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Help: Personal Songbook question

Bert 12 Aug 99 - 03:49 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 12 Aug 99 - 04:39 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 04:46 PM
Bat Goddess 12 Aug 99 - 04:51 PM
Bert 12 Aug 99 - 05:05 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 05:07 PM
Margo 12 Aug 99 - 05:08 PM
Bob Landry 12 Aug 99 - 05:12 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 05:13 PM
Chet W. 12 Aug 99 - 05:16 PM
Jeri 12 Aug 99 - 05:18 PM
Bert 12 Aug 99 - 05:28 PM
dick greenhaus 12 Aug 99 - 05:31 PM
Tiger 12 Aug 99 - 05:43 PM
Peter T. 12 Aug 99 - 05:48 PM
Jack (who is called Jack) 12 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 06:34 PM
Bill D 12 Aug 99 - 06:36 PM
Mudjack 12 Aug 99 - 06:54 PM
Mudjack 12 Aug 99 - 06:57 PM
Chet W. 12 Aug 99 - 07:22 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 99 - 07:23 PM
Bill D 12 Aug 99 - 07:54 PM
Susan of DT 12 Aug 99 - 08:01 PM
SeanM 12 Aug 99 - 08:14 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 08:59 PM
Allan C. 12 Aug 99 - 09:03 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 99 - 10:14 PM
Bat Goddess 13 Aug 99 - 08:00 AM
Susan of DT 13 Aug 99 - 09:43 AM
Dave Swan 13 Aug 99 - 11:34 AM
Jack (who is called Jack) 13 Aug 99 - 01:03 PM
Allan C. 13 Aug 99 - 04:23 PM
Hasek 13 Aug 99 - 04:29 PM
Dave Swan 13 Aug 99 - 05:51 PM
Dave Swan 13 Aug 99 - 06:49 PM
karen k 14 Aug 99 - 05:13 AM
mountain tyme 14 Aug 99 - 05:46 AM
Tiger 14 Aug 99 - 07:27 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 14 Aug 99 - 07:44 AM
Bill D 14 Aug 99 - 12:37 PM
Tiger 14 Aug 99 - 01:29 PM
Bill D 14 Aug 99 - 04:41 PM
Les B 14 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM
Susan A-R 14 Aug 99 - 10:15 PM
Tiger 15 Aug 99 - 07:10 AM
sail 15 Aug 99 - 08:42 PM
Allan C. 16 Aug 99 - 08:52 AM
KingBrilliant 16 Aug 99 - 09:41 AM
Bert 16 Aug 99 - 01:37 PM
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Subject: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 03:49 PM

I carry around this three ring binder with all the songs that I've stolen. However, it is getting too fat, also the holes tear out of the pages. What I'm looking for is some very thin very strong paper (Mylar?) for the pages.

Has anyone out there solved this problem.

It doesn't matter if it's more expensive as long as it lasts longer.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 04:39 PM

What about those neat-o clear plastic pockets with the three holes along one side that are used in business presentations and by teacher's pets for their snazzy reports? We have them here at Staples and they come in bulk!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 04:46 PM

There are many brands available. Give your local print shop a call. They can probably sell you a small quantity of what you want. If you ask, they'll even 3-hole punch it for you. Be sure you tell them that you want to be able to write on it. I say that because Xerox has something they call Nevertear which is made of stuff which will not accept pencil and regular ball-point ink will smear. You can only write on it with markers. It is probably more expensive than some of the other stuff out there. I will check with a couple of my friends in the business and see if they can jog my memory about one kind of paper in particular I used to use.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 04:51 PM

While you're at your local printer, ask about three hole drilled paper with reinforced edge (along the holes). Your printer/copy shop probably sells it by the ream. Of course, this still bulks up your binder edge -- maybe you need a bigger binder, too.

Linn the Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:05 PM

Animaterra, I tried those pockets but they were too bulky.
Linn the BG, I also tried the reinforced paper, same problem.
Allan, Thanks, I'll take a look at a local print shop or two.

