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Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?

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greg stephens 31 Jul 10 - 10:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jul 10 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,JonR 31 Jul 10 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Gail 31 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM
Don Firth 30 Jul 10 - 08:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 30 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM
Taconicus 30 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 30 Jul 10 - 07:22 PM
Tootler 30 Jul 10 - 07:04 PM
Tootler 30 Jul 10 - 07:03 PM
beeliner 30 Jul 10 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 30 Jul 10 - 02:59 PM
The Sandman 30 Jul 10 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Big Ballad Singer 30 Jul 10 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 30 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM
DonMeixner 30 Jul 10 - 08:26 AM
matt milton 30 Jul 10 - 08:09 AM
Dave Sutherland 30 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 30 Jul 10 - 03:37 AM
mousethief 30 Jul 10 - 01:56 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 30 Jul 10 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jul 10 - 11:44 PM
maple_leaf_boy 29 Jul 10 - 08:57 PM
Don Firth 29 Jul 10 - 08:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jul 10 - 08:49 PM
Lonesome EJ 29 Jul 10 - 07:56 PM
Dave MacKenzie 29 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 10 - 07:51 PM
Lonesome EJ 29 Jul 10 - 07:41 PM
frogprince 29 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,mg 29 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jul 10 - 07:21 PM
Dave MacKenzie 29 Jul 10 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Jul 10 - 05:57 PM
Art Thieme 29 Jul 10 - 05:15 PM
Art Thieme 29 Jul 10 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,mg 29 Jul 10 - 04:22 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 10 - 03:13 PM
Banjiman 29 Jul 10 - 03:07 PM
Tootler 29 Jul 10 - 03:06 PM
Tootler 29 Jul 10 - 03:05 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 10 - 03:00 PM
Don Firth 29 Jul 10 - 02:35 PM
The Sandman 29 Jul 10 - 02:06 PM
Will Fly 29 Jul 10 - 01:54 PM
Joe Offer 29 Jul 10 - 01:24 PM
Midchuck 29 Jul 10 - 01:23 PM
Lonesome EJ 29 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 29 Jul 10 - 12:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:36 AM

Guest JonR says re Robert Johnson "Those can be the only reasons he became better known than his mentor Son House" (referring to various non-musical bits of the story). Well, I disagree. I think the main reasons are the recordings of Robert Johnson, and the recordings of Son House. We have all made up our minds, and the balance has tipoped the Johnson way. I say recordings, as I doubt if anyone writing here saw Robert Johnson live. The lucky ones will have caught Son House(I did, a great thrill. But I still rate Johnson higher!!).


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 10:03 AM

Being a "legend" isn't necessarily a matter of being the greatest musician, or the greatest anything. It's more about putting a face and a name in a story that needs telling.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,JonR
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 08:12 AM

I agree Robert Johnson is over-rated, but not by much. He happened to tick all the boxes required (by white blues fans) of a "legend" - died young, made few recordings, all seemingly uniquely accomplished, got linked with the idiotic story of the devil and the crossroads.
Those can be the only reason he became better known than his mentor Son House, who had a similar intense personal style - which became the template for the archetypal Delta blues singer: the tortured individual at war with himself and his demons. (Rather than the all-round entertainers, also performing gospel and dance tunes, that most of them actually were.)
IOW, he's achieved iconic status because someone had to, and he had all the qualifications - non-musical as well as musical.

His guitar-playing was certainly not satanically gifted, but it was pretty damn good. I'm still waiting for the OP (though he's probably gone now) to name some of those he considered better. Blind Lemon Jefferson? Blind Blake maybe? Who else? (I'd genuinely like to know if there's some great players of that era that I've somehow missed. Especially if they can wipe the floor with Robert Johnson. Which I doubt...)

I shall tease the OP by saying I think Willie Nelson is over-rated as a legend.;-) (Great singer, writer and performer, but legend?)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Gail
Date: 31 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM

and here's some of Moondog's music

Moondog 1969 (I think)

New Yorkers may like to know that Moondog was also a legend at Hull University (UK) when I arrived in 1971. This album was THE album to own among us philosophy students.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:31 PM

Legends? You want legends?

How is THIS for a legend!??

