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BS: Direct Action : UK

Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 11:07 AM
Arthur_itus 24 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 11:31 AM
Arthur_itus 24 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM
Rafflesbear 24 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM
pdq 24 Oct 10 - 11:39 AM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 10 - 12:02 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Oct 10 - 12:14 PM
mauvepink 24 Oct 10 - 12:25 PM
Arthur_itus 24 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Oct 10 - 12:38 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 12:43 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 24 Oct 10 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 24 Oct 10 - 12:46 PM
VirginiaTam 24 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 01:01 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 01:03 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 01:11 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 01:18 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM
Rafflesbear 24 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 24 Oct 10 - 02:37 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 02:45 PM
Emma B 24 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Oct 10 - 06:44 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Oct 10 - 08:06 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Oct 10 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 25 Oct 10 - 03:33 AM
theleveller 25 Oct 10 - 03:49 AM
Stu 25 Oct 10 - 04:03 AM
bubblyrat 25 Oct 10 - 06:52 AM
theleveller 25 Oct 10 - 07:02 AM
Emma B 25 Oct 10 - 07:37 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Oct 10 - 07:50 AM
theleveller 25 Oct 10 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Patsy 25 Oct 10 - 09:35 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 25 Oct 10 - 10:04 AM
theleveller 25 Oct 10 - 10:08 AM
Arthur_itus 25 Oct 10 - 11:08 AM
theleveller 25 Oct 10 - 11:57 AM
Arthur_itus 25 Oct 10 - 12:01 PM
Emma B 25 Oct 10 - 01:57 PM
VirginiaTam 25 Oct 10 - 02:55 PM
Richard Bridge 25 Oct 10 - 04:21 PM
akenaton 25 Oct 10 - 05:40 PM
VirginiaTam 26 Oct 10 - 02:57 AM
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Subject: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:07 AM

For those familiar with notion of 'Disaster Capitalism' as it is described by Naomi Klein, the current govts wave of policies won't be so shocking. This recession is arguably a prime opportunity to push through shed-loads of unpopular decisions that the public are as yet too phased to respond to with effective dissent, or indeed even appropriate questions.

Anyhow, rather than grumbling about it, here's a thread for suggestions on how those of us interested can begin to suggest options on how to mobilise dissenting action.

As an aside, it's a bummer this topic is too far outside the remit of FAF, as the organisation is already in place and arguably already pools many of those folkies & activists who would oppose much of what is currently happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

Crow Sister
"to mobilise dissenting action"

And what exactly does that mean, Voilence or peaceful lobbying?


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:31 AM

"Voilence or peaceful lobbying?"

What do you suggest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:32 AM

Well I do not support voilence in any form.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:35 AM

Peacefully, if the Lib-Dem leadership were convinced they would be wiped off the political map by continuing to support the coalition it ought to make a difference

Their opinion poll rating has already dropped from 27% at the election to 11% now


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: pdq
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:39 AM

Naomi Klein says...

"At the most chaotic juncture in Iraq's civil war, a new law is unveiled that would allow Shell and BP to claim the country's vast oil reserves…. Immediately following September 11, the Bush Administration quietly out-sources the running of the "War on Terror" to Halliburton and Blackwater…. After a tsunami wipes out the coasts of Southeast Asia, the pristine beaches are auctioned off to tourist resorts.... New Orleans's residents, scattered from Hurricane Katrina, discover that their public housing, hospitals and schools will never be reopened…. These events are examples of "the shock doctrine": using the public's disorientation following massive collective shocks – wars, terrorist attacks, or natural disasters -- to achieve control by imposing economic shock therapy. Sometimes, when the first two shocks don't succeed in wiping out resistance, a third shock is employed: the electrode in the prison cell or the Taser gun on the streets."


{If you take "direct action" of any kind based on this type of inflamatory speech, you are making a mistake.}


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:02 PM

Yes, I'm interested.

However, the news as at 13th September about fixed term Parliaments (the Fixed Term Parliaments Bill) was: -

"Nick Clegg will ask MPs to back a move to fixed-term, five-year parliaments today amid warnings the legislation is rushed and could open Parliament to legal challenge.






