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BS: Burning Korans

GUEST,Patsy 08 Sep 10 - 05:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Sep 10 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Sep 10 - 06:10 AM
kendall 08 Sep 10 - 06:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Sep 10 - 07:07 AM
GUEST,jonny sunshine 08 Sep 10 - 07:26 AM
Lox 08 Sep 10 - 07:33 AM
Lox 08 Sep 10 - 07:51 AM
Dave Hanson 08 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM
EBarnacle 08 Sep 10 - 08:27 AM
mousethief 08 Sep 10 - 09:02 AM
Lox 08 Sep 10 - 09:07 AM
dick greenhaus 08 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM
mousethief 08 Sep 10 - 10:02 AM
Emma B 08 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM
Ebbie 08 Sep 10 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,olddude 08 Sep 10 - 10:52 AM
Mrrzy 08 Sep 10 - 11:13 AM
katlaughing 08 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM
beardedbruce 08 Sep 10 - 11:25 AM
mauvepink 08 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 08 Sep 10 - 12:02 PM
mauvepink 08 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM
Ebbie 08 Sep 10 - 12:14 PM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM
Lonesome EJ 08 Sep 10 - 12:27 PM
BTNG 08 Sep 10 - 12:32 PM
Amos 08 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,erbert 08 Sep 10 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 08 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 08 Sep 10 - 12:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,EBarnacle 08 Sep 10 - 01:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 10 - 01:43 PM
Stringsinger 08 Sep 10 - 01:47 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 08 Sep 10 - 01:49 PM
Lox 08 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM
mousethief 08 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM
Lox 08 Sep 10 - 02:09 PM
mauvepink 08 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM
BTNG 08 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 08 Sep 10 - 03:03 PM
mousethief 08 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM
romanyman 08 Sep 10 - 03:21 PM
Lox 08 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM
BTNG 08 Sep 10 - 03:37 PM
mousethief 08 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM
Rapparee 08 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM
GUEST,mg 08 Sep 10 - 04:10 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 05:32 AM

I heard this on the news last night and this morning and couldn't wait to get into work anticipating the reaction on Mudcats. My reaction was 'here we go another stupid clergy male who was blessed with a mouth and no brain.' And it dawned on me the most dangerous things on this planet are MEN. Just go away!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:00 AM

"Huh? No religious nutters have ever gone to jail? No religious compounds have ever been burned down by the feds? Dude, religious nutters are held accountable for their actions"

The response of Society is not consistent - some literally get away with murder - viz abortion clinic terrorists. Then there was the Crusades - "Kill them all - let God sort them out" ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:10 AM

I wasn't aware that Jesus was particularly religious. There's certainly a massive faultline between the sublime things in his teachings and the ludicrous claims to divinity. I'm hanging desperately on to the wacky notion that the latter was all in the tendentious minds of the gospel writers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: kendall
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 06:37 AM

If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:07 AM

behaviour liable to lead to a breach of the peace


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,jonny sunshine
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:26 AM

I'd say let him start a fire, and let the fire be put out and the pastor and his pathetic congregation be soaked with buckets of water carried by a thousand people wearing T-shirts that say "What would Jesus do?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:33 AM

"If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance."

A classic Kendallism!

Keep 'em coming!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 07:51 AM

The real issue is - what's 'Joe the Plumber' going to do? Join in or condemn it?


How deep does this kind of feeling run?

How much poison does America have in its veins?


Are Moslems the new Jews, i.e. scapegoats for all occasions, to be bullied and intimidated and ultimately typecast as enemies of the state?

It all depends on who gets voted into office and who supports them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM

Only morons burn books.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 08:27 AM

"Are Moslems the new Jews, i.e. scapegoats for all occasions, to be bullied and intimidated and ultimately typecast as enemies of the state?"

"The nations of the world run on oil." Once the war in the Near East goes away, so will much of the vilification of Arabs and Muslims in general. Consider the panic which accompanied the rise of the Black Muslims in the United States. Now, except for a few crazy ministers, you rarely hear of them. Jews, as a small minority with few resources except our own brains and a long tradition of being "not like us," are always suspect, whether or not it is politically correct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:02 AM

Joe Plumber/Sixpack needs someone to blame for the crap going on in the country. We were told if we just work hard we can have a better life than our parents, and now that's falling apart, and the real reasons for it are complex and not amenable to soundbite treatment. What to do? What to do?

Cast around for a scapegoat. Comparisons to the Jews of 1930s Europe is very apt. It has to be someone's fault. For a bit there, the illegal immigrants of Arizona (is that a name for a rock group, or what?) took the heat off the Muslims, but now the eye of the irrational has swung back to the Muslims -- in part, alas, because of the non-ground zero non-mosque. And since there was intense hatred of Muslims just following 9/11 (mosques were bombed, IIRC -- a friend volunteered to walk little Muslim kids to school because people --grownup people-- were throwing things at them!), returning to reviling Muslims feels like coming home.

