BS: Language Pet Peeves

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 04:29 AM

New word: antiquainted.

It has been round a long time for a new word. Anyway, what makes "outmoded" a better alternative. I would choose "dated" or "outdated" over "outmoded".

My mother and her friends, born in Liverpool before World War One, would describe unfashionable clothes using the made-up word "antwacky". This managed convey a real distaste for anything antiquated.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 12:10 AM

New word: antiquainted. Outmoded, but still cute.

Today's oxymoron: a fixed glance. I had to put the book down and untangle my mind (ooh it's a music thread now).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:11 PM

I have never said "Cerv-eye-cal." I don't say "Eye-ran" or "Eye-talians" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:07 PM

Mrrzy, the first part of my last post (re pronunciation of cervical) was quoting what Nigel said, only I forgot to put in quote marks.
The second part, "I think you'll find....." was me, and I DID specifically say "in the UK". I respect your multiple qualifications and painful experiences, but I spent a lot of my working life looking at cervices as well as dealing with pains in the neck and have a long string of hard-earned letters after my name, including FFFPRCOG (I know we all love acronyms here!) To me and my UK medical colleagues it is Cerv-eye-cal, whether "down below" or "up above" the waistline.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:01 PM

Grr. You said albeit, Thomson. Grr. Another changed stress that's creeping in is REsearch. It was always reSEARCH when I was at university. And for donkey's yonks I've railed at Mrs Steve saying ICE cream. It's bloody ice CREAM! It will never be a divorce issue, however, as we both happen to love the frozen article in question...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:00 PM

"a hard 'th' like 'the' - is more and more horribly often pronounced like the English town of Louth, which has a soft 'th' like 'commonwealth'."

When you get into pronunciation, bear in mind that this is an international forum. As a Canadian, I have no idea how the 'th' in 'the' could be any different from that in 'commonwealth' ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 06:17 PM

Thompson: comPACT (adj) vs COMpact (n) is anther pair that has been leveled by the vulgar. By now, "a comPACT car" (or "disc") would sound hopelessly la-di-da.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 05:37 PM

Ah yes, creeping pronunciations. To "proTEST" has become to "PROtest", the verb pronounced the same as the noun, and in various other words I can't now place but which make my flesh creep when I hear them, the emphasis has sneaked back to the first syllable.
Then there's all the pronunciations where people have seen the word written but have never heard it used - albeit "Al Bate"; segue rhyming with vague, etc.
And place names: when they're pronounced wrong once, that's it, the pronunciation changes forever. Hubert Butler has a wonderful article where he's raging about Dublin placenames like those correctly pronounced DorSETT Street and WESTmoreland Street being pronounced DORset and WestMOREland nowadays. And of course Louth in Ireland - always correctly pronounced with a hard 'th' like 'the' - is more and more horribly often pronounced like the English town of Louth, which has a soft 'th' like 'commonwealth'.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 03:02 PM

Nope. See my comment above. I have seen chiropractors, physical therapists, orthopedists, neurosurgeons, general practitioners, and others for my vertebral issues, as well as gotten a doctorate in physiological psych, and nobody, no medical or professorial professional, has ever in my hearing pronounced cervical (referring to neck vertebrae) with an Eye in the middle. I think that is likely British... All my English-language studies and medical confabs have been in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 01:53 PM

I've never worked out why 'cervical cancer' seems to be pronounced 'cervical' ('vic' as in 'victor') when related to the entrance to the womb, but 'cerv-eye-cal' when referring to the vertebrae at the top of the spine.
I think you'll find that most medics in the UK pronounce both the same way: cerv-eye-cal. it's just TV news journalists who don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:17 AM

The only trouble with all this is that the vulva is not the vagina is not the cervix. They just happen to be next to each other. Ish.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:57 AM

Wow! Thanks! Great link!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

No, 'cervix' is not androcentric. I was pointing it out as a suitable, 'non-androcentric' replacement for 'vagina'.

Seeing Mrrzy was unaware of the different pronunciations , I thought I'd dig a little deeper. Pronunciation here . Admittedly, that page does not seem to show that either pronunciation is associated with a particular variant meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:08 AM

I was not taught to pronounce the word cervical differently for the two ends. Have never heard it with the Eye pronunciation, and I have seen a *lot* of spinal professiinals over the years. Could that be British?

Also, cervix means Neck. Hardly androcentric.

On the other hand you have the mammilary bodies in the brain. They looked like tits to the guy who named'm. Nothing to do with mammilary function.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:04 PM

I suppose that "ugh" is an attempt to render a common interjection in writing, a bit like "arrgh." I'd say that's unobjectionable. As for "aunt," just do what we northerners do and say "auntie" every time. Viola!

Ah, trying to bring music back in ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:01 PM

Also, remember the vulva. People frequently say vagina when they mean vulva. That bugs me. Many people don't even know the word vulva.
Vulva vulva vulva it is such a great word, too.
What's worse is vagina means "sheath" - androcentric, eh.

