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Origin: Sally Gardens

DigiTrad:
DOWN IN A WILLOW GARDEN
DOWN IN MY SALLY'S GARDEN
SALLY GARDENS


Related threads:
Andy Irvine: You Rambling Boys of Pleasure (Yeats) (23)
Song of Wandering Aengus Discography (21)
BS: W.B, Yeats - how can I get to know him (22)
(origins) Origin: The Song of Wandering Aengus (Yeats) (39)
Tune Req: The Lake Isle of Innisfree (W. B. Yeats) (14)
Yeats poems set to music (28)
Lyr Add: Sally Gardens (W.B. Yeats) (23)
Lyr Req/Add: The Host of the Air (W. B. Yeats) (12)
Lyr Add: Sally's Garden (parody) (4)
Obit: Michael Yeats (1921-2007)[son of W.B. Yeats] (4)
Chord Req: Down By the Salley Gardens (7)
Help: Yeats (53)
Tune Req: Maids of the Mountain Shore/Sally Garden (4)
Tune Req: Yeats/Colleen Bawn (4)
Lyr Req: Stolen Child (Yeats) (5)
W.B. Yeats (1865-1939) (11)
Lyr Req: Sally Garden / Sally Gardens (18)
Lyr Add: Stolen Child (Yeats, McKennitt) (3)


SingsIrish Songs 19 Aug 99 - 09:24 PM
Tom Brett 19 Aug 99 - 09:44 PM
Jack Hickman - Kingston, ON 20 Aug 99 - 12:47 AM
paddymac 20 Aug 99 - 05:00 AM
Canberra Chris 20 Aug 99 - 05:16 AM
Alan of Australia 20 Aug 99 - 05:28 AM
Alan of Australia 20 Aug 99 - 05:34 AM
Lorraine 20 Aug 99 - 06:46 AM
SingsIrish Songs 20 Aug 99 - 02:53 PM
Sourdough 21 Aug 99 - 03:38 AM
Mr Happy 02 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM
Kaleea 02 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM
Declan 02 Apr 06 - 07:19 PM
s&r 02 Apr 06 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,HughM 03 Apr 06 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,leeneia 03 Apr 06 - 08:58 AM
Bob Bolton 03 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM
s&r 04 Apr 06 - 04:52 AM
Bob Bolton 04 Apr 06 - 07:21 AM
Mr Red 04 Apr 06 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,Dan Druff 04 Apr 06 - 02:22 PM
Mr Red 04 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM
Mr Red 04 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Guest 05 Apr 06 - 10:14 AM
Big Jim from Jackson 05 Apr 06 - 10:25 AM
mikesamwild 24 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,John Moulden 24 Mar 10 - 11:02 AM
Tom - Swords & Songs 24 Mar 10 - 11:15 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 26 Mar 10 - 10:21 AM
meself 26 Mar 10 - 10:53 AM
meself 26 Mar 10 - 10:55 AM
shipcmo 26 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,Longlankin 26 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 26 Mar 10 - 11:27 AM
Amos 26 Mar 10 - 12:25 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Mar 10 - 12:47 PM
ChillToad 26 Mar 10 - 02:04 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM
mikesamwild 26 Mar 10 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,John Moulden 27 Mar 10 - 12:43 PM
mikesamwild 27 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Mar 10 - 02:17 PM
mikesamwild 27 Mar 10 - 02:18 PM
Tootler 27 Mar 10 - 08:56 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Mar 10 - 09:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 10 - 11:41 PM
Tootler 28 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM
Tootler 28 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM
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Subject: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 19 Aug 99 - 09:24 PM

I know the tune is called "Maids of Mourne Shore", but where are the gardens? What are they? etc.

Mary Kate


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tom Brett
Date: 19 Aug 99 - 09:44 PM

I believe it refers to Sligo and referenced by WB Yeats.


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Jack Hickman - Kingston, ON
Date: 20 Aug 99 - 12:47 AM

A sally is a willow tree, and they used withes of the willow tree to fasten thatching on roofs back in the old days in Ireland. I am told that each village had a bush of willow trees on the outskirts, primarily to provide the necessary material for thatching, and this bush was called the "sally gardens." It was also the 19th century equivalent of a "lovers' lane" where the young folk would go to be alone.