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

"I just like to call 'em as I see 'em."

There's something about that expression that always seems to indicate something less than attractive about the way the person saying it is regarding themselves.

I think greg stephens at 29 Jul 10 - 12:50 PM got it about right. I don't think it needs saying twice.

......................
Incidentally I understand from a recent thread that they now think that the version of Robert Johnson we think we know is a bit distoreted, because they speeded up the records, which made the voice higher. Still sounds pretty good at what's reckoned to be the correct speed - in fact I'd say better. I don't know if it's made any diffeence to the legend part of it.

A "legend" - surely that means something that's good to pass on and remember and from which people can draw inspiration. Who cares of Robin Hood actually ever lived?

To quote The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend ..."


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM

Ooer, I just got some Moondog last weekend. Coolio.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

I hate to have to denigrate any legend, but I must disagree with Wesley S's high opinion of Bigfoot. I mean, have you ever heard Bigfoot sing? Strictly amateur! And what did he accomplish, really? I mean let's face it: the guy's entire legend is essentially based on his being camera shy. He never even had any good adventures like, say, Peter Rabbit.

Back to reality, my vote for most underrated musical legend: Moondog


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:22 PM

The OP may have the right to post about whatever s/he likes in whatever way s/he likes (do long as it conforms to basic MC rules), but s/he doesn't have the right to impose upon others what they may or may not respond to, or in what fashion they do so.

BBS, do lighten up, eh? ;)


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:04 PM

Oh! and 100 up


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:03 PM

Big Ballad Singer,

If you are not trying to convince anyone and are not interested in arguing, then why did you start this thread in the first place?

Your OP was clearly provocative. Surely you must have seen that and realised that it was bound to lead to controversy.

If you didn't see that, then maybe you need to think a little more before starting a thread like this in future.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: beeliner
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 04:56 PM

Leadbelly's "Fannin Street" is a tour-de-force that proves Leadbelly's worth all by itself. And there were so many more.

Dave Ray recorded a very credible version of "Fannin Street" but lamented in the album notes that he was unable to achieve Leadbelly's SLOWNESS!

If you mean overrated in ANY genre, I would have to name Frank Sinatra and Michael Jackson; I have no doubt that many would disagree.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:59 PM

Big Ballad Singer you can have an opinion but in this case your opinion doesn't make sense! Robert Johnson was a great guitarist and that is a fact! You might not like what you hear, but that doesn't change the fact that Robert Johnson was a great guitarist.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:21 PM

Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: matt milton - PM
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:09 AM

Massively stupid thread.

Robert Johnson invented it. End of story. Sure, he didn't come from nowhere - nothing does. But that doesn't mean he isn't in all likelihood the most 'sui generis' guitarist ever. I've never heard a guitarist with such uncanny and precise separation between melody and harmony, between bass part and lead part. This aspect of his playing invented the rock'n'roll band.

If you can't hear that, well, I just don't think you can claim to be hearing music with any kind of discernment.
sorry, Matt,I likeRobert Johnson, but tome the most important blues guitarist is Blind Lemon Jefferson, MATCHBOX BLUES was copied by meny ro ck and rollers including theBeatles and carl perkins.
Early life

Lemon Jefferson was born blind near Coutchman, Texas in Freestone County, near present-day Wortham, Texas.[4] Jefferson was one of eight children born to sharecroppers Alex and Clarissa Jefferson.[4] Disputes regarding his exact birth date derive from contradictory census records and draft registration records. By 1900, the family was farming southeast of Streetman, Texas, and Lemon Jefferson's birth date is indicated as September 1893 in the 1900 census.[5] The 1910 census, taken in May before his birthday, further confirms his birth year as 1893, and indicated the family was farming northwest of Wortham, near Lemon Jefferson's birthplace.[6]

In his 1917 draft registration, Jefferson gave his birth date as October 26, 1894, further stating that he then lived in Dallas, Texas, and that he had been blind from birth.[7] In the 1920 Census, he is recorded as having returned to the Freestone County area, and he was living with his half-brother Kit Banks on a farm between Wortham and Streetman.[8]

Jefferson began playing the guitar in his early teens, and soon after he began performing at picnics and parties.[4] He also became a street musician, playing in East Texas towns in front of barbershops and on corners.[4] According to his cousin, Alec Jefferson, quoted in the notes for Blind Lemon Jefferson, Classic Sides:

    They were rough. Men were hustling women and selling bootleg and Lemon was singing for them all night... he'd start singing about eight and go on until four in the morning... mostly it would be just him sitting there and playing and singing all night.

