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Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK

Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 04:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 10 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 04:44 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Jun 10 - 04:45 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 04:56 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 04:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 10 - 05:07 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jun 10 - 05:23 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Jun 10 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Ian Hendrie 16 Jun 10 - 05:25 AM
Geoff the Duck 16 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 10 - 05:51 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 10 - 06:10 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 06:11 AM
Amergin 16 Jun 10 - 06:18 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM
Amergin 16 Jun 10 - 06:27 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM
bubblyrat 16 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 07:00 AM
GUEST,Girl Friday 16 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 07:13 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Jun 10 - 07:13 AM
Bernard 16 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 07:19 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 10 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM
Geoff the Duck 16 Jun 10 - 08:04 AM
Arthur_itus 16 Jun 10 - 08:10 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 10 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 08:14 AM
Bernard 16 Jun 10 - 08:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 10 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 08:32 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Jun 10 - 08:32 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM
Geoff the Duck 16 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Silas 16 Jun 10 - 09:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Jun 10 - 10:10 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 10 - 10:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 10 - 11:32 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM
Leadfingers 16 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM
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Subject: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:31 AM

I have not put this in BS as I consider it to, or could have an impact on all people who drive to folk clubs etc in the UK

Quote
Lower drink-drive limit proposed
By Richard Scott
BBC transport correspondent

A review of the drink-drive limit being published later is expected to recommend that it be nearly halved.

It is expected to say that more than 150 lives a year could be saved by cutting the current limit of 80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood to 50mg.

Combined with the current mandatory 12-month ban, it would give the UK one of the toughest regimes in Europe.

However the review was commissioned by Labour and it is not certain that the new government will adopt its findings.

Unquote

Whatever the decision, wouldn't it be better to just to say 0mg. At least 0mg sends a clear message out to all drivers.

Whilst drivers are allowed to have a drink no matter how small, there is always that temptation.

What think ye folkies?
    Sorry. No music information in the first umpteen posts in the thread - it's a non-music thread, and has been moved to the non-music section.
    -Joe Offer-
.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:39 AM

Won't make much odds to me. If I am driving to the folk club I will have 1.5 pints of standard beer - 3 units of alcohol over the course of 3 hours. If I need to cut that down to a pint, half a pint or even none it will not detract from the enjoyment of the music and company.

DeG


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:44 AM

Why should anyone have a problem with this?


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:45 AM

Won't affect me at all - completely teetotal for the past five years.

And it won't affect the piss-heads either, the ones who break the rules now will still break them if the limit's lowered - they don't care.

The only ones who will be affected are those who obey the rules already, and who will continue to do so.

It's not so much a lower limit that's needed, it's more coppers enforcing obedience of the existing limit.

But I agree, the only safe amount to drink when driving is....none.

IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:56 AM

I agree there David, the music and enjoyment is Primary.

I like this article

http://brackenworld.blogspot.com/2010/06/50mgl-blood-alcohol.html


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:59 AM

Just to say that the last article I posted, does not mean I agree with it.

Would a 0mg law, give an excuse for people not to go to work the next morning, in case they get nicked.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:07 AM

he only safe amount to drink when driving is....none.

And to only drive when you are in perfect health? And not distracted by emotional issues? And not under pressure from work?

I understand the sentiment but to single out alcohol as the only cause of driving impairment just comes across as wrong to me. Given that the introduction and dispersal of alcohol to and from the system is very quantifyable (see this article) I think some leeway can be built in.

For any of the other issues I mention, and many more, there is no way to quantify it the effects and I feel, therefore, that people are just taking the easy option of blaming alcohol. Doing this masks the real problem that some people should just not be driving whether thay have had a drink or not!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:23 AM

Bloody stupid. Are you incapable after two pints? I don't believe a word of it.

I know of one person who was stopped ONLY because one of his brake lights was dimmer than the other - but he was nearly three times the limit. The police freely admitted that there was nothing wrong with his driving, and while he was at the police station his conduct, speech, co-ordination, judgment, and social habits were perfectly normal.

It is my impresson that driving skills and habits have deteriorated to a major extent over the past 40 years: tailgating, drifting on crowded roundabouts, overtaking on the inside and pushing out, queuing and road priority failures - mostly by the "duff-duff" brigade.


Irrational drink driving and speed limits encourage disrespect for laws that are necessary appropriate and proportionate. Bad law undermines good law.

