PM

I'd be interested to know if there's anyone here who thinks 'everything's OK'.. or indeed, that having things 'shaken up a bit' by that fat one-eyed twat and his bunch of ugly crayon chewers could possibly be beneficial to our predicament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:47 PM

What are you talking about Ake?

Surely we should worry about all extreme dangerous authoritarian religions.

The problem with your PoV however is that if you do a bit of reading (other than the daily mail) while there may be room for concern about some expressed views as to the basics of Islam (eg is Jihad the primary duty, and does it refer to the armed struggle against infidels or does it refer to the constant struggle to improve oneself?) it is not in theory a topdown authoritarian belief (unlike catholicism) but one in which the believer must for himself interpret the religion. I hope I have that right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:09 PM

Yes Silas, they get bored with pedestrian intellects like our own who think Griffins a complete twat, I bet he's off to read the TV times and discuss it with Steamin Willie.

Socrates and Aristotle....

As Tony Hancock said about the leader of his poetry society, "He's on a much higher level. This bloke thinks Bertand Russell is a bit of a charlie...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:42 PM

Anyone who laments the fact that, in the 60s, we called Pakistanis "Pakis," yet are now disapproved of if we talk the same way, and think that this constitutes the loss in part of our heritage, doesn't enjoy the kind of heritage that I want to hang on to, thank you very much.

As for the BNP not having the same destructive power as our mainstream parties (with whom I have no allegiances, by the way), well that could be something to do with the fact that they have not actually had power. Sorry to raise such an obscure point. I could, however, as some sort of indicator at least, point to the destructive power of their fellow travellers in Europe 70 years ago. Plenty of destructive power there was endured by quite a few Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, among others, as I recall...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:50 PM

Is Griffin an atheist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:03 AM

He's something starting with A
(cryptic clue - everyone'es got one, a location noted for lack of sunshine)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:49 AM

I've been thinking about what you said in this thread about Blair, Ake.

The thing is, that Blair was no better, no worse than most of the others in his position. Sure he disappointed - but which PM didn't. They're all not really in control of the situation, up the yanks bum by necessity - riding the rollercoaster of international finaciers - admittedly made easier by all the deregulation of recent years, but how much choice did Thatch and major have in that. You have to wonder.

The BNP is something different. I don't think their real aim is to win elections. Their main thing is to recruit people who would like to kick your liberal teeth to the other side of your head. People who feel disenfranchised and are tired of being shouted at by Jeremy Kyle.

You know, Hitler didn't need major numbers of storm troopers to impose his will. Just in little towns all over Germany, they knew if it were requested the storm troopers would arrive.

They'll be arriving in Oldham this week. Coloured folk will walk on the other side of the road when they see gangs of bullet heads in a little knots giving out leaflets. Getting them to wear stars is only a small move from there.

When they've been to a town near you - you will understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:25 PM

""So we just wait patiently for a couple of hundred years?

Get a fuckin' grip!
""

No mate. You get a fucking grip and haul what we laughingly refer to as your mind out of its twelfth century attitudes.

There is no limit to the number of people you hate, or despise, for the differences between us and them, and your bias is couched in the most immoderate language, but no matter how inflammatory your comments, it makes not one jot of difference to the lavck of truth.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:32 PM

""Plenty of destructive power there was endured by quite a few Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, among others, as I recall... ""

No good trying to talk to Ake about those groups Steve. He's way further to the right than Nick's forerunners on that subject.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 01:58 PM

Hello Al...nice to see you back.
I agree pretty much with your take on the psychology of most BNP supporters(from what I have seen of them),they do feel disenfranchised, like many more from all political positions.

We have all see the excesses of "liberalism" even the financial mentdown could be tied to the ideology.
The two most contentious "liberal" issues, "multiculturalism" and the promotion of homosexuality...are not party political but social and health issues....and people hold differing opinions on them regardless of which party they belong to.
When capitalism is in decline, as it is now in the UK, society splits into battle lines, but the problems which lead to that split should be addressed now. The survival of society is more important than the civil rights of often transient racial groups, or sexual minorities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM

""Plenty of destructive power there was endured by quite a few Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, among others, as I recall... ""

Ahem....you forgot to mention who they went for first Don....."The Commies"; and as I've been a Commie most of my life, I would suggest that a Tory like you is nearer to Mr Hitler's mindset than I am.