By the early 1910s, Jefferson began traveling frequently to Dallas, where he met and played with fellow blues musician Leadbelly.[9] In Dallas, Jefferson was one of the earliest and most prominent figures in the blues movement developing in Dallas' Deep Ellum area. Jefferson likely moved to Deep Ellum in a more permanent fashion by 1917, where he met Aaron Thibeaux Walker, also known as T-Bone Walker.[9] Jefferson taught Walker the basics of blues guitar, in exchange for Walker's occasional services as a guide.[9] Also, by the early 1920s, Jefferson was earning enough money for his musical performances to support a wife, and possibly a child.[9] However, firm evidence for both his marriage and any offspring is unavailable.
[edit] The beginning of the recording career

Until Jefferson, very few artists had recorded solo voice and blues guitar, the first of which was vocalist Sara Martin and guitarist Sylvester Weaver. Jefferson's music is uninhibited and represented the classic sounds of everyday life from a honky-tonk to a country picnic to street corner blues to work in the burgeoning oil fields, a reflection too of his interest in mechanical things.[10]

Jefferson did what very few had ever done; became a successful solo guitarist and male vocalist in the commercial recording world. [11] Unlike many artists who were "discovered" and recorded in their normal venues, in December 1925 or January 1926, he was taken to Chicago, Illinois, to record his first tracks. Uncharacteristically, Jefferson's first two recordings from this session were gospel songs ("I Want to be like Jesus in my Heart" and "All I Want is that Pure Religion"), released under the name Deacon L. J. Bates. This led to a second recording session in March 1926. His first releases under his own name, "Booster Blues" and "Dry Southern Blues," were hits; this led to the release of the other two songs from that session, "Got the Blues" and "Long Lonesome Blues," which became a runaway success, with sales in six figures. He recorded about 100 tracks between 1926 and 1929; 43 records were issued, all but one for Paramount Records. Unfortunately, Paramount Records' studio techniques and quality were infamously bad, and the resulting recordings sound no better than if they had been recorded in a hotel room. In fact, in May 1926, Paramount had Jefferson re-record his hits "Got the Blues" and "Long Lonesome Blues" in the superior facilities at Marsh Laboratories, and subsequent releases used that version. Both versions appear on compilation albums and may be compared.
[edit] Success with Paramount Records
Label of a Blind Lemon Jefferson Paramount record from 1926

It was largely due to the popularity of artists such as Blind Lemon Jefferson and contemporaries such as Blind Blake and Ma Rainey that Paramount became the leading recording company for the blues in the 1920s.[citation needed] Jefferson's earnings reputedly enabled him to buy a car and employ chauffeurs (although there is debate over the reliability of this as well); he was given a Ford car "worth over $700" by Mayo Williams, Paramount's connection with the black community. This was a frequently seen compensation for recording rights in that market. Jefferson is known to have done an unusual amount of traveling for the time in the American South, which is reflected in the difficulty of pigeonholing his music into one regional category. [12] It was Jefferson's "old-fashioned sound and confident musicianship that made him easy to market. His skillful guitar playing and impressive vocal ranges opened the door for a new generation of male solo blues performers such as Furry Lewis, Charlie Patton, and Barbecue Bob. [13] He sticks to no musical conventions, varying his riffs and rhythm and singing complex and expressive lyrics in a manner exceptional at the time for a "simple country blues singer." According to North Carolina musician Walter Davis, Jefferson played on the streets in Johnson City, Tennessee during the early 1920s at which time Davis and fellow entertainer Clarence Greene learned the art of blues guitar.[14]

Jefferson was reputedly unhappy with his royalties (although Williams said that Jefferson had a bank account containing as much as $1500). In 1927, when Williams moved to OKeh Records, he took Jefferson with him, and OKeh quickly recorded and released Jefferson's "Matchbox Blues" backed with "Black Snake Moan," which was to be his only OKeh recording, probably because of contractual obligations with Paramount. Jefferson's two songs released on Okeh have considerably better sound quality than on his Paramount records at the time. When he had returned to Paramount a few months later, "Matchbox Blues" had already become such a hit that Paramount re-recorded and released two new versions, under producer Arthur Laibly.