The Deputy Prime Minister will hail the move to strip prime ministers of the power to pick election dates for party advantage as a "profound" reform.


But an influential committee of MPs last week raised a number of concerns about the Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill - which faces its first Commons hurdle this afternoon.


At present, a prime minister can ask the Queen to dissolve Parliament at any time within five years of the previous general election.


Under the Bill, general elections would take place on the first Thursday in May every five years from the next time voters go to the polls - which would be May 7, 2015.


Parliament would be dissolved early if no government could be formed within 14 days of a simple majority vote of no confidence, or if two-thirds of MPs voted to trigger a general election.


The latter threshold was raised after a political outcry over initial plans to set it at 55%.


In a hastily-prepared report, the cross-party Political and Constitutional Reform Committee welcomed the reforms but attacked the Bill's "unnecessarily" accelerated timetable.


It also highlighted concerns from the House of Commons' top official that Parliament could be left open to legal challenge and suggestions four-year terms could be more appropriate.


Clerk of the House Malcolm Jack told the committee that provisions in the Bill, which would require the Speaker to issue a certificate declaring that the dissolution requirements had been met, could lead to scrutiny by the courts.


He suggested using standing orders, rather than the statute book, to ensure the courts could not interfere in Parliament's internal workings.


Ahead of the debate, Mr Clegg said: "Establishing parliaments of fixed-terms is a straightforward, but fundamental, change in our politics. It is a simple constitutional innovation, but one that will have a profound effect.


"For the first time in our history, the timing of general elections will not be a plaything of governments. Prime ministers will no longer have the power to go to the polls at a time of their own choosing.


"Instead, there will be greater stability in our political system and people will know exactly how long a parliament can be expected to last.


"There may be exceptional circumstances in which it would not be appropriate for Parliament to continue to run for its full term.


"When there is a need to seek an earlier dissolution, that will be for the House - not the Government - to decide."


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:04 PM

PS. The dates of the committee stage in the Commons have not yet been announced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:14 PM

Peaceful Protests, exactly as we did for the Poll Tax. People need to come out to their town and city centres, to their war memorials.

Make it on Remberance Day.

Get The British Legion involved.

Get The Army, The RAF, The Navy involved.

Get the Schools involved.

Get the BBC involved.
Put the message out on the BBC boards. You'll all have to do it, I'm banned, as in any email address from my computer. The only page I can get on to is BBC Radio Devon, all the other BBC boards are shut to me.

Make this Remembrance Day Sunday the biggest peaceful protest this country has ever seen. And make it on that day to remember all those servicemen who've died, who are still dying, who are maimed, legless, limbless, because they thought/think they have done all that they've done to create a better country for us, a better world for all.


And make THIS your banner!

NEVER Have So Many Been Betrayed By So Few!


This is not just about our government, past or present, but it is about Bankers and all Corporate Bastards who are lying in their Princess and the Pea Beds, laughing their heads off at us all, as we lose everything...

This HAS to Stop!
This HAS to Change!


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: mauvepink
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:25 PM

I have actually said in the past week I would take part in peaceful means to protest if I thought it would do any good. There is a very real threat that any peaceful groups on the street could be used by those with less peaceful motivations and that is scary. None of us can help our loved ones if we get locked up and lose our jobs as a consequence.

I suspect some people will be in a position of thinking they have nothing else to lose and would go along with street demonstrations but, as has been seen in the very recent past, these too are not safe from hijacking by mobs or violence from the police. There is no way I could ever support violent means to bring about change. We have to keep the faith and believe tht in a democracy we should be able to find a way to bring change by peace. Naive, I know, but I have to live in the hope.

My great hope is that somewhere along the lines the backbenchers will revolt and threaten the coalition with more fear than any of us could do on the street. If they start getting it through their heads that the people are not saying we do not need to do something but are saying we need to protect the vulnerable, then maybe they will relent on some of these new cuts?