Thanks everyone. Anyone else??

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:07 PM

If you don't have any luck elsewhere, try here


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Margo
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:08 PM

Bert, I'm glad someone has answered your question because I really didn't know what to say.

For my daughter's teaching, we bought a laminating machine. I think we bought a $90.00 machine. The laminating sheets aren't cheap, they're something like $25.00 per hundred sheets. It's expensive up front, BUT if you are interested in something that will last virtually forever, laminating might be good. You can punch holes in the laminated sheets too.

Downside: you'd have to use wet erase markers to make notes to yourself on the music.

Anyway, you can have a sheet or two laminated at a print shop and see how you like it before making such an investment.

Margarita, always hoping to help somehow


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bob Landry
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:12 PM

My solution was to type all the lyrics from my "A" binder into a word processor. I format them in as large a print as possible so I can read them in low light situations where my bi-focals ain't worth a damn. If the paper tears, I just print a new one using standard 15-pound paper. If somebody asks for the lyrics to a song, I'll give them my copy and reprint it when I get home. If your binder is as crammed as mine, make sure you keep a list of the lyrics you give away so you don't forget to replace them.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:13 PM

Here!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Chet W.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:16 PM

Bert, I found it impossible after awhile to keep just one songbook. I have three levels of storage (other than the computer), 1, a filing cabinet, 2, a little paperboard briefcase-looking thing divided into 26 pockets (about $9.00 at Staples) for songs that I'm thinking about working on, and 3, a binder using the 3-hole plastic pockets for songs that I am working on or that I think I need a copy of with me for performing or whatever. There's too many songs for one book!

Chet


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:18 PM

Bert, you can print double-sided if you already haven't, and use the heavier paper.
You can make the type smaller and fit more than one song on a page.
Someone already mentioned getting a bigger binder.
Split up the songs into two volumes.
You can reinforce thin paper with Scotch tape along the edges with the holes - put the tape on before you punch them. I used to do this all the time with stuff falling out of medical records.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:28 PM

Thanks Allan, I'll call them in the morning.

I have a bigger binder but prefer a smaller one. Tried reducing the type but couldn't read it, (like Rise Up Singing)

Of course I have several volumes but like to keep one of stuff I am currently singing.

I'm working on printing on both sides Got about halfway through my book at the moment.

I'm picky aren't I. Keep the suggestions coming guys.

Thanks again, Bert


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:31 PM

Well, Susan of DT has a neat little 3-1/2 pound notebook computer that holds the entire DT and is a lot lighter and easier to carry than her notebooks (which contain many, many fewer songs.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:43 PM

Bob and Chet are on the right trail. I tried the no-tear sheets, and they were great, but kind of expensive, because of of how often I make changes.

I have 4 binders with about 200 sheets each, and I'm updating them, giving them away, all the time. Them I just reprint them.

If you were doing a gig and, heaven forbid, didn't know the words, you could then remove the sheets and stick them into those vinyl sheet protectors in a small binder.

I have software that prints me a 1-column gig sheet of my selected songs, gicing a shorthand title and my chosen key.

.....Tiger


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 05:48 PM

Bert, India paper is the answer, but I have no idea if anyone makes it anymore.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM

This may be a suggestion from left field, but is sounds like the problem is that the punch holes tear out because all the force from turning the page gets applied at the ring hole which isn't that strong, even with reinforcement, especially when the book is over-filled.

Perhaps what you need to do is look into a different kind of binding technique, and drop the 3-ring approach altogther. I don't know what its called, but there's the method that has the row of rectangular holes in the page and a plastic piece with lots of rings threaded in the whole length of the back (Professors notes printed up by Kinko's often come this way). There's also spiral binding. You could even go so far as to have a book made, or a set of them. I'm sure Kinko's or someone at the local library knows who does binding work.

Of course these are more permanent and less amenable to the adding and subtracting of pages as desired.