In 1927, Jefferson recorded another of his now classic songs, the haunting "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" (once again using the pseudonym Deacon L. J. Bates) along with two other uncharacteristically spiritual songs, "He Arose from the Dead" and "Where Shall I Be." Of the three, "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean" became such a big hit that it was re-recorded and re-released in 1928.
[edit] Stories

As his fame grew, so did the tales regarding his life, often personally involving the teller. T-Bone Walker states that as a boy, he was employed by Jefferson to lead him around the streets of Dallas; he would have been of the appropriate age at the time. A Paramount employee told biographer Orrin Keepnews that Jefferson was a womanizing sloppy drunk; on the other hand, Jefferson's neighbor in Chicago, Romeo Nelson, reports him as being "warm and cordial," and singer Rube Lacy states that Jefferson always refused to play on a Sunday, "even if you give me two hundred." He is claimed to have earned money wrestling before his musical success, which is further claimed as proof that he was not blind at the time (something of a non sequitur). Victoria Spivey elliptically credits Jefferson as someone who "could sure feel his way around."
[edit] Death and grave

Jefferson died in Chicago in December 1929; neither the exact cause of death nor the exact date are known. For many years, apocryphal rumors circulated that a jealous lover had poisoned his coffee, but a more likely scenario is that he died due to a heart attack after becoming disoriented during a snowstorm (i.e., he froze to death). More recently, the book, "Tolbert's Texas," claimed that he was killed while being robbed of a large royalty cash payment by a guide escorting him to Union Station to catch a train home to Texas. Paramount Records paid for the return of his body to Texas by train, accompanied by pianist Will Ezell. Jefferson was buried at Wortham Negro Cemetery (later Wortham Black Cemetery). Far from his grave being kept clean, it was unmarked until 1967, when a Texas Historical Marker was erected in the general area of his plot, the precise location being unknown. By 1996, the cemetery and marker were in poor condition, but a new granite headstone was erected in 1997. In 2007, the cemetery's name was changed to Blind Lemon Memorial Cemetery and his gravesite is kept clean by a cemetery committee in Wortham, Texas.[citation needed]
[edit] Discography and awards
See also: Blind Lemon Jefferson discography

Jefferson had an intricate and fast style of guitar playing and a particularly high-pitched voice. He was a founder of the Texas blues sound and an important influence on other blues singers and guitarists, including Lead Belly and Lightnin' Hopkins. The white North Carolina performer Arthel "Doc" Watson credited listening to Jefferson's recordings as his first exposure to the blues, which would powerfully influence his own style.

He was the author of many tunes covered by later musicians, including the classic "See That My Grave Is Kept Clean". Another of his tunes, "Matchbox Blues", was recorded more than 30 years later by The Beatles, albeit in a rockabilly version credited to Carl Perkins, who himself did not credit Jefferson on his 1955 recording. Given this influence, it is unfortunate that many of the details of his life remain shrouded in mystery, perhaps forever; even the only known picture of him, shown here, is heavily retouched, with a fake tie painted in by hand. However, at the time, "race music" and its white cousin, "hillbilly music", were not considered to be worthy of consideration as art, rather as a low-cost product to be sold and soon forgotten.

    * Blind Lemon Jefferson is the featured musician on a State of Texas license plate.
    * B. B. King has always maintained that Jefferson was a huge influence on his singing and guitar playing.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame listed one song by Blind Lemon Jefferson of the 500 songs that shaped rock and roll.[15]


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 02:08 PM

Tunesmith, read what I posted above. I don't care what anyone else thought or thinks of RJ or Leadbelly or anyone else.

That was MY opinion. I am not here to convince anyone to it, nor am I interested in arguing.

I asked who YOU thought was over-rated. If you don't like the idea of a thread like this, then ignore it. If you don't like my opinion, fine. Offer your own, or not.

