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BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled

sapper82 21 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM
mauvepink 21 Aug 10 - 02:04 PM
catspaw49 21 Aug 10 - 10:26 AM
Emma B 21 Aug 10 - 10:19 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Aug 10 - 09:38 AM
leeneia2 21 Aug 10 - 09:28 AM
Ebbie 20 Aug 10 - 11:25 PM
catspaw49 20 Aug 10 - 11:22 PM
Ebbie 20 Aug 10 - 10:35 PM
jeddy 20 Aug 10 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,mg 20 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM
Mooh 20 Aug 10 - 03:05 PM
Ebbie 20 Aug 10 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,mg 20 Aug 10 - 02:50 PM
kendall 20 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Aug 10 - 03:17 AM
catspaw49 20 Aug 10 - 03:11 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Aug 10 - 02:58 AM
LadyJean 20 Aug 10 - 01:21 AM
catspaw49 20 Aug 10 - 01:00 AM
Ebbie 19 Aug 10 - 11:52 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Aug 10 - 10:32 PM
Emma B 19 Aug 10 - 09:18 PM
jeddy 19 Aug 10 - 09:09 PM
jeddy 19 Aug 10 - 08:55 PM
The Fooles Troupe 19 Aug 10 - 08:38 PM
Charley Noble 19 Aug 10 - 08:29 PM
jeddy 19 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Aug 10 - 06:32 PM
Ebbie 19 Aug 10 - 05:59 PM
Smokey. 19 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM
Paul Burke 19 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM
Ebbie 19 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Aug 10 - 04:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Aug 10 - 04:48 PM
akenaton 19 Aug 10 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM
greg stephens 19 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Aug 10 - 03:56 PM
Ebbie 19 Aug 10 - 03:54 PM
Smokey. 19 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 19 Aug 10 - 03:32 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Aug 10 - 02:12 PM
Ebbie 19 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM
leeneia2 19 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM
Paul Burke 19 Aug 10 - 01:34 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: sapper82
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM

From my own recollection of the case, this appears to have been a "doctors & nurses" or "show me yours and I'll show you mine" game that may have been taken a bit far by the children and an over reaction by the girl's parent and the authorities.
Children have experimented in this way for generations, much to the consternation of the parents who find out, but seldom does it cause problems.

Also, there appears to have been none of the sadistic visciousness of the Bulger or more recent Doncaster cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 02:04 PM

The best that can be hoped for now, once the court has finished with them, is that there will be people on their case to look at and assist if help is needed.

They are all under a microscope that one would hope will find answers and give them all the help they need.

Continuing to shout "Hang them high" is of no use, along with other such cruel treatments and suggestions, so maybe it is best now to let those in a position to help to do just that.

We will never know the FACTS as we are fed what those who do the feeding feed us.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 10:26 AM

Thanks Emma for all of your informative posts.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 10:19 AM

The identity of all three children is quite rightly (IMO) protected

However the information we DO have states

"They lived just a few doors apart.
Their estate, made up mostly of semis and low-rise flats in the shadow of Heathrow Airport, is certainly not an inner-city hell hole.

And although the two 10 year old boys and the 8 year old girl at the centre of the story are from broken homes, there was nothing in their background to suggest what might happen on October 27 last year.

Regular playmates, they met that day around lunchtime.
There was no school because it was half term.

Boy A and Boy B were often left unsupervised outside. The girl, however, was not supposed to go out of earshot of her mother without permission. On this occasion, she broke the rule."

All three children gave different scenarios of what happened

However there were no injuries to the girl's genital area and no forensic evidence linking the boys to the girl or to her clothing, which was examined for DNA.

One of the boys is described as struggling academically.
"He was at a special school for children with a range of behavioural problems, including attention deficit hyperactivity disorders. The youngster had been expelled from his last school; he wasn't a bad kid, they said, just disruptive."

The other boy was described in a statement to the court by his teacher
'He is not a bully nor has he ever displayed bullying tendencies towards other children. He has never exhibited sexual behaviour towards other chilcalldren, members of the teaching staff or anybody else. He has never exhibited any behaviour that has caused me any concern.'

The jury was told that both accused boys - even Boy 'B' whose mother it was claimed could be aggressive and foul-mouthed and possibly a drug user, were of 'good character'.