Jack Hickman


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: paddymac
Date: 20 Aug 99 - 05:00 AM

There is a tune named "Salley Gardens" as well as the song under discusion here, which, as noted above, uses a tune of a different name. The lyric is actually a poem of the same name by Yeats (Dublin born, but spent most of his life in Sligo). I had not heard the tale about the willow "garden" noted above. Seems plausible enough. I have seen and heard ardently argued debates as to whether the title refers to a place in Dublin or Sligo. I always suspected that a salley garden was either a completely mythological place, or so ubiquitous (sp?) as to not need to be specified. In any case, it is a great poem/song which needs only to be enjoyed rather than analyzed.


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Canberra Chris
Date: 20 Aug 99 - 05:16 AM

The sentiment of the song is very close to a poem by A.E. Houseman, 'When I Was One and Twenty', which is in exactly the same metre and can be sung to the same tune. The Clancy Brothers recorded the two intertwined, a verse of one sung, followed by the corresponding stanza of the other recited. I heard it on radio, but have not yet found the recording it came from.


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 20 Aug 99 - 05:28 AM

G'day,
The story goes that Yeats needed a song for some event like a garden party and wanted to use YOU RAMBLING BOYS OF PLEASURE. When he couldn't find a copy he wrote "Sally Gardens" instead.

Chris, I'm sure I have the version you're referring to but it'll take me a while to find it.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 20 Aug 99 - 05:34 AM

Also, have a look at this (THE MAID OF MOURNE SHORE), especially the footnote.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Lorraine
Date: 20 Aug 99 - 06:46 AM

Thank you I'm enjoying this discussion-Lorraine


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: SingsIrish Songs
Date: 20 Aug 99 - 02:53 PM

Great info! Thanks. And I love the version of Sally Gardens that Tommy Makem sings with the recitation of the Houseman poem between verses.

SingsIrish


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Sourdough
Date: 21 Aug 99 - 03:38 AM

Well, when all else fails, resort to the O.E.D. I did that and discovered a number of things.

There is no entry for "Sally Gardens" or "Salley Gardens".

"Sally" might be a corruption of a number of different words relating to willows, acacias and gum trees. However, all the species it refers to seem to be antipodal, I think all from Australia.

There is a third meaning for "sally" deriving from the military term that gave us "sally ports" in castle walls and "sallies" out against an enemy. Sally can be used to mean a breaking out of emotion in an unaccustomed way, i.e. letting loose. It is not much of a jump from there to a place near a village that is the "Lover's Lane".

Ah, ambiguity.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Mr Happy
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 01:59 PM

White Willow (Salix alba)

Irish Sailach (Willows in general) (family - Salicaceae)


Sailach - pronounced 'Sally'

see here:


http://www.british-trees.com/guide/whitewillow.htm


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Kaleea
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM

Now it all makes sense!


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Declan
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:19 PM

Crann Saileach in Gaelic translates as a Willow tree. It seems likely that the name, as with many other gaelic names derives from the latin. The subtitle of the Yeats poem is "an old song remembered". The words suggest that the old song was indeed "You rambling Boys of Pleasure".

There is also a well known reel called the "Sally Gardens". I think the only connection between the two is the title, Although the coincidence tends to give rise to confusion from time to time.


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: s&r
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 07:27 PM

I remeber researching this some time back and finding that the native Australian word for willow was sallee. Don't know where I found the ref

Stu


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:09 AM

Hence also salicylic acid, from the willow.


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 08:58 AM

Here's what the Sing-out Book has to say:

In this poem (pub in his Crossways, 1889) Yeats attempted to reconstruct an old song from 3 lines he remembered an old peasant woman singing in the village of Ballisodare, Co. Sligo in the west of Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 11:39 PM

G'day s&r,

My Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary (the 3rd edition, 1997, on my work desk) has sally/sallee as "any of several eucalypts and acacias resembling the willow". They derive it as a British dialect variant of "sallow²" ... and meaning ² for 'sallow' is: the willow tree ... ultimatly from the Latin salix (via Old High German and Norse).

There's no suggestion of a source in any of the hundreds of Aboriginal languages ... such things were a favourite delusion of Victorian era academics ... but rarely proved feasible, let alone true!

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: s&r
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:52 AM

Thanks Bob. I'd put it as a strange coincidence, but your explanation makes more sense.

This is an interesing article about the use of willow in Ireland for Baskets.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 07:21 AM

G'day again Stu,

The early British settlers of Sydney - the first settlement, in 1788 - were quite concerned to find trees that could substitute for the willow. The quickest way of throwing up a minimal shelter - for the convicts and serving soldiers (the Officers and the Governor had canvas tents) was to construct "wattle & daub" huts. The tree they used, initially, with dark green springy branches and yellow globular flowers, was callicoma serratifolia and they called it "Black Wattle" for the dark branches and its use in wattle & daub.