For my part, this reduction if adopted will pretty definitely reduce the amount I go to single evening events. Instead I shall focus more on events where I can camp and leave the following afternoon.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:25 AM

I agree about the other factors Dave, but health, emotional distractions and work-related stress are very difficult to detect and quantify. Alcohol, however, is simple to detect and quantify, and it's effects are well-recognised, so it seems to make sense to deal with it (even though the other issues you mention can't be dealt with so easily).

One has to start somewhere, does one not?

My comment "the only safe amount to drink when driving is....none" isn't an indication that I believe the legal limit should be 0 mg/ml - that would in itself create problems around detection and quantification (e.g. where someone had taken medication containing small quantities of alcohol). It was simply my own view and was my practice when I was a consumer of alcoholic beverages. Nobody liked a few beers more than I did but, when I was driving, it was strictly no booze for me.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Ian Hendrie
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:25 AM

"It's not so much a lower limit that's needed, it's more coppers enforcing obedience of the existing limit."

I agree with Backwoodsman, and while they're at it they should be catching those idiots driving with mobile phones in their hand. There are so many doing this that placing a few policemen alongside main roads could be a self-financing proposition. It could even make a profit.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM

Usually the justification for "reducing the current limit" whether it is alcohol, or speed of cars, is that someone at several times the current limit killed a person. The people interviewed on telly are always someone whose family was devastated by an excessively drunken or speeding driver. It is never due to the actual current safe limit causing a problem.
I have never seen any rational argument to explain that if a speed limit is reduced from 30mph to 20mph that it would suddenly make the people who drive drunk and incapable at 60pmh along that road change their behaviour. They do not go out with the principle "I will drive at exactly TWICE the posted limit, so if the limit is 20 I will reduce my usual 60mph down to 40mph". It doesn't work like that. An irresponsible idiot will drive dangerously whatever the legal limit.
I can see good reasons for dynamically changing speed limits in specific locations at certain times - 30mph to 20 near a school when kids are arriving or leaving, but not permanently fixed, so someone would break the law driving at 30mph at midnight during school holidays.
Anyone who tries to speak sense is shouted down with the accusation that they want to encourage the idiots by keeping existing limits, and that they are in some way condoning the behaviour of the people responsible for deaths due to inexcusable behaviour. They ignore that the reason these people have killed is that they completely ignored the existing limits, and if they had stayed within them, there would not have been a fatal accident.
Just remember that someone suffering from a head cold can have considerably slower reaction time than someone driving within current UK legal limits for blood alcohol. Tiredness can also kill, even at slow speeds, as the driver asleep at a wheel has no control at all.
In all I personally do not see any reason that current limits should be altered at all.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:51 AM

Nobody liked a few beers more than I did but, when I was driving, it was strictly no booze for me.

I would guess then, BWM, that after 'a few beers' you did not drive until after, say, 2pm the following day? Refering to the chart in the link I gave earlier if your BAC was .24 - Three times the legal driving limit - it would be 15 hours before you had no alcohol in your body! No criticism intended if you did but the point is that the 'no booze' rule is not as easy as it sounds!

I don't have any answers either but surely a 'fit to drive' test would be a much fairer arbiter than simply measuring alcohol wouldn't it?

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM

We have succeeded in reducing drink-drive casualties significantly in this country whilst keeping the 80mg limit. Making drink-driving socially unacceptable is by far the best way forward. We don't want to scare law-abiding people who like a few pints into thinking they daren't drive to work the next day. That would be repressive. One of the "beauties" of the limit is that no-one really knows how much they can drink before they get there. I haven't a clue, but I imagine it would be different on different days. If I go to a session and I'm driving it's two quick pints for me (nothing over 4%) then nothing for three hours before setting off home. I operate on the assumption that there's a game chance I'll be well below the limit. I know I'm compromising but, as has been pointed out above, I'm compromising when I drive tired, drive after a row, drive when I'm late, drove when the kids distracted me, drive whilst unwrapping Werthers' Originals, drive whilst changing a CD. Most of the death crashes round here seem to be caused by inexperienced young men driving fast cars. There are plenty of things we could do to get the death statistics down that we tend to ignore. We let people drive for life after passing a simple test and we put no pressure on people to improve their driving once they've passed. We assume that they will remain physically and mentally fit to drive for the rest of their lives. That's just scandalous.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM

"Just remember that someone suffering from a head cold can have considerably slower reaction time than someone driving within current UK legal limits for blood alcohol"

You're probably right Geoff, but there's no evidence that a head cold increases the sufferer's propensity towards reckless and unlawful behaviour, whereas there's plenty of uncontestable evidence that alcohol does (Don't believe me? Take a walk around your local town-centre pubbing/clubbing area at midnight on Friday or Saturday night).