The debate about whether the trial should have gone to The Old Bailey - the Central Criminal Court in England which deals with major criminal cases from Greater London and, in exceptional cases, from other parts of England - rather than being more effectively dealt with by Children's panels, as happens elsewhere in the UK, is still being debated

Accusing the English of an 'addiction to juvenile punishment' the former Director of Public Prosecutions, Sir Ken Macdonald, questioned the decision to put the boys on trial atall.

Writing in the Times newspaper, he said: 'We've been witnessing a spectacle that has no place in an intelligent society.
Very young children do not belong in adult criminal court, they rarely belong in criminal courts at all.'


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 09:38 AM

One boy's mother gave him loving support in court, and stroked his face and gave him a kiss after the sentence. The other's, it was reported, was far more distant, and left court ahead of him, so he had to run to keep up. It was commented that they were both of above average educational attainments for their ages, the first being particularly able.

Each, it will be noted, attended court with his mother: no fathers were in evidence. On the other hand, both appeared to be well cared for, and one at least much loved.

That's all I know from what I have read. But neither appeared neglected or ill-treated or badly brought up so far as one could see.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: leeneia2
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 09:28 AM

There are three little words that would bring people so much peace of mond, if they would only use them. Not 'I love you,' but 'I don't know.'

Have these boys been sexually abused? Beaten? Given drugs?

I don't know.

Have they been exposed to pornography, perhaps every day?

I don't know.

Are they retarded? Brain damaged?

I don't know.

Do they have a stable family? Attend school? Are they being bounced from one dysfunctional household to another? Or are they basically trying to raise themselves on the street?

I don't know.

None of us know. So given all that, why are we joining the wrangle and raising our blood pressure?

I don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:25 PM

Oh dear. That's right.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 11:22 PM

When they live in Dickie Bridge World.................


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 10:35 PM

Well, this is the second time I went looking for actual information on this incident.

Most of the sites don't let me in but one that has identifiers like 'yessir' and 'Think about it' appears to me like the worst kind of 'journalism'. Since I know nothing about her or him, I may be wrong but s/he raises the hackles on my neck.

For instance, there is a link to this: UK – Youngest Member Of Child Sex Rings only 9 Month Old.


What? A nine month old baby is a MEMBER of a sex ring? Just how precocious are your children over there? For all I know- and it wouldn't surprise me - the child is one of the ring leaders.

(Since when is a baby not a victim?)


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: jeddy
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 10:19 PM

correct me if i am wrong, but wasn't there a threat of not getting her bike back if she didn't take her underwear off?

does this threat not sound familiar to you all?
if you don't do as you are told you won't be going...getting...doing.

i don't think it takes a genius to understand where that came from.

x x x x x   
j


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

I think the claim was attempted rape. I have not read the materials. Call it assault if they touched her, if indeed something happened. The girl could be totally at fault here and boys totally innocent. I do not know. If they didn't touch her but still threatened her that is still some sort of abuse. Let's be theoretical here, because I for sure do not know what happened. I know that stuff like this does happen, and a good talking to is only the first of many steps that should be taken, and another step is that they should be under constant, unrelenting supervision. Kids are running loose and all sorts of stuff is happening at very young ages. If they try this at age 10, what will they be like at age 15? Done playing doctor? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:05 PM

Ten year old children can be such followers. I wonder which one of the two was the leader. Were they seen as equals?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 02:57 PM

So far as I can tell, no one is claiming penetration Without penetration, there is no rape. It is the outcome of only a few possible things: mimicking what they have seen or heard about through intimidation or force, or encouragement and cooperation.

The disparaged 'good talking to' seems a good option to me. Talking with, rather than 'to' being the operative phrase.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 02:50 PM

This is an extremely serious matter. If children are abusing children in US, report to Child Protective and police...report to schools, which are getting better about crimes being done in schools..not sure if this was or was not..sounds not.

It is not enough to say don't execute them..if they did what they are accused of, they need extreme intervention and supervision, probably custodial. If the girl made a false accusation, likewise.

This is not playing doctor, if it happened. Ten year olds do not play doctor. Five year olds play doctor. Ten year olds growing up in the cesspools many of them do are doing something else..mimicing, or following impulses they don't control, early puberty or whatever. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: kendall
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM

And how about girls that are the instigator? It's not always the boys!


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:17 AM

"but there are excepts to the rule, that won't look at the train"

From my recollection of the research, all looked, all denied.