Violence wil beget violence. It always does. In the end getting around a table and talking is what will bring this hopefully to a better conclusion. Lobbying your MP and using your vote could be a good start if enough people do it?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:31 PM

That is the problem mp, peaceful protests invariably get infiltrated by the voilent b***ards who have no real interest in the peaceful protest.

I have already phoned my MP and complained about some of the things happening. That is what people need to do. Bombard your MP's


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM

More often than not any violence is provoked and initiated by the authorities, who then issue press statements about how the demonstrators were responsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:38 PM

The Poll Tax was removed through non-violent protest, mp.

We are not dealing with decent people here. We are dealing with countries around the world who are now run by The New World Order. Search youtube and you will actually find Canada's Prime Minister telling 'his' people (ha!) that they have surrendered the control of their finances to the world order. He kind of apologises for this at first, saying that some may see it as a loss of sovereignty, but hey, that's the way it is, basically...

Stephen Harper is not the only 'leader' (Pah!) to have lost control of his country..

So many countries are now owned by those who run the banks and the huge corporations, who are so mega-powerful that we cannot even start to imagine how much they are worth.

The Zionists own and control nearly all the world's media, and when you start looking into the whole Zionist thing it gets bloody depressing, I can tell you! The Jewish people themselves are starting to stand up against what is going on in their name...

This is not going to be won by having nice cosy chats over a cup of tea...

I don't advocate violence at all. But I tell you what, there is nothing to put the shit into the pants of any government more than seeing ALL their people taking to the streets, saying "EBloodyNOUGH!"

As I said...lift your banners and chant "NEVER Have So Many Been Betrayed By So Few!" because *that* is the truth, around the world, where the Minority now control the Majority at every point of their lives.



"Sometimes, Liz, some things are so evil that you have no choice but to make a stand....." - My Dad

Those words of his go deep inside my soul..and they will never go away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:43 PM

My reply to Arthur was a tad tongue in cheek I must say. As all I intended this thread to be was a general discussion.

Any action taken, will I'd suppose end up being multi-pronged, ideally IMO via a broad fraternity of existent mutually sympathetic organisations. That's the key, to co-ordinate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:43 PM

"More often than not any violence is provoked and initiated by the authorities, who then issue press statements about how the demonstrators were responsible."

And that is **EXACTLY** what happened with the Canadian Police at this year's G20 Conference, where they were dressed as civilians, and started throwing stones. Unfortunately for the bastards, (sorry mp, but that name fits them) they'd forgotten to remove their regulation police boots, and so were spotted and taken out of the crowd. The police officer in charge later apologised and tried to squirm his way out.

It's all out there, on Youtube, the whole damn thing.

And how many MILLIONS did they spend on the G20 Conference? Again, look it up and try not to leave your mouth haning open in horror for too long...because remember, these people simply DO NOT CARE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:46 PM

May I also suggest that anything that is done is done with polite and respectful language? No-one that can make a difference will read/listen to letters or conversations if they are full of aggressive speech and profanity. Neither would I expect them to. I myself would not like letters written in such ways and I sure do not like conversations full of foul language.

It seems some politicians already think of us as sheep, scroungers, minions etc., etc.. Let's not make it easy for them to turn away by giving them ammunition to shoot us before we can talk

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 12:52 PM

not just the message boards.. gathering outside tv and radio stations and local government offices with signs and handouts.

the problem is how to get enough local residents organised.

we don't know our neighbours, we don't stop and chat at the local shop or post office.

maybe getting involved with charities who work for the disabled and getting something going that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 01:01 PM

"Make it on Remberance Day."

That's too soon Lizzie, 11th November? Not enough time to effectively organise, unless someone else thinks different? Otherwise, I do think your other ideas have a lot going for them. Middle-class liberal folkies may not jive with the nationalist vibe, but it's definitely a practical way to attract the interest of people more generally. And there's certainly nothing wrong in that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 01:03 PM

"NEVER Have So Many Been Betrayed By So Few!"