But I agree, the limit's probably OK as it stands - it's enforcement that's required, take the "I'm a better driver when I've had a few pints" nutcase-brigade off the road.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:02 AM

Well, if you really can't go out for a night and enjoy yourself without having a drink, then your problems are a bit more serious than you probably realise.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:10 AM

That's way too polarised, Silas, and you know it!


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:11 AM

Are, the Americans, think this is BS. However, I do not agree. This affects all mudcatters that reside in the UK. Maybe Obama moved it below.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:18 AM

That's an asinine statement, Arthur-itus. This is a nonmusic thread....that's why it was moved below. Any amount of booze can lower your reaction time while driving, or doing anything else. If you are drinking you're best off taking a cab home, riding with one of your mates, or just putting one foot in front of the other and walking home.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM

The purpose of this thread Amergin, was to discuss the issue with mudcatters in the UK, who go to Folk Clubs, Folk festivals or anywhere else wher they get their music fix and it affects.

That is why I diodn't put it in BS. Many mudcatters do not look at the BS section.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM

Sorry correction

The purpose of this thread Amergin, was to discuss the issue with mudcatters in the UK, who go to Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals or anywhere else where they get their music fix.

That is why I didn't put it in BS. Many mudcatters do not look at the BS section.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:27 AM

Oh, ok. I understand you're point, now. My apologies.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM

No Problem Amergin.

Is it now possible that some kindly elf, would put this back in the top section please.
    No. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM

I believe that they have had some quite Draconian alcohol laws in Scandinavia for some time now, and that the 0mg rules there apply not only to cars,but to boats and horse-drawn vehicles !!There has been talk recently of having an alcohol ban for pleasure-boaters on the Thames and other British waterways, but who the hell is going to enforce such a rule ??
       I am,however,in favour of some sort of re-think on our existing drink-drive rules & regs ; The main problem with our existing limit is that is easy not to drink at all, whereas ,after one drink,one is more likely to have a second,and after a second drink,one is quite likely to have another,and after that,one is VERY likely to have another !! That is the nature of alcohol,and its effects on people----not ALL people,perhaps,but certainly enough for it to be a problem. So if a 0mg limit saved just ONE life,it would be worth it IMHO.
    Incidentally, I have only failed a breathalyser once, and that was all legal & above board, in the course of studying for my Certificate of Professional Competence in National Road-Haulage Operations !!
Now then ....what's the time ?? Sun's over the yardarm, so--Nunc Est Bibendum !!


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:00 AM

No Steve, I am quite serious. If you really can't go out without a drink, you really do have a problem.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Girl Friday
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM

Well, it's been announced this morning that the permitted level of alcohol is to fall to almost half the current amount. Rural Folk Clubs and sessions won't survive this unless us folkies change our habits. Already pubs are suffering from lack of alcohol sales, and many have gone to the wall. If we can be persuaded to change our drinking habits, the clubs might survive. As it stands, everyone suffers because of the few stupid drink drivers.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:13 AM

If pubs could supply good quality coffee at reasonable prices, as they do in France, Italy, Belgium etc then I think that would solve much of the problem. There is not much of an 'adult' alternative to beer in most pubs, coke and lemonade don't cut it with many people and 'Low alcohol' beers are shite.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:13 AM

Hand held phone users are a widespread menace. Surely phone companies could arrange to build in detection of a handsfree device, and by checking the speed at which the phone tranferred from cell to cell cut off a rapidly travelling phone that was not on such a device.

Drivers who are not capable of driving safely need stopping - and I live near the A228 which has one of the worst accident records in the UK, partly thanks to "Superbike" magazine that described it as "the best bike test track in the country", partly thanks to tired truckers going to and from Thamesport (a lot of whom lie down for a rest on some of the bends) but largely due to young and incompetent loonies who seem to be able to put souped up Novas upside down and backwards into the ditch on a straight piece of road where I used to be able to get the Volvos over 100 before the cameras went in.   I saw one fifteen feet up a tree once, when the road used to go by the Windmill public house.

Not all young drivers are incapable. I know some who rag it vigorously but are really very safe.

Some of the dangerous drivers are under the influence (I was once behind one doing 20 mph on a dual carriageway bit of the A228 near Angel Farm and I was too scared to overtake him because he was using both lanes wholly unpredictably) - but not many, afaik, although I knew of a couple of lads who would drive after 20 pints.

