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BS: Disaster for the Democrats?

Jack the Sailor 04 Nov 10 - 03:31 PM
Bobert 04 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM
Bill D 04 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM
Bobert 04 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 10 - 04:58 PM
beardedbruce 04 Nov 10 - 05:01 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Nov 10 - 05:07 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Nov 10 - 05:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Nov 10 - 05:27 PM
Genie 04 Nov 10 - 05:54 PM
beardedbruce 04 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Nov 10 - 06:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Nov 10 - 06:43 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Nov 10 - 07:07 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 10 - 07:21 PM
olddude 04 Nov 10 - 07:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Nov 10 - 07:25 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Nov 10 - 07:29 PM
Bobert 04 Nov 10 - 07:30 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 10 - 07:33 PM
Genie 04 Nov 10 - 07:38 PM
Genie 04 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM
Bobert 04 Nov 10 - 07:54 PM
Bill D 04 Nov 10 - 08:19 PM
Bill D 04 Nov 10 - 08:23 PM
Bill D 04 Nov 10 - 08:42 PM
Bobert 04 Nov 10 - 09:02 PM
Genie 04 Nov 10 - 09:07 PM
Little Hawk 04 Nov 10 - 09:31 PM
Janie 04 Nov 10 - 10:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Nov 10 - 11:16 PM
Janie 05 Nov 10 - 12:05 AM
DougR 05 Nov 10 - 01:31 AM
Greg F. 05 Nov 10 - 10:29 AM
beardedbruce 05 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM
Little Hawk 05 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM
Amos 05 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM
Bill D 05 Nov 10 - 01:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Nov 10 - 02:27 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Nov 10 - 02:29 PM
beardedbruce 05 Nov 10 - 02:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM
beardedbruce 05 Nov 10 - 02:46 PM
Little Hawk 05 Nov 10 - 02:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM
pdq 05 Nov 10 - 03:29 PM
olddude 05 Nov 10 - 03:39 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:31 PM

Side note: How come there are people, subjected to exactly the same society and media who see other people as being brainwashed but not themselves?

Should the above question have its own thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 03:34 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to to tell me exactly which lobby it was that pushed the Dems to take up health care reform... No, not tyhe ones that ended up benefiting but the ones who were on the front end of pushing it???

I mean, yeah, Gore Vidal had some very useful insights and I loved the debates he used to have with Bill Buckley but there are times when a political party does something just because it is right and because it is way overdue... The Civil Rights Act being a case in point when even Lyndon Johnson knew in pushing it he was committing suicide for the Democratic Party in the South for years to come...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM

Exactly, Bobert! There ARE some political figures who actually try to make the system work FOR the majority of the people. Unfortunately, the very rich and the corporations and their lawyers are not part of the majority, and really don't like the system changed in any way that might make them 'less' super-rich. They don't want any updates to the Constitution or any regulation of banking or any restriction of how much they can spend on political campaigns.
I sorta see their viewpoint, but knowing how a bully thinks does not excuse how he pushes around the smaller kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 04:50 PM

That's my point, Bill...

There are those here who are so stuck on the "both the same" theme that they are not capable of thinking any other way...

If they were both the same then the Repubs would have pushed for health care reform at some point in the last 8 years... But not only didn't they but none voted for health care reform...

I mean, if they are both corporate puppets then I'd think that one of
"both siders" would step up and kindly tell us which corporations pushed the Dems into this???

But that question isn't at all convenient for the "both siders" 'cause it doesn't fit nicely into their mythology...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 04:58 PM

"How come there are people, subjected to exactly the same society and media who see other people as being brainwashed but not themselves?"

Because, Jack, I get my information from reading contemporary books by various independent political anyalysts whom I respect and from consulting a great variety of independent sources...not from watching daily TV programming, not by tuning into the daily "news" (which is propaganda, distortion, and distraction) from CNN/Fox/NBC etc, and not by listening to commercial radio "news" (which is even worse). You see...I am NOT subjected to the same media most Americans are, because I don't even tune in to the mass media except for an occasional laugh and a way to remind myself how useless and corrupted they have become. I get my information elsewhere...mostly by reading books and newspaper and magazine articles and articles on the Internet (which is still free). Also, I have access to the Canadian press, which although rather dominated by its American sources is still not as stone-dead-batshit-insane as its American counterparts are.