Top stuff, keep the slogans coming LC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM

I do not have broadband so youtube is out as I keep stating lol

Decent or not. Blasting at these people never gets anywhere. All it confirms to them is what they already think of us.I am not suggesting cosy chats over cups of tea. I said that in the end it always comes down to people sitting around a table and talking it out.

Talking war and battlecries is what helped get us into this mess in the first place. They are still finding money for that war. The rich still make money from weapons being sold for that war. Violence will not solve it. It never does. That was all I was saying

Judging by some of the things I hear you can get on yotube I am glad I have no acccess at times.

Tell me. Will organise this direct action? Will they be elected? How soon before people from within the ranks of the protest start turning on their own numbers and start mouthing off abuse at them because they see it different?

Evil takes many forms sadly

mp [mauvepink]


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 01:11 PM

"Get the BBC involved."

Not gonna happen. It's been reported that the BBC top brass have already been in talks with the coalition to determine how they should help to sell the public the cuts.
So much for an independent publicly funded information service...
Channel 4 still seem open to critical comment however.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 01:18 PM

"Evil takes many forms sadly"

Good Lord Mauve, that's rather strong!
A populist slogan is simply something to motivate people, but the result doesn't necessarily have to be a "war". Not unless the powers that be decide that it must be and attack those who are peacefully protesting of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 01:26 PM

"peaceful protests invariably get infiltrated by the voilent b***ards who have no real interest in the peaceful protest."

This is a good point Arthur. Particularly when considering the recent state infiltrated agitation of demo's that we've witnessed in Canada for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM

It would help if we knew exactly what we are meant to be protesting about

Student fees

Public sector job cuts

Benefit cuts

Defence cuts

Unemployment rates

Raising the retiring age

5 year parliaments

School building programme cuts

all of the above? more than that? less than that? what is wanted in place of that? do nothing? borrow more? or just generally protest?

What are we meant to be uniting around?

Myself I would like to see a growth strategy that would help pay back the deficit. As it is how much money do you save by making half a million more people unemployed and giving them benefits instead of collecting their taxes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 02:04 PM

"It would help if we knew exactly what we are meant to be protesting about"

Precisely. That's why I started this thread.
If we object, then we each need to know what it is we object to. Then if enough of the populace objects, smaller units need to organise more generally in opposition of the cuts, and indeed the government itself. Which of course, as a coalition of minority parties representing disparate policies has no genuine democratic mandate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 02:37 PM

Thread #133044   Message #3014358

Posted By: GUEST

24-Oct-10 - 01:06 PM

Thread Name: BS: Direct Action : UK

Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK

I do not have broadband so youtube is out as I keep stating lol

Decent or not. Blasting at these people never gets anywhere. All it confirms to them is what they already think of us.I am not suggesting cosy chats over cups of tea. I said that in the end it always comes down to people sitting around a table and talking it out.

Talking war and battlecries is what helped get us into this mess in the first place. They are still finding money for that war. The rich still make money from weapons being sold for that war. Violence will not solve it. It never does. That was all I was saying

Judging by some of the things I hear you can get on yotube I am glad I have no acccess at times.

Tell me. Will organise this direct action? Will they be elected? How soon before people from within the ranks of the protest start turning on their own numbers and start mouthing off abuse at them because they see it different?

Evil takes many forms sadly

mp


"Evil takes many forms sadly"

Sorry Crowe Sister. Did not mean it to come across as strong. Rather I meant to point out that sometimes good people turn on good people who have a different view or perspective. When good people achieve or take on a position of power you see it happen so often that instead of taking the fight to the 'enemy' they take it to those who would be on their side.

Not doing a good job of explaining this but I know what I mean. I have seen it so many times. Self appointed leaders are often the most zealous.

But in no way was I suggesting that this is what you were trying to start. Quite the contrary. I just fear street actions turning into battle scenes the same way so many good cause have gone in thepast.

I'll shush... I really am not putting this across as eloquently as I would wish I could.

If I offended you Crow Sister I do apologise

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 02:45 PM

"When good people achieve or take on a position of power you see it happen so often that instead of taking the fight to the 'enemy' they take it to those who would be on their side."

