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BS: Burning Korans

katlaughing 10 Sep 10 - 11:47 PM
katlaughing 10 Sep 10 - 11:15 PM
Donuel 10 Sep 10 - 10:10 PM
Donuel 10 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM
Donuel 10 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM
bobad 10 Sep 10 - 09:25 PM
Lonesome EJ 10 Sep 10 - 08:52 PM
Alice 10 Sep 10 - 08:30 PM
John P 10 Sep 10 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 10 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,mg 10 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM
gnu 10 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,mg 10 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM
Emma B 10 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,mg 10 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,mg 10 Sep 10 - 04:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM
Amos 10 Sep 10 - 04:09 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Sep 10 - 04:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 10 - 03:35 PM
katlaughing 10 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM
Paco O'Barmy 10 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM
katlaughing 10 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM
Lonesome EJ 10 Sep 10 - 02:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 10 - 02:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Sep 10 - 02:24 PM
Lox 10 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM
katlaughing 10 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM
beardedbruce 10 Sep 10 - 01:29 PM
Ebbie 10 Sep 10 - 01:21 PM
Emma B 10 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM
katlaughing 10 Sep 10 - 11:44 AM
Emma B 10 Sep 10 - 11:24 AM
beardedbruce 10 Sep 10 - 11:07 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Sep 10 - 11:06 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Sep 10 - 10:09 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Sep 10 - 10:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 10 - 10:03 AM
beardedbruce 10 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM
Lox 10 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM
Greg F. 10 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM
Emma B 10 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM
mauvepink 10 Sep 10 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM
Lox 10 Sep 10 - 06:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 10 - 06:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 10 - 05:46 AM
Lox 10 Sep 10 - 05:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Sep 10 - 03:19 AM
mousethief 10 Sep 10 - 02:58 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:47 PM

I if lived in Gainesville, Florida, I'd be pretty proud of the community. Here's why: CLICK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:15 PM

JohnP, I agree, well-put. Thanks.

Donuel, yes, I agree with you, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:10 PM

From: mousethief - PM
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:58 AM

I think the "Fire in a crowded theatre" analogy is off. More comparable is yelling "go ahead and shoot him I dare you" to a nutjob who is holding a gun to your neighbour's head. Then claiming, "Hey, I didn't shoot him. Don't look at me" when your neighbour gets his brains splattered onto the lawn.


Aptly put

Yet this is what mainstream Republicans (gingrich, Bachman, Palin, Beck...) are saying as they light the oily rags of racism and religious intolerence, just to incite people to fight against a populist movement and President and restore the corporate status quo. Religous wars and race wars are the easiest conflagrations to ignite by self consumed despots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM

BTW
The core of Masonic beliefs is to be free of any one religion to attain universal knowledge and enlightenment beyond the bigotry of a single exclusive religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM

The more religious some people are the more they are against freedom of religion. Why do these "people of faith" virtually turn against the freedom of religion?

This is because they worship the idol of their own convictions regarding their one true religion. "Worshipping the idol of their beliefs" is a working definition of bigotry.
This is the trap of idolitry that Moses warned against.
The golden calf is an allagory that is often lost to fundamentalists.
Idolitry can easily trap people. This is why pictures of holy people were once considered bad by Christians. They were the antiiconoclasts.

In Islam pictures of people in their place of worship is strictly banned (with the exception of one Mosque in Turkey which was once a Byzantine church. THis is why some Muslims still consider a picture cartoon of "Mo" to be anathma - BUT I BET THEY DON'T KNOW WHY. They haven't the foggiest.

fOR ME THE BEST WAY TO EXPERIENCE TRUE RELIGION OR SPIRITUALITY IS TO BE FREE FROM IT. With independence and diversity one can experience mysteries and sublime love with magnificent freedom.