When they found great numbers of acacias, with similar yellow globular flowers, they called all these "wattles" as well ... they weren't botanists - just settlers! Now most Australians think a "wattle" must be an acacia ... and forget that, by the priority rules of taxonomy, only the callicoma should be so called!

Anyway, to ponder the original question of this thread: I have always assumed that a "Sally Garden" (a 'willow garden') would be a pleasant green garden along a stream - lined with willows ... and a pretty place for dalliance. With that view, I have no problems with the location of the song's disappointed love theme.

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:19 PM

"As the grass grows on the wier" - & "in a filed down by the river". Where willows love to grow. It all hangs together when you have the context.

I was told Yeats denied authorship - though his wife confirmed he wrote it after his death. - anyone confirm such?


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: GUEST,Dan Druff
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 02:22 PM

I know Yeats was capable of many things (or, at least, that's what he told everybody), but composing Sally Gardens after his own death really is an achievement.


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM

picky picky picky


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM

decomposing?


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 10:14 AM

"Here's what the Sing-out Book has to say:

In this poem (pub in his Crossways, 1889) Yeats attempted to reconstruct an old song from 3 lines he remembered an old peasant woman singing in the village of Ballisodare, Co. Sligo in the west of Ireland. "


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Subject: RE: Song history/origin: Sally Gardens
From: Big Jim from Jackson
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 10:25 AM

The song is often call "Down By The Willow Gardens". Didn't Ian and Sylvia record it that way? I've seen and heard some bluegrass versions with that title.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:34 AM

Willows are associated with sadness in many folksongs song and that works at a subconcscious level for me.

Anyway thanks for the thread I've been singing Sally Gardens and getting fefd up of the syrupy lyrics ( and grass doesn't grow on weirs round this way anyway) so it's the Rambling Boys and 'we are young and the world is wide' for me. Even though i'm 70 and the world is getting more restricted!

Bits of it remind me of the last bits of My Love is Like a Red Red Rose as sung by Altan.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:02 AM

There has been a lot of nonsense written about this song - here are some facts and some references to authoritative but opposing articles.

On its first publication in 1889, Yeats said it was "an attempt to reconstruct an old song from three lines imperfectly remembered by an old peasant woman in the village of Ballysodare, Sligo, who often sings them to herself." Yeats' original title, "An Old Song Re-Sung", reflected this; it first appeared as "The Salley Gardens" when reprinted in 1895. In 1909, it was set by Herbert Hughes to the air The Maids of the Mourne Shore. Another vocal setting, by the poet and composer Ivor Gurney, was published in 1938.

There are two views as to which song it was that was re-sung:
There are two views – Michael Yeats in a Lecture in 1965 thought that it came from this, which had been reported by the Dublin City Councillor, Publican and song maker, PJ McCall to have been written down from memory by his father, John McCall (d. 1902) and that he, himself, had heard the song sung by a butcher, James Tierney, a butcher's porter, in Patrick Street, Dublin:

Down by the Salley Gardens my own true love and I did meet;
She passed the Salley Gardens a-tripping with her snow-white feet.
She bid me take love easy, just as the leaves fall from each tree;
But I being young and foolish, with my true love would not agree.

In a field by the river my lovely girl and I did stand,
And leaning on her shoulder I pressed her burning hand.
She bid me take life easy, as the stream flows o'er the weirs;
But I being young and foolish, I parted her that day in tears.

I wish I was in Banagher and my fine girl upon my knee.
And I with money plenty to keep her in good company.
I'd call for liquor of the best with flowing bowls on every side.
Kind fortune ne'er shall daunt me, I am young and the world's wide.

In my view and given that John McCall died in 1902, which gave him had thirteen years in which to construct this from his memory of another old song and his knowledge of Yeats' poem – the first two verses are too little different from Yeats' poem to be its origin rather than derived from it.

The second view is that of Hugh Shields in an article in the Trinity College Dublin Magazine, Hermathena, in 1965. (From 1954, Hugh Shields, a Lecturer in Medieval French at Trinity, collected songs across Ireland, especially in north Derry, and allied them with ballad sheets. His knowledge of the working of tradition was very extensive.) His chosen origin was "The Rambling Boys of Pleasure" a song known in tradition from Robert Cinnamond, Joe Holmes (and other) and widely on ballad sheets (see Bodleian Ballads) - This song includes several of Yeats' lines and a verse saying I wish I was in America which is very like John McCall's verse about Banagher.