Of course, I can't find the research, so if someone else can, and show that I am mistaken, I'd love the link.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:11 AM

"They'd make better soap than they would human beings."

More than enough said.



Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 02:58 AM

"talking to"!

Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 01:21 AM

When I was 10, I knew that stealing was wrong, because my parents told me so, and because they did not take things that didn't belong to them, or say it was clever of others to do so. Parents must not only teach, the have to set an example.

I was the only girl in school to have breasts and pubic hair, and I suffered a fair amount of grief from that, from creepy little boys who were learning the facts of life from their fathers' porno magazines. Want to bet that those two boys had access to some raunchy stuff too.

One little creep pulled up my skirt and pulled down my panties. I told my mom. She told me to tell the principal, so I went to the principal's office and told him, by myself. Mom was home doing I don't know what.

The principal gave the little creep a good talking to. So did our teacher. Matter settled. I don't suppose it would have gone that way these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 01:00 AM

What a pathetic and yet typical lawyer's attitude. Once again it is obvious to damn near everyone but these fuckin' jadrools that "the law" is always behind fields that touch us all such as medicine and psychology.

Assholes in the bullshit legal dodge can't see past their long noses. I have yet to see anything about these kids in terms of psych evals and testing for Fetal Alcohol/Drug possibilities or for amnything else for that matter.

There is an unavoidable truth here. "We" created the problems and we are the ones who must solve them. Those who suggest "culling them off" should be first to go themselves.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:52 PM

You're right, Richard. I say, burn them at the stake. But behead them first; nothing worse than a head - hell, I can't even say it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:32 PM

No. The actus reus is the act itself, the mens rea is the intent to do the act. In some cases, crimes of specific intent, the prosecution must also prove the presence of the specific intent. In general, in proving mens rea and specific intent, there is a presumption that a person intends the likely consequences of their actions, although there are twists on that.

The argument that the poor little darlings are only doing what they have learned is no more valid for children than it is true for those over 10 or 14. The judge specifically found that the children knew that what they did was wrong. He then rightly recited that the law required him to do what was in the best interests of the children. In that he failed since the supervision order will achieve nothing, and the rule itself is flawed since the rational rule would be to do what was in the best interests of society, taking account of the best interests of the child.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:18 PM

This time last year I was unfortunate to be a member of a Jury on a murder trial

Tragically a witness to the attack was a child of 7/8 who was interviewed by the police on video tape shortly after the fatality
Although I winced at some of the 'leading questions' the testimony of the child, while obviously the 'truth,' as he understood it (having been woken up by the noise) was at distinct odds with some of the physical evidence.

It is important to remember that children too often do give the answer most likely to satisfy/please the questioner when conducting interviews with young witnesses (or the accused ) and they don't always understand the concepts of the truth the whole truth etc

"remove the rule and permit the child to prove that it did not know that what was done was wrong"

Richard isn't this just another form of presumption of guilt until proved innocent?


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzS_k2_fdpk

the big personality test from child of our times. sorry i haven't got he hang of clickies.
x x x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:55 PM

good point foolstroupe, but there are excepts to the rule, that won't look at the train, or won't eat the one sweet now, for a promise of two sweets later.

not sure what country you are in, but here in the UK there is a BBC programme called child of our times. catching up with kids every severn years.
if you missed it, this is a wonderful example of how much kids differ.
x x x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:38 PM

"The point is that children's perception of wrongness is different from those with more mature minds."

Research has established that all children are driven to give the answer that they think that is 'wanted' - 'seeking approval'. This is why some little horrors can excel at 'manipulating the system' - for they then discover that they can 'avoid consequences'.

Have you never seen that footage of the child being seated, back to the big train set covered with a cloth, that they must not look at. The assistant then uncovers it, and suddenly has to leave the room. "You can look when I come back." The child promises to not look. Every child, when alone, looks, even if creatively briefly, then all deny having looked at all - 'promise!'. For they all know that the 'correct' answer to 'did you look' must be 'no' to gain approval.

This is how our internal hard wired rule sets work - this is humanity!

Education and experience establishes with most older people accept that there are overriding 'absolutes', such as 'telling the _truth_', 'obeying the rules' etc. This we call 'maturity'.

Some adults never accept these concepts. And for many, no 'punishment', even 'denial of privileges' will deter them.

