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Origin: Sally Gardens

DigiTrad:
DOWN IN A WILLOW GARDEN
DOWN IN MY SALLY'S GARDEN
SALLY GARDENS


Related threads:
Andy Irvine: You Rambling Boys of Pleasure (Yeats) (23)
Song of Wandering Aengus Discography (21)
BS: W.B, Yeats - how can I get to know him (22)
(origins) Origin: The Song of Wandering Aengus (Yeats) (39)
Tune Req: The Lake Isle of Innisfree (W. B. Yeats) (14)
Yeats poems set to music (28)
Lyr Add: Sally Gardens (W.B. Yeats) (23)
Lyr Req/Add: The Host of the Air (W. B. Yeats) (12)
Lyr Add: Sally's Garden (parody) (4)
Obit: Michael Yeats (1921-2007)[son of W.B. Yeats] (4)
Chord Req: Down By the Salley Gardens (7)
Help: Yeats (53)
Tune Req: Maids of the Mountain Shore/Sally Garden (4)
Tune Req: Yeats/Colleen Bawn (4)
Lyr Req: Stolen Child (Yeats) (5)
W.B. Yeats (1865-1939) (11)
Lyr Req: Sally Garden / Sally Gardens (18)
Lyr Add: Stolen Child (Yeats, McKennitt) (3)


Steve Gardham 02 Oct 16 - 06:18 PM
Taconicus 20 Aug 10 - 12:53 PM
Taconicus 20 Aug 10 - 12:48 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 01 Apr 10 - 02:21 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 10 - 01:43 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 10 - 01:23 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Apr 10 - 01:20 PM
Tootler 01 Apr 10 - 12:12 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 01 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM
mikesamwild 01 Apr 10 - 08:10 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 10 - 08:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 31 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 10 - 06:05 PM
Stilly River Sage 31 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 10 - 08:44 AM
Effsee 30 Mar 10 - 11:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 Mar 10 - 11:19 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 Mar 10 - 04:15 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 10 - 03:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 30 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM
meself 30 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM
The Sandman 30 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM
Penny S. 30 Mar 10 - 01:13 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 30 Mar 10 - 12:55 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 10 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Mar 10 - 04:40 AM
Stilly River Sage 30 Mar 10 - 12:57 AM
Stilly River Sage 30 Mar 10 - 12:41 AM
meself 30 Mar 10 - 12:31 AM
Uncle Phil 29 Mar 10 - 08:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM
MartinRyan 29 Mar 10 - 02:56 PM
mikesamwild 29 Mar 10 - 02:42 PM
The Sandman 29 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM
The Sandman 29 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM
meself 29 Mar 10 - 02:25 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Mar 10 - 08:50 AM
Uncle Phil 29 Mar 10 - 01:59 AM
Uncle Phil 29 Mar 10 - 01:58 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM
Tootler 28 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM
Tootler 28 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 10 - 11:41 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 10 - 09:17 PM
Tootler 27 Mar 10 - 08:56 PM
mikesamwild 27 Mar 10 - 02:18 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Mar 10 - 02:17 PM
mikesamwild 27 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Oct 16 - 06:18 PM

The earliest extant version (1784) has 'Sally's Garden'. There were many pleasure gardens like Ranelagh, Vauxhall, Covent, Cupar's in the large cities in the 18th century and one of the main features was singing. In fact a large number of our folk songs can be traced back to these entertainments, particularly those love songs that used flowery language. Dublin, Edinburgh, London had these pleasure gardens.

The earliest versions of Rambling Boys of Pleasure c1810 didn't have this verse. It wasn't joined to the RBOP verses until about 1850.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Taconicus
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:53 PM

In the '63 Arkansas version linked above, burgaloo wine seems to have evolved to burglar's wine, and sabre (saber) is pronounced sabe-ree.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Taconicus
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:48 PM

Rose Connelly (Down in the Willow Garden) seems to be an American variation/offshoot of the Irish Down in the Salley Gardens, though with a very different (and gory) story line. The tunes are similar as well. Here's a 1963 recording of Rose Connelly from Mountain Home, Arkansas which uses the burgaloo wine (Virginia pear wine) lyric.

BTW, a Scots dictionary also shows Sally or salley as meaning (or a pronunciation of) sallow (from the Middle English salwe), meaning the sallow tree, a type of willow tree.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:21 PM

Thanks for those!   With regard to "manky", I wonder does it come from French, "manquer", since this would accord with the sense of "insufficient" &c.?