I can see more clearly with freedom than being a slave to religion or foggy idolitry. If you have ever had an epiphany (not epistomy) you will recall the freedom that it inspired.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: bobad
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:25 PM

Muslims and Islam Were Part of Twin Towers' Life

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:52 PM

Well said, John.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Alice
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:30 PM

John P, thanks for writing what I was thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: John P
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:06 PM

One of the things I find most bizarre about this whole thing is that he calls his church the "Dove World Outreach Center". Maybe he already burned his dictionary . . .

Guest Boise, as a sign of respect for all the Muslims killed in the 9/11 attacks, could you please refrain from referring to "Muslims" as if they were all the same? As a sign of respect for all the non-Christians killed by Timothy McVeigh, would you please refrain from ever going to church on April 19?

I'm an American. I think that September 11 is a great day to have a conversation about religious intolerance. Can we start with yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM

Some of those Americans that were killed on 9th September WERE Muslims and many Muslims have also died since that date who were also innocent.

In the interest of fairness this needs to be pointed out

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM

No. I must politely refuse your request. We are not presently at war with a particular religion. In Iraq we are/were at war with a demonic person and his government. I like to think the majority of Iraqis are on our side at this point and appreciate our efforts on their behalf to rid them of a monster. Afghanistan is a more complex problem but I do not see it as being at war against them, but rather in a complicated situation alongside them. ANything can go topsy turvey at any point of course. But I do not burn books of another religion, I do not support those who do. I do not blame Muslims for 9/11. And yes, I did put my own life on the line some time ago so I feel perfectly at ease expressing my policies here. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: gnu
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM

I hope THOUSANDS of people attend, surround these idiots and drown them out with song. Got a few songs in mind. First one is, `We Shall Overcome`.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM

Another article from Melungeon site. There are conferences every year or two.

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/august2003.htm

And President Lincoln's mother was apparently of Melungeon descent. It almost seems to me I have read that President Obama's was as well. I think it is possible that I have some on my mother's Williams side, who were from Georgia, and have the coppery toned skin. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM

"Emma, read 'Not Without My Daughter' by betty Mahmoody"

about the film...

The movie was based on a book with the same title, written by Betty Mahmoody and William Hoffer and based on Betty's version of events. The screenplay was written by David W. Rintels. The film was directed by Brian Gilbert and filmed at GG Studios, Neve Ilan, Israel and in Atlanta, Georgia.

"Not Without My Daughter does not play fair with its Muslim characters.
If a movie of such a vitriolic and spiteful nature were to be made in America about any other ethnic group, it would be denounced as racist and prejudiced."
— Film critic Roger Ebert

Caryn James of The New York Times, in a review, states that the movie
"exploits the stereotype of the demonic Iranian...it is an utter artistic failure, and its reliance on cultural stereotype is a major cause". Moody, she writes, seems to be a "pure product of his culture, a mysterious, misogynist Easterner...the film views fanaticism as the Iranian national character".

A review in the Los Angeles Times described the movie as "unbalanced and distorted" which "fails to distinguish between the (Iranian) state and the people

"In response to Not Without My Daughter, a Finnish documentary, titled Without My Daughter was made by director Alexis Kouros.
It is composed of interviews with Dr. Mahmoody regarding his life in Iran and attempts to contact his daughter Mahtob again.
Kouros said that the aim of the 90-minute documentary was to "show the lies in the American film and present the real story behind" what turned into an acrimonious custody battle for Mahtob Mahmoody"

Don't think I'll bother thanks ..... maybe something a little more objective?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM

just google Melungeon and Muslim.

Here is a book index..

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/mar2004.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 04:33 PM

It is time for everyone to read up on Melungeons again and see that we have had a Muslim presence (I think..the history is confusing) from the earliest times of America..which is good of course. There are links to Turkey, Portugal etc...DNA links to Syria...it is all confusing and complex but it is being unraveled.