But seriously, stop attacking me or anyone else who has an opinion that you don't like.

Makes me think there's people out there who just HAVE to have heroes who are somehow "untouchable". Somehow, there HAS to be some "mojo", some thing that makes them special...

that's not folk at all... that's the antithesis of folk as clearly demonstrated as I have ever seen it.

Funny thing... I listen to Robert AND Leadbelly... I perform their songs in concert at times and have for years.

All I said was that the "legend" thing was over-blown, unnecessary and misapplied when it came to those two men, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION.

George Formby... now, THERE'S a legend. Have at it.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM

Son House thought that Robert Johnson was very great guitarist! Nuff said! Or if that isn't enough for you, so did Muddy Waters, Eric Clapton, Buddy Guy etc.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:26 AM

It is always a little dangerous to go after others legends. For instance, I was pilloried a bit because I mentioned once that I thought Jimmie Rodgers was not a particularly great yodeler and that Robert Johnson was not a fabulous guitarist. Those were opinions for which I was hammered, called names,and reviled. Jimmie and Robert weren't particularly great as either a guitarist or a yodeler, they were pretty good and I stand by that. There were at the the time better. They were pretty good and played some new stuff that was unique to a large extent.

But that isn't what make them legendary. What makes them legendary is how their individual take on music effected the course of things musically and the musicians that followed.

Don


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 08:09 AM

Massively stupid thread.

Robert Johnson invented it. End of story. Sure, he didn't come from nowhere - nothing does. But that doesn't mean he isn't in all likelihood the most 'sui generis' guitarist ever. I've never heard a guitarist with such uncanny and precise separation between melody and harmony, between bass part and lead part. This aspect of his playing invented the rock'n'roll band.

If you can't hear that, well, I just don't think you can claim to be hearing music with any kind of discernment.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

Q - I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord.
'nuff said


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 03:37 AM

I think most modern music fans - raised in the "rock era" - would relate to Robert Johnson's - and Leadbelly's - music more than Blind Blake's is because their music ( i.e. Johnson's and Leadbelly's ) is more intense and, indeed, was a lot more of a inspiration for modern rock musicians.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:56 AM

It's always an ego boost to piss on something other people really like, isn't it? And the more people like it, the bigger the ego boost. That's why I love threads like this. It helps us all feel better about ourselves, and in these days of ubiquitous declining self confidence, that's a real public service.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 01:54 AM

"I do not believe here here is right. mg"

Yes, good point. I was sure it was the other way around for ages after reading something about it.. But it seems I've been wrong!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 11:44 PM

In regards to Little David, to some, he is over rated, to others not even rated enough....like I said, "It's not a matter of 'taste' but of perception deficit disorder!"....Goliath and the Philistines underrated him, and look at where it got them!......

...........and 4000 some odd years later, we're still talking about him!.........Critics!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:57 PM

The beatles are way over-rated. At least I think so.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:55 PM

Well, that's what they say it means, anyway. But. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:49 PM

He sang no goodnight song for Goliath.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:56 PM

It means he knew how to handle his sling shot, Joe. I would have thought you'd have learned that at the Seminary.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:52 PM

According to Oxford it's "hear hear", no mention of "here here".


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:51 PM

I always thought that was one of the more suggestive lines in music:
    Little David was small but...oh my!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:41 PM

He was small but...oh my! He slew big Goliath, and so on...


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM

Songs by "Little David": Psalm 1, Psalm 2, Psalm 3....
(At least that's how the legend goes).


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

For what it's worth, it definitely is "Here here!", and not "Hear hear."
But for some reason most people get it wrong and the other way around. Not sure why.

I am unconvinced this is right. I always assumed it to mean a shortening of hear ye year ye..and a quick google search shows several sites saying hear hear is the correct spelling..I don't have time to do an exhaustive search. Perhaps someone can but I do not believe here here is right. mg


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 07:21 PM

Lonesome, I keep hearing about this little David, but no no one can name a single song written by him.
He is definitely over-rated.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:10 PM

I'm Big Dave and I blow harp and I'm definitely over-rated.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:57 PM

Might as well weigh in....First of all, some of the legends named were because of FORM....had the technology of recording been what it is today, back then, the singing and the ear, of how to sing may have been a lot different. Back then, it was mostly just the song form!