Yes, 'Vulva' is a good word. I like the term 'pudenda'.
And if you think 'vagina' is androcentric, there's always 'cervix'. I've never worked out why 'cervical cancer' seems to be pronounced 'cervical' ('vic' as in 'victor') when related to the entrance to the womb, but 'cerv-eye-cal' when referring to the vertebrae at the top of the spine.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 31 May 20 - 12:13 AM

Yes, you could put it that way, I suppose ... !

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 May 20 - 10:34 PM

Upon which he is bloviating? Bwahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 30 May 20 - 03:48 PM

My sister-in-law said "ax," and she was a white person from Tennessee. It's strange how self-appointed language experts haven't traveled enough, and haven't listened enough notice that Southern speech and black speech might sometimes be the same, sometimes be different.

And they don't touch the issue that many people are partly white, partly black.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 30 May 20 - 10:34 AM

Manitas: the "ask/ax" business was just another annoyance from that John T. Reed person - the fool clearly knows nothing about the language he is bloviating on, and is displaying his ignorance in the furtherance of some kind of racist agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 20 - 06:40 AM

Sen, here in the North Lincolnshire Backwoods, ‘Aunt’ is pronounced ‘Ant’, and ‘Auntie’ is ‘Anti’. Also ‘Bath’ and ‘Path’ have no ‘r’, we use the flat ‘a’.

We also pronounce ‘up’ as ‘up’, we don’t say either the Satherner’s ‘app’, or the non-existent (except in the minds of Satherners) ‘oop’! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 May 20 - 05:35 AM

George Formby used to sing about "Auntie Maggie's Homemade Remedy", pronounced 'anti'.
I've heard 'antie' but never 'ant' opp north. People would think one was referring to an insect!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 20 - 05:23 AM

I suppose that "ugh" is an attempt to render a common interjection in writing, a bit like "arrgh." I'd say that's unobjectionable. As for "aunt," just do what we northerners do and say "auntie" every time. Viola!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 30 May 20 - 04:02 AM

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/people-have-been-saying-ax-instead-ask-1200-years-180949663/

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: BobL
Date: 30 May 20 - 02:33 AM

In my part of the world "aunt" and "aren't" are homophones. Not everywhere. Problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:39 PM

My whole family (sibs parents parents' sibs their kids) says ant. My kids both say awnt. Weirdoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 29 May 20 - 03:56 PM

I was reading the article/list that Bill D. linked to, and I got as far as: "Why are you guys so big on pronouncing aunt as ahnt, which sounds incongruously like aristocratic putting on airs to me." We're supposed to take linguistic advice from that illiterate buffoon? This, btw, is taken from a rant aimed at the way "blacks" pronounce certain words, apparently, and is followed by a gratuitous reference to Aunt Jemima. I invite John T. Reed to go away and have carnal relations with himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:35 PM

I recall it took me 2 years to correct my collapsed thumb to the proper bent thumb. Old habits die hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 29 May 20 - 01:06 PM

Here's one I'm trying not to let become a pet peeve: for the past six months or so, I see the - not sure what to call it - utterance? interjection? vocable? - "ugh" in posts all over the internet. I'm never sure what it's supposed to mean, at least, until I've read into the posts; even then, I'm not always certain. I realize that "ugh" is not new, but its widespread use is. Anyone know how this recent phenomenon got started? Who was the "influencer"?

Here's one I just read on thesession (yes, I do have too much time on my hands, as a matter of fact): "Ugh! The bent thumb!" (relating to holding the violin bow).

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 20 - 01:01 PM

Also, remember the vulva. People frequently say vagina when they mean vulva. That bugs me. Many people don't even know the word vulva.

Vulva vulva vulva it is such a great word, too.

What's worse is vagina means "sheath" - androcentric, eh.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:50 PM

I've just been wasting time on YouTube, and it has reminded me of something that always irritates me: when adults adopting a foreign child refer to it as Gotcha Day.

To me, there's something predatory about it. I picture a harrier's bloodthirsty swoop onto a hapless chipmunk. Will the child have any individuality left after this family engulfs it?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:32 PM

”As an aside to people saying drawer when they mean draw: I always say draw but, when I was an apprentice, it was pointed out that there was no "r" in the middle of the word "drawing". Since then, I have made a conscious effort not to say "drawring" but, even after these many years, it doesn't come naturally.“

And my hackles rise when people write ‘draw’ instead of ‘drawer’ - Aaaaaaarrrgghh!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:28 PM

Not so. We should be relaxed about the ways in which we use English casually in everyday life. We should reserve our ire or scorn or derision for those who would be pompous or self-regarding, and, of course, for those who get it wrong in supposedly serious, formal written English. When it comes to Mudcat, nothing fills me with glee more than someone who criticises MY English. Their own efforts are invariably peppered with errors, and I love to point them out as scornfully as I can manage.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:03 PM