On the other hand, you could have a more permanently bound and durable 'Core' book of songs, and then use the 3-ring for collecting new songs. After a while you could recompile an updated core book and have rebound.

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:34 PM

Velobind, is the first binding, GBC (spiral) binding are real pains to deal with. Bert, if you re-e-e-aly want 'em spiral bound, ship them to me and I will do it for you. But as Jack (who is called Jack) mentions, either style is probably a lot more permanant than you would want. Velobinding is a solid bitch to deal with and won't lay flat when the book is opened. Spiral binding lays flat, but you pretty much have to have access to a binding machine to add more pages. I think you are on the right track with that specialty paper. By the way, I inserted tabs in my notebooks to help me find my way around. My tabs are currently alphabetical but I am thinking about putting the songs in categories like LULLABYS, CRIMES, PROTESTS, KID SONGS, GIG SHEETS, etc. (something Susan of DT got me to thinking about).


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:36 PM

well,I am not much help for Bert, because I keep a lot of my files 'loose'...(yes..it IS a big mess..*grin*) but I am working on printing and binding them...and since I love having a small, inconspicuous notebook, I am using a little freeware program called WinPrint (WINPRN.exe) it will print your file in standard format, 2 pages to a sheet, or 4 pages to a sheet, using scalable true-type fonts...the type IS small, but I can make out the half-size fine, and can use the ¼ size if I want the page REALLY tiny...(like to slip into a shirt pocket)...my book will be ½ size so it will fit into bags & such I carry around...for those who'd like to look at the program (and CAN read smaller type), it can be found at WINPRN...down at the bottom of the page It was originally published in PC Magazine...written by one of their editors..

Looks like Bert has lots of suggestions that might help HIM...


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Mudjack
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:54 PM

The plastic sheet protectors work best for me, especially when re-sorting or adding songs to the book. To bulky was not a problem, but a blessing in that it caused me to size down my song book(s). It also allows me to have three books, I have yet to need to take all three with me. They are catagorized by style and usually manage reguardless which I take with me.One of the books is my original hand written selections I hav'nt yet put into the PC.
For my preference, I like having three smaller books than carrying a giant. The whole of it is, I'm more organized now than ever in the past.The age of computers has been the largest contributing factor. It's nice to see how we all manage our little lives with sharing information of great importance. We all seem to agree how important our song libraries are.
Mudjack


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Mudjack
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 06:57 PM

Bert,
We don't steal songs.......We promote songs......
Mj


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Chet W.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 07:22 PM

Seriously, I'd be careful about taking such things to Kinko's for binding unless you know somebody there. Around here they seem to be the most intolerant copyright watchers of them all.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 07:23 PM

I put my songs on the computer, in the WP program; then I choose to have 2 columns, when I go to print, I choose "landscape" which will print 11" X 8", or horizontal. That way I get two songs to a page, cut it in half with the paper cutter, and can carry them around, with holes punched, in a handy-sized 7" X 9" 3 ring binder. Also, I know they are a pain in the arse, but have you tried putting those little, gummy, hole-reinforcers on the punched holes? They really do help.

Let us know what you find about about papers, okay?

luvya,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 07:54 PM

Kat...that is essentially what I am doing with the freeware thing..yours is probably more efficient, but I don't use a major WP...


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Susan of DT
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 08:01 PM

I have been thru just about all of these ways since I started compiling songs in 1967 and the Digital Tradition became the answer for the large collection. I started with small spiral bound books and filled three of them and then the covers started coming off. At the same time I was in a few groups that sent monthly songsheets in their newsletters, so I started a 3 ring binder with songsheets, photocopies, and few typed (before the days of computers). Then I tried reinforcements on the pages. Then I tried plastic sheet protectors.