Sure, and of course our history is rife with seemingly 'good' people who turn into hideous tyrants waging war on others. So your comment is well founded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Emma B
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM

The other day while commemorating the Aberfan tragedy I played Alex Glasgow's moving song 'Close the Coalhouse Door' again
Why can't I get this song of his out of my head?

As soon as this thread closes..........


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 06:44 PM

I don't really feel Emma that that's a fair reflection of a talented songwriter.

I also believe that the riots brought the poll tax down.

Talking nicely to the government achieves nothing other than hypocritical mumbling about "we must look into that".

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.

If you eschew violence (and, let's face it, the army has all the big guns unless, as the Irish proved, enough of you are ready to die) you need a different weapon.

Capital has the media already.

Pretty limited range of options, really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 08:06 PM

'riots brought the poll tax down.'

While the Poll Tax demo's had the effect of bringing about the people's will in that instance, 'direct action' certainly doesn't automatically have to include riots.

Many members of this forum will be familiar with peaceful forms of direct action from their days on CND marches and Greenham Common and so-on, not to mention action taken through strikes of course.

And for all the mumblings, taking action to demonstrate against the potentially hugely damaging and irreversible policies of a minority coalition, doesn't have to imply "revolution" either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:06 AM

Rafflesbear: "if the Lib-Dem leadership were convinced they would be wiped off the political map by continuing to support the coalition it ought to make a difference"
"Myself I would like to see a growth strategy that would help pay back the deficit. As it is how much money do you save by making half a million more people unemployed and giving them benefits instead of collecting their taxes?"

Yep. I guess the political influence of Guardian reading liberals is potentially quite a key one where this coalition is concerned. In theory if enough pressure were applied in the right places, it could force a dissolution of parliament?

I certainly can't see this government altering it's economic strategy, which IMO as has been said elsewhere, represents a prime *opportunity* for them to enforce capitalist economic ideology rather than representing a situation of no genuine alternative options.

Otherwise, the TUC have called for public support of their demonstration against the cuts in Hyde Park on 26th March:

"So now we'll be taking our message to ordinary men and women, encouraging them to get involved in our campaign against the cuts. On Tuesday, the TUC held a successful rally and lobby of parliament, bringing together unions and organisations such as Crisis and the Child Poverty Action Group.
'On Wednesday, to coincide with the spending review, unions held protests from Plymouth in the south to Newcastle in the north. Today, demonstrations are taking place in Cambridge, Bristol, Sheffield, Birmingham, Belfast, Edinburgh, Lincoln and London.
'So let's start campaigning and mobilising for our national demonstration against the cuts next Spring in London's Hyde Park on Saturday 26 March. Together let's make that mobilisation the biggest, boldest and best event in our history."

Hyde Park TUC Demo 26th March


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:33 AM

Direct action Willie style;

1. Let my MP know if I feel strongly enough about something he is in a position to influence or vote on.

2. Vote in the next general election.


Smash the system!!

ZZZZZZZZZ


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:49 AM

Yes, it's time for action. I have already sent an email to Jeremey Hunt regarding his appalling statement about not having children unless you can afford it and I also sent an email to my MP, David Davies, asking him to dissociate himself from the statemtn. I have had a reply back from Davis but not from Hunt.

Constant lobbying of MPs has to be a starting point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:03 AM

Agreed - at least letting them know we're unhappy is a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 06:52 AM