And as someone raised Catholic (by a rabid convert mother from Baptist religion), we were not raised to be tolerant. We were raised by the Catholic church to be probably what would be viewed as condescending now to "pagans", which to us were a form of Protestants, and we ransomed them with our milk money so they could be baptised. We were raised to be aloof from Protestants and to not go where they were...like the YMCA swimming pool..which eventually we could go to with permission but we could not use the crafts there because they might try to convert us. This was official parish (read missionary parish of Ireland) policy. We were raised to be absolutely terrified of Masons more than any other group. We had no teachings at all about Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc. They were fairly benign subgroups of the Protestants as far we could tell. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM

Well, no surprises there then, eh, Amos? :0) What is so terrible is the way the dingbats of the Press have picked up on it worldwide and turned this into a massive planet problem.

It's not only the crazy preacher who's lost it, but the vast majority of the dumbed down human race who have no idea, or care, of the consequences of their actions...


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Amos
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 04:09 PM

Der SPiegel has an interview with Jone's daughter, who has opposed thep[lan from the beginning. An excerpt:

"SPIEGEL ONLINE: Ms. Jones, your father wants to burn hundreds of Korans at his church in Florida on Saturday. What do you think of the plan?


Emma Jones: I am shocked and condemn it. When I hear what he is currently saying in interviews about his motivations, he seems like a stranger to me.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Have you asked him not to go through with it?

Jones: Yes. I sent him an e-mail. I wrote: Papa, don't do it. I actually haven't had any contact with him since he left Cologne in 2008. But because I think his plan is so awful, I implored him to consider the consequences -- not just for him but for the whole world.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Has he answered?

Jones: No. But I didn't think he would.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why do you think your father sees Islam in such a hostile way?

Jones: It is relatively new. For years he led a church in Cologne that was, at first, merely Bible oriented, but later it began to have sect-like elements. Just before he left Cologne in 2008 and returned to the US, he began saying that Islam is getting the upper hand and that we can't allow it. But I didn't grow up with this radicalism.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How did you grow up?

Jones: We were raised in a very Christian household, and it was very strict. But also very social. We received visits from people from all over the world and were open to everything.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Former members of his church have spoken of psychological cruelty, forced work, financial irregularities and calls to beat ones own children.

Jones: My mother, Lisa Jones, died in 1996 of a heart attack. Shortly thereafter, my father remarried and I left the church at age 17. In 2005, he offered me a job as a bookkeeper in a company belonging to the church, which sold donated furniture on eBay. I gained a new insight, and realized that my father preached things and did things that I didn't find to be in accordance with the Bible at all. He demanded that people completely obey him and his second wife, Sylvia. Both are extremely obsessed with power. I saw genuine religious delusion. A typical indication of a sect. Both of them wanted to control everything."...


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 04:08 PM

Emma, read 'Not Without My Daughter' by betty Mahmoody. She was married to an Iranian American, a surgeon who'd lived in the USA for decades, but he returned to Iran when one of his family was ill, if I remember correctly, can't find the book at present...

After the visit he decided to return once again, this time taking his daughter with him. He did not return her, nor did he come back himself. The story, now a film with Sally Field in, follows Betty's journey to get her daughter back again. She went to hell and back.

She was forced to send her little girl to the local school, very much against her wishes, and there, before the start of every lesson, the children were taken into a room which had a United States Flag painted on the floor, and they were taught to spit on it. She was totally shocked, but then she was shocked about much of what she saw, heard and experienced, whilst in Iran.

I worked with Muslims from all over the Middle East. Some were absolutely wonderful, kind, thoughtful, polite and regal...from Princes to Paupers, quite literally. Some though, were utter bastards who loathed Westerners and all we stand for.

But then, some Christians loathe Muslims and all they stand for too...so the See-Saw of Hatred is sadly, always balanced just so....


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 03:35 PM

I agree that "The majority of Muslims are like the majority of Christians, etc...peaceful, tolerant, and appalled at the hate ..."
That still leaves many who are not.
Have you seen tonight's news?
The Civil Rights Movement was about civil rights.
No one has a right never to be insulted.

