BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Brian May
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:05 AM

I bet his kids have seen Bambi.

I wonder how he'll explain that one away . . .

Bastard
(and I spent quite a few years with a rifle and even more with a pistol - but I wouldn't shoot any animal I couldn't eat unless it was causing damage or terrorising sheep et al)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:22 AM

I didn't know about this until reading this thread and it is sickening. What gives anyone the right to shoot a living creature just because it's teeth aren't so good because of maturing years. If this happened to people across the country there would be an outcry.

Something similar happened quite a few years back in the West Country this was a unique beautiful albino stag shot by some idiotic vandal for fun. It was so rare to get a glimpse of this lovely animal but unfortunately this ******** spotted it and that was the end of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM

Nice to know that Patsy is prepared to pay for orthodontic work on an elderly stag!
People and animals are different. For good or ill, we eat animals; we don't eat people.
We have also changed the natural habitats in the UK so dramatically that we need to intervene because nature can no longer take her course. Well, she could, of course, but then there would be cries of outrage from people who came across animals that had starved to death, or where populations had grown to migration levels and the M5 was littered with maimed deer, crashed cars and orphaned children.
We already have as many as 74,000 accidents involving deer annually in the UK with the current population controls.

Anyone who drinks milk, eats eggs, wears wool or leather or who eats meat is complicit in far greater exploitation of animals, but because they are at one remove from the dirty deed, that's OK. I just wish the same level of outrage could be stoked against battery and intensive farming, but I'm willing to bet that a good number of those bleating on this thread are happy to buy their meat, milk and eggs from Tesco's, Asda and Sainsbury's, wear wool and have leather belts and shoes. If you're strict vegan, fine, but if you tuck into your eggs and bacon or stuff your face with a burger from the stall at the festival, you're really rather missing the point.
Me? I'm happy to eat the produce of my own chickens, sheep and pigs. I also shoot wild game and fish for salmon and trout and will barter venison from a stalker friend of mine. I know they've all had a decent, non-intensive existence and I can happily eat them with a clean conscience. As for the rest of you, however...
But hypocrisy always was such a quintessentially English trait.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:20 PM

"What gives anyone the right to shoot a living creature just because it's teeth aren't so good because of maturing years. If this happened to people across the country there would be an outcry."

Really? The NHS would cost less (only healthy people bimbling about) and there would be no problems getting an NHS Dentist as people would have incentive to look after their teeth.

As for the "Emperor" maybe his time had just come, but as no "body" has been found or reported then who is to say that the "Emperor" is actually dead (Nobody saw him shot, only that a shot was heard).

It is also extremely damaging to have one stag dominant for too long. The UK's gun laws and hunting laws have resulted in the largest animal native to these shores being all but classified as vermin in Scotland with deer populations being out of control although I think the severity of last winter has naturally thinned the herds out. In culls it is normally the hinds that are shot. A couple of years ago on Sunday nights the Grampian Police used to shut down sections of the A9 and A96 to shoot Red Deer close to the road as they were a danger to traffic.

When you hunt with a Stalker he will tell you which animal to shoot and when.

"I have spent two separate weeks in Exmoor, criss crossed it time and again looking for deer and in that time saw just one. The place is not overrun with them.

Just because you didn't see them does not mean that they are not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

Gervase - How many of the people you denigrate have sheeps heads, chickens heads or pigs heads mounted on pieces of wood and stuck on their walls?

Teribus - I believe they are there, my point is that in square mile after square mile of specifically looking for them across the whole of the moor with views of the moorland that stretch to the horizon, in two weeks of looking I saw one deer. However I couldn't begin to count the number of people I saw in this thinly populated part of the country

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:13 PM

I've got a ram's skull on the top of a bookcase - does that count? And I've seen plenty of sheepskin rugs in my time.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:17 PM

You couldn't have a chicken's head on the wall.

That would be fowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

Gervase - unless you are one of the people you denigrate, it doesn't count

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM

This is not about eating meat or using hides to make clothes, it is about killing one particular magnificent animal. I guarantee his meat will be tougher than a woodpecker's beak.
Can we please stick to the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:33 PM

Only our ignorance could put such anthropomorphic 'values' on this death as it deserved to die because of breeding with it's daughters. Inbreeding among many animals is common. It's often also useless as any offspring may be sterile and, if successful, and favoured by natural selection , then inbreeding can flourish in some species as the best survival strategy. In our past evolutionary history - long before human laws were made - incest would have been rife among Homo-type populations.