If anyone wants the precise references, Michael Yeats' lecture was later published, I can supply them.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tom - Swords & Songs
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:15 AM

This is probably totally irrelevant, but when I first heard the song, it had the standard two verses:

'Down by the Sally Gardens...
and
'In a field by the river...

But it also had two verses by A E Houseman:
'When I was one-and-twenty
    I heard a wise man say,
'Give crowns and pounds and jewels
    But not your heart away;
Give pearls away and rubies
    But keep your fancy free.'
But I was one-and-twenty,
    And so did not agree.

When I was one-and-twenty
    I heard him say again,
'The heart out of the bosom
    Was never given in vain;
'Tis paid with sighs a plenty
    And sold for endless rue.'
Now I am two-and-twenty,
    And oh, 'tis true, 'tis true.

And I always thought this was a nice bit to have on the end of a relatively short song.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:21 AM

The lines about taking love easy, "as the leaves grow on the tree", also occur in a Donegal song, "Lurgy's Stream" (a small river not far from Letterkenny and Kilmacrenan), but are no doubt found in many other traditional verses as well. John Moulden's note from yesterday includes the words "as the stream flows o'er the weirs", which seems more appropriate than "as the grass grows on the weirs", unless there's the intention to suggest the passage of many years (i.e. that would be required from grass to grow over a place of running water - unless in a dry Summer). This would be consistent with the leaves growing (over some time) on the trees rather than their falling from them, an image more linked to age than to youth.

Since there aren't, as far as I can see, any other discussions about this song, I wonder if I might ask here what interpretations people put on it? It's clearly cast as a memory, but of how long previously? Did the singer regularly meet the female, or did he only see her the once, passing by in the bare feet, and fall for her "at first sight"? How long after did she tell him to get lost; did he even follow her from the Salley Gardens as far as the field by the river all on the one day....? What reasons might there be for his (still) being full of tears, assuming that he is no longer Young and Foolish but, at most, one of these? Answers on very large postcards.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: meself
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:53 AM

To my eye, the picture is of two "young lovers" who habitually meet in suitably idyllic locales. They "lean" together; she places her hand on his shoulder; she talks to him in a familiar way. However, his urgency, his "neediness", perhaps his seriousness, his self-righteousness, his ambition, his inflexibility, is too much for her, and she dumps him. Now (that is, in the eternal present of the poem), he is no longer "young and foolish" in the sense that the speaker in the Houseman poem is no longer so: chronologically, perhaps only a few months have passed, but the speaker feels much older, sadder, and wiser. That does preclude his still being "full of tears", by any means.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: meself
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:55 AM

Sorry - "does NOT preclude ... "


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: shipcmo
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:09 AM

Well,
Family tradition had it a little different.
Cheers,
George Salley


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: GUEST,Longlankin
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:18 AM

"When I was One and Twenty" is from Houseman's "Shropshire Lad". Like a number of Houseman's poems it makes a nice little song on its own (and has been set to music by Butterworth). Sally Gardens is also a good enough song to stand on its own. They both deserve better than being tagged on to each other to make it a decent length song (what is a decent length for a song anyway?).


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:27 AM

Ah, but hold on, "meself": is it really justified to imagine them habitually "leaning", at least from the words? It's the male/singer's shoulder that is "leaning", which I take to imply a certain dejection at the time (and indeed, I've heard the word sung as "drooping" and "weary", though Yeats' word is "leaning", going along with the way she "laid" her hand &c). I'm thoroughly in accord with your third sentence, not least in the number and variety of possible explanations, but do tend to see the singer as remembering youthful experience from a long time ago, which does lead to the complication of wondering why he's (still) full of tears, presumably about the experience mentioned.

On the other hand, it's a song that works without any need for such analysis.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:25 PM

"One and Twenty", as I have said elsewhere, makes a fine talking blues.


A


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM

A bit of ~Michael~'s 'legendary pedantry' coming up ~~~

HOUSMAN, pleas ~~ no middle 'e'...


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:47 PM

... but an 'e' on end of 'pleasE', nonetheless ~~ sorry!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: ChillToad
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:04 PM

I extend the song by singing the two standard verses, then combine the first half of the first verse with the second half of the second verse (if that makes sense).

I've heard the "...take love easy" and "...take life easy" lines switched around by different performers. I go for the "Down boy, love mustn't be rushed or you'll ruin it" followed by "Well you've blown that, hope you don't spoil the rest of your life in the same way" kind of view. Or maybe I'm just projecting....


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM

Sorry I didn't see this until now.