It is despicable and wrong to deliberately insult a religious group.
It is not acceptable for a religious group to resort to violence when it happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM

The problem is the way so many muslims are sure to react to this insult, which other religions seem able to shrug off.

1] MANY Muslims? You might like to take a look at a few of These Articles. The majority of Muslims are like the majority of Christians, etc...peaceful, tolerant, and appalled at the hate and assumptions made by such statements as the above.

2] Other religions shrug off "this insult" meaning the idiot in FL? I refer you to another article AND statement by religious leaders from across America HERE. They are not shrugging it off.

Regarding your whole statement, do you suggest that any/all insults should be "shrugged off" by groups who are targeted? By that reasoning, we should not have had a civil rights movement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM

Jebus H..... What the f##k has 'Keith of Hertford' done to you all?? Your real enemies are out there in the real world. Look on the bright side, when they finally run out of oil, they will never appear on our TV screens again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM

Exactly, LeeJ. Well-put.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:51 PM

McGrath, the flag is a symbol of an idea, and most Americans think the idea is a pretty good one.
Some Americans view flag-burning as an assault on the idea, and it outrages them. Most Americans realize that there is a difference between a noble concept and a piece of cloth, and react accordingly.

I find it unbelievable that this petty bible-thumper in Forida has been able to engage legitimate political and religious leaders in high-level meetings through his little hate exercise. He has gained enormous recognition and some completely unwarranted political capital, and to imagine that no one else will attempt to do the same is naive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:50 PM

But Lox, my case from my first post has been that twats like the obscure, irrelevant pastor, doing their twattish things, are always going to be with us.
The problem is the way so many muslims are sure to react to this insult, which other religions seem able to shrug off.
No red herring.
Absolutely on subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:24 PM

Is it really the case that Americans think of their flag as a sacred object?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM

"I also criticize the killing that some thought justified by the cartoons.
Don't you Lox?"

When I see someone supporting killing I'll confront them ... on the appropriate thread.


I am also critical of those who think violence is justified by the actions of this twat.
Aren't you Lox?

When I read a post defending such violence I'll confront it.



In the meantime, this isn't a thread about those things ... you're changing the subject.

Enough with the red herrings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM

Thanks for the clarification, Bruce. I actually agree with you!:-)

Emma, thanks for the cite. I had not heard that about Phelps burning a copy of the Koran. It does prove my point, though, that IF the media did NOT cover such things, they would not have the potential the FL idiot did to foment so much hate in the entire world. It would be good if the media and other folks would remember freedom of speech does not guarantee a spot on every second news flash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 01:29 PM

I really thought that it was obvious- NOTE THE STARS!


*********************************************************************
If the two groups cross paths, "maybe we'll take them to lunch or something," said Mohammed Salih. He is a Cheyenne Muslim who will join in the Unitarians' event."
*********************************************************************



Mr. Salih is to be applauded. He is far more "Christian" in his response than most of the posters HERE.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 01:21 PM

I echo katlaughing's question, bb: Which man's attitude do you "like"? Duncan Philp or Mohammed Salih?

Incidentally, we have a couple of confusing names floating around. Duncan Philp is not Fred Phelps.

Man. There is nothing like a thirst for notoriety to bring out the loonies; the problem is that loonies can instigate chaos as quickly as the erudite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM

As I mentioned kat, it is reported that the occasion apparently went pretty much unnoticed at the time

Here is one recent reference

"One of those angry at a Florida preacher's plans to mark Sept. 11 by setting fire to copies of the Quran is Shirley Phelps Roper, a leader of the Westboro Baptist Church.

While she joins Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Gen. David Petraeus, the White House, Afghan President Hamid Karzai and many more, Phelps-Roper, Fred Phelps' lawyer daughter, is hardly a voice for religious tolerance.

Her irritation Wednesday was not that the Rev. Terry Jones and his Dove World Outreach Center's planned bonfire would offend Muslims worldwide and probably increase the danger to American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It's that in 2008 she and her father's Topeka flock set fire to a Quran in plain view on a Washington, D.C., street and nobody seemed to care.