In many animals though inbreeding occurs because the animals are being kept in a closer contact with each other than they would in truly wild conditions. Inbreeding is a result of confinement rather than the default setting fo that animal. In other words, if we are to invoke incest laws on this beast, then we have to likely blame the humans who keep the herd all close together and not in wholly natural conditions of that animals evolution.

If we are to keep animls in such confines then I guess we owe it to them to manage the herd well and kill off the ones who are weak, ill, injured or dying. In such circumstances I suppose we take the role of the prey animals that we killed off long ago that would usually prey on such beasts.

My heart feels wholly against what they did to this magnificent animal. He earned his place naturally and the whole idea of ruts and lekking is nature's invention. He was doing no wrong.

If human arrogance is to start judging animals by human laws then we really do need to start giving animals human rights! We owe it to them to give them some rights anyway, on account of our so called domain over them, but judging them and executing them on human traits seems more than a tad wrong

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 04:59 PM

Giving human rights to animals?

Well, that's it. That really takes the cake. That stag matters more than your own child? Good luck with that concept.

As far as labelling this as killing for sport or all the other stuff, especially the mounting of chicken heads as trophies... good lord, come on.

Kendall... "tree huggers"... "simple minded"? Yup, that's me. So simple that I know that the outrage of tree huggers is often unfounded, counterproductive, superficial and just naive. Not all the time, but more often than not.

As far as the meat from that old bugger being tough... not necessarily... especially if he was shot before the rut. But, that would be sommat that someone who has knowledge of farm or wildlife management would know.

You tree huggers stay warm and fed. BUT, don't eat any meat and DON'T CUT ANY TREES DOWN EH? I hear the Big Bad Wolf is selling sticks and hay for building houses and is offering discounts for those who qualify, so you should be fine for shelter. Dunno what you'll use to cook with... oh, right... you don't cook.. you eat yer sprouts raw... yer "green".

What a load.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:42 PM

"An extremely rare white deer discovered in the Scottish lowlands has become subject of a bidding war between hunters wanting to kill it."

"The white-coated roebuck, which experts say is not an albino, is so unusual that only a handful have been seen in Britain since the end of the Second World War.

Kevin Stuart, who has the stalking rights to the 3,000-acre estate where the wild deer lives, hopes to get up to £6,000, four times the norm, from a trophy-seeking client when the hunting season opens in three weeks."

News article March last year

not for herd management
not for food
not 'cos it's dangerous in any way
but..... it's a rare genetic throwback; historically very uncommon
so just 'cos you want the 'trophy' and you can pay enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 05:58 PM

"Kevin Stuart, who has the stalking rights to the 3,000-acre estate where the wild deer lives, hopes to get up to £6,000, four times the norm, from a trophy-seeking client when the hunting season opens in three weeks."

There must be a million people in the British Isles that have enough money to beat that price and not kill the animal. Take it to a game preserve or huge private estate where it will not be shot.

It seems odd that there was no federal game management personel around to protect the huge buck at Exmoor. Perhaps your government should stop spending itself into bankruptcy on social engineering programs and get back to basics like national defence, infrastructure building and public lands management.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:00 PM

"Giving human rights to animals?

Well, that's it. That really takes the cake. That stag matters more than your own child? Good luck with that concept."

That was not what I said or intimated gnu though is it? I said "If human arrogance is to start judging animals by human laws then we really do need to start giving animals human rights!". The point being we cannot hold animals responsible to the same laws that we come under and have made. They are man's laws, not natures.

Who said anything about our own cildren anyway> I certainly stayed on topic about the deer.

with regards

np

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:04 PM

"Curiouser and Curiouser" said Bambi...for some think The Emperor is wearing new clothes..

Was that a Deer, dear?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:29 PM

"It seems odd that there was no federal game management personel around to protect the huge buck at Exmoor. Perhaps your government should stop spending itself into bankruptcy on social engineering programs and get back to basics like national defence, infrastructure building and public lands management."

pdq -

As I said in my post of Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:13 PM

"The UK system of land ownership and game laws means that landowners have free rein to kill permitted species on their own land – or sell those right to others!"

From the Exmoor National Park site

"National Parks are part of a 'family' of protected areas in Britain. They are protected because the inspiration of their scenery and opportunities they provide for outdoor recreation are seen as being of benefit to the nation.

However, the term 'National Park' does not mean that such an area belongs to the nation.
Much of their funding comes from central government but they are not run or owned by government.

Like other large areas of countryside, they are made up of a large number of properties belonging to a variety of landowners.

In common with other areas of open countryside, much land belongs to large estates in private or public ownership, with private ownership being in the majority."