Why SHOULD people be paid for having children ?? Especially in a country that is already overpopulated ?? Where do you "revolutionaries" think all the money is going to come from ,during a national financial crisis ? Should the government print more & more banknotes?? (study 1930s Germany).Should EVERYONE in the country be employed as a Civil Servant,with all the perquisites that that entails ?? ( Many of you would like that, I know ! ; who wouldn't ??).
            The answer is for the government to instil,in all individuals,a sense of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY ; if a couple ( not that there are enough of THOSE these days,thanks to the "Feminists") intend having children,then they should be taught to accept the fact that the annual new car,the 36" -screen TV,the new 3-piece suite,the foreign holidays etc, will have to be put "on hold" for a few years. But that's NOT going to happen if the Government continues to pamper, spoil,and cushion the population against ANY kind of hardship (whether real or just perceived) or adversity ---which in any case,it patently can longer afford to do, as we are ALL in the grip of a MONUMENTAL financial crisis, for God's sake ; are you all BLIND ?? Get real,and come up with some sensible & realistic and practical solutions to the Nation's problems, don't bluster about "demonstrations" that will cause nothing but inconvenience for the general public (as in France)or hostility from the very Government that you want to influence !! Honestly,some of you are acting like petulant children !


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:02 AM

"then they should be taught to accept the fact that the annual new car,the 36" -screen TV,the new 3-piece suite,the foreign holidays etc, will have to be put "on hold" for a few years."

Time you (and the likes of Jeremey Hunt)lived in the real world instead of making stupid reactionary statements. Take a look at how people live on sink estates where they find it hard to scrape together enough to feed their kids. Hey, maybe we should send them up chimneys or down the mines (oh, sorry, Thatcher closed all of those)or make them beg in the streets. What kind of a heartless bastard are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:37 AM

There is no doubt that the violence of the poll tax riots in central London 20 years ago when demonstrators turned on police, attacking them with bricks, bottles and scaffolding poles hit the headlines or that this battleground between police and protesters in which 113 people were badly injured, including 45 police, came to be seen by some as the fatal blow for the government's community charge.

"For a start, if there had been no riot then the demonstration would have got no more than a few lines in the papers and a brief mention on the telly…..Remember the Glasgow demonstration against the Poll Tax in April 1989? Over 20,000 people were on it, a massive display of defiance that was quietly censored."
- Danny Burns defending the high profile anarchist Class War organisation perspective

However there was countrywide opposition to the Community Charge (a tax plan which shifted the burden for local essential services from rich to poor, landing poorer people with far higher bills) especially vehement in the North of England and Scotland and mass non violent direct action went on in the form of the non-payment campaign that followed As 25 million court cases had to be held to try to collect the unjust tax it became unenforceable.
Continued organized pressure upon MPs at ground roots level made the Tories retreat and abandon it in a 'palace coup' against Thatcher.

Speaking before the annual TUC conference in Manchester, last month the TUC general secretary Brendan Barber said:

"The poll tax was defeated when MPs returned to Westminster to report that their constituencies were in revolt. The poll tax offended the British people's basic sense of what's fair. So will the spending cuts.
Every coalition MP with a small majority and every coalition MP who fought an election to oppose deep early cuts needs to feel the pressure from their constituents to change course."

Quoted in GreenFeed Adam Ramsay considers some original campaigning ideas against the coalitions proposals for the future of the entire British education system

"The Lib Dems, in particular, have been vocal about introducing a right for constituents to recall their MPs. If they abstain or vote for an increase in fees, it should be made clear that this is precisely what they face. Even though the legislation on recall rights has yet to go through, it has been suggested that a threshold of around 10% of constituents signing a petition would be a reasonable amount to trigger a by-election – and campaigners can use this as a guide by gathering signatures, even if recall rights are never enshrined in law….
...it would be very difficult for an MP to ignore an unprecedented groundswell of opinion in their constituency – and campaigns could certainly claim that going back on such a public pledge constitutes a breach of trust between constituents and their MP.

Local campaigns should therefore look at recall petitions as a serious option. They could then put forward one candidate to take on the Lib Dems and Tories, getting the left, Greens and even Labour to stand aside to ensure maximum unity.

This would be something for the nascent local anti-cuts networks to mobilise around, with the potential to generalise the struggle against fees into a more holistic attack on the economic vandalism of the ConDems; it also presents a mouth-watering opportunity for greater left unity.
For students, such community-orientated tactics are, in my opinion, far more important than occupations and direct actions isolated on university campuses"

btw Richard - Alex Glasgow was a talented songwriter AND a socialist who was not shy of satire!