It has been suggested that these 'failed humans' should be eliminated without mercy. The problem is that once you set off down this path, this is a loss of our very humanity .... and it is not all 'set in the genes', for their children may not always follow the path of their filial examples.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:29 PM

I do wonder what Richard has to confess.

Maybe we'll find out when he starts a new thread.

I'm not holding my breath.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM

hey crow sister, nice to see you again.
i have to say i am impressed at your last post. it is not easy to tell others of the behaviours we are ashamed of.
i WAS exactly the same, with the dogs. i have a much better handle on my temper nowadays, but still it gets the better of me and i slap them. normally because they won't go into time out when i call them (being on a lead in the hallway and ignored).

as i firmly believe that dogs have the understanding of very young children, they know whats coming and don't want it, but they don't register that by not coming to me they are actually making things worse.
before you all start thinking me a monster, i will ask you to remember, the only way i was delt was as a kid was to get slapped for being even the slightest bit cheeky. it was and in dire anger still is the habit i fall back into.

these boys will not learn anything if you throw them into a young offenders institusion(?) and forget about them. serious work needs doing with them. to find out why they tried what they did (not that i have read the full report yet) and what can be done to make sure they understand and are educated to avoid future incidents.

love to all
jade x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:32 PM

When I was ten I was very cruel to my cat. I regularly hurt and tormented her, deliberately.

I look back at those behaviours now and find them hard to comprehend. Especially as I'm a cat lover, and as an adult, I'm very gentle with my animals and I'd be horrified if they got hurt by some 'nasty little ten year old brute'.

Even though I recall my cruel ten year old behaviours, I wince at them now. And I don't recall or understand the motivation behind them, nor do I recall questioning the rightness or wrongness of them.

The only way I've understood it, is because I was treated the same way as a child.

That may not be the case for all children who transgress our social codes, but I also believe that children are not generated in a morally pure vacuum.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:59 PM

If Richard is having a spot of trouble with comprehension perhaps I should answer my own question:

"To take it further: if you were caught and convicted of running a stop light and given a 10- year prison sentence for it, would you understand its gravity?"

Answer: No. You would not. You would think that your world had suddenly gone mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM

Alien abduction, that's what I reckon.
Though judging by the rape fantasy, internet fatigue.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM

knowing little villains

What they know at that age is attitudes that they've learned, and techniques. Their agenda is something quite unfathomable, and is I suspect usually defensive at its root.

The "wickedness" of small children is what they have learned from their parents, older people, and society around them. Apparently evil children are a reflection of a really evil society. Can you tell children not to bully others, when it's obvious that adults who bully get on and succeed? Not to play sex games, when almost every product is sold using this sex that is clearly so powerful, yet they don't understand it? Not to cheat, when everybody else does?

Richard, your condemnation of these children is, if you have any self awareness (and I know you have), a condemnation of your own failures and those of the society we live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM

If this really is Richard, that is a real pity.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM

Richard, you are missing the whole point. Which is odd, considering you studied law.

The point is that children's perception of wrongness is different from those with more mature minds. That has long been established.

It is not that children don't know when something is bad but that they tend to think in terms of getting away with it or of getting caught and punished. Perhaps it is kind of analogous to an adult running a stop light. To take it further: if you were caught and convicted of running a stop light and given a 10- year prison sentence for it, would you understand its gravity?

A child is simply not capable of the full realization of trauma lasting a lifetime, whether their own or someone else's.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:50 PM

There were two doli incapax rules. The irrebuttable presumption of innocence conclusively presumed that a child below the age of ten could not have criminal intent.

There used to be a rebuttable presumption of innocence, applying to children from 10 to 14. This required the prosecution to prove that the child knew what it had done was wrong.

The latter rule was abolished in 1998.

The former rule is also wrong. There may well be an age below which a child knows no wrong, but surely we all have met knowing little villains who exploit the immunity up to the age of 10. The simple answer would be to remove the rule and permit the child to prove that it did not know that what was done was wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:48 PM

Is this a case of some troll hijacking Richard Bridge's Mudcat name? Because that's what it sounds like.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:36 PM

Were we(my school friends and I), the only children in this country to play "doctors and nurses"?