Further to that, I can recommend the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) which is publicly funded, therefore not a compliant slave of a group of corporate commercial sponsors. Then too, there is the BBC, which usually has a much saner view of reality than American media do. And then there's the rest of the world, always worth listening to for an alternate view of reality.

The average American (and Canadian) citizen becomes a passive sponge for the daily commercial TV and radio programming, all funded by corporate sponsors who want to push the corporate agenda. People are trained like parrots in cages by that corporate-sponsored media, and they are programmed into unthinking conformity by it.

I am not. Because I don't watch it or listen to it. Period.

If people want to free themselves and use their own minds and come to their own intelligent conclusions, they must stop being passive receivers of mass media daily propaganda as delivered on corporate-owned network news.

***

Bobert - I think there are some genuine progressives in the Democratic Party, and they probably pushed for health care reform out of genuine idealism...and because it's simply insane NOT to reform your health care system! Then there are the opportunists who thought "This will sound wonderful to our supporters and get us many votes, but we'll have to shape it the way our lobbyist pals in the private health insurance industry want it so they can get richer and we can continue getting their funding."

Unfortunately, the opportunists got their way and you did not get what you should have: a single payer government-administered health care plan such as exists in Canada, Japan, and western Europe.

I don't know which camp Obama is in. He may be one of the genuine idealists or he may be an opportunist. I just don't know. I do know he's a very bright man and a superb orator who makes a great impression when he speaks. I've been very impressed by some of his speeches...but not so impressed by his actual policies as carried out. I don't know if it's that he can't do what he wants to...quite possible...or that he never had any real intention of doing what he said he would do. It could be one. It could be the other. It could even be a combination of the two.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:01 PM

LH,

" do know he's a very bright man and a superb orator who makes a great impression when he speaks. I've been very impressed by some of his speeches...but not so impressed by his actual policies as carried out."

I agree with you on these comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:07 PM

If that is the case LH, if you are not consuming the same media as me then what I said does not apply to you then does it?

I am happy that you have found for yourself a superior way of gathering information. Something that makes you so smug must be completely flawless. But it does piss me off a little to be called "brainwashed" even by someone so obviously well informed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM

Jack, you need to study how to talk with other people without quickly getting angry, personal, and confrontational while you do it...because that inevitably poisons the discussion.

Nobody's method of gathering information is "perfect". We each try as best we can, and we are not perfect. I think that a person in Nazi Germany would have done better at getting a real understanding of events in 1940 by listening NOT JUST to the official German home broadcast media, but also to many independent voices, to the BBC, to America, to Switzerland, and to anyone else he could tune into. Don't you think so?

That was my point. You cannot trust the ruling mass media in the USA to give you an honest picture, because they are deeply influenced by their funding sources...their owners...their sponsors. And their owners are extremely few, and very centralized...like they were in Nazi Germany.

I am not smug, Jack, I am impassioned...and I am independent, and I recognize the face of fascism when I see it.

I am not calling you "brainwashed" and there is no sense in you taking it personally. I don't know where you get your info, and I have no basis for judging you on an individual basis. I was speaking generally about what I see happening in mass society in North America...I was not speaking about you as an individual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:18 PM

Germany does not have single payer. They have highly regulated private insurers. That is the model that US health reform has as its goals.

There is more than one way to efficiently manage health care for a nation.

And if you think that Obama did not try to get the best outcome FOR the people that he could, given what he had to work with, you are not as well informed as you think AND you did not count the votes in the Senate. Hint: Lieberman, independent "Democrat" from insurance state Connecticut killed the public option and several other Democratic Senators made single payer a non-starter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:27 PM

LH,

You need to think about it for a second before you take comment about calling others brainwashed as personal affront. Because calling an opponent in an argument "brainwashed", is angry and confrontational.

Do not pretend to be above the fray as you ally yourself and suck up to a person who is angry and confrontational in nearly every post.

If you are not calling people "brainwashed" why are you answering the question below...