And then I saw Dennis Cook's 3 ring binder that was all full of computer generated pages and immediately saw that that was the answer. Dick did some thinking and programming and the Digital Tradition was born. I still have a problem with the songs I want to carry with me to sings. At some point this was a 3 ring binder and, like Bob Landry above, would give out the copy of the song to anyone who wanted it and note to reprint the page. I am not convinced that it is acceptable to sing from a computer. My current tiny subnotebook computer has a rotten battery, so I cannot really use it unplugged. In 1993 I printed out a subset of the DT to carry around and in 1995 I printed out all of our versions of Child ballads. I put these into docubind spiral combs, but the combs disintegrate after a while and the covers fray at the combs. But now that there are almost 8000 songs to review to select a subset I want to sing, I have put off the job of selecting the songs to print for a couple of years.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 08:14 PM

If you do want to keep the original format, there used to be (and probably still are) little plastic discs that can be put on the paper as a reinforcement (they surround the hole). This will take *just* this side of forever to get done, and are a temporary fix at best...

I personally support the idea of going to multiple volumes. Another thing that I do is keep them all on my computer, with multiple back up copies on disc.

In any case, multiple volumes might be the way to go. I'm moderately anal retentive and have not only split the volume, but have it on disc alphebetized with a table of contents...

Good luck.

M


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 08:59 PM

Chet W., you'd be on your toes too if you had shucked out over two hundred thousand (not including court fees, etc.) on a lawsuit like Kinko's did in 1988. All of us in the copy and print business are pretty wary about the copyright issues.

SeanM, those little reinforcement discs (at least all I ever used) become unglued after a few months or even less if exposed to a lot of humidity. Also, they add considerable thickness to the stuff you are binding in the very place that you would want to reduce it.

As to suggestions having to do with actually using a notebook while performing - personally, I am aghast at the very notion! I would never (unless inebriated) attempt to perform a song that I didn't know SOLID. Admittedly, I use some small memory-jogging notes taped to my guitar. But, generally when I screw up a song, it is beyond redemption and I usually think of something else to do.

Besides, even having the sheet music sitting right in front of me appears to do me no good at all. I sang "Evergreen" at a wedding once and created two rather novel verses toward the end of the song. I had looked up at the bride and groom at a poignant part of the song and when I looked back at the music, I could not find my place. So what else is there to do? I faked it. Only the diehard Streisland fans noticed anything was amiss. (Unfortunately, one happened to be my wife at that time who did her best [for YEARS!] to help me to remember this incident in vivid detail.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 09:03 PM

Spelling correction. I meant Streisand (as in Barbara), not Streisland.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 99 - 10:14 PM

Well, as one of those who enjoys singing very much, doen't do it professionally, and hasn't a lot of time to put into memorising, I use a book to sing from and make no apologies. Some of us are come late to this genre, having learned others along the way or in foolish youth embracing such things as rock and roll!**BG**

Maybe with more practise and somewhere to actually get together with people and sing, I'd feel differently. Ah....life on the Lone Prairie.

katlaughing&piningaway


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 08:00 AM

The plastic comb binding (where pages can be replaced) is GBC.

I have all my versions/transcriptions of songs that I do, wish I did, think I might want to do, etc. in electronic version and archive these printouts in 3-ring binders. I have a separate folder for stuff I'm working on, and sometimes (often) run out songs to learn or refresh my memory of at work in between jobs. (My boss didn't hear me say that, did he? The people at work seem to cope well with my singing odd songs at strange times.)

Ah well, it's Friday and there's a session and a black and tan in my future at The Press Room.