The vital factor IMHO is not to get the people who have had two or three pints, but those who have had eight or ten. That will not be helped by lowering the limit. Indeed I suspect that a limit so far out of touch with usual expectations will encourage those who will feel they might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

As I see it, it's just another money-generating excercise... the nutters who drink too much and cause accidents will continue to do so despite any legislation, but more people are likely to fail the breath test than before.

Random roadside breath tests may be the way to go, as the current legislation only allows a breath test to be conducted if the officer has reason to believe a driver has been drinking, after an accident, or if a moving traffic offence has been committed. If a driver knew they were likely to be stopped near to the watering hole they were visiting, they just may be less inclined to drink as much, but then again, maybe not.

What about those people who have been convicted of drink-driving more than once? Should they even be allowed to have a driving licence? Fines and prison sentences are all very well, but these people should not be driving. Period.

The proposed legislation won't affect me, because (if I have a drink, which I often do not) I limit myself to one pint of beer over the whole evening, the effects of which have worn off long before I am likely to drive again. It's generally accepted that a unit of alcohol (roughly half a pint) dissipates in under two hours, some even claim one hour. My source for this information was a dietary leaflet I was given when I was diagnosed as type two diabetic, though there are plenty of sources on the web giving similar information.

Yes, I know people sometimes fail breath tests the following morning, but these are people who've drunk fairly heavily on the previous evening and really should know better. I've not heard of anyone who truthfully claimed to have had three pints before midnight and failed a breath test the following day!

What gives me far more cause for concern... I see people smoking whilst driving, and I've lost count of the number I see swerve whilst trying to light up and negotiate a roundabout, for example... and there are those who continue to use their car as an office, juggling with a mobile phone whilst overtaking on the motorway despite legislation. Some of them even think it's okay to send text messages... which actually causes you to take your eyes off the road... fiddling with a SatNav or even a laptop, too... just as dangerous as drink-driving, in the opinion of many - if not more so.

The 'holier than thou' hypocrasy of some people regarding drink-driving... they will pontificate about driving under the influence, but believe they are safe whilst smoking/texting/phoning/SatNavving (have I invented a new word?!).

No, I don't condone drink-driving, and accept a lot of the arguments suggested above, but lowering the legal limit isn't really going to prevent accidents, it's only wishful thinking to believe it could. When the breathalyser was first introduced there was a significant reduction in accidents for a brief period (some may say that alone justified its introduction), but it was only temporary. People started to believe they could beat the breathalyser... in some ways more dangerous.

Unless the morons who believe they can drink all night and still drive safely come to their senses, no amount of legislation will stop them killing innocent people.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:19 AM

Good point Girl Friday.

However, may I also suggest that the publican makes a better effort of providing soft drinks that are appealing.

As an example

http://www.cocktail.uk.com/db/viewAllCocktails.asp?type=4

and

Better quality Coffee and Tea.

From my understanding, they make more money on soft drinks.

Dutch Cafe's are very good examples of how alcohol and soft drinks are equally important.

Traditionally (for me) a Uk pub is for drinking alcohol and that has never seemed to change.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:42 AM

"No Steve, I am quite serious. If you really can't go out without a drink, you really do have a problem."

So all those of us who much prefer to drink whilst socialising are alcoholics then. Come off it!


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM

No. I like a drink as much as the next person, 31 years ago I was done for drink driving £500 fine and two year ban (£500 was a LOT of money then. If you won't go to a 'do' because you will not be able to have a drink then yes, you have a problem.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:04 AM

I see the usual red herrings have turned up - accusations of the form :-
"If you can't go out and not drink - there is something wrong with you!"
and
"If you have one drink, then you will automatically have two/three/four/get paralytic..."

The second of these is presumably a description of serious addiction and anyway irrelevant to the legal alcohol limit, as such a person would be automatically well above it. Nobody here is arguing that drunks should be behind the wheel. We are saying that there is a point below which you are not drunk, and the current limit sets that at a fairly sensible level which we seen no justification for altering.

The first comment is simply insulting.
I live in a country which legally allows me to drive a car as long as I restrict alcohol consumed to a safe level. That in itself means that it is legal for me to have a drink which does not take me above that legal amount. If I go in a pub, I can have a glass of beer, or not. That is my choice as long as I stay legal.
I drink good real beer in a pub because it has a flavour which I enjoy and I can find it in a friendly place. I do not go there just to pour alcohol down my throat. The only places I can drink the beers I like, are ones which serve them fresh from a barrel, bottled beers do not taste the same. Once again, I will remind you that this is perfectly legal when driving as long as you remain within the official limit.

Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:10 AM

>>The first comment is simply insulting<<

Which one is that then Quack?