By the way, "cast around for a scapegoat" well describes some of the behaviour of the anti-religious on this thread, although their scapegoat is somewhat broader than just Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:07 AM

"Once the war in the Near East goes away, so will much of the vilification of Arabs and Muslims in general"

I put it to you eBarnacle that Arabs and Moslems have been villified as far back as the crusades.

Your seeming idea that scapegoating Jews is different to scapegoating Moslems and that we needn't worry about the scapegoating of moslems seems to suggest that we shouldn't take moslem scapegoating too seriously but that Jews need to be treated with special sensitivity.

I pt it to you that there are no differences in scapegoating any demographic, be it on religious or racial grounds and that you are wrong to draw that distinction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM

From a purely pragmatic point of view, the only things that Koran burning can accomplish are a)instill a smug "we showed 'em" attitude within the bosoms of the bookburners and b) provide an unbelievable PR boost to Quaeda, Taliban and all other Muslim America-haters, with a predictable response of increased violence against Americans abroad.
    Petraus, Clinton and many others have spoken out strongly against this proposed asct...to date, McCain, Palin, Boehner, McConnell, Bush, Cheney et al have not said a word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:02 AM

Petraus, Clinton and many others have spoken out strongly against this proposed asct...to date, McCain, Palin, Boehner, McConnell, Bush, Cheney et al have not said a word.

But to his credit (and to many's suspicion including my own), Glenn Beck has spoken against it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

While I could find no official population figures for religious affiliation in the United States, experts estimate that there are approximately six million American Muslims but the statements by the military do not seem primarily concerned with the effect upon these fellow citizens

U.S. military commanders have condemned the International plea to Burn the Qur'an Day

General David Petraeus, the U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, said in a statement
"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort,"
Lieutenant-General William Caldwell, commander of the NATO Training Mission in Afghanistan, added
"We very much feel that this could jeopardize the safety of our men and women that are serving over here,"
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs echoed the concerns raised by Petraeus. "Any type of activity like that that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration,"

Hilary Clinton has praised the joint statement by US religious leaders condemning what they described as an "anti-Muslim frenzy" in America which had been whipped up in part by "misinformation and outright bigotry" in response to plans to build an Islamic community centre and mosque close to the site of the 9/11 attacks in New York

However, it appears to date that the American Secretary of State remains the highest ranking US official to criticise the plans

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg - while calling the burning of the Muslim holy book "distasteful," - has defended the Florida pastor's decision because of his commitment to 'freedom of speech'

Although Jones has been denied a burning permit, he reported that his lawyers said that his First Amendment right to express his beliefs supersedes any local law or regulation

IT REMAINS AN EXCRUCIATING IRONY THAT, POSSIBLY, MANY PEOPLE MAY CONDEMN ALL OF A WORLD RELIGION BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF A FEW HATE FILLED EXTREMISTS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:50 AM

'The Scapegoats'- great name for a band.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 10:52 AM

It is not the way of Christianity, It is not the path of Christ. It is not the way of a billion peaceful Moslems. That group no more resembled Moslems then the so called Christian leader who gave poison koolaid to all those kids and followers of his ... This is not the path of Christ, he is a disgrace

Dan (cookie less at the moment)


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:13 AM

It's the same book as the Bible, isn't it, and the Torah or Talmud which I can't keep straight? I know it's the same god...


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM

Lox, that's not classic Kendall, unless the bumper sticker in support of educational funding was thought up by him years ago. (Meaning no disrespect to you, Kendal, it IS a good one!)

Dick, excellent points about who has spoken up and who hasn't. The silence is rather deafening, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:25 AM

Lox,

Defend? NO.

But it was legal, according to the laws at the time. As was the Holecaust- all legal, but WRONG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM

"And it dawned on me the most dangerous things on this planet are MEN"

That really is rather unfair on men. Throughout history there have been some quite strong and warmongering females.

Stupidity is not just the realm of men. Please do not condemn them all. Good men are dying every day in the name of peace. Now, whether it is actually FOR peace is another thing, but it is certainly in iit's name. Women too die I know.

There are good and bad on all sides of all genders. I don't mind living in a man's world as long as I can be a woman in it ;-)

It's a man's world


mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:02 PM

Angela Merkel seems to keep Germany in a pretty good state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM

When someone has the good grace to actually stand up for men being trod on unfairly, why do you feel it necessary to hit out and use the same kind of sexist remark I was trying to lessen? Incidentally it was not me who came out with the initial statement though your post seems to credit it to me. Perhaps I should have just let it pass in the first place.