But what of the Sally Gardens?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:43 PM

... &, on further recollection & in interests of accuracy, my friend sang 3rd line as "If bum-bailey do come" {rather than "landlord"}.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:23 PM

... above song about clarty windows to tune of 'Oranges·&·Lemons', btw.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:20 PM

"Manky", I recall from National Service in early 1950s, was the common, non-regional, army adjective for insufficiently clean and smart kit.

"Clarty" {& associated verb "clart" ~ as in

"We're down here in t'cellar ay, where muck clarts up t'winders;
We've burned all our coals up & we're now burning cinders.
If landlord he do come then he'll never find* us;
For we're down here in t'cellar ay, where muck clarts up t'winders"

which I learned from an army & Cambridge friend from Salford, Lancashire}

appears to be quite widespread Northern English as well as Scots.

*[pron with short 'i']


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tootler
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 12:12 PM

You find manky and clarty in North East England as well


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM

Well, "sale" in French is approximately the equivalent of "dirty" in English English (Scots English would have "maukit", "manky", "clarty" or "clatty"), and it would be relatively easy to trace the route to "salacious"; no doubt there's a Latinate origin, too.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:10 AM

I accept the loan word to Irish from Latin. What's its Indo-Europen origin to Latin and why does salacious mean naughty? Iis it from the same root as salty. Is willow bark salty. Just off to chew some pussy willow ( or palm as we called it round Easter!)


Now - the pussy gardens , hmmmm


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 08:00 PM

I'm very much a CTW Excursion Flora man. I back it up for modern nomenclature with my Fitter/Blamey picture book. My brain works in latin but my gob works in lyrical English.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM

I spent a lot of time as an NPS naturalist and USFS forester with those scientific names, but in case you haven't checked lately, many of those are changing, as are the families and connections up that chart as they work out the genome connections between plants. Like the lotus and the plane tree being close relatives (or is it the water lily and the plane tree? At any rate, lotus and water lily aren't actually related, apparently.) It's almost not safe to go out in the garden with your old botanical key any more. ;-D

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 06:05 PM

We botanists have always preferred the Latin anyway. Universal lingo an' all that.

Steve B.Sc.(Hons.) (Imperial College 1972, Botany, boozers' class)


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

I don't suppose it hurts to sort out the botanicals under discussion here in relation to "salley" or "sally" if the general conclusion is that the term refers to a willow of some sort. Common names in one place may refer to a completely different plant in another. Our English-language readership here on Mudcat is worldwide.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 08:44 AM

That would be gardening twine, surely.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Effsee
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:22 PM

Jesu H...this is turning into a gardening thread!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:19 PM

We have lots of acacias in the prairie and desert of the Americas. They're very sharp (with names like "cat claw acacia").

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM

Several species of Mimosa sensu strictu are grown as 'stove' (greenhouse) plants in England.
The spring flower sold as 'Mimosa' is Acacia decurrens var. dealbata
The so-called 'sensitive plant' is Mimosa pudica
Sanders' Encyclopaedia of Gardening

Acacias of several species are called 'wattles' in the UK and Australia.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 04:15 PM

Thanks, Q!

I saved that selection as a PDF, since I happened to be working in the OED again this afternoon. Send a PM if any of you want it. That form preserves the diacriticals.

So now you're into mimosa? That's a tree that originated in Persia, last time I researched it. The flower is like some small "fairy duster" flowers one finds in the desert Southwest. Legume family. Humming birds and sphinx moths both are attracted to it. I kind of doubt that mimosa would like growing in the UK, but it certainly could have been carried there sometime in the last couple of thousand years. ;-D

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:33 PM

Yes I know Wiktionary is not very classy and you'll recall that I did express annoyance with it.

To say that Yeats was a fascist is very simplistic. His politics weren't up there with his poetry, that's for sure. It's true he dabbled with non-democratic ideas and occasionally expressed sympathies for Musso, but he turned firmly against Franco in the Spanish Civil War, siding with the Republicans. And he never actually acted out fascism, did he. Not exactly my kind of bloke politically, but let's at least not misrepresent the man.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

Yeats was a fascist? Yer mudder wears army boots.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 02:59 PM

Wiktionary is hardly in the class of the OED.
Spellings go obsolete when few use them; putting a date to this is approximation.

(Ice box is an obsolete term for fridge but I still use it occasionally- or is fridge obsolete as well?)

Mimosa and wattle are both common names for various species of the Mimosaceae. Popular usage differs from area to area and person to person.