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:10 AM

I second that quack.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:14 AM

Insulting? Hardly. If you have alcohol dependancy problems, it is better to face them head on and do something about it than to hide behind mock outrage.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Bernard
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:14 AM

Come on, be quack!


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:21 AM

I think wires may be crossed here. I don't think anyone is suggesting that people who drive to the pub and stay in safe limits have an alcohol dependency problem nor does anyone seem to be saying that they cannot have a good time without a drink. Watching this argument unfold is like seeing the proverbial blind men trying to describe an elephant by feeling different parts! You are discussing different aspects of the same issue.

Hope this helps

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:32 AM

DeG - the voice of reason.

Reading the thread, I think you have nailed it.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:32 AM

It's a highly dubious logic-construct to suggest that someone who enjoys a couple of pints when they're out at a Folk-event or session "Has a drink problem". 'Enjoying' a drink is not the same thing as 'needing' one, and I'm sure Silas is well aware of that.

But I do question the logic that suggests that Fun isn't quite so much fun without alcohol. I don't drink - not because of choice, or because I'm a clever shit, but because of a serious health issue, I can't drink because it would be too damaging to my well-being. However, I've not noticed, in the five years since I stopped drinking, any degradation to the level of enjoyment I get from concerts, sessions, theatre, sporting events, whatever. In fact it's rather the opposite - I don't have to miss part of the event through having to go out half way though for a piss!

It's a question of acceptance of the status quo - once you've done that, whether the SQ be health-issues precluding booze, or drink-driving laws limiting the amount of booze one can imbibe, it's fine, life's too short to spend it wailing and moaning about a pint of ale.

IMHO. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

I agree with Steve Shaw.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM

No it does not suggest a level of dependency. I have a shower every time before I go out but that does not mean I have some kind of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Having a drink happens to be built into the way I personally choose to socialise. Not having a drink and not sticking headphones on happens to be the way I choose to do the gardening. Kicking off my shoes and putting my feet up on the settee happens to be the way I choose to watch the World Cup. I happen to find that having a drink is pleasantly relaxing and enjoyable and I don't go out to get sloshed. I'd rather do it than not do it. Implicit in your notion of dependency is that alcoholic drinks are intrinsically evil unto themselves, which they are not. There's more than a touch of puritanism in this argument.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

Steve - it isn't puritanism. Nameless Guests throwing insults. It is the usual Trolling.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:37 AM

Err... Nameless guest was actually me, I forgot to sign the 'from' box.

I fail to see just where you think I am throwing insults.

Unlike yourselves, I DO enjoy going out and getting sloshed, I enjoy the experience of being drunk in company. I am not in any way 'holier than thou', but for all that, as far as alcohol is concerned, I can take it or leave it. I would certainly not refuse to go to an event simply because I had to choose between drinking or driving.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

Funnily enough I am just advising a friend on tips to not smoke and suggesting a bit of neuro-linguistic programming. Part of the artice I have sent says that the dependence on smoking is heavily linked to associating smoking with having a good time. Once you understand that link is purely a programmed construct the rest is simple.

How does that have any bearing? Well, it is the same with drinking. Once you begin to associate having a good time with alcohol it does become difficult to do one without the other. If, for instance, you are not having as good a time as you would have hoped your 'program' kicks in and says 'Hey - want a better time? Have a drink!'. Most people who act in this way are neither compulsive addictives or alcoholics - Just suffering from the same false logic as countless others - Including me! It is a struggle to remind myself at times but I have have had both good and bad times when drunk and when sober. One is not a result of the other.

Back to the subject in hand - lower limits will not stop the compulsive, the alcoholic or the criminal. Nor will they help anyone to undo that lifelong program I have described. I think money would be far better spent on education and help for those who simply want to break that cycle - Not just in terms of driving but also in terms of all drink related crime or anti-social behavior.

Enough psycho-babble from me for now anyway...

:D


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:10 AM

Spot-on Dave.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:35 AM

I benefit from your false logic, not suffer from it.


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:32 AM

Hehehe - Glass (of beer) half full or half empty syndrome, Steve? :-)

Good point though. It is a distinct benefit if for anyone who can see that having a good time is influenced more by internal feelings than external factors. One of the external factors being the law of course!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

Indeed cheers!


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM

As there are a HELL of a lot more fatal accidents on the road involving drivers who have NOT been drinking , maybe its actually safer to drive drunk ??


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Subject: RE: Lower drink-drive limit proposed UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM

Typically, vehicles with singe occupancy are between 75% and 85% of traffic.


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