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the uk folkscene and sex changes

The Sandman 21 Apr 10 - 08:26 AM
Morris-ey 21 Apr 10 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 21 Apr 10 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 21 Apr 10 - 08:55 AM
greg stephens 21 Apr 10 - 09:01 AM
Mr Happy 21 Apr 10 - 09:05 AM
Georgiansilver 21 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM
treewind 21 Apr 10 - 09:14 AM
The Sandman 21 Apr 10 - 09:49 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM
The Sandman 21 Apr 10 - 10:07 AM
Leadfingers 21 Apr 10 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,johnp 21 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM
The Sandman 21 Apr 10 - 11:03 AM
Jack Campin 21 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 21 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM
Jeri 21 Apr 10 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Continutiy Jones 21 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM
Ruth Archer 21 Apr 10 - 11:51 AM
Howard Jones 21 Apr 10 - 11:57 AM
Maryrrf 21 Apr 10 - 12:05 PM
BTNG 21 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM
Ralphie 21 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Continuity Jones 21 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 10 - 12:52 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 10 - 12:54 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Apr 10 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,The surgeon's knife 21 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM
Sorcha 21 Apr 10 - 01:33 PM
Leadfingers 21 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM
VirginiaTam 21 Apr 10 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,The surgeon's knife 21 Apr 10 - 02:10 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Apr 10 - 02:12 PM
Ralphie 21 Apr 10 - 02:16 PM
VirginiaTam 21 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Apr 10 - 02:23 PM
catspaw49 21 Apr 10 - 02:30 PM
Mavis Enderby 21 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM
artbrooks 21 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM
The Sandman 21 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Apr 10 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Continuity Jones 21 Apr 10 - 03:22 PM
TheSnail 21 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM
mousethief 21 Apr 10 - 04:09 PM
Joe Offer 21 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM
catspaw49 21 Apr 10 - 05:17 PM
Smokey. 21 Apr 10 - 05:22 PM
frogprince 21 Apr 10 - 06:22 PM
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Subject: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:26 AM

in recent years a few professional male folk performers have had sex changes.
I am curious as to whether their sex change has prejudiced their abilty to get work,as there are a number of uk folk club organisers on this forum ,I wondered what the views of other people were.
logically there should be no reason why folk performers who have had a sex change should not be booked unless[possibly] their voices changed dramatically,but is there a prejudice against sex change folk performers?


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Morris-ey
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:49 AM

Who are these performers?


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:51 AM

Is   there is an emergence of 'Fanny Miles' on the cards?



(Sorry, I'll get my coat now)


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 08:55 AM

Of course there is a conspiracy against sex change male folk singers. There's one about any subject of paranoia you wish to dream up.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:01 AM

I can think of several reasons for allowing this thread to die quietly. Most involving the word privacy.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:05 AM

Ditto!!


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM

I agree with Greta Stevens and Mrs Happy... ditto!   Best wishes... Elizabethansilver!!


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: treewind
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:14 AM

"Is   there is an emergence of 'Fanny Miles' on the cards?"

Looks like a joke, but unless there was some serious intent of that kind (unlikely I should think), The matter is absolutely none of Dick's business, and none of the rest of us either. There are places on the internet for such public prurience, but this ain't one of them.

And what Greg said...

Anahata


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 09:49 AM

I asked a serious question ,is there a prejudice against performers who have had a sex change,that has nothing to do with privacy.
sex changes are part of 21st century life it is something that has happened on the uk folk scene,it is therefore worth discussing,without mentioning names,please note I have not mentioned names,neither do I think it proper that names should be mentioned.
so can we discuss this:
is there a prejudice against performers who have had a sex change ,and does it affect or will it affect their ability to get work.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM

Fanny Hill?