- Trees or shrubs, very rarely herbs; leaves mostly bipinnate, rarely simply pinnate; flowers bisexual, small, spicate, racemose or capitate, actinomorphic, 3-6-usually 5-merous; calyx tubular, valvate or very rarely (Parkineae imbricate, 5-lobed or toothed; petals valvate, free or connate into a short tube, mostly hypogynous; stamens equal in number to the sepals or more numerous or indefinite, free or monadelphous; anthers small, 2-locular, opening lengthwise, often with a deciduous gland at the apex; ovary superior; fruit a legume or indehiscent; seeds with scanty or no endosperm.
.............
Mimosaceae differ from the other two families of the 'Leguminosae' by their actinomorphic (regular) flowers and valvate petals, the latter frequently connate into a lobed corolla.........

Now you know.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: meself
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM

Oh - that explains it!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM

yeats was a fascist.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:13 PM

This casts some light on the yellow flowered plant I saw in the garden centre today which I thought was mimosa, or wattle, and was labelled acacia.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:55 PM

I'd heard something like the Yeats/Gogarty/McCormack story before, only the song in that case was one of the "Tin-Pan Alley", pseudo-Irish songs that McCormack sang so often and so well (Rachmaninov once said he sang good songs well - and bad songs better). However, I'd remembered Yeats's words as, "Oh, the damnable clarity", which I took to mean that he thought it a pity that everyone could hear what the sixty-year old, smiling public man clearly thought was rhyming drivel. It would be really unlike McCormack not to attribute the words, since he and Herbert Hughes actually collected some of Hughes' "Irish Country Songs" together and in a couple of radio broadcasts from America which were recorded, McCormack does give credit to accompanists and arrangers &c.

In my mischievous childhood, a "sally rod" was a feared instrument in the hands of a grandmother.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 04:50 AM

Wiktionary states that salley is an obsolete spelling of sally. Annoyingly, it doesn't indicate when it became obsolete. Presumably, back in the day (as they say) it was regarded as correct.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 04:40 AM

Sallow as an English name for willows has been applied to several species. Off the top of my head I can think of common sallow for Salix cinerea ssp. atrocinerea, eared sallow for S. aurita and great sallow as an alternative name for the goat willow, S. caprea. The latter, to contradict our learned friend above, is not the weeping willow, that epithet belonging to the very different S. babylonica (or a hybrid) as has been stated before. From all that's been said in the thread it would appear that Yeats would have had little justification for inserting that 'e' if he'd intended a connection with willows. But did he? :-)


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:57 AM

I wasn't going to attempt the diacriticals for all of that, but then, the online OED does kind of just dump it on the page. You can get this at any library, or if someone wants an online version, I can see if I can save that page as a PDF and email it to you.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:41 AM

So I pulled up the library access to the OED:

n4. One of several eucalypts or acacias that resemble willows in habit or appearance; (see quot. 1965).

1884 A. NILSON Timber Trees New South Wales 22 A[cacia] falcata.Hickory; Sally;..Willow. 1889 J. H. MAIDEN Useful Native Plants Austral. 149 Acacia falcata,..'Hickory'. 'Lignum-Vitae'. 'Sally'. Ibid. 250 Eucalyptus stellulata,..'Sally' or 'Black Gum'. Ibid. 335 Acacia falcata... Called variously 'Hickory',..and 'Sally' or 'Sallee'. 1932 R. H. ANDERSON Trees New South Wales 58 Snow Gum or White Sally. Ibid., Black Sally..Also known as Sally or Muzzlewood. 1941 BAKER Dict. Austral. Slang. 62 Sally: an acacia. 1949 J. WRIGHT Woman to Man 17 In the olive darkness of the sally-trees Silently moved the air. 1957 Forest Trees Austral. (Austral. Forestry & Timber Bureau) 96/2 Swamp gum or broad leaved sally..occurs in cold and damp situations. Ibid. 144/1 White sallee is usually only 30-60 feet in height. 1965 Austral. Encycl. VII. 539/2 Sallee, or sally, a corruption of the English 'sallow' which is applicable to certain willow species..and commonly used for Australian eucalypts and wattles that are supposed to resemble them in habit or foliage. Black sallee and white sallee are the names standardized in the timber trade for the cold-loving Eucalyptus stellulata and E. pauciflora respectively. Acacia floribunda and A. prominens are among the eastern wattles which have been called sally.