Today we have more sophistication in the recording end, but few leaps in innovation, as to form.....(except yours truly, of course)....as far as Ringo, he was/is a lot better drummer than you might think! Just because he doesn't do a bunch of flashy solos or fills, you might think he's not that great, BUT, you could set a clock to him...plus, he made a transition from being left handed, to drumming right handed, and unless....you know the subtle difference in what he was/is doing, and unless you are a drummer, you might not appreciate some of his little nuances.....Knighthood???...well that might be for the revenue brought by the Beatles, who were innovative both to form, and recording techniques!!...not to mention influential in the music, and cultural scene!...I mean to say, along with that, ..How many of us all began playing guitars, as a result of the Beatles' popularity??

Taylor??...Not impressive, especially when he's doing some of Carol Kings songs...but that is just a personal preference. King??..Not too crazy about her voice, but ya' got to cut her slack, for the song mill she worked..during the late 50's and 60's. At that time she was churning out songs, for other 'artists', for the measly price of $25.00 a song...with no residuals or royalties!!! So she later did her own album.....which never knocked me out, but their are some 'considered classics on there.

Other than that, one has to point out, that sometimes its not a matter of 'TASTE'...but rather 'PERCEPTION DEFICIT DISORDER'!!!!!!!

Oh, speaking of which, Dylan??....I thought other people( Byrds Turtles, Peter Paul and Mary, etc etc) doing his stuff was often better, or at least 'easier' to listen to, but a legend?...absolutely!

and the harp player the 'Q' keeps referring to...don't know him, so how much of legend could he be??

Oh well, happy listening!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:15 PM

Leadbelly's "Fannin Street" is a tour-de-force that proves Leadbelly's worth all by itself. And there were so many more.

The unaccompanied side of his Last Sessions, from the night he didn't bring his guitar, is a musical revelation. It proved the depth of the man


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:02 PM

God, Jesus and the ilk.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 04:22 PM

There is a Scots singer/songwriter that I just can not listen to..I had to leave his concert. I thought I just didnt' like his voice for some reason, but then I have heard other people sing his songs..they have what sounds to my ears like a built-in whine..not in terms of words but almost the tunes themselves. They truly hurt my ears. But I don't want to insult him because other people are quite fond of him. mg


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:13 PM

Well, Banjiman, I found myself buying a lot of CDs I've listened to once...or less often than that. I like Spotify very much for exploring music, but don't mind buying music that I'm going to listen to in the car and other locations. I suppose Spotify works well for performers who have tens of thousands of fans, but not for those who appeal to a limited audience.
But Spotify is an excellent place for historic recordings that I'm going to listen to only for research - and for most of them, the performers are long dead.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:07 PM

Joe,

Spotify pays artists almost nothing........ which I guess makes it a good deal for the listener but a crap deal for the artist.

Please don't stop buying recordings or artists will starve!!

Apologies about the thread drift but I've got nothing to add to such a negative thread.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:06 PM

By the way, CS, I would add Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee (both separately and together) to the list you were given earlier.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:05 PM

I think the term "legend" as used in this thread and in other similar contexts is totally meaningless. It strikes me as being in the same category as "celtic music" a term dreamed up by marketing men, originally applied to performers seen as influential but all to often simply popular. It is also now so grossly overused as to be essentially meaningless.

It is much more useful to refer to someone as influential as that tells you more about their importance and I think that Leadbelly was and is influential.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:00 PM

I found the Leadbelly Last Sessions recordings on Spotify, and I'm listening now. I think the sound quality is far better than earlier recordings, and that makes this set a pleasure to listen to.
Having Spotify makes me wonder if I should stop or curtail buying recordings. Spotify doesn't have everything, but it has a whole lot of wonderful music - including what seems to be the entire Folkways catalog. But gee, I'd hate to have this source dry up and deprive me of my Folkways access.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 02:35 PM

Back in the mid-1950's, a friend of mine (non-singer, but an appreciator) got an extraordinary set of records:   Leadbelly's Last Sessions on Folkways. A boxed set. I don't recall how many LPs, but it contained several. Recorded by Leadbelly just a year or two before he died (1949).