"How come there are people, subjected to exactly the same society and media who see other people as being brainwashed but not themselves?"

with "Because,"


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:54 PM

Chris B, winning an election does not a "mandate" make.

First off, when almost half of the voters preferred someone else, you clearly don't have overwhelming popular support.   Even if you get 60% of the vote, that's only considered a "landslide" because it's such a rare occurrence in US politics. You still have 40% of the voters who preferred someone else.

Secondly, you can't tell from the mere vote totals why people voted the way they do. There are "single-issue" voters, who will back a candidate they agree with on ONLY that one issue (e.g, gun rights, anti-abortion legislation).    A candidate, such as Obama, can lose support because: a) people prefer more "conservative" policies, b) people prefer more "liberal" policies, or c) they have been misled about the candidate's policies, platform, accomplishments, etc.

If you want to know what "message" the people are sending, do some good, non-partisan, scientific opinion research.   INFORM them, insofar as that's possible, about what the various legislation would and would not do and then ASK them, not just whether they approve or disapprove, but WHY.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:06 PM

" winning an election does not a "mandate" make.

First off, when almost half of the voters preferred someone else, you clearly don't have overwhelming popular support.   Even if you get 60% of the vote, that's only considered a "landslide" because it's such a rare occurrence in US politics. You still have 40% of the voters who preferred someone else.

"


And this applies ONLY when a conservative wins, right? We can't allow any question as to whether Obama had a Mandate, can we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:11 PM

Jack, if I say that I was not referring to you personally as an individual, I say it because I mean it. I was speaking about a general situation I see in society that affects many people, but I was not singling out you or anyone else here as an individual. I am not "above the fray" because I care about the issues, I am simply not attacking you on a personal basis, and that is all.

You don't need to defend yourself against me, because I'm not out to get you. I am discussing general issues which affect millions of people, not picking on you personally. I'm suggesting that you shouldn't take what I say about American society personally, because my political comments are not aimed at characterizing you as "brainwashed" or anything else like that. I just think you're often oversensitive to disagreement, quick to take offense, and you get angry on the spur of the moment and take things very personally when they aren't necessarily meant that way at all.

I think you would agree that there are a substantial number of people who are brainwashed by the mass media, right? Well, that's the problem I'm talking about.

As for GfS, I'm not responsible for what he or she says or doesn't say, but I like a lot of it, that's all. I'm not "sucking up" to GfS, I genuinely am impressed by his or her independent view of things, and I express enthusiasm when I like someone else's ideas. I may not like all of it. (shrug) But so what? I don't have to like all of it. I don't expect perfection from anyone...


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:24 PM

>>>I think you would agree that there are a substantial number of people who are brainwashed by the mass media, right? <<<

No I wouldn't, I don't think so at all. In fact, quite the opposite. In today's media market people tend to choose media that reinforces existing views.

On the other hand, if what you were saying about brainwashing etc was not to counter what in answer to what I said, why did you answer it as if it were?


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:43 PM

On the other hand, if what you were saying about brainwashing etc was not to counter to and in answer to what I said, why did you answer it as if it were?


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM

Okay, fine, so we don't agree that "there are a substantial number of people who are brainwashed by the mass media". I'm very surprised you wouldn't think there are! I think it's plainly obvious...but okay. We apparently see that differently.

"if what you were saying about brainwashing etc was not to counter what in answer to what I said, why did you answer it as if it were?"

I was taking what you said in a very general sense as it applies to all of society, Jack, not taking it in a personal sense as it applies to you. I find it an interesting subject to discuss in a general sense, but I don't have any basis for knowing how it would apply to you personally.

Keep in mind that I am typing here and putting words down at a great rate and expressing myself as best I can at any given moment. I may not succeed in always wording everything perfectly in a way that would totally convince you that I'm not out to criticize and denigrate you personally...but that's because I'm not perfect! ;-) Nevertheless, if I tell you NOW in plain language that I was most definitely NOT asserting that you personally are brainwashed, stupid, or anything else pejorative like that, then I mean it. I am simply discussing broad societal issues that affect millions of people, I am not discussing the character faults of Jack the Sailor...except in one respect: I think you often jump to taking personal offense more quickly than the situation usually warrants, often when no such offense was intended...and that leads the whole discussion down a blind alley that helps neither you nor I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:07 PM

""got 53% of the vote a couple years ago. 20-30% probably wouldn't vote for Obama if you paid them, but there are plenty who vote for principles and competence.""