Then I entered "salley" and was given the choice of "sallow" or "sally" so I selected "sallow" and it brought me to this:

Forms: . 1 sealh, (seal, salh, salch); . 4-5 salwe, (4 salew, salugh), 5-6 salgh(e, salow(e, (5 salwhe, 6 sallowe, sallo, 7 salloo), 4- sallow; . [1 sali-], 3 selihe, salyhe, 5-6 saly, 6 salye, 6, 9 salley, 7- sally. (See also E.D.D., and the forms placed under SAUGH.)

1. A plant of the genus Salix, a willow; chiefly, in narrower sense, as distinguished from 'osier' and 'willow', applied to several species of Salix of a low-growing or shrubby habit: see quot. 1866. Also, one of the shoots of a willow.

αa700 Epinal Gloss. 892 Salix, salch. a800 Erfurt Gloss. 1767 Salix, salh. c1000 Sax. Leechd. II. 18 Wi heafod ece enim sealh & ele.

β1377-8 Durham Acc. Rolls (Surtees) 131 In posicione de Sallowys juxta ripam de Wer, xxd. c1386 CHAUCER Wife's Prol. 655 Who so that buyldeth his hous al of salwes..Is worthy to been hanged on the galwes! 1388 WYCLIF Lev. xxiii. 40 And e schulen take to ou..salewis [1382 withies] of the rennynge streem. c1450 LYDG. & BURGH Secrees 2014 Afftir, ovir a ryveer rennyng, To be set Arrayed to thyn estat, With salwys, wyllwys Envyronnd preperat. 1555 EDEN Decades 38 Elmes, wyllowes, and salowes. 1583 L. M[ASCALL] tr. Bk. Dyeing 76 Take cole of a willo or sallo. 1697 DRYDEN Virg. Georg. II. 573 Sallows and Reeds, on Banks of Rivers born. 1725 T. THOMAS in Portland Pap. (Hist. MSS. Comm.) VI. 131 There is a small shrub growing over the greatest part of it ['the Carr', near Carlisle] which they call soft sallows. 1782 J. SCOTT Poet. Wks. 96 And lofty sallows their sweet bloom display. 1818 SHELLEY Pr. Wks. (1880) III. 18 We sit with Plato by old Ilissus..among the sweet scent of flowering sallow. 1859 TENNYSON Merlin & V. 223 A robe..In colour like the satin-shining palm On sallows in the windy gleams of March. 1866 Treas. Bot., Sallow, a name for Salix cinerea, S. Caprea, and the allied species, which are not flexible like the osier, but furnish the best charcoal for gunpowder. 1907 Gentl. Mag. July 38 The yellow sallows, locally sallys, which the cottage children call palms, flame in gold.

γc1000 Ags. Ps. (Th.) xxxvi. 2 On sali[um] we sarie, swie elome, ure organan up-ahengan. a1300 E.E. Psalter cxxxvi. 2 In selihes [v.r. salyhes, wilthes] in mide ofe ite Our organes henge we yhite. 1483 Cath. Angl. 317/1 Salghe for Saly A.), salix. 1664 EVELYN Sylva xix. 39 Of the Withy, Sally, Ozier, and Willow. Ibid. 40 We have three sorts of Sallys amongst us: The vulgar..and the hopping Sallys..: And a third kind..having the twigs reddish. 1694 W. WESTMACOTT Script. Herb. 222 Sallies grow the faster, if planted within the reach of the Water. 1750 W. ELLIS Mod. Husbandm. IV. II. 41 (E.D.S.). 1882 W. Worc. Gloss., Sallies, willow-boughs.

    2. The wood of the sallow tree.

βc1400 Lanfranc's Cirurg. 118 If e heed be smyte wi a lit drie staf as of salow. 1646 SIR T. BROWNE Pseud. Ep. II. v. 88 Smal-coale..is made of Sallow, Willow, Alder, Hasell, and the like. 1658 Hydriot. iii. 44 Sallow..makes more Ashes then Oake. 1843 HOLTZAPFFEL Turning, etc. I. 104 Sallow (Salix caprea), is white, with a pale-red cast, like red deal, but without the veins. 1882 Athenæum 26 Aug. 271/2 A Sussex trug..is a flat basket..of flakes of sallow braced with ash.