Oh and Don,you've stumbled on my blackest secret.....I'm a closet "liberal"........I hate everyone....equally! :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM

`Don`t matter what people call you; it matters what you answer to.`

WC Fields


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM

:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:43 PM

I wrote a song one time about the BNP standing outside the school playground trying to recruit kids.

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id35.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 04:48 PM

However I am persona no grata with the left wing song gang, I did a spot at this years Tolpuddle Martyrs Festival and this woman said one of my songs trivialised violence to women. I should be grateful she'd come to me to complain about my songs rather than the organiser of the event, and I was never to sing it again.

The offending song:-

http://www.bigalwhittle.co.uk/id22.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:05 PM

Leaving? Again? Really?

It's worth popping back Silas . . . if only just to annoy you! ;o)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM

The words to the second song don't seem to be there, Alan, but I like the other one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 08:26 PM

Got the audio now (javascript..) - excellent stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 10 - 09:22 PM

I dunno. Although I'm sure the woman was older than me, it made me feel like museum piece, i can tell you.

I could have argued she had misunderstood the song. but I'm not used to having to defend my right to sing what i want.

This stuff about civil rights for minorities don't matter. It sort of shakes you up when its the side you've aligned yourself with, coming out with it.

I've got to admit I suddenly feel - well where the hell is there to go with music that's not about merry ploughboys. And the fact is theres nowhere.Absolutely nowhere on the middle class map. So its back to the pub lounges, where at least you have the feedom of nobody really listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 01:40 AM

There'll always be clueless punters, Alan..


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 01:33 PM

Sorry to send everyone round in six different circles at once, with my original posting on this topic. However, the latest news from Oldham is that Griffin won't be standing after all. Instead the seat will be contested by a local fascist name of Derek Adams.

The best information available suggests that Griffin has pulled out after being informed by other luminaries that the party's finances are in no fit state to withstand a major campaign.

In other words, it looks as though we can all rest festive and merry. May their downward decline continue unabated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 07:11 PM

Al, your link appears to discuss the song but not contain a way to play it.

While I like to play folk (1954) I also do contemporary political songs and at a very middle class event in Ash Canterbury earlier this year was complimented (I think) after a couple of songs that no-one could mistake my political perspective. I had however started with trad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 08:59 PM

Its very strange this phenomenon of right wing parties in England. i get the impression (whatever their financial staus) the BNP are gaining ground.

I can't remember a time when the main political parties were led by such characterless people. I wouldn't like to guess what any of them believed in.

I think this vacuum is what makes the present situation so dangerous. the BNP doesn't really need an ideology - just a dislike of what democracy has brought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Dec 10 - 09:05 PM

Al, your link appears to discuss the song but not contain a way to play it.

Switch your Javascript on, RB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:09 AM

You have in fact hit the nail right on the head Al.

The mainstream politicians have been exposed as frauds....I dont think they ever did "believe"

And the results of "democratic liberalism" are there for all to see.

You are also correct in your assessment of the popularity of people who really believe in what they preach....be it on the left or on the right, it matters nothing.
As a country and as a society we have been comprehensively fucked by Capitalism.....but dont blame the messanger, we need to start seriously looking at alternatives.

Stick with the old parties and your heritage is the old discredited system......we are about to see it without the "sheeps clothing" of "democracy"


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:12 AM

OK akenaton, let's hear about these alternatives then...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 06:45 AM

Would you like me to come and dicht yer erse fur ye? ';0)

First thing is ....open eyes, engage brain, clear out all the divisive party political rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Ringer
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 07:26 AM

"As a country and as a society we have been comprehensively fucked by Capitalism..."

What nonsense. Capitalism has given us prosperity the like of which the world has never before seen; the poorest of us live better than kings would have done half a millenium ago. Sure, it's taken a step backwards in the last 3 years or so, but it will recover and deliver even greater prosperity.

There are no alternatives to capitalism and its sister, liberal democracy. A few have been tried; where are they now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 07:36 AM

"First thing is ....open eyes, engage brain, clear out all the divisive party political rubbish."

Then go and vote for your local nazi?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 08:37 AM

Al,The BNP is not gaining ground. In fact it is losing it. Witness their decline in membership. 14,000 3 years ago. Less than 10,000 now. Witnesss the stack of lost deposits in the last general election, plus the trouncing they got in Barking and Dagenham, plus the endless rounds of in-fighting, expulsions etc. And witness the total mess of their party finances.