Linn the Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Susan of DT
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 09:43 AM

All you guys with songbooks - if any of your songs are not in the DT, PLEASE send them in. You can post them or e-mail them to us (ASCII text is fine).
digitrad@world.std.com or digitrad2@sprintmail.com


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Dave Swan
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 11:34 AM

Bert, A low-tech answer is biology paper, which is easy to find and fairly inexpensive. Available in three hole punch 8 1/2 x 11, its holes last forever and the corners resist becoming dogeared. Some laser printers will accept it if fed a page at a time. I've been using it since college to mount pages of smaller format or lighter weight. To mount a double sided copy, cut a window in the biology paper the size of the copy, minus the margins. Line up copy and biology paper, affix with mending tape (the kind you can write on) taping both sides of the biology paper, have a beer, repeat as needed. I've never had this system fail. There's some small satisfaction out of mounting things this way. No batteries to fail, and a durable result. But then I still make book covers out of grocery bags. Cheers, Dave


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Jack (who is called Jack)
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 01:03 PM

One word of warning about plastic page holders. Somtimes photocopy or other low quality printed materiel bleeds or rubs off onto the interior plastic. Then, unless the same page is put back in at exactly the same alignment the sheet becomes impossible to read.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 04:23 PM

I had always wondered what I could do with all my old biology papers;-)

But seriously, where do you get your supply? I work with paper in a big way every single day and have never heard mention of biology paper - but from what you describe, I would like to learn more! - especially before I re-do my notebook tabs.


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Subject: Lyr & Chrd. Req./Hillcrest Mine/J.Keelahan
From: Hasek
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 04:29 PM

Might someone have the Lyrics and Chords to : Hillcrest Mine by James Keelahan. This song is found on his Small Rebellions CD. Thank you !


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Dave Swan
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 05:51 PM

Allan,

I've found biology paper sold under that name in local stationers, a large chain drug store, and at a college bookstore. I haven't looked for any recently, as I bought a ream last time I needed it. I think it's meant for mounting dried specimens or reagent paper. I'll sniff around and see if I can find any. Cheers, D.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Dave Swan
Date: 13 Aug 99 - 06:49 PM

Allan,

Ah-HAH, I had a great time tracking this down. Didn't find biology paper(of which I bought a case last time, not a ream) but, thinking of alternatives it occured to me that braille paper is even a little better. Couldn't get any of my blind relatives on the phone, but found www.sightconnection.com on the web. Heavy duty braille paper should do the job really well. Cheers, D.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: karen k
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 05:13 AM

Interesting thread. Lots of good suggestions. I have always used index cards (6"x 9" I think) and these have always worked well. I hardly ever have to replace one because the holes rip, unless the notebook gets too full. Keep the ideas coming.
karen k


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: mountain tyme
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 05:46 AM

I puter print or hand print on Hammerhill 20-50 # bond or K & E Albanene (very durable draftsmans tracing paper, comes in a pad) as large as the length of the lyric requires. I use three ring binders 8 1/2in wide but 5in short. The printed paper is 8 1/2 x 11in. This allows the paper to hang beyond the binder. Each binder holds 20 - 50 songs. Each binder contains a pre-determined set list. I have about 2K songs so I have a lot of binders to choose a set from. By keeping a minimum of sheets in each binder the hole punch tears are rare and can be repaired by using those little paper or plastic stick on A'holes. I hang the binder over the back of the music stand so that the back of the binder is "broken" backwards exposing the binder rings to the max. This makes the pages easy to turn and less prone to tear. During each set I may use several different binders. Also on the music stand is the mount for my Sure 55 gooseneck and a preamp that allows me to control power from the stand on stage. I can then adjust power whenever I reach to turn a page. Breaking the back of the 3-ring binder to expose the rings is the answer to easy no-tear page turning. If the 3-ring binder back begins to break from rebending duct tape rebuilding will reinforce it forever. With magic marker the duct tape can be labeled to identify the contents. This has worked well for me for decades and I can change my choice of set at any time depending on the mood I want to develope. Hope this solves several problems for you entertainers out there.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 07:27 AM

Personally, I don't like it when a performer uses a book - I think it detracts from the relationship with the audience. I want to say....... "If the song is so good, why don't you LEARN it?"

I use my songbooks for study, to collect and learn, and brush up from time to time. Of course, I let others use them to check lyrics (but not while singing), and freely copy or give them away to anyone who's interested.

But we never, EVER, sing from the book.