These games were not encouraged by our parents, but looking back they were all part of the discovery process....we played them anyway, because children are curious...we never learned much about sex ...in fact we didn't know what sex was, but curiosity had to be solved

I think todays parents need to grow up even more than the children do and some of the posts on here are beyond contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM

Not all solutions can be found in a courtroom though. They deal with guilt and innocence but the actual work starts after the sentancing... or should do. If we are to have a rehabilitation type system - one not just meant for revenge and punishment - then these boys now need better help than they already have. Writing them off is surely not part of a guilty verdict?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM

Do you remember at what age you started thinking about tying up white boys and...all that other stuff? And why white boys, exactly? Do you think that post was normal? I know lots of people harbour strange and dark fantasies, I'm sure we all do at times: but writing them up on a folk forum seems, well, disturbing. I am with Spaw, I have seem some stuff on Mudcat that that was too much.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM

They were found guilty of attempted rape. That involves a finding that they know what they were doing was wrong. The burden of proof in criminal matters is "beyond reasonable doubt".   So what is a supervision order going to achieve? To make sure that the little attempted rapists don't forget that what they already knew was wrong was wrong? Basically, they were let off.

Sure, I remember when I was 10 too. Who doesn't?


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:56 PM

Yes, Smokey...

as in my reply above

hence the "no offence" to clarify I, too, was taking it ironically

:-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:54 PM

I agree with Smokey. I think Little Hawk twisted his mouth when he said that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM

I think there may have been an element of irony to the original Hitler comment..


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM

Shakespeare looms up before me...

Dick :"First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"

Cade: Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable
thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should
be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled
o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings:
but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal
once to a thing, and I was never mine own man
since. How now! who's there?

(Shakespeare's Henry VI, part 2)

The first line is often the one quoted but i think what is imprtant is Cade's reply. You can interpret it a couple of ways I suppose

Good job no-one does as Dick suggests huh?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

Hitler "was very strongminded when it came to moral issues"

This would be the same Hitler that tried to get rid of a whole race of people along with anyone who was disabled (physically and memtally), anyone gay... anyone who did not agree with his master plan?

I think we need to discuss the definition of what being moral is if this is the case

no offence

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:32 PM

Why stop worshipping children?

I worship my daughter and granddaughgter. I am not ashamed to say so. That does not mean I would excuse any bad deeds they did or have not 'had words' over any naughty behaviours as they grew up. Worshipping your children, and others for that matter, is not about excusing things they do wrong. It is very much about teaching them what is right/wrong, appropriate/inappropriate, whilst allowing them the chance to develop their own value system and respecting their points of view.

People seem to struggle these days on where to draw the line between dicipline and abuse. Fact is I believe all good parents know exactly where that line is but may not be able to define it.

I have been blessed by my daughter and granddaughter's life. They have never caused me troubles or gotten into trouble. They. too, have seemed to know where not to cross a line. When they got close to a bondary it was reinforced and explained. Children seem to love having solid, consitent boundaries to grow up around.

Nothing wrong in worshipping children nor holding them on a pedestal. What we need do is stop thinking we adults have all the answers. I used to say there is not right way to bring up a child. There are lots of bad ways. But for the grace of God go I....

As a parent I made mistakes I have not made as a grandparent. My daughter still loves me and she now knows why I had to do some of the things I did back then. I did not always get it right but when I got it wrong I apologised and tried to make up for it.

If we are not to worship our children who are we left to worship? Those children are who hold tomorrow's answers...

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 02:12 PM

Hitler didn't marry his Niece, but he caused her to commit suicide through his obsessive control over her. One can but wonder what went on there..


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM

I'll have to go back and read history. I thought he was in obvious love with his niece- I don't remember that they married.


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: leeneia2
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM

"Hitler's reaction to this would have been similarly violent and final, I expect. He'd have turned those boys into "soap". He was very strongminded when it came to moral issues."

You mean the Hitler that married his own niece?


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Subject: RE: BS: 10 year old rapists get coddled
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 01:34 PM

Even the facts are somewhat confused. The girl withdrew her testimony, saying she had made it up because she was afraid she's be in trouble from her mother. The retraction could of course not be true, but it's not at all obvious that anything worse than bullying and naughty play took place:

"An eight-year-old girl alleged to have been sexually assaulted by two 10-year-olds has told the Old Bailey that the boys did not rape her.

She said she had lied to her mother about what had happened because she had been "naughty" and was worried she would not get any sweets. " - BBC News, 13th May 2010.

On the other hand, we could go back to hanging children, like they did in the 17th century.


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