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM

Rules are made by the government and if they are cumbersome and unworkeable, change them.

There is no excuse for this animal not receiving effective government protection.

Also, there is no reason to blame its death on proper sportsmen since nobody knows who killed it.

Perhaps it is now in Saudi Arabia or UAE? I recall a member of the Saudi royal family offering $75,000 per Peragrine falcon. He had dozens, all poached from the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM

Good news if it's true Lizzie, but you can't believe everything you hear....

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:51 PM

A cunning plan - but let down by the fact that It would be rather challenging to smuggle a stag out through Heathrow in your underpants. It's the antlers, you see. Tricky things, antlers.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:58 PM

never heatd of antler luggage then.....?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:59 PM

LOL Al - welcome back

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:39 PM

We just can't stay on the subject, can we?

Gnu, exactly what the hell is a tree hugger anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:50 PM

"That was not what I said or intimated gnu though is it?"

Not really. But that is my take. When someone thinks that another person should protect an aged stag that is fouling the herd rather than culling it at the highest price offered (as farmers do EVERY DAY) then that seems to me that you are making a decision for that person that you have no right to do... perhaps that person is putting food on the table for THEIR child?

Add it up. It goes on here in the back woods of New Brunswick, Canada EVERY DAY. You wanna save that stag, go for it. Otherwise, that is just meat on the table, one way or another.

That's what I REALLY don't get about the tree huggers. People in my neck of the woods are HUNGRY! What don't you understand about farm or game management and HUNGRY? How can you make your judgement call? It's majestic? It's cute? Sir Paul is cute and I'd club that twit in a minute if he didn't pass the seal flipper pie.

Dale, my bestest Good Ol Buddy Boy said it best... "I like to eat. You like to eat? Fuck the game wardens. I'm gonna eat." Then he pounded a large...

I'm with Dale on this one. And with Dale's kids. Fire up the hob and let's fry.... btw... I don't find that stag all that cuddly.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:53 PM

People who collect "sporting trophies" like this ought to be treated the same way as birds-egg collectors - the trophies confiscated, and the collectors subject to criminal sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM

Kendall... a tree hugger is someone who knows shit about trees but wants to save them from a fate they know nothing about.

I can cite an excellent example. Tree huggers had a ``sit in`` and blocked lumber operations from cutting old growth forest in The Christmas Mountains of New Brunswick a while back. Yuppie twits with a bit of knowledge but not enough.

We had a hurricane that felled over 6B cubic metres of that forest. Despite the rush of resources to clean up the mess and make the best of it, proper sylviculture would have done a much better job.

The species in danger that the tree huggers wanted to protect were not protected by mother nature. Proper sylviculture would have protected those species. But, ya can't argue with a tree hugger in a lawn chair on a lumber road with a cooler full of beer and the news media making a show out of it. Only thing more obtuse would be Sir Paul there with a seal trying to get more TV.

That`s a tree hugger. Someone who sighs when a stag or a seal or a chicken dies and wants to emote and sometimes, make money from it.

I don`t like death. Nobody LIKES death. But, logic and proper management falls to humans. Those that say the animals know better than us are... animals. Seriously... if you think inbreeding is all the rage... well... need I really say it...

Okay, just for fun then, go fuck yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:29 PM

What is this about ``trophie`s... I don`t understand when that was established. Maybe I missed sommat.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: DougR
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:20 AM

That is, indeed, a very sad story.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:02 AM

Latest news:

Emperor has been shot because he was gay!

He was last seen making love to Stag GerLee

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:55 AM

"..A cunning plan - but let down by the fact that It would be rather challenging to smuggle a stag out through Heathrow in your underpants. It's the antlers, you see. Tricky things, antlers..."


"Is that a passport in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?" said Mae, the Customs Officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:16 AM

Ah yes, tree huggers. Now I get it. That's what they call those people in California who want to save what is left of the old growth redwoods. The lumber companies have already taken 90% of it and now they want the rest, citing jobs!

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:35 PM

Emperor of Exmoor may not have been shot at all

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:41 PM

Damn, now we've got to reverse the outrage bus back into the garage.
On second thoughts, while th engine's running, let's use it to pop down to Tesco and pick up some of their 'two for a fiver' chickens and some value ham.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:07 PM

Well, that certainly spoils a good "Mad on"

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:10 PM

just because something didn't happen (although reported in numerous normally reliable sources) doesn't make it any better as an idea

As for Tesco, I haven't shopped there for anything at all since I saw their attitude to chicken rearing shown on an investigative tv programme

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

Nice to know that Patsy is prepared to pay for orthodontic work on an elderly stag!
People and animals are different. For good or ill, we eat animals; we don't eat people"
Today, the Korowai are one of very few tribes still believed to eat human flesh as a cultural practice. It is also still known to be practised as a ritual and in war in various Melanesian tribes.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:54 PM

"Today, the Korowai are one of very few tribes still believed to eat human flesh as a cultural practice."