Mebbe so Bill, but how many who vote for principles and competence also vote Republican???.......Very few apparently, given the events of the last eighteen months.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:21 PM

That doesn't mean, Don, that there aren't millions of Republicans out there who imagine that they are voting for principles and competence. I mean, hell....just ASK them! ;-D

Every political group in existence imagines they are voting for principles and competence. It's a standard assumption of the human mind, no matter what side of a partisan issue people are on. Everyone imagines he's voting for "the good guys", the principled, and the competent.

To put it another way, everyone looks through glasses tinted by their own cultural perceptions which they've garnered from birth till now, and their own perceptions alter how they see the situation. This is true of you, me, and everyone else on the face of the Earth. Never assume that you or your group stands alone in having a conscious sense of righteousness or in appreciating principles and competence.

Do I think the Republican party is a bastion of principles and competence? Ahh.....nope! I sure don't. But then, I don't think the Democratic Party is principled or competent either. ;-D Which one would I dare walk down a dark alley with? Well....I think I would try and avoid that situation altogether if I could find any possible way to. If I was forced to walk down that alley with a gun at my back, I'd say a quick prayer to the great loom of creation and Mother Nature and I'd walk with the Democrats...usually. Maybe not always, though. I have not forgotten Lyndon Johnson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:23 PM

Well I will go back to us Independents ... My party can beat up your party doesn't wash anymore. Too many of us are results oriented and will vote based on performance. Apparently I wasn't one of the main Independents cause my guys lost big LOL... but that seems to be what most are saying and I do accept it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:25 PM

""Seems to me we're not the only country to turn the reins over to the Consevatives this year.""

Well, anonymous guest, I wouldn't set too much store by that, since US conservatives have very little in common with UK Conservatives.

It was, in fact, New Labour which, in the person of one Tony B Liar, was arse licking your recent microcephallic (penicephallic?) President, and supporting your conservatives to the point of lying to our Parliament and people, just as Geedumbya lied to yours.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:29 PM

""And if anybody could do a worse job building cars than us, its definitely you Brits.""

At least ours can get round corners without turning upside down EJ.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:30 PM

Brainwashed???

Sheet fire... Boss Hog spends at least a million dollars a day trying to brainwash the citizens of the United States... And it ain't all in TV ads but in his bogus think tanks and his bogus *Americans for Mom and Apple Pie* organizations and his ownership of all media and, and, and... And a million a day is probably well on the low side...

So, hey, there is plenty of propaganda being thrown at US and lots of it is real tricky... I mean, down in Harrisonburg, Va. Boss Hog bought several 40 foot trailers and put them next to the interstate lettered up with "Vote All Incumbents OUT!!!" which mean, of course, a Repub victory... But those trailers were probably well received by anyone thinking that things aren't going well and lots of people did just that... They voted against incumbents and guess what???

So let's get real here on "brainwashing"... The entire "Well, both parties are the same" is as Republican as a Republican brainwashing trick that has ever been devised... Yeah, you go back 8 years ago and that dog could hunt but that dog died... Heck, if it were still coming out of the Green Party I'd have to give it a test ride but in the last two years we've been hearing it from folks who got it right outta the Republican think tanks...

But my hat's off to the Repubs 'cause they have pulled it off on folks who I thought were "free thinkers"... Guess not...

I mean, I asked the question about who pushed the Dems into health care reform for this very reason... No one did... No Boss Hog involvement at all... That says to me that there is a difference between the two parties... At least for now...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:33 PM

Brazil, I am happy to say, just voted in a populist woman who used to be a leftist revolutionary fighting against a Brazilian military dictatorship. She was imprisoned and tortured by that government. Now she is the chief executive.

Brazilian election results


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:38 PM

Bruce,
I never claimed Obama had a mandate either, much less that he won in a "landslide."