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:07 AM

The mention of privacy is interesting.
if someone has a sex change presumably they feel happier about their new gender,if they perform in public after having a sex change they are presumably happy about letting the public know they have had a sex change,and are now happier about being a woman rather than a man,or vice versa.
So what all this crap about prurience?.
But how does the public perceive the change and does it or will it affect their abilty to draw people into a folk club or festival.
I know these are difficult questions but is there any point in not discussing it,is there any point brushing it under the carpet and pretending it is not happening,bearing in mind that if a person has done this they wish it to be publicly known they have done so.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:33 AM

Dick - IF you know any performer who your question applies to I suggest you contact them direct , THEN and only if they agree , raise the matter here if there IS any such prejudice !


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

If you know of such performers why not ask them in private as to whether they feel they are discriminated against or not. It really seems an odd subject for an online public discussion.
johnp


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:03 AM

an odd subject?
sex changes are part of 21st century life,they are however relatively recent,so like anything that is different,they are going to take quite a time before they are accepted as everyday occurrences.
My original question was adressed to [amongst others] folk club organisers,I agree I was being unduly optimistic in thinking that anyone would answer my question,or that people might read my post carefully.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

I know of one female-to-male sex change singer/songwriter, extremely low-profile both before and after and not trying to make a full-time job of it. Prejudice not very relevant there. I find him just plain boring, but the gender issues have nothing to do with it.

The case Dick may be thinking of is one of the singers in an Irish musical/comedy trio, Fascinating Aida. It was news for a short while (ten years ago?) when it came out that she'd started life as a man. I've never seen them or followed their career in any way, so I've no idea what effect the revelation had. At any rate, they were neither from the UK nor a folk act (on anybody's definition).


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM

Dick, I was told you put on a good evening last Thursday at Maidenhead Folk Club.
I did not ask the person who told me this whether you are male or female, or neither, nor did I ask them if your name really is Dick Miles, or if it's a nickname.
I did however express surprise that you had done so, as judging from some of your posts on this site, I would not personally attend a club to hear you perform.
I would respectfully suggest that I may not be the only person judging you by your on-line persona.
This thread isn't going to swell your audience either.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM

Looks like a joke,

And it was, I thought it was an odd question to ask.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:29 AM

Prejudice thrives in secrecy. If people don't talk about it, it doesn't exist in the 'normal' world and the possibility of outing a person can inspire fear. Obviously, the possibility of discussing controversial subjects can inspire fear, too.

A sex change/gender re-assignment is not something that will go unnoticed, if it does get talked about only in private.

From the number of people announcing how uncomfortable it makes them feel, I'd say the transformation AND those who've gone through it are taboo and folks would rather pretend they didn't exist.

Secrecy/taboos = power.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continutiy Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM

Is the answer 'everything'? As in,

the uk folkscene and sex changes everything


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:51 AM

"From the number of people announcing how uncomfortable it makes them feel, I'd say the transformation AND those who've gone through it are taboo and folks would rather pretend they didn't exist."

I don't think anyone has said it makes them feel uncomfortable. People have said they wish to respect others' privacy. I saw someone's gender reassignment referred to in a CD review recently, and I thought it was crass and unnecessary.

If people who have been through gender reassignment wish to talk about their experiences here, great, but there is danger of such a thread simply becoming the repository for salacious rumour and gossip.

In response to the original post, as an organiser I certainly would not be put off booking anyone because of their sexuality or transgender issues. If anything, I would be very proud to promote someone who has taken such a brave step in order to live their life openly and honestly.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 11:57 AM

I cannot understand the reason behind asking such a question, other than idle curiosity.

If any performers have suffered discrimination because of this, it is very likely unlawful. Even if it is not actually illegal, it is unlikely that any folk club organisers are likely to admit to it in public, and certainly not in this forum since it is probable that most Mudcatters would find such discrimination unacceptable. Anyone else's opinion, apart from the musicians themselves, is simply speculation.