The point is for anyone who hates fascism to make sure they continue unabated on their merry way into oblivion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 09:54 AM

Well lets hope you're right Fred. I wish I could share your optimism.

This latest round of ecomonic difficulties have only just begun to bite. What is worrying is the cluelessness of the main parties. Perhaps they aren't clueless, but they don't have a spring in their step any more. have you seen the figures for this months borrowing requirement - nearly a quarter as much again as Labour in the same period - and that was thought to be a disaster last year.

If someone doesn't start working the magic soon, within a couple of years you'll have the classic economic and political condtions for fascism to take hold.

these guys don't need an ideology - just knuckle dusters for idle hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 10:18 AM

If your "heritage" consists of playing with racist little dolls, then it's better off lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 10:23 AM

NeilDI assume you are refering to 'Golliwogs'?
Well, they are not 'racist' little dolls, they are simply black rag dolls (though usually knitted) and were (and are) as much loved by kids as the 'Jemima' white ones. The name is slightly unfortunate, though they were mostly reffered to a 'Gollys'. It is only relatively recently that Robertsons have stopped using theon their jams. This is where the PC brigade get their knickers in a twist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM

Al, you are absolutely correct. However, Griffin and the rest of the BNP leadership are too thick to run a whelk stall, let alone conduct a serious fascist takeover. Plus, I think the BNP has gone too far down the road of constitutionality and ostensible respectability, for them to reinvent themselves as the kind of street fighting semi-terrorist mob that is classical fascism, and which succeeds where constitutionalism doesn't.

In short, for fascism to stand anything more than a snowball in hell's chance of getting anywhere, it would need a new leader and a new and even nastier organisation than the one we confront at present.

The problem is that when the conditions you mentioned are in place, a demagogue will emerge to take advantage of them; someone who has brains and charisma, and an ability to connect with and lead the millions of disaffected. Griffin may be a nasty piece of work, but he falls well short of those requirements.

If the BNP is crushed well before said conditions and demagogue emerge, it won't represent an infrastructure that he can build from. That will give us just a little bit of a breathing space.

Silas, I'm afraid you're a bit late to buy from the extensive range of gollywogs, or gollys as the BNP rechristened them to avoid clashes with the law, from the BNP's Excalibur website. They started stocking them after Carol Thatcher (I think it was her)caused a furore by referring to someone as a gollywog, but have now reduced their selection to a poor and pathetic sampling. You can however still buy an "English by the grace of God" mug from them. If you don't like that, they have various books on sale retailing crackpot theories about race, evolution, DNA and how wonderful it is to be European. And there's "Enoch was Right" badges, a CD of songs written by Nick Griffin, plus a whole stack of highly offensive T shits. What a swinging place the Excalibur warehouse must be. What a personal embarressment that it's less than 20 miles away from where I live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 11:15 AM

where., is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 11:17 AM

Err, Fred, I wish in no way to be associated wth the British Nazi Party as if you read my previous post, will be perfectly obvious.
However, the 'Golly' or 'Gollywog' was a perfectly innocent childs toy - it is nothing more that a black rag doll. The naming of it has caused afew 'problems' but the thing itself cannot by any standard be called a racist little doll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 12:27 PM

Silas. Sorry, I wasn't implying that you were. The problem lies with the meanings which can be placed on these things. Many people regard the gollywog as a harmless toy, and I wish that we as a species were so devoid of racism that it could not possibly have any other connotation.

Unfortunately, this harmless doll was adopted by the BNP as a symbol of negritude, of racial inferiority if you like. At their summer camp at Codnor last year, a group of BNP members decided to hold a mock trial and lynching. I can't remember what the accused was accused of, probably of being here and being black. But what did they use to symbolise the "ethnically inferior" invaders? A gollywog, that's what.

Like I said, it's all down to signs and symbols and interpretations. Curiously enough, they named the accused doll Winston. But that was a hangover from the days when Winston Churchill was seen by the BNP as an arch traitor, who led us into a so called "totally unneccesary war", instead of siding with Hitler against the Slavic hordes.

Shortly afterwards, the leadership of the BNP realised there was mileage to be had in invoking WW2, and the Dunkirk spirit and the white cliffs of Dover and all that. Overnight, their portrayal of Churchill turned 180 degrees. Suddenly he symbolised the British people standing up against foreign invasion and standing for all things British.