γ1546 Yorks. Chantry Surv. (Surtees) I. 113 Ther is a wood..conteynyng..xx acres of okes, asshes, salyes and other woodes. 1582 in W. H. Turner Select. Rec. Oxford (1880) 424 Spoylinge of hasells, salleys, and other woods readie for sale. 1640 BP. REYNOLDS Passions xxxvii. 453 They doe not take Sally, or Willow, or Birch, and such other Materialls. 1810 W. H. MARSHALL Rev. Board Agric., W. Departm. 275 The softer woods, such as ash, sallies, alder, are regularly cut from twelve to fourteen years' growth. 1835 J. WILSON Biog. Blind 212 The old harp..the front of which is white sally, the back of fir.
    3. a. A collectors' name for certain moths the larvæ of which feed on the sallow or willow; esp. a moth of the genus Xanthia.

1829 J. F. STEPHENS Syst. Catal. Brit. Ins. II. 98. 1832 J. RENNIE Conspect. Butterfl. & M. 85. 1880 O. S. WILSON Larvæ Brit. Lepidopt. 270.
    b. ? = sally-fly (see 4b).

1902 Webster's Dict., Suppl., Sally, a stone fly.
    4. a. attrib. as sallow (or sally) bush, charcoal, land, pole, stake, switch, tree, twig, willow, wood.

1883 Eng. Illustr. Mag. Nov. 69/2 A few low *sallow bushes.
--------------------------------------------------------------
1615 MARKHAM Eng. Housew. 81 Take of *Sallow Charcole vj. ounces.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1907 Gentl. Mag. July 38 Down by the river we have the Sallens, or *Sally lands.
----------------------------------------------------------------
1898 B'ham Daily Post 26 Mar. (E.D.D.), 'White and black *Sally poles' for sale.
--------------------------------------------------------------
c1440 Pallad. on Husb. XII. 139 And put a *saly stake in hit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1802 H. MARTIN Helen of Glenross I. 55 A *sally switch.
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1502 ARNOLDE Chron. (1811) 188 Take..half soo myche of coles of *salow or of wylow tree. 1850 K. H. DIGBY Compitum III. 206 A brook that winds through bending sally trees.
------------------------------------------------------------
c1440 Pallad. on Husb. IV. 18 And softe a *saly twigge aboute hym plie.
--------------------------------------------------------------
1776-96 WITHERING Brit. Plants (ed. 3) II. 54 *Sallow Willow. Salix caprea... This is perhaps the most common of all our willows.
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c1790 J. IMISON Sch. Art II. 17 Charcoal is to be chosen of *sallow wood.
-----------------------------------------------------------

    b. Special comb.: sally-fly, some kind of stone fly; sallow kitten, a moth (see quot.); sallow moth, a moth of the genus Xanthia (Cassell's Dict.); sally picker Anglo-Irish, a name for the Chiffchaff, Sedge Warbler and Willow Warbler; sallow thorn, a plant of the genus Hippophae; sallow (wattle), one of several Australian acacias that resemble willows in habit or foliage. sallow withe, withy [= G. salweide] = sense 1.

1787 BEST Angling (ed. 2) 114 The Yellow *Sally Fly. Comes on about the twentieth of May... It is a four winged fly; as it swims down the water its wings lie flat on its back.
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1880 O. S. WILSON Larvæ Brit. Lepidopt. 189 Dicranura furcula, Linn. The *Sallow Kitten.
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1885 SWAINSON Provinc. Names Birds 25, 26, 28 *Sally picker (Ireland).
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1847 W. E. STEELE Field Bot. 157 Hippophae. L. *Sallow~thorn.
------------------------------------------------------------
1884 A. NILSON Timber Trees New South Wales 21 A[cadia] dealbata.Silver Wattle; Sallow. 1965 Austral. Encycl. VII. 539/2 A[cacia] longifolia, A. mucronata and several related species with long flower-spikes are known as sallow wattles in Victoria.
-------------------------------------------------------
1657 THORNLEY tr. Longus' Daphnis & Chloe 68 The Goats gnaw'd the green *Sallow With in pieces.
------------------------------------------------------------
1893 Wiltsh. Gloss., *Sally-withy, a willow.



Grist for the mill!

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: meself
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:31 AM

Okay, thanks; that helps - I think -


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 08:04 PM

I think what Yeats meant was, "I should be really pissed off that McCormack used my words but didn't credit me, but, what the hell, he sings so well that I can't stay angry." or something like that.