If Dick has good reasons for asking this question, then he should contact those performers privately. If this uncovers evidence of discrimination then that might be a valid subject for discussion. I don't think the question Dick asked is.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Maryrrf
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:05 PM

I know someone involved in folk music who had a sex change. This person didn't make an issue of it, just quietly started back teaching and performing. As the person in question is a very good musician who puts on a great show there were no problems and as far as I can tell no predjudice. This is in the US, but I would imagine it would be the same in the UK. Sex changes have been going on for a long time now (wasn't Christine Jorgensen back in the sixties?) and I'd wager most of us know someone(even if it's a 'friend of a friend of a friend')who has had one. I'd say it would likely be a non issue nowadays after. Personally I agree with Ruth, I'd be proud to promote someone who had the courage to go through with such a drastic life change.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM

other than purient curiousity, like Howard I see no rhyme nor reason for the original question. Jonathan Ross would feel right at home here

BTNG


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ralphie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM

Dick. You are completeley out of order.
Who the Fuck cares.
I once thought you were an OK guy.
I've just changed my mind.
Now do us all a favour and sod off.
Ralph


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:49 PM

Calm down Ralphie. Dick just asked a stupid question in a clumsy manner. If you've read enough of his posts you'll know written English isn't his strong point. You should try to be more forgiving of small errors like that, he clearly didn't mean any harm, was just being a bit thoughtless. If you've never done that you should be grateful and graceful with it.

Or is this brewing into a famous Mudcat witch hunt? Is it witch hunt time again?


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:52 PM

The title of this thread can't but remind me of the old joke about the prize for an essay on The Elephant: to which a Frenchman contributed on the love life of the elephant, and an Englishman wrote of shooting elephants in Africa, and an American wrote of filming the elephant ~~ and an Irishman wrote an essay entitled The Elephant And Partition...

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 12:54 PM

"I'd wager most of us know someone(even if it's a 'friend of a friend of a friend')who has had one."

Really? I must be leading a very sheltered life.

David E.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:14 PM

This thread is destined to run and run!


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,The surgeon's knife
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM

Ignoring the pointlessness of this thread, I'd just like to state that it's physically and biologically impossible to change sex.

Whatever incisions or excisions are made to assist someone to change their gender identity, the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place and long may that remain the case.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:33 PM

And why should I care? It's not something I lose any sleep over.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM

I feel the need to add to the thread , but as it would involve private information I shall keep quiet ! I have already found that an anonymous posting gets me deleted INSTANTLY !!


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:05 PM

cowardly guest surgeon's knife post is a load of bollox...

I doubt that performers who have had gender reassignment would publicly comment on whether or not the change has affected their hire-ability. What would be the point? If it has affected negatively they may think it just looks like they are playing a pity card which would draw unwanted attention. If it had not affected at all why tempt fate by drawing attention.

Sex change is not a problem or issue to my way of thinking. Just doesn't need to be thought about. Deal with the individual and their respective talent.

Now Species change as in Tone Deaf Leopard... that is something to talk about. Be afraid. Be very afraid.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,The surgeon's knife
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:10 PM

I'm not being cowardly at all - just stumbled across this site and don't feel the need to join it, especially when its members include such ignoramuses as Good Soldier Schweik and VirginiaTam who clearly do not understand the fundamental difference between sex and gender.

What I wrote earlier is not a 'load of bollox', but an elucidation of the scientific impossibility of undergoing 'a sex change'.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:12 PM

"the chromosonal determinants that distinguish women from men remain fully in place"

And sometimes those chromosomes are *wrong* in relation to the actual gender of the person, just like other errors that can be common to biology.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Ralphie
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:16 PM

I'm quite calm Mr Jones.
I just find it appalling that such a question should even be posed nowadays.
Who cares about anybodys sexual orientation, and/or gender?
I would have thought that we would be beyond such school boy tittle tattle.
I'm astonished that Dick could even pose such a question, and I find it thoroughly distateful.
Apart from anything else, what has anybodys personal life got to do with their musical creativity?
I think Mr Miles might rue the day that he started this thread.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM

thank you Sister Crow. Xactly what I was thinking when I said "bollox" not to mention the pedantry of surgeon's assertion and implicit bigotry.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:23 PM

"just stumbled across this site"

So, presumably you must have just 'stumbled on this site' while Googling for "sex change" then. Interesting way to discover folk music anyway! Do stay and look around, there are lots of other threads not dedicated to transgender issues!


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:30 PM

""I think Mr Miles might rue the day that he started this thread."


Could be Ralphie......could be.........