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:50 AM

"the annual new car, the 36"-screen TV, the new 3-piece suite,the foreign holidays etc".

I don't know any person (read my lips, not one) subsisting on benefits who has all of those. You must be in the gin and Jaguar belt Ratty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 08:04 AM

"You must be in the gin and Jaguar belt Ratty."

Cloud cuckoo land, more likely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 09:35 AM

>That is the problem mp, peaceful protests invariably get infiltrated by the voilent b***ards who have no real interest in the peaceful protest.

I have already phoned my MP and complained about some of the things happening. That is what people need to do. Bombard your MP's <

This is true as happened in London during the Iraq war protest there were some amongst the protestors who were just out to stir as much violent trouble as possible. I didn't go because of my job etc. but a friend did and she felt slightly unnerved by it. They can contrive anything to make it look like a thuggish mob and to make the police look under threat. Bombarding MP's is a start.

The 36'' screen tv and material things aren't important to everyone, I am not on benefits but still do not take holidays every single year or have the latest tv because I do not choose to, my children are grown-up now so I have been through the nuturing and schooling etc. but I can still appreciate how hard it can be especially now when children want what they see or read about in the media. I have known some women take two or three part time jobs in a day to make ends meet, at least they do it and should not be dictated to whether or not they should watch a 36'' screened tv or not because of their low income. Many well healed middle-class people got themselves into debt crisis before the recession using money they didn't have, programs have been made about it. As quibbling for paying for single or single underaged girls having babies the schools could do give a bit more guidance with this one and while they are at it educate the boys too to think above the waist line for a change and that it isn't cool. It is easy for a girl and boy to make a mistake it happens in all societies it is something that has always happened and always will. Older single mums would not make the choice of having a child without giving it a great deal of thought financially or anything else, it can't be assumed that they are going to be on benefit.

The recession has already changed ordinary working class people's attitudes and behaviours regarding waste and energy saving through advertising, news and general programmes even at schools to educate and inform children from that end. But for Cameron to start jabbing at the people who have done all this and the bankers have been the biggest rip-off crooks going is a bit rich. Demonstration is the last resort but if does so beit Cameron has had it far too cushy so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:04 AM

I think folks are getting off track here. Stop blaming those on benefits. It's EXACTLY what the government has been training you all to do these past months...

Meanwhile, those who have stolen billions from kind, well meaning, innocent people are living the high life and laughing their rich little heads off, because they are not being made to pay, they are not being exposed, they are not doing or being anything, other than enjoying being VERY wealthy people who don't have to pay back a penny.

And meanwhile, they keep paying themselves huge bonuses for being so damned clever, whilst folks at the other end of the ladder are turning each other in, blaming their neighbours...

All very clever stuff...

"Your on your yacht, we're on our knees..." taken from

ARROGANCE IGNORANCE & GREED - by SHOW OF HANDS

Learn the words.

You'll need to know them, inside out....

Now get back to what MATTERS!


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:08 AM

"As quibbling for paying for single or single underaged girls having babies the schools could do give a bit more guidance with this one"

FACT: teenage pregnancy rates have fallen by 4% since 2007.

FACT: the average age for women getting pregnant for the first time in the UK has risen to 29.

MYTH: the idea of more and more indolent young women than ever before are getting pregnant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:08 AM

Lizzie, do you have the number of teenagers in 2007 compared with 2010.
Could it be that there was a teenage population increase and therefore although down by 4% may in actual fact, hide the fact that more teenagers became pregnant in 2010. Just a thought.

The other thing is that Abortions seem to have increased dramatically. Is that correct?


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 11:57 AM

Arthur, I can't find the actual population figures. The point I'm making is that the overall number of pregnancies is decreasing so it is not an escalating drain on the benefit system as some would have us believe. Abortion rates have shown a small decline in the last 2 years. Average age for getting pregnant has been rising.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 12:01 PM

Oh sorry leveller, I thought it was Lizzie that posted that comment. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 01:57 PM

Arthur, conception rates are measured per 1,000 girls so any possible raise in the teenage population would be taken into account

According to data from the Office for National Statistics, 41,325 girls under 18 in England and Wales fell pregnant in 2008, a decline of 3.9% from 2007 This represents a rate of 40.4 per 1,000 girls in 2008 – a drop of just over 13% from 1998

Conception rates among under-16s fell by 6% to 7.8 per 1,000 girls in 2007.
Just under half of pregnancies among 15-to-18 year-olds led to an abortion.