I've worked in a number of historic forts for the National Park Service, some of them places that had forts at one time that still retain some of the old functional names. I haven't worked at any castles, but it would apply there as well.

The Sally Port is the back or postern gate out of a fort or fortified place (like a castle); when I worked at the Statue of Liberty (atop the old star-shaped Fort Wood), the sally port was the smaller back door we used to take people out if we didn't want to go through the big front doors. A door like that is secure, and while it is strategic for sending out troops when needed in a fight, is useful for when you're living and working in a fort and want to work on the grounds around the outside of it. Like in the garden. There was one of those at San Juan Island NHP also, in English camp, if I recall correctly. If you don't have room inside for a kitchen garden, it's practical that it be close to the fort walls, and near the door into the domestic area of the fort, etc.

To see the sally port at the Statue of Liberty (Fort Wood when it was there alone with no pedestal or statue) get the movie Splash. When Darryl Hannah comes ashore in NYC to find the Tom Hanks character they pretend it is the front entrance to the statue, but it was actually filmed at the sally port (they just closed part of the island for filming, but they didn't close the island to visitors). She has his wallet with her, and arrives nude on the grounds at the statue. Ron Howard's folks didn't tell the NPS that there was nudity in the scene--that freaked them out a little.

So, the sally garden in that context is the kitchen garden or it could be a pleasure garden outside the alternate exit from the fort. In skimming all of the discussion above about sally gardens in various localities I didn't see anything that would suggest that there wasn't a fort or castle nearby that had a sally port that gave the garden it's name. I'd be willing to bet real money that the terms sally port and sally garden were in use for a long time in the UK or Europe before they made their way over here, possibly as artifacts of activities that happened in a given area long time ago. In communities that had some history of an old fortified structure, it makes sense that there are a few sally gardens around the English-speaking world.

I sounds to me like grasping at straws to convert salix (willow) to give the name to the garden. It just doesn't make sense. I have the impression that willow is more likely to be called withy rather than sally.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:56 PM

thanks John Moulden that clears the weir up for me and I like the link with Rambling Boys

a very helpful thread


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 12:43 PM

Thanks mikesamwild. The sally port is only a vague possibility and not in my view very likely. Withy is the English dialect word for willow - sally is the Irish. It is widely used as in the Dublin children's version of the Cruel Mother popularized by the Dubliners - Down by the river Sailagh.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

hi John

In Manchester there is Withington and Wythenshawe and next door is Salford and Sale is nearby. Maybe older names from the 'Celtic' Britons who were conquered by the Romans and then by the Saxons and Normans but many of whose placenames live on.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 02:17 PM

I've also been mulling a way for "aller" to cross the channel and acquire the ce or s sound when it is Anglicised. A passage area with a garden nearby?

SRS


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 02:18 PM

Sally in Our Alley ?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 08:56 PM

Maybe older names from the 'Celtic' Britons who were conquered by the Romans and then by the Saxons and Normans but many of whose placenames live on.

Sally is much more likely to have come from the Latin for willow, salix. The botanical name for the Weeping Willow is IIRC Salix Salix.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:17 PM

Salix babylonica last time I heard.


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Subject: Lyr. Add: Down by the Salley Gardens
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:41 PM

No one has seen fit yet to cite the little poem by Yeats:

Lyr. Add: Down by the Salley Gardens
W. B. Yeats
1
Down by the salley gardens my love and I did meet;
She passed the salley gardens with little snow-white feet.
She bid me take love easy, as the leaves grow on the tree;
But I, being young and foolish, with her would not agree.
2
In a field by the river my love and I did stand,
And on my leaning shoulder she laid her snow-white hand.
She bid me take life easy, as the grass grows on the weirs;
But I was young and foolish, and now am full of tears.

An Anthology of Modern Verse, ed. A. Methuen, Methuen & Co.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM

Salix babylonica last time I heard.

I stand corrected (well sit actually!)


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 07:17 PM

Maura O'Connell and Karen Matheson from the Transatlantic Sessions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2UZReQGNVI

They create a third verse by reprising the first two lines of the first verse and the last two lines of the second verse. Together with the instrumental verse it makes a satisfying arrangement.

Superb performance all round.

Notice the attribution "lyrics: trad - pub. W B Yeats 1889"


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Subject: RE: Origin: Sally Gardens
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:16 PM

I have two collections of Yeats' poems, different to Q's, and the version in each one is identical in every respect to the one quoted by Q. That's quite a relief. A year or so ago I tried to get an original/definitive version of "On Raglan Road" by Patrick Kavanagh. What a minefield!


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