"We did it a long time before this guy," Phelps-Roper said by telephone from a street corner in downtown Chicago, scene of the latest Westboro picket — against Jews this time, not gays.

The difference could be that in 2008 many news media outlets had decided to ignore the group's routine of spewing hatred at funerals of fallen American soldiers.

So when Fred Phelps, calling Muhammad a "pedophilic gigolo," went online and invited people to attend the burning, most stayed away."

By Donald Bradley and Rick Montgomery | The Kansas City Star Via McClatchy News:


It has also been reported that Fred Phelps posted on his website that he already burned the Koran in 2008 and that he will do so again if the Florida preacher backs down.
I confess I couldn't bring myself to confirm this by hitting on his website

"In the 90's, when Westboro Church began launching their now infamous anti-gay pickets, pushing their "God Hates Fags" website and anti-homosexual views, they were able to get easy media access due to the novelty of the events.
But as the media began to ignore them, the church had to escalate their actions, leading to pickets of military events, allegedly pro-gay schools and art events, and even the funerals of the Minnesota bridge collapse victims.

Even then, few media would cover their schemes, leaving them mostly to themselves….

But it's become a much more hostile environment these days, with both racial and religious intolerance escalating -- an environment that plays perfectly for the agenda of thinly disguised hate groups."

From Care2 website

Shirley Phelps-Roper says she thinks Jones will fold under the building pressure.
"They'll browbeat him and he'll back down at the last minute," she said.
"He's an apologist. He doesn't serve God."


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:44 AM

Bruce, which one?

There is a good op/ed piece, imo, HERE.

Emma, do you have any examples of Phelps burning copies of the Koran? I know he is met, always, with counter-demonstrators whenever he rants and raves against gays/lesbians/etc., but I've heard nothing of him doing something like the idiot in FL proposed. The latter seems to be a first and, I hope, a one off. Phelps is ongoing and met with resistance and frankly, doesn't deserve the coverage, nor did the FL guy, imo.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:24 AM

"There are little children in Iran who apparently are taught to spit on the American Flag each day"

May I please request the source for this?

btw - Dover is not for sale LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:07 AM

I do like this persons attitude!

"Philp will tell Wyoming Highway Patrol officers stationed at the Capitol of his plans. If there is a policy against burning, he plans to rip up the copy and throw it in a garbage can. The burning would move to a private business.

Church members said they did not know about Philp's plans when they set up their event. They found out from a reporter on Wednesday, Lightsey said.

They will meet at 10 a.m. Saturday at the church, 3005 Thomes.

*********************************************************************
If the two groups cross paths, "maybe we'll take them to lunch or something," said Mohammed Salih. He is a Cheyenne Muslim who will join in the Unitarians' event."
*********************************************************************

http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2010/09/09/news/18local_09-09-10.txt


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:06 AM

This guy is just a crazy preacher, the type that appears in many songs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:09 AM

Burning Bad Grammar is going to be the name of my new book! ;0) (Oops!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:07 AM

Christians burning The Koran.
Muslims buring The Bible.

There is no difference.

All that it shows is their are racist extremists in both religions.


True Christians are kind, peace-loving, compassionate and tolerant.
True Muslims are kind, peace-loving, compassionate and tolerant.

Those who seek to use religion to preach hate will do exactly that, on all sides, no matter what name the religion may have.

The Crazy Pastor is into Control and Idolisation, not of God, but of himself. Those who's religion preaches fear are purely into brainwashing...

There are little children in Iran who apparently are taught to spit on the American Flag each day, there were Muslim extremists in Gaza in 2007 who burnt Bibles, there's a crazy preacher in the US who wants to burn The Koran...

Those who want to hate, will do so.
Those who don't want to hate, will also do so.