The BNP are not just a bunch of sick fascists. They are also a bunch of liars and hypocrites and opportunists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 12:33 PM

Strangely enough. I had something in that line happen to me.

Before we moved last year, my wife used to be on the committee of a self help group for people with arthritis. (the illness not the mudcatter).

Anyway there was this little old lady in the group who used knit little woollen dolls as a hobby for club funds. The were lovely things all hand knitted and of course, amongst her repertoire was the golliwog.

Well we had several coloured members. so the committee were wondering what to do. You could ask everybody individually if they were offended - but in a way that would be pressurising them, and anyway you do that and you could get a new member that did take exception. And the old lady in question was a very nice old lady - so what to do...

I remember we had one committee member who was up for a fight and wanted Denise (my wife) to register disgust and annoyance that we harboured such a racist beast in our midst. he wasn't keen to do it himself, but we kept getting phone calls that this was our duty.

Finally Denise broached the subject with old lady and she said okay, I'll just put another head on them. I think when nice old ladies in their 80's can get the situation, most other folk should be able to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 12:52 PM

Hi Al
The 'problem' here is the name, isn't it? These things are just childs dolls. If you are saying that there should not be black ones as well as white ones, then that may be racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 01:26 PM

Still here Silas. . . I actually AGREE with you about gollywogs, my sisters loved theirs to bits. There was no trace of irony in them, they were kids and loved them.

Interesting little conundrum for the PC brigade. . .

In Doncaster, the nursery rhyme Baa Baa Black Sheep is no longer acceptable and it's been replaced with Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep.

I was up on the North York Moors not too long ago and there was a field full of . . . yes, black sheep. How on earth do you explain that level of stupidity to children?

Also the 'brainstorm' verb is non-PC as being too aggressive, now it's 'thought showers'. Does anyone truly believe that this kind of reaction to perceived racism (usually NOT from the ethnic minorities) does any good?

I've a good friend who is of Afro-Caribbean ethnicity (apparently) - she just says 'I'm black and quite happy about that'. Very refreshing realism.

OK, waiting for the next lot of stereo-typical rhetoric . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:19 PM

Ringer, among all the self serving crap on this thread, your post at least deserves a response.

You are quite correct in saying that capitalism provided prosperity, two hundred, one hundred, fifty, thirty years ago.
For most of that time we had an Empire to rob, a workforce for whom prosperity was only a dream, a population which dutifully died in Capitalism's wars.
The people in my section of society have never lived like kings, my life and the lives of my neighbours have been a constant struggle.
When my children were small I worked over 70 hrs a week plus a few nights till eleven o' clock.....not some desk job, but back breaking toil....laying 18"x 9"x9" concrete blocks, or mixing and screeding 100 sq yds of concrete.....Kings....you obviously haven't a clue.

Like many of my brothers and sisters, I sold my strength and life to bring up my family.
And that was in the good times for Capitalism, but the times they are a changin'
Our Empire has gone, we pay top dollar for everything we need from the East. We are uncompetitive in manufacturing and heavy industry.
Our new "liberal" ideology wants it all, without hard work or personal responsibility.
Capitalism has chewed us up and spat out the bones, just as it will do with all the nations and peoples waiting for the curse of development.

I can assure you that Capitalism has no sister, and liberal democracy is a mirage.....surely the political events of the last five years prove that conclusively.

Capitalism has no sister, but she has a child. Made in her own image, but without the old disguises....the faux democracy, the phoney liberalism.....the child is coming of age, and who do you think will give Fascism the biggest welcome into society....not the radicals from left or right,(they will be the first into the ovens), but the evolutionary, equality loving, centre left.

They say history always repeats itself!....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 21 Dec 10 - 05:26 PM

"Unfortunately, this harmless doll was adopted by the BNP as a symbol of negritude, of racial inferiority if you like."

Hi Frank
I was not aware of that, but now that you have enlightened me, I think it even more important that the scum are not allowed to appropriate this perfectly harmless childs toy and turn it into a symbol. It's time we reclaimed the Goly (and the flag) from these bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:31 AM

Silas. It's Fred, not Frank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Silas
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:29 AM

Apologies Fred - the combination of my poor eyesight, my dysexia and a crap keyboard make these things happen all too often.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 10:27 AM

""Plus, I think the BNP has gone too far down the road of constitutionality and ostensible respectability, for them to reinvent themselves as the kind of street fighting semi-terrorist mob that is classical fascism, and which succeeds where constitutionalism doesn't.""