Several of us sat around one evening and listened to the whole set. Force of Nature indeed! Leadbelly talked some about his life and experiences and sang a lot! I coveted like crazy, but at the time, I couldn't afford to get a set of my own.

I do sing a few selected songs that Leadbelly sang, but I'm primarily a singer of British and American ballad-type songs. When I attempt a hard-core Leadbelly song, I sound like a bass-baritone version of Richard Dyer-Bennet trying to do the same song, so discretion is the better part of valor. Besides, I can't do blues for s**t, so I don't (although Leadbelly is a whole lot more wide-ranging than simply sticking to blues).

I used to do "Black Girl," and a pretty good job of it, too, or so some people told me. I didn't try to imitate Leadbelly, I just sang it straight out (but I did use Leabbelly's guitar work, especially the bass runs). Then a couple of white acquaintances took me to task for singing it, saying that they didn't think it was appropriated for a white guy like me to sing it and that they found it offensive. Hmmph!! (I had a black friend who used to ask me to sing it!)

On one of the records, Leadbelly expressed an admiration for Gene Autry and proceeded to sing "When It's Springtime in the Rockies," trying to sound as much like Gene Autry as he could. Pretty funny, but a darned good attempt!!

A couple of years ago, I wandered into a used record and CD store and stumbled on a CD boxed set of "Leadbelly's Last Sessions" and instantly reached for my wallet. But I'd already bought a couple of things somewhere else and didn't have enough wampum with me. I came back the following day, but the set was gone. Someone had beat me to it.

But—I just discovered that the set is still available!!    HERE.

Thanks for reminding me!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 02:06 PM

RingoStarr , replaced PETE BEST, as I understand it because he could keep time, Ringo Starr, had a dry turn of wit, it was he who coined the phrase A Hard Days Night
Ringo was an ok drummer much better than Dave Clark., and better than PeteBest, Ithink he was also the peacemaker in the group.
PaulMacartney has written some great songs, Yesterday , ALL MY LOVING, and a few others.
Macartney wrote more than Lennon, but a lot of their best work were joint efforts,so can we stop this childish rubbish, about who was the best.
there were three good writers in the Beatles,Paul John George, assisted musically by George Martin


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:54 PM

Recordings did not become listenable until the 1940s, and even then sound quality often left much to be desired.

What? What? (!) I've just been listening to the Original Dixie Jazz Band playing "Palesteena" - a little rough and ready around the edges in sound quality (1920s), I grant you, but still highly delightful. Think of all the wonderful music you'd miss if you listened to nothing before, say, 1950s...

Actually, some marvellous work was been done by people by John R.T. Davies in England (d. 2004) in sound restoration of jazz classics from old, original 78rpm recordings. But even without the likes of JRTD, I still love old shellac recordings.


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:24 PM

I've linked this thread to a number of other threads covering the "worst" of whatever in music. I don't know exactly how you'd describe this classification. If it's the "best," then it's a superlative. If it's the "worst," is it still a superlative - or is it a negative superlative.
Anyhow, I've found in my nearly 14 years at Mudcat, that threads on superlatives don't usually work very well, since it's all mostly a matter of pure opinion, not information. So, then they end up being squabbles.
That being said, I have to say that I don't really listen to Leadbelly or Robert Johnson for pleasure, although I agree that they made significant contributions to folk music. But their recordings grate my ears, as do most old recordings. Recordings did not become listenable until the 1940s, and even then sound quality often left much to be desired.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:23 PM

A recent Times leader wondered why Ringo Starr hadn't got a knighthood. Ringo Starr?!!? I could hardly believe my eyes. I have thought for 47 years that he was, & is, the luckiest man in the world: to have happened to be the at-the-time drummer {& not a particularly talented one as that,...

I read a quote somewhere, to the effect that the Beatles were dying off in inverse order of their musical talent, and, therefore, Ringo might live forever.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM

damn it, Q, stop goin on about Dave and his Harp!


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Subject: RE: Who's THE most over-rated 'legend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 12:58 PM

Little David and his harp.


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