What told me that the Bush administration was extremely unpopular during most of Dubya's second term was that opinion polls pretty consistently showed GWB's favorabiility rating to be under 30% and Cheney's often even under 20%.   
Now the media talking heads spin it as Obama being very unpopular when his approval rating drops into the mid- to low 40% range (even while the Republican Party's ratings are lower).


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

Hawk, Don, there are plenty of people who vote for Republicans, believing they are voting for "principles and competence." But many of them -- some of my own friends and family who are caring, responsible, generous people -- get pretty much all their "information" from Fox News (and some even from sources like Rush Limbaugh).    In addition to the right-wing opinion slant, they are also fed a lot of misinformation and disinformation and not exposed to other sources like the (shudder! "socialist-leaning" New York Times or network news) to counter that.

One group that is especially captive to this is residents of nursing and convalescent homes and some assisted living residences as well.   The vast majority of the time, the TVs in the communal areas are set to Fox News Channel, and even the TVs in the individual rooms may be set there (though the resident could theoretically change the channel if they were assertive enough).   Decisions like that are basically made by the owners and maybe sometimes the staff.   But these folks DO vote, with the assistance of the owners and staff and sometimes outside groups (which could be the League of Women Voters or could be a church group).

And as I've said before, many people have no access whatsoever to liberal-leaning talk radio programs and very limited access to "neutral" news shows either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:54 PM

Yeah, an another thing that really pisses me off is that every, I mean EVERY last motel in the country that has a Continental breakfast, also has a TV with Fox so-called news on it!!!

That is what I call corporate brainwashing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:19 PM

"...but how many who vote for principles and competence also vote Republican?"

Don, there are some...but I'm afraid that many Republicans define "principles and competence" from a different perspective than I...and many Democrats would. A complete exposition of that bold assertion would require quite a long post, but I mean basically that all-too-many conservatives/Republicans begin with a set of 'beliefs', often exemplified by chanted slogans.."no more taxes"-"get the government off our backs"-"stop illegal immigration"-"leave my guns alone"-"stop regulation and let businesses create jobs"-"progressive=fascism"...etc...etc...
   Now, when they many of them are asked to explain 'principles', you get one or more pre-digested slogans which they may or may not understand in the larger context of society....but which they defend as best they can manage as "givens" and not subject to discussion.
   This sort of attitude is much easier to defend and 'run with' than one which allows compromise, re-evaluates issues as circumstances change and tries to see ALL sides of a matter before pronouncing judgment based on....slogans.
Much of the attitudes I refer to are shown in being 'against' stuff, rather than offering detailed plans for reasonable progress. "We don't want to be told what to do...by anyone..especially government!" That attitude often leads to the fingers-in-the-ears "lalalalala" technique of 'discussion', and often to the "so's your Mother" form of reply. Yes, it is phrased a bit better than that, but if you insist on clarity, that's essentially what you often get.

So... are there Republicans who vote "principles and competence"? Sure....and there used to be more of them, but boy, it's hard to get the reasonable ones to stick their noses out these days. Oh, really? Yep
(note: about half... 24... of the more conservative Democrats (blue dogs) were defeated in this election, while only 4 of the 'progressives' lost. Folks were not happy with ANYONE with Democrat by their name...they wanted FARTHER right representatives, based on slogans and distortion.)

I have no idea how this works in the UK, but what little I see of Parliament leads me to believe that many members at least understand their party's positions instead of just shouting slogans..


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:23 PM

And while I typed, Genie & Bobert hit MORE nails on the head! If you hear nothing but Fox News, those 'slogans' are hammered into your head in 27 formats!


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:42 PM

(I just saw Mitch McConnell state clearly that "if the Democrats want cooperation, they're going to have to move in OUR direction."

See? Compromise and bipartisan MEANS "do it our way". OUR principles are fine to ignore

......righteous crap!


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:02 PM

Righto, Bill... Our population, sad to say, has been so dumbed down that once you get them beyond the bumper sticker position they are totally lost...

But here's the kicker... We are slowly but surely loosing our competitiveness because we have so dumbed down the population... That is great if yer Boss Hog living in the here-'n-now but what about Boss Hog's grandchildren??? Does Boss Hog want them living in a 3rd world country??? Well, I guess he doesn't care one way or another as long as he got his...