Spaw


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:41 PM

"the uk folkscene and sex changes"

It certainly does, but many traditionalists would deny it...


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM

Well, this isn't a topic that I'd initiate, but since it is already on the table... For those of you who know someone (a singer) who has gone through this process, and assuming that he/she included the hormone therapy often involved in a reassignment, did his/her voice sound significantly different/better/worse?


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM

"It certainly does, but many traditionalists would deny it..."

Lol!


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM

In my opinion,the only thing that is important[99.9 percent of the time] is the quality of the music of the performer.
I agree ,if anyone does anything in their private life which is harmless to anyone else it is not of importance.
however, if I knew that someone was for example a paedophile,I would have to admit my views would change.
there seems to be some misunderstanding as usual,I asked a question,I did not state an opinion.
I asked a question,is there a prejudice against performers who have changed sex?
so far only Ruth Archer,has answered .


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 02:59 PM

Pedantically speaking "gender" just means "kind". For example, one gender of musicians is folk musicians.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 03:22 PM

I asked a question,is there a prejudice against performers who have changed sex?

Don't think so dick. I've played with two transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) people that I'm aware of in my time at the crease and there was never any prejudice towards them that I noticed. For the record, one was very good and one was fairly amateur, I don't think the amount of over enthusiastically applied make-up contributed towards either rating.



""I think Mr Miles might rue the day that he started this thread."

Hmm. Isn't Eastenders on? Or Dramarama?


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM

I'm sorry but sex was defined by the United Nations Commission On Sexual Identity (UNCOSI) in 1954. We should not be pushed aside by the redefiners who wish to impose their own definitions on those of us who cling to the traditional values.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: mousethief
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 04:09 PM

Before 1954 there was no sex? I wonder how my mum got here then.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:15 PM

It has to be tough to have a sex change and live in a community of people who are not transgender. Even people who want to be accepting, are bound to say things at times that are hurtful. I slipped and said "yes, sir" to a transgender woman once, and the person got angry at me. I hadn't meant any harm, but I was tired and off my guard. Was it a freudian slip, or what? Whatever the case, I said something unintentionally, and the other person was hurt. I suppose I could be condemned for being insensitive, but I had absolutely no intention do cause the hurt. I liked the person, and tried my best to treat her with respect and in a normal manner. But somehow, I slipped.

I think that if you're a minority in any environment, you need to have a protective attitude and a sense of humor. By a protective attitude, I mean that you need to make yourself less vulnerable by thinking that most people mean you well, so you need to accept what they say as something that's favorable to you - even if it could be taken as inimical. You can't expect people to say everything according to your specifications, or you're going to go through life being disappointed.

If you enter an environment with hostility, you are going to encounter hostility.

Does that make sense?

I see this demonstrated all the time at Mudcat. There are some people who come here expecting hostility, and they invariably encounter it. Other people sail through Mudcat without ever encountering a hostile word. If a transgender person wants to live in the wider world, I think that person needs to provide self-protection, by living without expecting hostility. If you go into an environment with the expectation that most people you encounter are wonderful, you will find that most people will treat you as a wonderful person yourself.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:17 PM

Well mouse, I think its like this...........

See, I was born in 1949 and I suppose my parents had intercourse for that to happen. But my question to you is, can you see your parents having intercourse? It may be difficult but you might be able to do it. On the other hand, how about this?

Man, I can just see the Ol' Man layin' the log to Mom......Whadda' righteous fuckin'....I tell you he was pounding her eyeballs out and Mom was screaming for more so she flipped and took it doggie style til Dad just collapsed.........and then you should have seen her licking his balls........

Can you see that? I think not! Before 1954 there was intercourse but no sex.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: Smokey.
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 05:22 PM

I am curious as to whether their sex change has prejudiced their abilty to get work

Not in the two cases I know, one of whom reported the opposite, initially - morbid curiosity, perhaps.

I'm quite sure it won't affect your popularity in the least, Dick. Follow your dream.


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Subject: RE: the uk folkscene and sex changes
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Apr 10 - 06:22 PM

But what will we call him if he loses the Dick part?


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