This reply is as off topic as your question was so I will not be drawn further. I refer the right honourable gentleman to a stattement someone made earlier ;-)

and I DO NOT HAVE PMT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:14 PM

The fact that Guest/Boise doesn't dare use his name tends to corroborate the decline of men. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM

We really need Chongo's input on this. He's an expert on gender relations. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:27 PM

these Quorans are nothing but bundles of paper. There is nothing sacred about any book, including the Bible. Funny thing here is the Rev doing the burning and the Islamic fundamentalists who are outraged have more in common with each other than with any of the rest of us. I only have one problem with Quoran-burning...it should be done in a nice stone fireplace in Colorado in the winter when it can truly do some good.
As for religion, the Buddhists seem to have it right...nothing endures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: BTNG
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:32 PM

First they burned the books, then they burned the authors....


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM

Guest Boise is a troll, and should not be fed.

The examples of fine female leadership in human history are legion: Cleopatra, Bella Abzug, Jeanne d'Arc, Ms Thatcher (arguable, true), Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel. Come on. That's a silly thread-creep.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:42 PM

.. this week Korans..


what next ?..


Heretics and Witches

.. and..   farm animals possessed by demons ??????


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM

Little Hawk: Your following remark makes a lot of sense!

"How do we get God to confirm that he agrees with that pastor's actions, Tunesmith? ;-)"

And I would like to ask how we get God to confirm what he said to Abraham, Moses and all the rest of those chaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:48 PM

First they burned the books, then they burned the authors...

See, if not quoted quite correctly, Heinrich Heine was bound to be invoked at some point. And so he should.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM

I'd imagine the two results this blasphemous "minister" is hoping to achieve would be

a)media attention, which tends to translate into moneymaking opportunities
b)a violent response by his opposite numbers among Muslims, preferably including some dead Americans, which would translate into an increase in Islamophobia in America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,EBarnacle
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:09 PM

Lox, my point is consistency of hatred.

Even the Evangelists do not love us as Jews. They love us as means to an end; when all of the Jews have returned to the Holy Land and are standing shoulder to shoulder, the Final Days will have arrived and they can be transported to Heaven, where no one but Christians will be allowed.

As a rule, Jews have been scapegoated, hated and feared for the past two millenia because of a refusal to assimilate and integrate and be "Just Like Us." That is our reality. Due to the Diaspora and various mass killings, some smaller, some larger, the local Jewish population has been a convenient target to hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM

3/4 of a million people in Gainesville. Only 50 members of this guy's church. Made into a big story by the press.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:43 PM

That's right, Tunesmith. We can't confirm ANY kind of inner event (by "inner", I mean something that occurs but does not have measurable, observable phenomena that someone else can see or measure). We can only confirm outer events which yield data.

This does not mean that inner events aren't real, however. I have just had a whole series of inner thoughts and emotions which really did occur, and I know they did. But neither you nor I nor anyone else can provide documentary evidence of them. Still, I know that they occurred. And that they were a real occurence. But I can't prove it. Nor can anyone else.

That is the nature of spiritual things too. They are very much like thoughts. They occur, and the person who experiences them knows it when they occur, but there is absolutely no way of proving their existence to anyone else. You can only go by personal testimony, and people will believe it or not believe it generally according to their prior prejudices or beliefs about such matters.

And that's where any human being's experience of God or anything spiritual resides...strictly in a form of inner personal experience that can neither be proven or disproven.

Therefore, if there is a God, it would be downright silly to expect that God to show up and state that He, She or It agrees or doesn't agree with something someone else said. You can't get confirmation of an inner thought from an exterior source, and you shouldn't expect to.

So the people who are attempting to say that there is no God because they haven't seen anything to prove there is are attempting to do something ridiculous...like write down something with a ballpoint pen on the air in their room. It's a complete non-sequitor. You cannot prove or disprove subjectivity, you can only prove or disprove objectivity. Nevertheless, subjectivity plays a real part in out lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:47 PM

It's too late. The nutcase has publicity already and the Muslim world is reacting with anger.

Book burning is the device of fascists. I call these Gainsville churchgoers, Theofascists.

It's a "Crystalnacht" for American Muslims.

Has anyone ever been to Boise, Idaho? (Well then, what do you expect?)

Golda Meier did OK for Israel at one time.

The problem is that the thinking of Guest/Boise is predicated on the fact that creative woman leadership has been denigrated by a prejudiced male society that won't even accept the logical amendment to the Constitution, namely the Equal Rights Amendment.
In other lesser roles than presidents or prime ministers, women have done very well.
Their talent should make it obvious that they would serve well in positions that have
been given to men as leaders. I think of Barbara Jordan and others who would have made excellent presidents of the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 01:49 PM

Make no mistake, this clergy person is nutty. He would do better, since he has a problem with it, to study the Quran and refute it if he can.