My $0.02 .........Tiger


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 07:44 AM

Tiger, that's nice, but not everyone has the time or the capacity to memorize all the songs they want. - My .02

Anyway, back to the topic of the question. A friend of mine who is in the business of selling paper has told me there is a kind of paper in a 20# weight which has a reinforced side edge. This paper is suitable for putting through your common inkjet and other printers.

E-mail me and I will pass on his information to those who want or need it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 12:37 PM

Tiger..ah, such a delicate point..we have in our circle those who ALMOST never use books or cheat sheets, those who can't seem to do without them, and those(like me) who sometimes keep a little copy near...just in case...the thing is, we usually have a topic for our sings, to encourage variety and the learning of new songs, but that means, when the topic is "Songs of Dismemberment", someone may discover a wonderful maiden-chopping ballad 5 days before the sing...and just CANT learn it in time..*grin*...so we are reasonably tolerant.

We have, in the past, put notices in the newsletter 'urging' folks to learn and practice their songs before coming, but there are NO 'official' prohibitions against anything. My opinion is, if someone basically knows the tune, and can manage to sing the song without pauses, backups, awkward grasping for meter, etc...then I won't grump TOO loud...but people should remember...singing in/with a group should bring pleasure, not embarassing wrestling with some song you have barely looked at before, just because you want to 'contribute'. We do have a rule, that if you know OF a song you can't really do, you may use your turn to ask for it...and there is often someone there who can sing it just fine. There will NEVER be an easy solution to this situation in a group with mixed experience and talent....and I do know several friends who simply will not attend a sing where everyone is not 'good'. *shrug*...me, I am average, so I am picky, but not adamant.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 01:29 PM

Bill D...

Just to clarify, I was speaking of public performers, not ad hoc leaders at a singing group. I'd certainly give ground there, especially if they were all trying to learn a new song.

But I still balk at the image of one person who 'knows' the song singing to ten others with their heads down, noses in their books.

....Tig


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 04:41 PM

ah, yes...the RUS syndrome...we have had many rounds on THAT here...*smile*...I guess some folks have spent too many years singing from hymnals to ever easily make the change to memorized stuff...it simply becomes a mind-set that the words won't come unless the book is there. *shrug*...no easy answer...


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Les B
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 06:04 PM

On singing from print I have mixed feelings. I don't do it when singing in public, and generally don't like to see it done. Recently, however, we presented Debbie Harry (vocalist of the rock group Blondie), but this time singing jazz with a group called the Jazz Passengers. Just before our concert she had been on a reunion tour with Blondie and had not rehearsed with the Jazz group for some time. When she came on stage she placed her songs on a music stand, and I thought it would be like a stiff school recital. But she put on one helluva show, only checking the printed material with brief glances ! I realized if you can "sell" a song to the audience, it's OK to have a crutch.

On the paper side of song archiving, I keep a master list in huge 3-ring binders (4 inch rings) full of all the songs I'm working on, know, or knew -- in alphabetical order. I'm trying to get them all entered into a computer data base, but the binders will be a hard-copy back up if Y2K rears its ugly head. The rings do indeed tend to "bind" and tear, but so far it's the quickest way to organize bits of 8 X 11 paper.

For set lists, I'm currently experimenting with rolodex cards which have, in large computer type, the song title, key, info about who's taking the break, and sometimes the first word of each line. At a Staples office supply I found a plastic book about 5 X 8 inches which will take rolodex cards and will open up flat with eight cards up at a time. This can be thrown down on the floor by the mics. In a 15 song set, you only have to flip the page once to see your whole set list. It's always reasuring to be able to look a few songs ahead to see when it's capo time, or even to substitute a song. When not in the set book, you can keep the rolodex cards in alphabetical order on a normal rolodex ring, ready to slide into the book in whatever order you want. But nothing beats having a good memory ! Those were the good old days!