In England, the north east had the highest pregnancy rate of 49 per 1,000 girls aged 15 to 17, while the east of England had the lowest rate, at 31.4 per 1,000.
In the ten poorest areas, conception rates fell 15% in the decade from 1998.

For regional variations and statistics see
'Facts are Sacred'

From the same source -

There were 189,100 abortions in 2009, down from 195,296 in 2008, data for women living in England and Wales from the Department of Health - a drop of 3.2%

Overall, 2,085 abortions (1% of the total) were for children who would have been born disabled. This included 775 for chromosomal abnormalities including Down's
syndrome and 496 for problems with the nervous system.

Among under-15s, there were 1,047 abortions (down from 1,097 in 2008), of which 136 were on girls under 14 and 911 were on 14-year-olds.
Among all under-16s, there were 3,823 abortions (down from 4,113 in 2008) and 17,916 among under-18s (down from 19,387 in 2008).
Girls aged 15 to 19 accounted for 39,020 abortions in 2009.


Of course this is nothing whatsoever to do with the thread which was a sincere attempt to consider the role of Direct Action and what form this could take against the draconian cut backs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 02:55 PM

TSO and I are down for the March in March. Don't have a 2011 calendar... somebody please remind me nearer the time.

Hopefully, there should be organised coaches taking people from all over the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 04:21 PM

When some of the god-bothering lunatic right get going on single mothers etc etc I am reminded of an alleged conversation of Lady Chatterley with Mellors: -

"Oh, is this what the common people call "fucking"?"

"Yes m'Lady"

"Oh, it's far too good for them!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 05:40 PM

Well its not all bad, this thread has given me some of the best laughs I've had in years.

Starting with Crow Sister. "As an aside, it's a bummer this topic is too far outside the remit of Folk against Fascism"

Arthur from the Emerald Isle, "doesn't support voilence in any form"

Lizzie wants to get "the Army the Navy, the RAF, AND Dads Army involved"

Mauvepink doesn't mind a bit of protesting, as long as there's no "foul language" involved.

Rafflesbear doen't know what to protest about

Emma's too much of an intellectual to get her hands bloody.

Leveller's still fighting the Tories.

We all know what the problem is, capitalism is finished with us. It leaves its demented daughter Fascism to gobble up the blood and guts.

No point in appealing to the forces, as Emma says they have all the guns and will not hesitate to shoot us down like dogs.

You're all too fucking "liberal" for a revolution why dont you just go down the pub and organise a nice session of anti BNP songs...:0)

In 2003 after the Labour Party had turned us all into murdering bastards, I stood with 100,000 Scots outside the Scottish Exhibition Conference Centre listening to all the speeches...the crowd was an angry growling beast, but the speech makers were hollow men, more interested in the effect of tomorrows headlines on their careers than in revolution.

A thousand police ringed the Centre to defend those inside...and indeed, I would have stormed it single handed and personally despatched the whole Labour cabinet, but in the event the people milled around for a while, then we all went home to have our tea.

There are two options, stick with capitalism/fascism, take your medicine and shut the fuck up.
Or decide that we need a completely different type of society, a society which in its construction will involve pain suffering and poverty, before humanity finds its true place in this world.

Do you think you're hard enough?


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Subject: RE: BS: Direct Action : UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 02:57 AM

Any society that does not look after its most vulnerable citizens does not deserve to thrive. The moral high ground that is seemingly impractical to the current government.

I wish I was young and healthy enough to accommodate my hotheadedness. I am not. But also, I really don't care much for the life that is being handed to me, so I don't mind getting my head bashed in for a good cause. Matters not that it won't make a speck of difference.


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