Since I read the quote I've been secretly hoping that someone would accuse me of damnable articularity, but no one I know has any idea what it means either.
- Phil


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 05:22 PM

Australians use sally for eucalypts and acacias that resemble willows.
Nilson, Timber trees of New South Wales, 1884; also later.

sallow 1. a plant of the genus Salix, willows.
Old word, 14th C. or earlier, OHG and OE, many variants; sally is common in Ireland. 'Salwes' in Chaucer. In poetry by Shelley, Tennyson and Cowper as well as Yeats.

No particular willow species is indicated.

All of the above from the OED.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 02:56 PM

The Irish language (Gaeilge) has both sail and saileach for willow (the first is pronounced roughly Sall as in Sally, the second Saal-yuk, roughly). They're both believed to be loanwords from Latin.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 02:42 PM

What is the Irish spelling for willow JM said it was sally in Irish so probably reached these Isles before the Romans with their Aspirin bark


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM

Salix caprea
( Weeping Sally Willow


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM

sally is the preferred spelling,they are sally willows.
its not a question of preferring anything it is question of what is the norm.
singular sally, plural sallies


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: meself
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 02:25 PM

It would take damnable articularity just to be able to say 'damnable articularity'. I suppose it would be easier if you could actually keep a straight face while saying it ....

Having said that, and admitting that I'm a bit thick - Were WHAT not for the damnable articularity of the man? Not the first time ol' WB has left me bewildered ....


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 08:50 AM

The spelling is a tricky one. As Yeats rendered it "salley" perhaps we should prefer that.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 01:59 AM

The song appears in The Richard Dyer-Bennet Folk Song Book published in 1971. Here is his introduction to the song:

Down by the Sally Gardens
[Traditional Irish Tune]
The words are by William Butler Yeats, and the tune is traditional. Oliver St. John Gogarty, the late Irish writer and physician and, incidentally, the prototype of James Joyce's Buck Mulligan, told me the following anecdote. Gogarty and Yeats were attending a John McCormack concert in Dublin some fifty years ago and McCormack, in response to a demand for encores, said, "I will sing one of our beloved Irish folk songs, 'The Sally Gardens.'" Then, without attributing the words to Yeats, he sang the song hauntingly. As the famous pianissimo died away, and before the thunder of applause, Yeats turned to Gogarty and whispered, "Were it not for the damnable articularity of the man!"


"Sally" is footnoted as meaning Willow. Does anyone know whether "sally" or "salley" is the preferred spelling?
- Phil


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 01:58 AM


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM

I have two collections of Yeats' poems, different to Q's, and the version in each one is identical in every respect to the one quoted by Q. That's quite a relief. A year or so ago I tried to get an original/definitive version of "On Raglan Road" by Patrick Kavanagh. What a minefield!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM

Maura O'Connell and Karen Matheson from the Transatlantic Sessions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2UZReQGNVI

They create a third verse by reprising the first two lines of the first verse and the last two lines of the second verse. Together with the instrumental verse it makes a satisfying arrangement.

Superb performance all round.

Notice the attribution "lyrics: trad - pub. W B Yeats 1889"


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM

Salix babylonica last time I heard.

I stand corrected (well sit actually!)


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Subject: Lyr. Add: Down by the Salley Gardens
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:41 PM

No one has seen fit yet to cite the little poem by Yeats:

Lyr. Add: Down by the Salley Gardens
W. B. Yeats
1
Down by the salley gardens my love and I did meet;
She passed the salley gardens with little snow-white feet.
She bid me take love easy, as the leaves grow on the tree;
But I, being young and foolish, with her would not agree.
2
In a field by the river my love and I did stand,
And on my leaning shoulder she laid her snow-white hand.
She bid me take life easy, as the grass grows on the weirs;
But I was young and foolish, and now am full of tears.

An Anthology of Modern Verse, ed. A. Methuen, Methuen & Co.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:17 PM

Salix babylonica last time I heard.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:56 PM

Maybe older names from the 'Celtic' Britons who were conquered by the Romans and then by the Saxons and Normans but many of whose placenames live on.

Sally is much more likely to have come from the Latin for willow, salix. The botanical name for the Weeping Willow is IIRC Salix Salix.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 02:18 PM

Sally in Our Alley ?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 02:17 PM

I've also been mulling a way for "aller" to cross the channel and acquire the ce or s sound when it is Anglicised. A passage area with a garden nearby?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

hi John

In Manchester there is Withington and Wythenshawe and next door is Salford and Sale is nearby. Maybe older names from the 'Celtic' Britons who were conquered by the Romans and then by the Saxons and Normans but many of whose placenames live on.


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