But really, the dilemma for the right is get our population better educated so it can compete but that means that alot more people are going to figure out Boss Hog's pea-under-the-shell game... Hmmmmm???? Oh, what to do???

Well, my guess is that Boss Hog is perfectly willing to let the country slip into 3rd world status as long as he is comfy in the here-and-now... This isn't an exaggeration... Wages for the working class have been stagnant for going on 4 decades now... Poverty rates on their way back up... Foreclosures at an all time high...

I mean, I hate to say it but Boss Hog is as evil as person as evil can be... He hates his own grandkids... He hates our country... He is so filled with hate that it is amazing that hate doesn't just kill him...

I mean, me thinks that Rodney King had more wisdom than the entire universe of Boss Hog's... I mean, just gettin' along involves carin' for one another and sharin' with one another... Boss Hog don't get this... It's like a square peg and round hole... Worse yet is that he is so miserable that he uses lots of his money brainwashing people into voting against their own self interests so they can be miserable, too...

Beam me up, Scotty... Me thinks that history is getting ready to repeat itself...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:07 PM

Many of the real "Boss Hoggs" actually do not care if the US implodes. They represent trans-national corporations, with no need for loyalty to any country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:31 PM

Yes, that's right, Genie. They are only loyal to the bottom line. Also, they can live wherever they want to, because they have the money to do that, and most people have no idea who they even are or where they live. Thus does the invisible government rule. The politicians are the temporary and replaceable public "faces" the public focuses on, in the naive belief that the politicians are the people in charge. They're not. They are just the gophers for the people in charge.

A particularly naive belief, but a treasured one, is that if a really nice and excellent person can be elected president, everything will magically be made right! This is what I call "believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny".

My impression of Obama is that he's probably a pretty nice guy, as well as being very bright. He may also be quite idealistic. He is probably very well-intentioned. (I think Bush was well-intentioned by the way...strictly according to his own very limited view of the situation, and his view derived from his entire upbringing...).

Well, good intentions won't do it, because the deck is stacked. Being nice won't do it. Being smart won't do it. Being idealistic won't do it. If a president takes it too far in resisting the entrenched financial powers that be, they will destroy him...either at the polls...or in a much more personal way. They will not stop at killing him. He will not be allowed to change the status quo beyond a certain very limited point, and the status quo is based upon maintaining the world's most enormous military expenditures and occupying foreign lands with American forces and practicing imperialism. It's also based on perpetual war (at some level). It's also based on a perpetual illegal drug trade achieved simply by MAKING various drugs illegal, AND a simultaneous war that is waged on that drug trade.

All these things are damaging and counterproductive, but they make huge profits for a few people who are among the top elite, so they continue.

Genie, you are quite right about how people are programmed by Fox to believe certain things. They are programmed by CNN to believe certain things too, but somewhat different things. They are programmed by all the networks...and further to that...they are programmed to fight amongst themselves as some are convinced they are "liberals" and some are convinced they are "conservatives"...labels which will forever divide them and provoke conflict. All the mass media outlets are partly to blame for that situation. Fox is probably the worst of them, but not alone in creating the terrible disunity and dissension in the USA. They all promote disunity constantly. They thrive upon it. It makes for good "news", and that pulls in viewers, and that pleases the sponsors.

If people stopped tuning in, I mean if MILLIONS of people stopped tuning in, their little profit-driven propaganda game would be over, and their mass media outlets would collapse. I don't tune in to the mass broadcast media. I read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Janie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 10:41 PM

Interesting that this thread has run to 182 posts so far, while Stilly's Lessig thread only garnered 10 responses.

The Lessig lecture is more germaine, in my very humble opinion, to this election in particular, and politics in the USA in general, than anything I have heard, read, or seen thus far. But that is only my opinion, just as biased, I am sure as is anyone else's.

The video is NOT about childhood obesity, btw. It strikes me as a quite cogent and non-partisan comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 11:16 PM

The video is NOT about childhood obesity, btw.

No, but the BS about the corn syrup kind of taints the rest.