Absolutely, meself! That goes without saying.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: meself
Date: 29 May 20 - 11:06 AM

Tentative conclusion based on posts to this point: if an 'incorrect' usage annoys you, those who perpetrate it are contemptible; if an 'incorrect' usage does not annoy you, or if you even perpetrate it yourself, then anyone who is annoyed by it is contemptible. Agreed?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 20 - 09:37 AM

Yeah, bacterium, too. And datum.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Thompson
Date: 29 May 20 - 07:51 AM

And 'criteria' used as a singular. Criterion, please! And 'may' used when 'might' would be clearer.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:44 AM

An interesting list from Bill D's link but many of the explanations should have been prefixed with "In my opinion ..." . I had to check to check back to see who the author was. I thought that it might have been Steve. ;-)

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:25 AM

No need to get peeved. Just be amused. I love it when supposedly well-educated folks, newsreaders or reporters for example, say things such as "seckertry", "priminister", "Febry"and "deteriate". But let's reign ourselves in from being too critical. Alright? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 May 20 - 04:00 AM

From what I have tasted, head cheese isn't a sort of brawn. It is brawn.

I'm not much fussed if people say "different to" or "different from" but, personally, I always try to use "different from".

As an aside to people saying drawer when they mean draw: I always say draw but, when I was an apprentice, it was pointed out that there was no "r" in the middle of the word "drawing". Since then, I have made a conscious effort not to say "drawring" but, even after these many years, it doesn't come naturally.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 May 20 - 02:35 AM

Didn't Edgar Allan Poe write a poem in which one line says:-
Quoth the raven "Nevermore!" (all one word)
And I had to look up 'head cheese'leeneia!! It sounded like a rather nasty form of dandruff, but I see it's a sort of brawn!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: leeneia
Date: 29 May 20 - 01:26 AM

"Anymore" is an interesting word. Sometimes it needs to be two words:

    I don't want any more deviled eggs.

Or it can be an adverb meaning "at this time and into the future":

    I don't play the bagpipe anymore.

When I moved to Missouri, I learned a new sense, namely "nowadays."

    It seems like anymore nobody knows how to make head cheese.
====
I'd find it hard to explain to anyone how we got the second two meanings from the two words any and more.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:47 AM

Oh, that *was* fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: JennieG
Date: 29 May 20 - 12:32 AM

These are written rather than spoken, but they still irritate:

Using 'draw' instead of drawer. Do not do it. The word is 'drawer'.

'Walla' instead of 'voila'.

This one has been seen on many a quilting page - sewing a 'boarder' instead of a 'border' around your quilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 20 - 09:51 PM

I posted some 'concerns' way back in the thread... but when doing a search for an official answer on some, I stumbled on this:

....dumb-things-people-should-stop-saying-and-writing.

Have fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:18 PM

You can say different to or different from. Only nitpicking grammar police will pick you up for that. I do sort of object to "anymore" as, to me, it's two words, not one, but I won't lose sleep over it. What we should always remember is that, in everyday speech and when we're typing on Mudcat, we're allowed to be casual in order to avoid erecting barriers. In more formal writing you should ideally know the rules and try to stick to them. If you don't know the rules, you might get away with it if you know a good copy editor and/or proofreader. And even they should remember that we're in the 21st century and that a touch of indulgence could be in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 May 20 - 06:02 PM

I really like regional vocabulary and dialect differences around the world (and around the UK) They're not the same thing as grammatical errors and rather ignorant misuses.
Having been born in West London, lived in Edinburgh and Glasgow and now Norfolk, I've thoroughly enjoyed the variations in speech, accent and dialect.
I can't explain why some utterances irritate me nowadays.
I should try harder to accept them I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 May 20 - 05:14 PM

Also I am getting used to the more-British-than-American "different TO" where murricans say Different FROM.

I am *not* getting used to "on accident" instead of By accident, however.

Also some regions of the States equate the terms Anymore and Nowadays, while I use them differently:

I (verb noun) nowadays. Means I usen't* to but I do now.
I don't (verb noun) anymore. Means I used to but now no longer do.

I (verb noun) anymore just clashes.

*See, I remembered!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 28 May 20 - 09:17 AM

Donuel, "Forty Days and Forty Nights" is the first line of a Palm Sunday hymn in /The Book of Common Praise/. Anyone who has dealt with the "hospitality industry" knows that it was 39 nights and it wasn't on the European plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 May 20 - 05:39 PM

"Bored of" is fine. That's what lots of people say, so object if you like but it's a fight you'll lose. If you can be tired of you can be bored of. Come on, let's see you arguing that one. What I don't like is the degradation of language by the ditching of really useful distinctions. I can't accept "alternate" instead of "alternative" because these words have distinct meanings that are worth preserving. I feel the same about "uninterested" and "disinterested" and will continue to use them my way, but I know I've lost that fight. Shame really, but language is wot people speak, not wot academics decide we should speak.