I worry about that level of complacency when I see what appears to me to be the scum scraped off the BNP image in the name of vote gathering respectability, reappearing on the streets as the English Defence League.

Do you really think those 4000 vanished members just gave up?

I'm reminded of groups of men in brown shirts who did all the dirty work required by a Nazi Party gathering votes for an election.

"Plausible deniability"!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:24 PM

Don,

I thought the rest of my post indicated that the demise of the BNP would be no cause at all for celebration or complacency. Fascism is a rag bag product of specific social and economic conditions, far more than it is the product of tactics or strategies or ideologies. If and when those social and economic conditions re-emerge then fascism will reassert itself on a mass scale, with no pretence of constitutionality.

Will the EDL be part of that reassertion? Well, the EDL is a single issue virtual organisation. IE., it was brought into existence to oppose the spread of so called Islamist extremism, although EDL supporters are also known for attacking anti-fascist and socialist meetings, as well as denouncing British Airways strikers and attacking Swansea Trades Council's May Day march. Most worryingly of all, it has now aligned itself with the establishment over university education cuts and increased tuition fees, threatening violence against student protesters.

In other words, while I don't think the EDL will re-invent itself as a fully fledged fascist organisation, it is clearly starting to emerge as the British 21st century equivalent of those "groups of men in brown shirts", the para-military face of fascism which the BNP has traditionally shunned, and which will be extremely useful to a nascent fascist demagogue.

Thus, if we allow them breathing space, the EDL will eventually be sucked into some future fascist movement, just like the ashes of the BNP.

Overall then, whilst I look forwarding to dancing on the BNP's grave in hob nailed boots, the demise of the BNP will not mean the demise of fascism, any more than the death of Margaret Thatcher will herald the demise of capitalism.

And yes, the EDL represents its own threat to all of us who wish to live in a free and democratic society, one which is devoid of ethnic bigotry, concentration camps, and all the other paraphenalia of fascism. But we were talking about the BNP after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 08:33 AM

An Englishman, an Irishman and a Pakistani walk into a bar.

What a wonderful example of a multi-cultural community.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 09:52 AM

So what's wrong with :

A Brit, a Paddy and a Paki walk into the bar?

Nothing in my book, when I was a kid it was OK, now it seems it isn't (someone needs to get a life, and it isn't me . . .)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:28 AM

well its not all right now, it probably wasn't when you were a kid.

I reckon all that headbanging at the end of Bohemian Rhapsody is starting to take its toll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:44 AM

Along with Frogs, Yanks, Krauts etc it was OK.

In the 50s we had other things to worry about . . . including global cooling (my, how the wheel turns).

Still, it's reassuring to know there's no sign of political correctness in my day to day life.

Have a great Christmas all out there . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 08:17 AM

""And yes, the EDL represents its own threat to all of us who wish to live in a free and democratic society, one which is devoid of ethnic bigotry, concentration camps, and all the other paraphenalia of fascism. But we were talking about the BNP after all.""

As I see it, the EDL appear to be a plausibly deniable offshoot of the BNP, allowing for that organisation to promote the breaking of heads, while giving the appearance of a respectable political movement.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

""So what's wrong with :

A Brit, a Paddy and a Paki walk into the bar?

Nothing in my book, when I was a kid it was OK, now it seems it isn't (someone needs to get a life, and it isn't me . . .)
""

I'm surprised that anybody with your intelligence and experience cannot understand the difference between those words used as abbreviations (which was exactly the use in the 1950s), and the same words hurled, with obvious hatred, as pejorative epithets.

As the latter is the use to which they have been put over more than thirty years, nobody should be surprised that they are considered inappropriate for use in polite society.

I'm as sick as the next man of unnecessary political correctness, but, if the language we use offends the recipient, then that language is per se offensive, and I was brought up to believe that a gentleman is one who takes care not to give offence..............to anyone!!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 08:29 AM

Save when necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 06:44 AM

Don, I heartily agree. PC can get out of hand on occasion, access chambers and all that. But if using the "n" word offends people the simple answer is not to use it.