Not that I am a fan of corn syrup or subsidies. But if you eat too many calories and exercise too little you are going to get fat, whether the calories come from corn syrup or sugar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Janie
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 12:05 AM

Not the most effective "hook,", I agree. Still, some significant points to ponder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:31 AM

Bill D.: So your view is, when the Democrats are in power, the Republicans should bend to their view (that's compromise, right?), but when the Republicans are in power, the Republicans are expected to bend to the Democrat's view? I don't think so.

JTS: The Democrats took one of the largest drubbings iin political history because they tried to pass legislation that was abohorant to the majority of the voters. Simple as that.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 10:29 AM

You don't think so, Douggie?

You're hallf right- you don'think, period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:07 PM

BillD,

"See? Compromise and bipartisan MEANS "do it our way"."

I guess the Republicans are using THE SAME STANDARDS that the Democrats did the last two years in Congress. I note NO effort to complain when the Democrats acted the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:15 PM

You should probably watch the entire Lessig video, Jack. It's about a great deal more than corn syrup, and it describes the USA's governmental problem perfectly. It will only take 18 minutues of your life to watch the whole video.

(I am not attacking YOU personally in making this post, Jack. Okay? I'm discussing an interesting video that Stilly linked to, and suggesting it's worth watching. That's my concern. I would like as many people to watch that video as possibly can. That video explains exactly why and how your goverment is NOT representing the people any longer, but is representing its primary funding sources who are most definitely NOT "the people"...they are a consortium of major corporations and major banks who have common interests: dergegulation, maintenance of tariffs, maintenance of subsidies to certain agricultural and other industries, maximization of their profits, control of ongoing legislation in Congress. You have "the best government money can buy", regardless of who is put in office.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:20 PM

TOday's headlines are all on about how the growth in employment is faster than expected.

Go figger.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 01:55 PM

"...because they tried to pass legislation that was abohorant to the majority of the voters. Simple as that.

And THAT is total nonsense. You mistake what the "majority of the voters" wanted or cared about for the distortions and outright lies they were FED by Fox 'News' and right-wing scare tactics-- "death panels" "Fascists" "Birthers" "More taxes".etc. ad nauseum

The REAL polls during and right after the health care debate showed that the MAJORITY wanted MORE health care and the "public option". Once the Republicans got the whole bill watered down, and then refused to vote for their own paltry, watered down version, they quoted the polls that showed most voters were not happy with the bill **as passed**. This does NOT indicate they didn't want "Obamacare", but that they didn't see many real benefits.

Great political tactics by the Republicans, but sleazy treatment of the public! They flat **LIED** about what effect health care legislation would have on the budget in order to keep their HMO organization contributors happy!
I can deal with simple disagreements about how things work and the best procedures...etc...but I DESPISE conscious lies & distortions for political and monetary gain by 'the powers that be'.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce- "I guess the Republicans are using THE SAME STANDARDS that the Democrats did the last two years in Congress. I note NO effort to complain when the Democrats acted the same.

Do you really have NO other argument form? And there is simply NO comparison of the two parties legislative tactics....so far! The Democrats did NOT refuse to compromise and did NOT lie about the other side's positions....but perhaps they should have, seeing how it works! ...nawwww...they wouldn't have been good at it. Real deceit and believing IN your own deceit as a standard procedure take practice & commitment....and leadership from the Karl Roves and Glen Becks and Newt Gingrichs...all funneled thru a 'fair & balanced' "news" organization.

What I hope is that my party, win or lose, does NOT stray into really obnoxious lies and scams, but DOES make fair but clever use of the rules, as they did with health care. (G.W. just used signing statements and interim appointments of judges...etc..to cram thru anything he (or maybe Cheney) wanted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:27 PM

You should probably watch the entire Lessig video, Jack. It's about a great deal more than corn syrup, and it describes the USA's governmental problem perfectly. It will only take 18 minutues of your life to watch the whole video.

Hawk, you are coming across as more and more smug and preachy. In fact I did watch the whole video. After the first 5 minutes of poorly presented BS, I watched the remaining 13 minutes out of respect for Kat and Janie and others who said it was important. My feedback to Lessig, if he were to ask for it would be, "The next time you give the lecture, leave out the BS, because the BS make you look, put politely, less than learned."