Religion is no different from any other walk of life. It's about 'teams' with 'God' as the manager, allegedly, but of course, their God is controlled by the Corporate Directors of each team, who get him to fit in with their warped outlook on life.

I have always believed that the true 'God' is inside each and every one of us, without team name, without rules and regulations, other than Peace and Love. My 'God' needs no holy books to be read aloud by unholy men..My 'God' simply requires an acceptance of all Peoples, of all Faiths, from all backgrounds.


(Apart from those Bloomin' Corporate Bastards who want to buy Dover, of course!) LOL ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:03 AM

Lox,
"A man wants to burn the Koran and your response is to criticize Moslems."

I criticised the "man" in the most explicit of terms.
I also criticize the killing that some thought justified by the cartoons.
Don't you Lox?
I am also critical of those who think violence is justified by the actions of this twat.
Aren't you Lox?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM

It ALWAYS depends on the reaction of the "injured" party.

And it depends on whose books are being burned.

"Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses

Published June 18, 2007 by:
Kimberly West

After defeating their rivals in Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement, Muslim extremists are focusing their attacks on Christians in Gaza City. Christians in Gaza City have issued an appeal to the international community and a plea for protection against the increased attacks by Muslim extremists.

Father Manuel Musallem, head of Gaza's Latin church, told the AP that Muslims have ransacked, burned and looted a school and convent that are part of the Gaza Strip's small Romany Catholic community. He told the AP that crosses were broken, damage was done to a statue of Jesus, and at the Rosary Sister School and nearby convent, prayer books were burned.

Gunmen used the roof of the school during the fighting, and the convent was "desecrated," Mussalem told the AP.

"Nothing happens by mistake these days," he said.

Father Musalam additionally told The Jerusalem Post that the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on.

Catholic Online reports that the heads of Christian churches in the Holy Land have urged both sides to put aside their weapons, noting that the infighting diverted international attention from the national goal of Palestinian independence.

"This domestic fighting where brother draws his weapon against brother is detrimental to all the aspirations of achieving security and stability for the Palestinian people," they said. "In the name of the one and only God as well as in the name of each devastated Palestinian, many of whom are still dying, we urge our brothers in the Fatah and Hamas movements to listen to the voice of reason, truth and wisdom."

One young woman told the Catholic News Service that she was concerned the Islamic extremists would "enforce a strict dress code, forcing women to wear veils and robes." One Christian teenager spoke to the Catholic News Service on the condition that her name not be used. She said the days of fighting had been "very difficult" but they were "OK now."
"


So, can we isolate and marginalize ALL those who act as the Rev Jones did???


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM

"The intolerant religious right in USA is not globally newsworthy."

Wrong.

They are under close scrutiny, as is America, to see just how deep their influence is in American politics.

This is all in the context of the non-ground zero non-mosque.

The fact that its Moslems is irrelevant.

A specific demographic in the USA is being turned into a scapegoat for Americas woes.

The queston is, will America take the sane line and refuse to allow that kind of politics to dictate policy, or will it pander to Islamophobes.


Keith.

Islamophobia is a big issue in the UK and in the USA.

In our media, Moslems are pigeonholed, homogenized and singled out in a way that no other demographic is.


Once again, you purport to be neutral yet align yourself with the political right.

In that consistent point, You are completely dishonest.


A man wants to burn the Koran and your response is to criticize Moslems.

Get a life!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

{Muslims} have been the cause of the largest loss of American lives within the last nine years.

No, that honor goes to George W. Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM

"Emma, for every one of those you can find, there are others who are the opposite"

Kat, I'm quite aware that there are many people opposed to this proposed deliberately provocative action , on Facebook for example a protest group has now 252,572 members

While the very disturbing comments, such as the ones I quoted, may represent the views of a minority - according to Rev. Michael Kinnamon "only one corner of the Christian world." - it is, nevertheless, a strident hate fuelled minority and it is surely unwise to simply dismiss such emotive bigotry

Two years ago a similar protest by Fred Phelps passed without almost no attention
Why exactly is there such a media bandwagon at this time?