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Susan A-R
Date: 14 Aug 99 - 10:15 PM

Speaking of RUS, that's a little spiral bound book that has gotten a lot of wear and tear and is still doing ok. Any special materials? paper weights? size to page turn ratios?

My two three ring binders (a-m, n-z) are chaos. I like these suggestions.

Susan A-R


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Tiger
Date: 15 Aug 99 - 07:10 AM

Some fine points from my own songbook experience, applies to 8-1/2 x 11 sheets in 3-ring binders:

1. Don't let the binders get too big or they'll self-destruct from their own weight. The spine is strained, the rings get askew, and you need an industrial-strength coffee table. Mine are about 200 pages each, and even that is a bit heavy.

2. I use a D-ring binder with the ring mechanism mounted on the back cover, not the spine. Much less strain this way. The flat (right) side of the D-ring allows all pages to rest flat and aligned properly when the book is closed.

3. I have a 3-hole punch that makes oversize holes for easier page turning. For larger batches (I do mine 4 or 5 at a time), there's a deluxe version called a paper drill, probably overkill. IMPORTANT - use a punch with FIXED, not adjustable, punch units and be sure you always align the paper the same way when punching. Otherwise, each batch winds up punched differently and you can't flip pages quickly or in a bunch.

4. ALWAYS use sheet lifters, front and back, to keep the pages away from the ring mechanism and prevent the book from being closed if the pages aren't aligned.

Man,......what a fussbudget.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: sail
Date: 15 Aug 99 - 08:42 PM

Bert and Allan, I am just starting three sets of song books, so this is all very interesting to me. I am trying to limit (at this point) myself to ten catagories of songs. I didn't think of alphabetizing-maybe that would be better! But can anyone come up with ten good catagories that would cover everything? Love, war, happy and/or novelty, Irish, popular 50s & 60s, sea, etc. Thanks, Penny.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Allan C.
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 08:52 AM

Sail, the categories are purely subjective. I might have a category for BADMAN BALLADS but another for songs about MURDERS, whereas you might want to lump them all under songs about HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS. Maybe a look at some published collections such as Lomax could give you some ideas. Also, take a look at the notes at the bottom of the songs posted in the DT. Personally, I really like the idea of categories rather than alphabetical divisions. Alpha ordering becomes quite difficult when you want to keep a couple of different versions of the same song: "There Is A Ship", "The Water Is Wide", "Waly, Waly 2"; you see the problem. Besides, often I can't readily think of the name of the song I seek. Being able to look for it by browsing through LOVE SONGS AND LAMENTS could speed things up a bit.


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 09:41 AM

I use the plastic wallet things, and I find them really easy to re-sort every so often (quite often!). I have been through various forms of categorising but have now decided that alphabetic is going to be easiest (except for the ones I want seperate for a specific reason, eg not yet learnt, or lyrics with no tune/chords or songs with spinning/weaving connections). I don't put them in a folder, I just tie up the plastics by threading wool through the punchholes.Then I put them all into an a4 sized shoulder bag. Eventually I will cross-index them by various categories (maybe). Works so far anyway.

Kris


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Subject: RE: Help: Personal Song Book question
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 99 - 01:37 PM

Thanks for all your suggestions guys. I'm going to see if I can find some biology paper or braille paper.

I've tried those gummed reinforcements (We used to call them 'sticky holes' in school) but they come unstuck and are too bulky.

Tiger, I don't use the book when I'm on stage, but if I'm singing at a circle among friends then it helps with chords for songs I don't sing regularly. With my tin ear I can't sus out what chord I should use before I play it. I can only hear that it was the wrong one when it's too late.

Kris, I used to have a lace up binder at one time that was perfect, but I've never seen one for sale over here. I suppose I could make one.

Thanks again, I'll let you know what I come up with. - Bert.



Sail, I don't think I could categorize my songs, I'd forget which category the were in. Even alphabetized the often turn up more than once in my book.

I keep a travelling book with songs that are in my everyday repertoire and an archive at home of songs I've been meaning to learn or improve.


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