Please note Little Hawk that I did not ask for a lecture from you about how I should spend "18 minutues of" my life. I feel that I am very capable of deciding that for myself. On the other hand if you have any opinions on the merits of specific points of the talk I would be happy to discuss them with you as an equal as I tried to do with the point about the corn syrup.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:29 PM

Bruce is just lying until something sticks. Doug may actually be in the dark.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:41 PM

JtS,

If you insist on call9ing ME a liar, then please specify the lie and the supporting facts from some respectable source- YOU do not qualify as respectable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:43 PM

>>>BillD,

"See? Compromise and bipartisan MEANS "do it our way"."

I guess the Republicans are using THE SAME STANDARDS that the Democrats did the last two years in Congress. I note NO effort to complain when the Democrats acted the same. <<<


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:46 PM

Sorry, Jack

That was true- and YOU present no indication of ANY evidence to the contrary-

So you may apologize to me for you being such a shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 02:49 PM

Okay, you watched the whole thing, Jack. Great. ;-) What points did you like in it, and which did you not like? I found nothing to object to in the entire video, and it dovetails with a lot of other stuff I've been reading. I think the point about the corn syrup is absolutely correct and pertinent. Have you seen "Food Inc."? If so, what did you think of it? And how about "Capitalism - A Love Story"?

"Please note Little Hawk that I did not ask for a lecture from you..."

Jack, if I waited for other people to ask, I would probably wait for an eternity and never get to say anything at all here on this forum. I talk here for the same reason you or anyone else does...simply because I enjoy expressing myself and voicing my thoughts. It gives me something to do in what is obviously...free time! As usual, you are responding to what I say in very ill humour, taking some sort of personal offense from it, assuming I'm sneering at you or putting you down in some way, and I can only ....shrug....

I am not here to fight with you about your ruffled feelings. I am not your enemy in any way. I'm simply here to discuss politics. You'll note that I treat DougR decently, even though I disagree with virtually EVERYTHING he says and believes. I treat him decently because he's human.

You have a choice in front of you, Jack. You can choose to be friendly and constructive and not take personal offense all the time with anyone who disagrees with you on any tiniest point... or you can choose to fight with people. I choose to be friendly and constructive. It requires a lot less energy expenditure and it keeps me from ruining my own state of mind and alienating people.

There are two people on this thread who habitually fight with other posters, flare up over stuff, and get really sarcastic and nasty and insulting with anyone who disagrees with them about anything. They clearly come here mainly to vent their anger.

I'm not one of them, Jack. I won't name who they are, but think about it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:06 PM

Little Hawk, I have found none of your recent comments to me, including this most recent lecture, to be friendly or constructive.

YOU have a choice, continue to behave as you have been, and have me call you on it. Or stop lecturing people and stick to the topic.

I don't care either way. I am not going to change my behavior.

And by the way the point he makes about corn syrup is indeed BS, I did watch Food Inc. Twice! Thank you very much. I have been concerned about corn subsidies ever since I became a US tax payer 12 years ago. I even spoke to you in person about my complaints about them, when discussing Carol's corn allergies, about 8 years ago, about what 6 years before food inc was released? That is one of the reasons I find this new attitude of yours a little off putting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: pdq
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:29 PM

"You have a choice in front of you, Jack. You can choose to be friendly and constructive and not take personal offense all the time with anyone who disagrees with you on any tiniest point... or you can choose to fight with people." ~ Birdfeathers

Many other people need to take that statement to heart too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Disaster for the Democrats?
From: olddude
Date: 05 Nov 10 - 03:39 PM

For me here is the bottom line (good or bad) the bullshit bickering between the parties has left main street in shambles. I don't know how it is where anyone else lives, but in my small town people who have worked their entire life are at risk of losing their homes. I see wall street and the bankers doing really good, along with corporations like Halliburton ... so now there are some new folks elected fine with me. I wait to see something positive to happen, it is going to take a lot more than talk. Jump in the water is fine because me and most independent guys are going to look for some results and hold anyone accountable that doesn't do it.


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