Ooh, let's send 'em 20 years supply of Corporate Bastards to munch on!



Folks are slowing down a little...I posted the story about His Majesty possibly still wandering the Exmoor Hills, last night..umpteen posts above this...

'Devon Life' magazine - The Deer Edition

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:15 PM

gnu...hate to tell you this, but Trophy hunting has been around a LONG time. Meat? What meat? I just want to hang the head on my wall!



What point did you miss, there Bud?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:25 PM

Interesting, The Korowai have invited me to do a gig
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: gnu
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:28 PM

Scorch... the point that this was the only reason the stag may have been shot.

As for trophy hunting being around a long time... yeah... so what? Doesn't make it right. (I was taught to take everything back where the game was dropped after it was butchered... antlers, hide... and give it back. It was only proper and respectful.)

Ain't it obvious what I missed?

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:23 PM

Why is it showing respect to dump the offal, antlers, skin...?

Imagine you're an antelope and you come across your Dad's coat and antlers....it would be traumatic.

'dad! dad! get up! I promise not to say any more discouraging words, about the sky being cloudy all day!'

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 02:40 AM

Antlers and skin are left on the animal as these have a value and a use. Only the pluck and entrails are left, and foxes, badgers, crows, buzzards and kites usually make short work of these. In a few hours there's not much left of Uncle Dirk at the crime scene, and the youngsters go on their way heedless of the passing of an uncle/cousin/father/brother. Ungrateful little sods.

And, ah yes, the Korowai, bless their little befeathered toes. How could I forget them. Dammit, one pithy post from a pub quiz veteran and the whole thread unravels. It's a fair cop, GSS; The actions of one Melanesian tribe negate all the taboos and culture that have developed in the rest of the globe. Curse you and your anthropology!

On second thoughts, have a look at the original meaning of the phrase "the exception proves the rule". The clue is in the gunsmith's meaning of "proof".

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:02 AM

I always thought that there was something odd about this story. TV reports showing where the body was found but no shots of the body. "Probably killed for a trophy." It would have beeen obvious had there been a body as the trophy items would have been removed.
as they say "where's the venison?"

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:51 AM

perhaps its just gone for a stag weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:53 AM

Trophy hunters all suffer from testosterone poisoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:57 AM

someone might eat Prince Charles, THEN AL LEAST WE WOULD BE SPARED Prince Charles guitar picking.
http://www.mjra.net/WillFly/guitarist.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:38 PM

Stag Night at Lochcranza Isle of Arran

I love this picture, many versions of the same scene can be seen on local postcards but you are more likely to 'bag' one with a driver than a gun as they spend a lot of time on the local golf course probably constituting a natural hazard :)

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:07 PM

There was a guy in the states that made how to hunt videos on bow hunting. He was a supposed expert on bow hunting elk. In one of the video's he killed this incredible huge Elk from a tree stand. However it turned out that the Elk was on Yellowstone National Park. The Elk was well known and was not afraid of people, it use to walk up to them. The park service recognized the area he was hunting and the elk he killed fined the crap out of him. Me I think he should have done some jail time ... Sound pretty similar to your situation except some jerk had permission

Good grief

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:36 PM

Even worse is he still sold a ton of videos. So I am sure he could care less about the fine. They should have confiscated all the profits I think ... that would have been a lessen builder. My understand is one is not allowed to profit from an illegal act. So why wasn't that done maybe it was but the TV show didn't point that out only it was one of the best selling bow hunting videos.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: pdq
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

Sound pretty similar to your situation except some jerk had permission

The story about elk killed in Yellowstone sounds like a travesty and, if the guy was really convicted in a court of law, he should do some hard time and all proceeds from the video forfited.

Please note that the subject of this thread has not been shown to dead. No witnesses, no video, no body. The news media is intentionally hyping anger and hatred for the "privleged class", "gun owners" and "trophy hunters" because it suits the agenda.

I hope the animal is found to have wandered off to another estate. I also hope the government takes protecting wildlife more seriously in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Englands Biggest Stag Shot on Exmoor
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:23 PM

100 ?