That said, each group and person is responsible for their own actions. Any group or person which/who would riot, maim, kill or otherwise harm others because of his actions, or destroy property is as nutty as he is, and a lot more dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

Bruce,

I am grateful that you have clarified that you do not defend the Koran burning.

However, I must ask you to be careful with what you write for the following reason.

you say:

"But it was legal, according to the laws at the time. As was the Holecaust- all legal, but WRONG."

But your original point was:

"IMO they have the right to burn them- as the Afghans have the right to burn bibles. But I do not think it to be a wise move."

Your original opinion was that he had the right to do it.

That wasn't a legal point but youe opinion.

I have no doubt you didn't mean that 'If something is legal then you have a right to do it'

Otherwise, by your own words, if the holocaust was legal then the Nazis had a right to inflict it.


Now I know that isn't your opinion, but I do wish you would take the time to consider your posts before committing yourself.


In my opinion, burning books is symptomatic of a dangerous mindset.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM

The problem is that the thinking of Guest/Boise is predicated on the fact that creative woman leadership has been denigrated by a prejudiced male society that won't even accept the logical amendment to the Constitution, namely the Equal Rights Amendment.

More than half the voting public in the US are women. You can't pin this one on the men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:09 PM

"As a rule, Jews have been scapegoated, hated and feared for the past two millenia because of a refusal to assimilate and integrate and be "Just Like Us." That is our reality."

Actually, these criticisms are levelled at every scapegoat.

Moslems in the UK "refuse to integrate to be just like us" (catter Ake is one of the first to defend this assertion) and in France they are forced to wear western clothes. In holland they have to pay a tax to wear moslem clothes. in the USA they are being hounded out of their property ...

... Roma's in France "refusing to integrate" have been paid off by the french government to leave the country ...

Either we discriminate on grounds of Race/religion or we don't.

Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM

Today I was chatting to two Muslim shop owners. They were man and wife. We got talking about this latest attempt to try and upset any peace and respect "that most sensible have for each other" the word (their words). They never used religion once. They did talk of feelings and concerns. They also acknowledged that they know this is an attempt to cause offence and upset. They personally would not hold others responsible for such an outrage. They would feel upset if they saw people they knew burning bibles.

We then got to talking to about those affected by the floods in Pakistan.

At no time was their language or demeanour anything other than friendly. At no time was what they said in any way threatening or hateful. We were simply common people with common sense with a common hope for peace in the world and respect for other's feelings.

I wish there was so much more of this worldwide

It is true that a book is just paper. But then so is a photograph. So are letters. So is money! But when that paper holds 'special' meaning to its owner THEN it has a value beyond the ordinary. Burning scared scripts is as insulting to those who respect that script as it is to burn a flag of a country.

I have not heard one person today that said they thinkthis idea is a good one. No-one seems to back this man. Why can they not find some law to stop him in his tracks? The symbolism that he is attempting to raise by this stunt can bring with it no good... it's quite evil :-(

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: BTNG
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM

Here's another one from Heinrich Heine:

" Christ rode on an ass, but now asses ride on Christ."

and...(this time the correct quote)
" Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings."


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:03 PM

Little Hawk, but as always, Christians want it both ways. They believe that Abraham ( a dreadful child abuser) had direct contact with God, but think that Pastor Jones is some sort of nut case!

And who's to say that those nutters that flew in to the Twin Towers didn't have direct contact with God? After all, God inspired Joshua to attack and destroy Jericho!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM

BTNG: here's one:

The difference between St Stephen and modern fundamentalists is the direction the rocks are flying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: romanyman
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:21 PM

there have been more wars fought over religion than anything, so lets ban all religion, simple


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM

Apart from Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc ...

All of whom were Atheist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: BTNG
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:37 PM

mousethief..Fantastic! love it! I really am tempted to get a t-shirt made up with that on it

cheers,
BTNG


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM

there have been more wars fought over religion than anything, so lets ban all religion, simple

Yeah because then everybody would become good, and beat their swords into ploughshares, and nobody would study war any more.

Naive a bit, are we?

@BTNG: Cheers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM

If these idiots go through with it, AND because of it NATO troops or civilians in or from NATO countries die, couldn't they be charged with inciting the murder?


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Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Sep 10 - 04:10 PM

I doubt it but I sure hope the fire marshall is on hand and is diligent about burning permits etc.

I also think perhaps..maybe it is already done..that others buy a Koran that day to help compensate for this.

It seems to me it is a hate crime but since it is not a crime to burn a book I suppose perhaps it does not qualify. mg


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