Somewhat off topic, here's an amusing example of far right dishonesty. Coach travelling from Gateshead to Preston for recent EDL demo gets slight shunt from rear. Driver says he would be amazed if anybody had been hurt in the incident, adding 'There was not much more than a scratch on the back corner.'

The coach had 25 EDL supporters on board and the total seating capacity is 57. Guess how many EDL supporters are now claiming for whiplash injuries as a result of this minor shunt? 78.

Yup. 78 upstanding solid citizens who think themselves fit to tell hard working honest Muslims that they're not wanted in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM

I mentioned in an earlier posting that Ecalibur, the BNP's odious merchandising outlet, was located uncomfortably close to where I live. Well, it was within 20 miles of me anyway and, brother at that distance, the stench of racism it emits can be pretty nauseating.

I must confess the smell hasn't been too bad lately, for it seems they've moved. At any rate snailmail orders now have to be sent to a PO box No with the postcode CV11 9FP.

That's not surprising, following the downsizing, mass expulsions, near bankruptcy and general total utter chaos which characterises the BNP's attempts to present itself as the party of the master race. They probably need somewhere smaller and cheaper to house the few remaining bits of right wing tat which they still carry.

The odd thing is that when I searched for CV11 9FP in Google Maps, I was presented with a very nice view of a ploughed field, with not a single building in sight for several hundred yards.

Such obscurantism would make a modicum of common sense, given that the BNP are rather adept at obscuring their tracks on every possible occasion.

But how does it work, I wonder? Does the postman leave the mail under a specially designated clod of earth, half way up the first furrow? Does he perchance follow the talking white rabbit into the hole, there to present the mail to the queen, who shouts "orf wiv 'is 'ead" before the postman makes a welcome escape to the normality of the real world?

Could it even be that we have encountered the mad march hare, the fabulous talking griffin, the Berlin bunker, the royal tea party and the jar of Marmite rolled into one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 03:21 AM

Don,

One of the problems with "Political Correctness" is that it can be used to blur the boundaries of what is socially acceptable.

In terms of language, in my view a word or phrase ceases to be socially acceptable when its common usage become a derogatory term to describe a particular section of the community, or is deemed to vulgar for mixed company, whereas PC is much more patronising where 'polite society' deem a word of phrase could be potentially offensive.

I think as a society we have grown up in that racism is no longer acceptable in humour - but it is interesting that as racism decreased, vulgarity increased.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Brian May
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:56 AM

I'm beginning to get heartily sick of 'what is socially acceptable' because, in the extreme, we are getting legislation backing up a minority view of the world.

I don't set out to upset anybody (accidentally), but it would appear that small numbers of people, with their tiny-minded agendas don't really give a toss how many people they upset in their mini-crusades.

Appeasement didn't work in the late 30s and it isn't going to work now. Watch this space.

And, as for those intent on 'jumping on this statement', fill your boots- treat yourself, because I really don't give a damn about your tiny-minded attitudes. I'll only bother when you're in a position to force me to listen to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 10:48 AM

""In terms of language, in my view a word or phrase ceases to be socially acceptable when its common usage become a derogatory term to describe a particular section of the community,""

Which was precisely the point I was making in answer to Brian May's comment about the terms "Paki", "Brit", "Paddy" etc being acceptable.

Given that all have been widely used as pejorative descriptions of sections of society, they (and other similar terms) cannot be described as acceptable.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 10:56 AM

""I'm beginning to get heartily sick of 'what is socially acceptable' because, in the extreme, we are getting legislation backing up a minority view of the world.""

Wrong mate!! What we are getting is legislation backing up the views of the majority as to how we should treat minorities, views moreover which are mainly popposed by a minority who happen to be xenophobes.

That is the fact which blows your comment about minority legislation to hell, since that minority is rightly ignored by legislators.

Well you did invite us to jump in, though we don't have to listen to your views either.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 10:59 AM

That of course should read "mainly opposed".

Damn keyboard's got a mind of its own.

DT


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 05:50 PM

I wonder what Brian May means by "I don't set out to upset anybody (accidentally)".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:13 PM

Same as you I suppose, Richard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:21 PM

Change in meds, ake? It is impossible to set out to do something accidentally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nick Griffin to stand in Oldham by-elect
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 07:24 PM

And talking of xenophobes......Hello Ake!!

Don T.


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