History reminds us that in periods of economic problems the media and mainstream politicians, as well as individual citizens, can easily latch on to fear of the 'other' even fellow citizens who may only 'look muslim'!

For example I read that

In Tennessee, while campaigning for the Republican nomination for governor in his state, Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey suggested arguably Islam is less a religion than "a nationality, way of life, or cult, whatever you want to call it" and, as such, may not be protected by the First Amendment.

and that

"Voters in Oklahoma this fall are being asked in a referendum to ban the use of Sharia, or Islamic, law in the state's courts, even though there has never been one instance of Sharia law being cited or used in the U.S., nor any request for Sharia law to be used in any court in the U.S."

Commenting on this journalist Ed Brayton said
"Another example of pure, unadulterated demagoguery. And you can bet it will work."


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:26 AM

I think the thread is turning in an 'ugly' direction.

Naming all the things that Moslems have done that are bad is not going to make this man's cause right. For every Moslem that has done something wrong there must be hundred's of thousands that have not. This man's 'stunt' has not just upset Moslems, it has upset all sensible people who wish for peace and who are fed up of relatives and friends ending up in body bags.

You can quote *some* Muslims who have burned flags but please try not to blame all Moslems for their actions. No more than the Moslems should blame us for this man's proposed actions.

Two wrongs never will make a right. Almost suggesting that this man should be allowed to do what he wanted because similar things have been done on the other side will never make for peace nor make sense.

'We' are the ones who are supposed to be trying to show the world that we wish for peace and that our ways are good. When has revenge ever done any good?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM

The intolerant religious right in USA is not globally newsworthy.
Nor are their antics, until now.
One obscure member has hit on a way to wind up the entire moslem world.
Newsworthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 06:57 AM

"but it is the predictable reaction of many moslems that makes the story newsworthy."

No it isn't Keith.

You are the only person who has gone on about that.

Everyone else I know thinks its about the intolerant religious right in the USA and their current offensive.

And believe me .. offensive is the right word for at least two reasons!


Boise,

"I don't seem to be able to find a thread here supporting these facts."

that is because your digestive tract was accidentally put in upside down so that when you catch a cold you need a colonic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 06:11 AM

In the case of the cartoons, muslims have been accused of publicising them to the otherwise unaware muslim world.

"Nonetheless, the Danish imams were sharply criticised by their own prime minister, Anders Rasmussen, for touring the Middle East with a 43-page dossier outlining what they called the racism and Islamophobia suffered by Muslims in Denmark.

Mr Rasmussen said he was "speechless", especially after it emerged that the dossier contained three extra and highly obscene images the delegates said were sent to Danish Muslims as hate mail."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/1509887/How-clerics-spread-hatred-over-cartoons.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 05:46 AM

Lox, "moslems" is not the answer to any of your questions, but it is the predictable reaction of many moslems that makes the story newsworthy.
If it were any other book, we would still have never heard of this twat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 05:37 AM

Keith,

How did this get into the papers?

Who put it there?

Why?

Who gave this guy all the attention?

Moslems?

Did Moslems know about him before or after the story was broken?

Was it predictable that Moslems "might" find it upsetting?

Was it predictable the non-Moslems "might" find it upsetting?

Is it predictable that wackos across America may well show support?

Who benefits from turning this into a political football and stiirring up fear and resentment.



You want the answer?

Its fucking obvious!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 03:19 AM

Hrothgar, you are right.
Extremists, fundamentalists and racists everywhere will have noticed how an obscure nobody can become headline news world wide.
We can not stop nutters burning Korans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:58 AM

I think the "Fire in a crowded theatre" analogy is off. More comparable is yelling "go ahead and shoot him I dare you" to a nutjob who is holding a gun to your neighbour's head. Then claiming, "Hey, I didn't shoot him. Don't look at me" when your neighbour gets his brains splattered onto the lawn.


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